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F19_Orheim
05-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Join the club, add the banner on your signature, right click and choose "properties" to get pic URL.

F19_Orheim
05-06-2006, 12:06 AM
Join the club, add the banner on your signature, right click and choose "properties" to get pic URL.

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 12:35 AM
I'm sorry, It's Fokker D.XXI http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I cannot tell you the meaning of the "D" right now but it certainly should be there. It now looks like "Gruman 14A Tomcat" or something.

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 12:40 AM
Rock on guys http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 12:41 AM
I'm pretty sure fighter starts with D in Dutch btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-06-2006, 12:43 AM
That sig is faaar to crowded! I'll use it when it's not that crowded and the spelling mistake removed!

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I'm pretty sure fighter starts with D in Dutch btw http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

Good attempt tough... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 12:54 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Fair enough, I trust you on it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 12:56 AM
Maybe use something from

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/9382/fr160dxxi2ac.jpg
Or
http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/4868/fokkerdxxiwallpaperlarge8gp.jpg

I'd say pick the top one though (on the wallpaper pic), its the right type we're getting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 01:00 AM
The Dutch word for "fighter" (aircraft) is "jager" wich also means "hunter". The Dutch word for "bomber" is "bommenwerper" literly translated, this becomes "bomb thrower". When we where overrun by the Germans in may 1940, we refered to that part of the war as the "meidagen" or "maydays".

Translating can be quite hilarious http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 01:15 AM
**OOPS**

The colors on the Dutch D.XXI profile are a bit off. These are the colors that show on the military aviaton museum replica. But they found out (from paint analyzation from a wreckage) that the colours where more like this:

http://www.1java.nl/attachment.php?attachmentid=4558

This screenie is a render with the 3D model for Il-2 PF, no actual D.XXI has been flown yet in Il-2 PF (as I know of)

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 01:23 AM
Fair enough, I actually like the other one better, colours look nicer http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Heliopause
05-06-2006, 01:24 AM
Yeah, gimmy the Fokker D XXI http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/FokkerDXXI-museum.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 03:17 AM
As Feathered said, real men fly planes with pants on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-06-2006, 04:20 AM
About the letters:
Fokker usually used a D for fighters, so that is a true word. C was used for recce aircraft and T for bombers. Where these letters come from, I don't know.

About the colors. That profile is actually quite good. The colors do differ a bit, but they are also messed up by the scan.
Though I used the RAL and FS colors that are actually known now, I think that the sand migh have been that colorfull compared to the more olive looking I used in the skin. I came to that conclusion after studying the wreckage of a D.XXI. But it was very hard to tell the difference between oxidation effects and paint.
But I looked at the places where it should have this sand like color.
On the otherhand a real sand color doesn't make sense over the Dutch landscape. A more pale/olive one fits better.

What is known is that the colors of the Replica (pic above this post) are wrong. The Dark brown is too light and reddish (a bit hard to see on this picture) and the green too bright and blueish. But it was painted by the best knowledge of that time.
As known now (and still subject to some discussion) The colors were something from the profile above (as printed in the book) and shown on the faked IL-2 screenshot.

Erretje_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">About the letters:
Fokker usually used a D for fighters, so that is a true word. C was used for recce aircraft and T for bombers. Where these letters come from, I don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Imperial German Airforce used these letters during the First World War, Pfalz C.I, Albatros D.III etc..

G. Heavy Bomber
E. Eindecker
Dr. Dreidecker
D. Fighter
C. Recce
etc.

So did Fokker, D.VII, Dr.I etc.
After the war when he returned to Holland he kept these codes for his new aircraft.
Dr (Dreidecker) and E (Eindecker) were never used again.

He used G. for his heavy fighter (Fokker G.I), and T for his bomber (why not G. for his bomber I do not know)

in short, The coding that Fokker used are from his days in Germany during WWI


if I'm correct http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-06-2006, 05:00 AM
Fokkers C and D numbers indeed go back to the WWI time (D.VII being the well known example) But I never dug into that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
But your explaination sounds fair enough to me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But Fokker made more then one Bomber. Of one the water version is best known: the T.VIIIw Both used in the RAF (escaped versions in 320 sqn) and Luftwaffe (captured versions).
And the T.V was officially an 'aircruiser' (literally translated). For a medium bomber it's bombload was very limited but it's firepower was pretty heavy for a 1936 design: five 7.9mm guns and a 20mm canon in the nose turret.
So, it could defend itself quite well. Still all 9 were lost.

Note the Dutch had 7.9mm ammunition For example the Browning M36 was made in Dutch versions since it standard was 7.7mm. So, that's no mistake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendly_flyer
05-06-2006, 05:14 AM
A worthy cause, gentlemen. Unfortunately I'm otherwise enganged.

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 06:44 AM
You can have two http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-06-2006, 06:56 AM
Added to my sig http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 08:27 AM
Eeeexcellent http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Soon we shall be bashing on the Oleg Embassy doors!

Viikate_
05-06-2006, 09:40 AM
Hehe... good thread guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Hopefully this helps...

ojcar1971
05-06-2006, 09:44 AM
Real men fly crappy planes!!!

