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Aviar
07-06-2005, 08:04 PM
What were the main battle tanks for the U.S. and the Germans during this conflict? (Ardennes Dec. 1944 - Jan. 1945)

Aviar

Aviar
07-06-2005, 08:04 PM
What were the main battle tanks for the U.S. and the Germans during this conflict? (Ardennes Dec. 1944 - Jan. 1945)

Aviar

WarWolfe_1
07-06-2005, 08:24 PM
US-Sherman
DE-Panzer 4....? From what I've read A mixture of tanks were used. I saw (beleive I saw atleast) that the germans were using rebuilt T-34's and shermans. Untill they ran out of fuel that is.

Bearcat99
07-06-2005, 08:33 PM
You are correct..

Luftwaffe_109
07-06-2005, 08:39 PM
Germany:
Heavy: PzKpfw VI Tiger
Tiger II Ausf. B "Konigstiger"

Medium: PzKpfw IV
PzKpfw V Panther
PzKpfw III

Assualt Gun: Sturmgeschutz III / IV

Enforcer572005
07-06-2005, 11:58 PM
i think the pz 111s were teh n model, retrofited with the short 75mm howitzer of the early mk 4s.the most common german tank was certainly the assorted versions of the mk4 with the long barrel 75.lots of tank destroyers to. assault guns based on old mkII and 38T chasis.

the shermans were a mix of the older ones (i cant keep track of the suffixes) with the small turret and the pathetic 75mm popgun, and the later ones with the large turret and the excellent high velocity 76mm gun.

also some m3 and m5 stuarts were there, as well as teh m10 tank destroyers, which were actually more effective thatn the early shermans.

ive seen film of german assault guns using sherman chassis, a churchill chassis, some french hochkiss chasis, and even an old matilda chasis. usually with 75mm high velocity guns or captured soviet 76mm guns, often rebored to the german 75s. the germans used a real hodge podge of vehicles.

dont forget the brit forces, as they were in heavy action in other areas of the front. they had shermans also, including the excellent sherman firefly, which was the small turret with a loooong barrelled 17pdr (about 76mm wiht a huge shell casing) and an overhang to take the recoil. that thing could take out a king tiger...might take a couple of hits, but it could. the american version didnt reach the front till too late.

Im sure the brits also had cromwells and churchills.

Aviar
07-07-2005, 04:59 PM
Exactly how would this translate to IL-2? Which models would you use to be as historically accurate as possible?

Again, this is for a Battle of the Bulge scenario using the Ardennes map.

While we're at it, what planes would you use? I have some idea about U.S. planes (although not the exact models), but I've found almost no info about the German planes involved...other than the Me-262.

Aviar

bolillo_loco
07-07-2005, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:
Exactly how would this translate to IL-2? Which models would you use to be as historically accurate as possible?

Again, this is for a Battle of the Bulge scenario using the Ardennes map.

While we're at it, what planes would you use? I have some idea about U.S. planes (although not the exact models), but I've found almost no info about the German planes involved...other than the Me-262.

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

none participated because they didnt capture the much needed american fuel dump at the end of the movie, the only reason why jets were able to get off the ground is because they use a low grade fuel similar to diesel fuel, the luftwaffe desperately needed the american fuel reserves, Mr. Fonda saved the day!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v358/bolillo_quemado/battleofthebuldge.jpg

gx-warspite
07-07-2005, 10:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aviar:
What were the main battle tanks for the U.S. and the Germans during this conflict? (Ardennes Dec. 1944 - Jan. 1945)

Aviar </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There really was no such thing as a "main battle tank" during World War II (though the T-34/85 and Panther came close.. and perhaps the Sherman 76/Sherman Firefly).

Germany used a large variety of tanks, assault guns and tank destroyers.

German tanks that were certainly involved:
Panzer III M
Panzer III N
Panzer IV G/H/J
Panzer V D/A/G (Panther)
Panzer VI E (Tiger)
Panzer VI B (Tiger II)
StuG III F/G
StuG IV
StuH
JpZ IV
JpZ IV/70
JpZ V (Jagdpanther)

This doesn't include numerous subvariants and specialist tanks like Flammpanzers, heavy assault guns like the Sturmpanzer IV Brummbar and so on.

American forces were much simpler.

You had the entire range of M4 Shermans, from the standard 75mm gun design through the 76mm, 105mm howitzer, and Sherman Jumbo. Also present would be light tanks like Stuarts, and in smaller numbers, the Chaffee (which arrived just in time to participate), as well as tank destroyers like the M10 Wolverine, M18 Hellcat and M36 Jackson. To my best knowledge, the M26 Pershing never participated during the battle, but it might have since it was approved for limited procurement (ie, in small numbers for live trials) in October '44. So it's a slim possibility...