Hurri-Khan
05-06-2006, 09:56 AM
Never used a sig before, but this seems worthy enough cause http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Capt_Haddock
05-06-2006, 10:00 AM
LOL, nice one http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

erco415
05-06-2006, 11:05 AM
Count me in guys! With the XXI I could finally relive Eino Luukkanen's book.
(can we do the P-36 next?)

Tooz_69GIAP
05-06-2006, 11:50 AM
Love cr@pplanes!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GerritJ9
05-06-2006, 01:03 PM
Lobbyist for the immediate inclusion of the Curtiss-Wright CW-21B Interceptor in IL2 FB/PF! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
(Not that I don't support the D.XXI drive, but to me the CW-21B is more important)

F19_Orheim
05-06-2006, 01:06 PM
Guys, you make me proud... Let it be heard! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ugly_Kid
05-06-2006, 01:07 PM
I am in!

(although I doubt there will be a day in PF that 4x7.62 mm will down 5 SBs in 5 min http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif)

F19_Orheim
05-06-2006, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
I am in!

(although I doubt there will be a day in PF that 4x7.62 mm will down 5 SBs in 5 min http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahh u talk about the famous incident when Jorma Sarvanto downed 6(!) sb's in 4(!) minutes and got the attention from the whole world?
http://personal.eunet.fi/pp/gdes/images/sarvanto.jpg


http://www.sci.fi/~fta/finace92.htm (http://www.sci.fi/%7Efta/finace92.htm)

Ugly_Kid, there you can read the reason for Sarvantos sucess and why this would be impossible in FB/PF:

The reasons for this unusual success were: accurate shooting at a close range; the bombers were passive and lacked fighter escort; and the armourers had disregarded the regulations and had loaded the Fokker's MG belts with a larger proportion of scarce and expensive incendiary and armour piercing ammunition (Lt. Sovelius had spent all his ammo on just one bomber of the same formation in the morning).

To be honest, After the J8A, the Fokker is the one plane I have waited for the longest time and in my view should have been included with the first release of Forgotten Battles. The Finish Gulf is far from complete wirhout it. Sarvantos achievement has for a long time got my admiration.

For our Swedish or Finnish speaking audience I recommend reading his book "Stridsflygare under Karelens himmel" or in Finnish " H√¬§vitt√¬§j√¬§lent√¬§j√¬§n√¬§ Karjalan taivaalla". Not the best written book in history, but a nice read.

Tooz_69GIAP
05-06-2006, 06:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
For our Swedish or Finnish speaking audience I recommend reading his book "Stridsflygare under Karelens himmel" or in Finnish " H√¬§vitt√¬§j√¬§lent√¬§j√¬§n√¬§ Karjalan taivaalla". Not the best written book in history, but a nice read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't suppose this book is in English, or maybe Danish?

MarcusaQ
05-06-2006, 07:24 PM
F19_Orheim, great that you keep this issue alive! Fokker D.XXI would be such a wonderful thing for the sim community in Finland, and Flygflottilj 19 enthusiasts in Sweden, and elsewhere that I really hope developers will take this wish seriously. The Fenno-Russian Winter War would get a whole new life in IL2 gaming with that plane and perhaps many pilots would get interested in flying early war missions on servers.

danjama
05-06-2006, 07:44 PM
I gotta be honest i dont care for this Fokker thingy one bit, but this has given me the idea of makin a sig to spread for mk14 fans, cheers http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

HotelBushranger
05-06-2006, 11:32 PM
One of the biggest reasons for the Finn's success against the Russians was training. The guns were set to converge at 150m, but the pilots were trained to fire at 50m, basically filling the windscreen. Reading his account from Finnish Aces of World War 2, he says things like "I opened fire at 20m with a short burst to the fuselage of the machine on the left. The tracers seemed to hit the target, and I quickly silenced the bomber's rear gunner. I took aim again at the right engines of both bombers in formation, and with light touches on the trigger, both enemies went down in flames...before turning to the next aircraft in the formation, hitting it with gun fire at a very close range. This planes too burst into flames soon after I had it it with two or three very short burts."

So it seems had he been versing some well armoured, well trained bombers he would not have survived, he was basically in formation with them he was that close! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Also, I think we need to ask a vet Fokker pilot (if there are any left http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif) about tracer colour. This has been on my mind for a loong time, and personally it would be very hard to fly a Fokker with red tracers, the Russian green ones always seemed to fit better, and they always feel much more powerful than the brownings.

Heliopause
05-06-2006, 11:58 PM
Have put it in my sig but it doesn't show http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
(Works now!!! thks)

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 01:20 AM
You have to put fokker mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But with no spaces.

wiekiewiekie
05-07-2006, 01:43 AM
Go Fokkers ! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

F19_Olli72
05-07-2006, 02:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
For our Swedish or Finnish speaking audience I recommend reading his book "Stridsflygare under Karelens himmel" or in Finnish " H√¬§vitt√¬§j√¬§lent√¬§j√¬§n√¬§ Karjalan taivaalla". Not the best written book in history, but a nice read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't suppose this book is in English, or maybe Danish? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If not a really cool book is Ilmari Juutilainens memoirs "Double fighter knight". http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Might not be that easy to find though.

BrewsterPilot
05-07-2006, 02:29 AM
Go Sarvanto! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ugly_Kid
05-07-2006, 03:43 AM
There is also a recommendable book from Eino Luukkanen:"Fighter over Finland" 3rd ranking ace in FAF.

Unfortunately, great book I recently read about Antti Tani is probably not available in english...

wiekiewiekie
05-07-2006, 04:41 AM
Sorry for being a bit of a rebel here, but ehm.. decided to make my own sig image with the same text. I found the other one a bit hard to read with all the white and blue. Plus it wasn't big enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Feel free to use.

Dimensionaut_
05-07-2006, 04:47 AM
I prefer yours Wiek. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Is 'deep linking' allowed in this case?

wiekiewiekie
05-07-2006, 05:01 AM
deep linking ?
You can use this link:
(IMG)www.luijken.com/images/DXXIbanner.jpg(/IMG)

AndyHigh
05-07-2006, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
colour. This has been on my mind for a loong time, and personally it would be very hard to fly a Fokker with red tracers, the Russian green ones always seemed to fit better, and they always feel much more powerful than the brownings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think this is a good idea for finnish version. It wouldn't be easy to spot friendly aircraft vs. those "red devils" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif at longer distance.

Skis would be nice touch.

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 05:54 AM
Yeah but the brownings feel so puny - if they bettered the sounds it might be a bit better. In any case, it would be realistic not knowing who was fighting - Russian and Finnish aircraft rarely had radios in the Winter War!

And skis are automatic in winter maps, much like the J8A http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tell ya what, I'll wear both sigs!

Dimensionaut_
05-07-2006, 06:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyHigh:

Skis would be nice touch. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viikate did make skis for the Finnish models http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

@HotelBushranger: Add http:// in front of the image URL Wieke left that out

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 06:45 AM
Thanks mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

AndyHigh
05-07-2006, 06:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
was fighting - Russian and Finnish aircraft rarely had radios in the Winter War!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fokkers had radio for sure. Don't know about Gladiators, or Bristol Bulldogs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Good to hear skis will be there.

BrewsterPilot
05-07-2006, 06:58 AM
That sig is too large. Moderators will have you remove it.
Maximum allowed:
Height: 150
Width: 400 (or 500, don't know)
Size: 64kb

HotelBushranger
05-07-2006, 07:17 AM
You would know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

wiekiewiekie
05-07-2006, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrewsterPilot:
That sig is too large. Moderators will have you remove it.
Maximum allowed:
Height: 150
Width: 400 (or 500, don't know)
Size: 64kb </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either you're pulling my leg because you like it so much, or your own banner is way over size http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Anyway, it is now 500 pixels wide. Couldn't find rules for them on the forums.

F19_Orheim
05-07-2006, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
For our Swedish or Finnish speaking audience I recommend reading his book "Stridsflygare under Karelens himmel" or in Finnish " H√¬§vitt√¬§j√¬§lent√¬§j√¬§n√¬§ Karjalan taivaalla". Not the best written book in history, but a nice read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't suppose this book is in English, or maybe Danish? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tooz, I am sure you can handle Swerdish in writing, our languages arent that different. I have no problem reading Danish, worse with how you pronounce your wordshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Orheim
05-07-2006, 09:31 AM
Nice new sig, better than mine. I'll changehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

I miss the Finnish markings though. It's the Finnish version I want, with the extra window in the backhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hurri-Khan
05-07-2006, 10:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Fokkers had radio for sure. Don't know about Gladiators, or Bristol Bulldogs http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Usually only flight leader's a/c had finnish P-12-17/1 transmitter/receiver, other fokkers in same flight usually had P-12-17/2 receivers.

Sometimes british AM TR9D transmitter/receiver was used (radio of GL and HC). Some wasp fokkers (series V ?) had german Telefunken FuG 7A.

Bulldog didn't have radio, as far as I know..


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Dimensionaut_
05-07-2006, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Nice new sig, better than mine. I'll changehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

I miss the Finnish markings though. It's the Finnish version I want, with the extra window in the backhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
The Dutch version was the best performer (better engine) and the 'Greenhouse' was the worst performer due to a weaker engine and heavier armor.

Hurri-Khan
05-07-2006, 10:48 AM
I think the ultimate fokker would be finnish 1942 version with mercury VII (VL also released few blenheim's mercury VIII's for fokker use). FAF FR had reinforced structure, landing gear, brakes etc. minor modifications. But those fixed wing slots, reflector sight, rear window, pilot armor and sealing fuel & oil tank give some survival rate for it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Dutch one performs better tough..