Utchoud
07-08-2005, 08:03 AM
Hi all,

I don't know if it's helping, but I have information about what the theoretical composition of German tank units in 1944 should be like according to OKH (Oberkommando des Heeres) regulations.

A 1944 Panzer Division consisted of a Panzer Brigade and a Panzergrenadier Brigade. The Panzer Brigade had one Panzer Regiment with two Panzer Battalions. Each battalion had three companies with 17 tanks each (3 platoons with 5 tanks and a command section with 2 tanks). 1st battalion had PzKpfw.IV tanks, 2nd battalion had PzKpfw.V Panther tanks. Theoretically, in a Panzer Division, there were 51 PzKpfw.IV and 51 Panthers plus some regiment, brigade and division staff vehicles. The Panzergrenadier Brigade had two Panzergrenadier Regiments (infantry units cooperating with assault guns), an Artillery Regiment and AA, anti-tank and auxiliary departments.

The heavy tanks - the Tigers - had their own "Schwere Panzerabteilungen", Heavy Tank Battalions outside the division organisation. A "Schwere Panzerabteilung" in 1944 had a command section with two PzKpfw.VI Tigers and three companies with 14 tanks each (again a command section with 2 Tigers, and three platoons with 2 Tigers and 2 PzKpfw.IV each; however, in late 1944 and 1945, the PzKpfw.IV had been already replaced by Tigers). That's 54 Tigers total. The battalion was supported by auxiliary departments, including a reconnaissance platoon with PzKpfw.IV Ausf.H tanks.

The real order of the units, of course, differed from these regulations.

Utchoud

csThor
07-08-2005, 08:42 AM
In Il-2 you should use Panzer IV J and Panzer V as regulars with a few King Tigers thrown in. There were no Tiger I's in the OOB for "Wacht am Rhein".

As tank hunters StuG III and IV as well as Hetzer would be the most probable, maybe an odd Jagdpanther, too.

HoldSteady641
07-08-2005, 08:58 AM
The Battle of the bulge movie is toecrushingly evil in displaying some bland 50-60 era medium american tank as the Tiger II. They have to, since only a few survived, and it is doubtfull they are able to drive on their own..
The modern Leopard I or II are more alike to the Kingtiger than these tanks were.. If I recall correctly, the Patton tanks were used..

telsono
07-08-2005, 09:40 AM
The "Battle of the Bulge" movie is not worth watching. It is totally inaccurate as to the actions that occured. The producers had a German Field Marshall (I have the information at home as to whom) review the movie. They thought it would help in the promotion of it. His review was never released by them, He had called the movie "An insult to the fighting spirit of the American Soldier."
I would suggest reading "A Time for Trumpets" by Charles B. MacDonald. You can get a used copy on Amazon for as low as $5.00. This book has detailed actions and is considered one of the best covering this battle. As a side note the author commanded a company during the actual fighting which was the source of his first book "Company Commander".
Also, I would suggest any book by Carlo D'Este on actions in WWII. He is a fantastic researcher.

Gryphonne
07-08-2005, 09:41 AM
Pz VI Ausf. E/H Tiger didn't participate in the battle of the bulge. Some JgPz VI Ausf. B Jagdtiger were present during the offensive, next to the tanks already mentioned.

bolillo_loco
07-08-2005, 12:01 PM
perhaps two of the posters above missed my sarcasm by my battle of the buldge post, also maybe you should lower your standards. it was a movie produced for entertainment purposes. I do not remember anywhere in the film where it stated "documentary or this is a true story"

I rather enjoyed several hollywood war films which were infact romantic movies or had some comedial value which were bases losely on the war.

telsono
07-08-2005, 12:55 PM
bolillo

I understood your sacrasm, but that film is sooo awful. There is a scene when the German tank commander was told he was to get the newest Tiger tank and he was overjoyed! In reality Sepp Detrich who the character is modeled after said something to the effect of "put them at the back of the column, I don't want them to slow me down." Tiger II's had terrible off road capability. In muddy ground it was a 70 ton pillbox.

This week the History Channel is showing it, I don't plan on watching it.

Anyway, as I had mentioned, there are some great sources out there like MacDonald's book.

As an aside, it has been mentioned that the Sherman tank had some bad characteristics, it also had some good ones. Its off road capability was better than most German AFV's and had a longer range. Those multi-bank Chrysler engines gave alot of power and were dependable.

WarWolfe_1
07-08-2005, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bolillo_loco:
perhaps two of the posters above missed my sarcasm by my battle of the buldge post, also maybe you should lower your standards. it was a movie produced for entertainment purposes. I do not remember anywhere in the film where it stated "documentary or this is a true story"

I rather enjoyed several hollywood war films which were infact romantic movies or had some comedial value which were bases losely on the war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Better than nothing I would say. I Love the PanzerLeid song.
http://www.tiger1.co.uk/Panzerleid/panzerleid.htm