But flyable wasp would be the ultimate cr@p plane : http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif just trying to keep that thing in air during 1941-44 would be a challenge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-07-2006, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Friendly_flyer:
A worthy cause, gentlemen. Unfortunately I'm otherwise enganged. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed. You have my support gentlemen. My sig however, belongs to another. ~S!~

Tooz_69GIAP
05-07-2006, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Tooz, I am sure you can handle Swerdish in writing, our languages arent that different. I have no problem reading Danish, worse with how you pronounce your wordshttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not that good at reading Danish, having only re-learned the language about 4 years ago! Norwegian I'm okay with at times, but Swedish, urgh!!

F19_Orheim
05-07-2006, 03:52 PM
same language almost...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif give it a try...

F19_Orheim
05-07-2006, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Nice new sig, better than mine. I'll changehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

I miss the Finnish markings though. It's the Finnish version I want, with the extra window in the backhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
The Dutch version was the best performer (better engine) and the 'Greenhouse' was the worst performer due to a weaker engine and heavier armor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a problem, rather the opposite. We Like 'em like cr@p... makes them Cr@pPlanes‚"ěĘ‚ģ‚©

HotelBushranger
05-08-2006, 03:00 AM
I was a bit miffed when I found out there was no Wasp Fokker flyable. The skins for it are sooo much cooler, and the Revi gunsight would be a lot better. Indeed it shall be a challenge flying that online with success, a Mercury Fokker is like a underarmed, less manouerable Zero!

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 03:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Nice new sig, better than mine. I'll changehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif!

I miss the Finnish markings though. It's the Finnish version I want, with the extra window in the backhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You sure? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif
The Dutch version was the best performer (better engine) and the 'Greenhouse' was the worst performer due to a weaker engine and heavier armor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a problem, rather the opposite. We Like 'em like cr@p... makes them Cr@pPlanes‚"ěĘ‚ģ‚© </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And, correct me if im wrong..the 'better' version didnt help the dutch, while the finns did well in Fokkers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Viikate_
05-08-2006, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I was a bit miffed when I found out there was no Wasp Fokker flyable. The skins for it are sooo much cooler, and the Revi gunsight would be a lot better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg is planning to make SDK for FB after BoB is done. SDK would enable us to create our own planes/maps by ourself. This would be sweet deal because then I could make Wasp pit and Dutch pit and maybe even Hawk-75 pit. Then Fokker C.X after that, and Morane pit, Blenheim pit... Oh! I'm dreaming now. Don't wake me up.

HotelBushranger
05-08-2006, 03:56 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You are my god!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif I have hear a great story of the Fokker C.X. IMO one of the most beautiful biplanes. It also had an unsurpassed service, from 1938 all the way up to 1945!

And AFAIK, there is an Avia B... being put into FB, which for the moment would be a passable Fokker C.X.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/kahla/kahla.htm

Viikate_
05-08-2006, 04:12 AM
Let me emphasise the words "planning" and "dreaming".

Avia? Don't you mean Letov? I think the Letov looks more like Fokker C.V than C.X

Letov S.328
http://www.modellversium.de/galerie/bilder/1145-let2.jpg

Fokker C.V
http://www.flymuseum.dk/grafik/forsvaretsfly/FokkerCVM33_01.jpg

Hopefully the Letov carrier some bombs.

HotelBushranger
05-08-2006, 04:32 AM
Yes that's the one I was looking for! Always forget it's name http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for the Fokker C.V., how many saw wartime service? In what Llvs?

Viikate_
05-08-2006, 04:37 AM
http://www.saunalahti.fi/~ambush/faf/recon.html#√¬§foo (http://www.saunalahti.fi/%7Eambush/faf/recon.html#√¬§foo)

HotelBushranger
05-08-2006, 04:41 AM
Thank you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It also seems the Fokker C.X. lasted up until the 1950's even!

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 05:03 AM
Viikate, plz include
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/f19-017.jpg
in your plans, you can do it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hurri-Khan
05-08-2006, 07:12 AM
Viikate, don't forget the ultimate late-war cr@p plane VL myrsky! Also finns could use some groundforces. The few german tanks Finland had arrived too late and were used against germans..

I sure hope these rumors are true.. would be a dream come true http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

F19_Orheim
05-08-2006, 08:07 AM
Viikate, so how big a chance do you think there is for us to get the Fokker in upcoming pacthes?

HotelBushranger
05-08-2006, 08:20 AM
I almost don't want to know in case it's bad news http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
05-08-2006, 08:42 AM
I'd love to see the D.XXI. Include it in the patch that brings us the p-36/Hawk 75!

Viikate_
05-08-2006, 08:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Viikate, so how big a chance do you think there is for us to get the Fokker in upcoming pacthes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm... I really don't know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif External models should be already implemented, but FM and pits are not. Let me quote Oleg here:

"They all inserted in engine, but not tuned and specified in a code for damage and cockpit. The guys that are doing it find that for him right now is more easy to put Italinas in a short time than your models... We still plan to release them somewhere in between the coming add-ons with Pe-2 series, Il-2 sereis, etc."

This was the situation back in February. I don't know if the patch is coming in between the add-ons or after the 3rd add-on.

Dimensionaut_
05-08-2006, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
And, correct me if im wrong..the 'better' version didnt help the dutch, while the finns
did well in Fokkers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explain yourself please?
On what terms are you comparing?

Anyway, this better perfomance is more interesting to us then to the real thing, given the conditions they had to fight in.

Tooz_69GIAP
05-08-2006, 11:21 AM
There is supposed to be an Avia B.534 bi-plane fighter that was done a while ago, and may possibly be released with the Slovakia map.

It looks kinda like a LaGG-3 with a second wing and fixed gear.

Ruy Horta
05-08-2006, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
And, correct me if im wrong..the 'better' version didnt help the dutch, while the finns did well in Fokkers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well perhaps the odds were more in favor of the Finns compared to the Dutch.

The Netherlands didn't have any room for strategic deployment and what wasn't destroyed on the ground had to fight against great odds.

Although I suspect your just having some fun, you are comparing apples and oranges here.

Now if you were discussing the use of Hawk 75s in the NEI, you might have more room to argue, but not when it comes to the D.21

Dimensionaut_
05-08-2006, 01:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:

Although I suspect your just having some fun, you are comparing apples and oranges here.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's throw in some oranges then http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

16 kills in 5 days isn't that bad if you compare them with 130 in 105 days (Winter War) http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

But like you said the rules of engagement were different. German fighters could cover the whole of the Netherlands, so the Dutch couldn't choose their tactics and engaged what they met in the air.
But in the Winter War the D.XXI also wasn't able to hold itself against the I-16. So orders were not to engage it and the D.XXI hunted for bombers mostly.

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
And, correct me if im wrong..the 'better' version didnt help the dutch, while the finns
did well in Fokkers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Explain yourself please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> After your post of how utter **** the greenhouse version was and questioning Orheims wish for it (god forbid anyone should want a real cr@pplane?), I just simply wrote how it was, the finns did well in Fokker DXXI, yes even the utter heap of cr@p greenhouse version. And as Orheim wrote not everybody wants to have the latest and bestest version of everything...including the so called cr@pplanes. Thats what i meant. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously you totally misunderstood my post, but i can see why you did.

Hurri-Khan
05-08-2006, 01:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Well perhaps the odds were more in favor of the Finns compared to the Dutch.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The odds seem to have been (internet source):

Dutch
9 divisions
676 guns
1 tank (inoperational)
124 aircraft
Total: 350,000 men

Vs.

Germans
22 divisions
1,378 guns
759 tanks
1150 aircraft
Total: 750,000 men

on other hand..

Finland:
200,000 men,
32 tanks,
119 aircraft (In the beginning),
250,000 men,
30 tanks,
130 aircraft (At the end)

Vs.

Soviet Union:
460,000 men,
1,500 tanks,
1,000 aircraft (In the beginning),
1,000,000 men ,
3,000 tanks,
3,800 aircraft (At the end)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Let's throw in some oranges then :Veryhappy: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I prefer apples http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you look at the survival rates of D.XXI:
Dutch: All 31 lost (some captured for germans to use) Finns: 9 lost from 42, then the 130 kills in 105 days don't look that bad.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

But seriously I take my hat off for dutch pilots. If I'd had to choose from flying against VVS in the worst variant (wasp) or Luftwaffe in the best variant (dutch mercury), I'd choose the russians any day..


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

F19_Orheim
05-08-2006, 02:16 PM
Een though I prefer the Finnish version with the "stab window" , I am happy with any version at all , as long as we get it....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:

Hmm... I really don't know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif External models should be already implemented, but FM and pits are not. Let me quote Oleg here:

"They all inserted in engine, but not tuned and specified in a code for damage and cockpit. The guys that are doing it find that for him right now is more easy to put Italinas in a short time than your models... We still plan to release them somewhere in between the coming add-ons with Pe-2 series, Il-2 sereis, etc."

This was the situation back in February. I don't know if the patch is coming in between the add-ons or after the 3rd add-on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm what does he mean with "easier"??? The Fokker is easy, no retractable gear http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

well keep your fingers crossed....

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
But in the Winter War the D.XXI also wasn't able to hold itself against the I-16. So orders were not to engage it and the D.XXI hunted for bombers mostly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Finnish tactics and training (http://www.saunalahti.fi/%7Efta/fintac-3.htm) "Because of the small number of fighters it was recommended to avoid the commitments to the fighter combats.". Bombers were priority #1 thats all, a sane tactic for any countrys airforce.

F19_Orheim
05-08-2006, 02:53 PM
BTW, getting the itch to go online soon Olli? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-08-2006, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:

Soviet Union:
460,000 men,
1,500 tanks,
1,000 aircraft (In the beginning),
1,000,000 men ,
3,000 tanks,
3,800 aircraft (At the end)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are those numbers that actually fought in Finland? Seem huge, though also the Russian losses were.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:

If you look at the survival rates of D.XXI:
Dutch: All 31 lost (some captured for germans to use) Finns: 9 lost from 42, then the 130 kills in 105 days don't look that bad.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And I wonder how many non flying days there were due to weather. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:

Hmm what does he mean with "easier"??? The Fokker is easy, no retractable gear
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The D.XXI had some nasty flying caracteristics.
Maybe that has to do with it.

Top_Gun_1_0_1
05-08-2006, 02:59 PM
this A/C is the equivalent of the mini cooper,cute http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-08-2006, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
After your post of how utter **** the greenhouse version was and questioning Orheims wish for it (god forbid anyone should want a real cr@pplane?), I just simply wrote how it was, the finns did well in Fokker DXXI, yes even the utter heap of cr@p greenhouse version. And as Orheim wrote not everybody wants to have the latest and bestest version of everything...including the so called cr@pplanes. Thats what i meant. Nothing more, nothing less. Obviously you totally misunderstood my post, but i can see why you did. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did I say the Wasp is utter cr@p? Nowhere...
If you look at the performances they are not that far apart. And that is because weight and a weaker engine are the main changes.

The only reason I asked Orheim about his opinion was because very often people think the Wasp version is better. This because it is the laters version and looks better since the pilot has a better view. Understandable since usually later versions do have improvements. Not everybody knows that the Wasp engine was used because Finland had to save their Mercuries for the Blenheims.

The way he wrote it "the one with the extra window in the back" made it likely he thought that version had favors over the others.

BTW: Greenhouse is just a name we use for the Wasp, just in the same way we talk about cr@pplanes. So, it's not a way of expressing I don't like that one. I hope to see them all soon.

Overall the D.XXI performed much better then one would have expected. Most credits go to the Finnish Mercury, but it had the best conditions during the Winter War: interception missions against more favorable enemies. The Wasp was used less active and beside that it had to face much more modern enemies. The numbers show that.

The D.XXI didn't help the Dutch. But did the Spitfire help the British during the Battle of France? No.....
And that's a suggestion like you made.

Hurri-Khan
05-08-2006, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Are those numbers that actually fought in Finland? Seem huge, though also the Russian losses were.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I copy/pasted them from wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_holland

I ain't that familiar with battle of holland, but winterwar figures seem to be accurate compared to accepted history books.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wonder how many non flying days there were due to weather. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you really want to count, go ahead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.winterwar.com/misc.htm

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Hmm what does he mean with "easier"??? The Fokker is easy, no retractable gear
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also no need for fancy loadouts, unless "the sarvanto" loadout is added http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

F19_Ob
05-08-2006, 03:38 PM
One interesting note regarding the Fokkers is that engaging bombers was often a, close to, suicidal stunt (not only for the Finns ofcourse) since the closing-speed usually was very slow, especially after the first pass.
Surprisingly the the Finnish pilots themselves claim that they got in close and stayed behind an engine trying to set it afire with those peashooters while watching the gunners work.

Must be some kind of miracle to get away unhurt from that.
Imagine seeing the gunners clearly while they shoot at you. How could they miss?

-----------------------------------------------

Yes Orheim we both will be online soon enough, and so often that u will grow tired of our company. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Been away doin stuff, and taken a closer look at skinning.

------------------------------------------------

F19_tintin
05-08-2006, 03:49 PM
F19_ob wrote
(Yes Orheim we both will be online soon enough)
nice to hear http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif did u and Olli get the Pe2?

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 04:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Overall the D.XXI performed much better then one would have expected. Most credits go to the Finnish Mercury, but it had the best conditions during the Winter War: interception missions against more favorable enemies. The Wasp was used less active and beside that it had to face much more modern enemies. The numbers show that.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You made your point clearly that you believe the finns had it easy against russian numbnut pilots, and dutch pilots were the heroes. No need to repeat that. You're free to your own opinion, as am i.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
The D.XXI didn't help the Dutch. But did the Spitfire help the British during the Battle of France? No.....And that's a suggestion like you made.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. Thats a suggestion you thought i made.

F19_Olli72
05-08-2006, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_tintin:
F19_ob wrote
(Yes Orheim we both will be online soon enough)
nice to hear http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif did u and Olli get the Pe2?

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not yet Tintin. But soon.

F19_Orheim
05-09-2006, 12:59 AM
Bump, almost ended up on the 2nd page. We can't allow that can we!?

Dimensionaut_
05-09-2006, 01:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
You made your point clearly that you believe the finns had it easy against russian numbnut pilots, and dutch pilots were the heroes. No need to repeat that. You're free to your own opinion, as am i.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want a fair discussion stop putting words in my mouth I NEVER SAID!

First you accuse me I say the Wasp is utterly cr@p. Then you say I forbid people to like cr@pplanes. And now you say I say the Finnish had it easy. All those things I didn't say.

First of all you started saying the Dutch did bad. I responded by saying that the circumstances were totally different.
That is something different then saying the Finnish performed bad or had it easy. It is common knowledge that the Finnish D.XXI's had the best results during the winter war. Better then aircraft they had that one should except to perform better then the D.XXI.

That an airforce should have a sane tactic, yes.
But the Dutch couldn't coose. Whenever they got up there were enemy fighters. The other choice would have been to stay on the ground. That is why they adopted extreme low flying, which was most succesfull for the Bi-planes. Maybe because they had a more suitable color for the terrain: green instead of brown.

Now the I-16 was better then the D.XXI, it was faster and could turn within the D.XXI. So, in both ways the D.XXI couldn't gain the advantage within using more dangerous tricks like highspeed stalls.
For comparisation:
While the 109E was way faster then the D.XXI, the D.XXI was able to shake a 109 from his six and get behind it within 3 turns.

And to the quote you are responding to:
I say that the Mercury got the most credits there in the Winter War. There it got it's superb kill/loss ratio.
The Wasp version became active in 1941. By that time the FAF had more modern fighters like the 109 and so did the Soviet airfirce. So the D.XXI was mostly used for missions like armed recce, not interceptions anymore. A sane choice again. The numbers show that I said, but if you need them here they are:
Winter war 130 kills vs 9 losses.
Continuation war 60,3 kills vs 50 losses (and roughly half of the numbers is for the Mercury and half for the Wasp version). That's not quite the result of the Winter war. And before you start saying I said so: noone is to blame for that, since the D.XXI was simply obsolete by that time and actually it allready was in 1939. I just mention them to show that they are only slightly better then the Dutch kill/loss ratio. (not taking into account the D.XXI's that were lost by being demolished by Dutch crews and that were captured by the Germans)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
No. Thats a suggestion you thought i made.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your first post in the thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
And, correct me if im wrong..the 'better' version didnt help the dutch
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Doesn't look like I thought you wrote it. It's really there, white on black. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You're the one adding wrong words to my post.

WTE_Galway
05-09-2006, 01:11 AM
I bet the dutch guy who broke that one tank they had was in big trouble.

Dimensionaut_
05-09-2006, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:

I ain't that familiar with battle of holland, but winterwar figures seem to be accurate compared to accepted history books.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should have looked closer, since I knew the Fins were outnumbered 3 to 1. I see it's an average of the numbers.

The figures for the Battle of Holland are OK also. I'd say the Germans used 933 aircraft over Holland. I didn't know we had a tank. I know we had 12 Landsverk L181 and 12 L180's. Those were among the most modern equipment we had. And they did well in battle. Some were damaged, but none totally lost. Only the number of German tanks surprises me. But I don't know numbers about that myself.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If you really want to count, go ahead http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://www.winterwar.com/misc.htm

LOL is there anything left unresearched?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
Hmm what does he mean with "easier"??? The Fokker is easy, no retractable gear
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also no need for fancy loadouts, unless "the sarvanto" loadout is added http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that means no FR-117? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif
I would have love that one to trying the best fairytale I heard about the D.XXI:
The Dutch D.XXI version with retractable gear, would have butchered the Zero over Indonesia... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wiekiewiekie
05-09-2006, 02:04 AM
Olli, calm down. Reading all this, the morning after, it seems you are putting words in Servals mouth.

If you read the stories about the performance of the dutch during those 5 days, you'd be surprised to read that they actually kicked german ***. The german paratroops were mostly beaten back with a lot taken prisoner (by badly armed soldiers/students on bicycles). Now that situation was likely to change once the german panzer divisions could roll in. But the main reason the dutch capitulated was to minimize casualties on the dutch civilian population.

As for the airforce. There were 36 D.XXI available and 36 G.I.a as the only fighters against 180 me109 and 62 me-110. Most of the G.Is that managed to take off during the initial attack shot down german bombers but had to land on the beach because of lack of fuel and lack of airfield to land on. They were then strafed on the beaches.
A LOT of losses for the germans for various reasons, the losses to their elite paratroops were so big that they couldn't be used against England.

These are the numbers of completely destroyed german aircraft in those 5!!! days:

# 220 Ju-52
# 28 Heinkel He-111
# 18 Ju-88
# 6 Ju-87
# 8 Me-110
# 29 Bf-109
# 6 Hs-126
# 2 Hs-123
# 4 He-59
# 2 Do-215
# 5 Do-17

Another 42 were damaged for more than 60%.

F19_Olli72
05-09-2006, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wiekiewiekie:
Olli, calm down. Reading all this, the morning after, it seems you are putting words in Servals mouth.

If you read the stories about the performance of the dutch during those 5 days, you'd be surprised to read that they actually kicked german ***.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, thats where you guys are on the wrong track, I never wrote that they didnt. If you guys ever read rethorics you would know that "didnt help the dutch" and "Dutch Fokker sucked"/"Dutch pilots sucked" or whatever meaning you read into is NOT the same. As i told Serval already, my meaning was that the finnish Fokkers did well. That was ALL.


Now lets take a deeper look what i said, rethorically:

I said this in exact words: "And correct me if im wrong...the better version didnt help the dutch, while the finns did well in fokkers"

What is wrong with that statement? Nothing. If you look historically, the finns did well. They lost 9 Fokkers with a k/d ratio of 16:1. Anybody questioning that part?

"the better version didnt help the dutch", now this is why Serval got all fired up. But without reason. What i meant was simply facts. That sentence doesnt say the dutch fought badly and were poor pilots like Serval thinks i say. But facts is facts, it didnt help the dutch did it? However good they fought they couldnt stop the germans. The finns stopped the soviets. Cold facts.

I never trolled or wanted to start a nationalistic flame. That was Servals thing, hes too hang up on the issue already.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
First of all you started saying the Dutch did bad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Again, where did i say that? Do you understand the above post now? That you misunderstood the whole thing?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wiekiewiekie:
The german paratroops were mostly beaten back with a lot taken prisoner (by badly armed soldiers/students on bicycles). Now that situation was likely to change once the german panzer divisions could roll in. But the main reason the dutch capitulated was to minimize casualties on the dutch civilian population.

As for the airforce. There were 36 D.XXI available and 36 G.I.a as the only fighters against 180 me109 and 62 me-110. Most of the G.Is that managed to take off during the initial attack shot down german bombers but had to land on the beach because of lack of fuel and lack of airfield to land on. They were then strafed on the beaches.
A LOT of losses for the germans for various reasons, the losses to their elite paratroops were so big that they couldn't be used against England.

These are the numbers of completely destroyed german aircraft in those 5!!! days:

# 220 Ju-52
# 28 Heinkel He-111
# 18 Ju-88
# 6 Ju-87
# 8 Me-110
# 29 Bf-109
# 6 Hs-126
# 2 Hs-123
# 4 He-59
# 2 Do-215
# 5 Do-17

Another 42 were damaged for more than 60%. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I never said anything negative about dutch pilots, or the Fokker. Now i wont explain myself anymore, stop putting words into my mouth and lets move on.

GerritJ9
05-09-2006, 02:39 AM
Serval, the Finns did not have 109s in 1941..... the first Finnish 109s, a batch of G-2s, arrived in 1942. In 1941 the best Finnish fighter was the B-239 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
As for the Dutch tank, the Dutch army bought two Renault FTs after WW1 to see if tanks could be useful in Holland. The conclusion was that the terrain of Holland was unsuitable for tanks and no further tanks of any type were ordered. I don't know whether both tanks were still in service in May 1940, but at least one survived the war and is now in the museum at Overloon. Apparently it was captured by the Germans and used as patrol vehicle at Volkel, where it was found after the Germans abandoned Volkel.

GerritJ9
05-09-2006, 02:47 AM
In fairness it should also be pointed out that most of the Luftwaffe losses were caused by Dutch AA fire, not by the pilots who managed to get airborne. Furthermore, ammunition ran out towards the end, so the fighters were useless from then on.
One thing that has always puzzled me is why the remaining serviceable aircraft did not fly to England. The aircraft themselves, for the most part, would have been useless- but the aircrews most certainly would have been a very welcome addition to the RAF's strength!

Dimensionaut_
05-09-2006, 04:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GerritJ9:
Serval, the Finns did not have 109s in 1941..... the first Finnish 109s, a batch of G-2s, arrived in 1942. In 1941 the best Finnish fighter was the B-239 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the 109 came later. I mentioned it as example. But the D.XXI's were active until 1944. Mot survivors were stored in 1944 and 1945. I think the Brewster was the first to replace the D.XXI and according to stories of Finnish pilots they preferred it over the D.XXI.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
In fairness it should also be pointed out that most of the Luftwaffe losses were caused by Dutch AA fire, not by the pilots who managed to get airborne. Furthermore, ammunition ran out towards the end, so the fighters were useless from then on.
One thing that has always puzzled me is why the remaining serviceable aircraft did not fly to England. The aircraft themselves, for the most part, would have been useless- but the aircrews most certainly would have been a very welcome addition to the RAF's strength!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only 29 were due to fighter action, a couple more by bombers. So, over 80% was lost due to groundfire. And like on Crete most Ju-52's were lost to AA, artillery and groundfire while attempting to land on the airfields.

Well, most T.VIIIw's escaped to the UK. And a few trainers to France. So, only the Navy appears to have made a organised attempt.
What puzzles me more is that they repeated the stunt in the NEI. the flying boats evacuated all kinds of people, but many fighter pilots were left behind.

F19_Orheim
05-09-2006, 04:26 AM
Olli and Serval, see, if we HAD the Fokker already you wouldn't have this discussion http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Another reason for joining the organisation "Lobbyist for the immediate inclusion of the Fokker D.XXI in IL2 FB/PF" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-09-2006, 04:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Olli72:
What is wrong with that statement? Nothing. If you look historically, the finns did well. They lost 9 Fokkers with a k/d ratio of 16:1. Anybody questioning that part?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, did anybody? Not me at least.
I questioned the part where you claim the Wasp did perform as well. And I explained that that had to do with the fact that the D.XXI in general was obsolete and that it was replaced by more modern fighters and was moved toward armed recce missions.

[QuUOTE]
"the better version didnt help the dutch", now this is why Serval got all fired up.
[/QUOTE]

Nope.
I asked you to explain yourself. And at that point I still thought you meant some fun, like Ruy did.
That is where you got fired up and started sounding agressive and started putting words in my mouth I never said. And those at that point still hadn't anything to do with the history of the D.XXI.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
However good they fought they couldnt stop the germans. The finns stopped the soviets. Cold facts.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You compared Finnish D.XXI to Dutch D.XXI Now it's suddenly the course of a whole battle. What I expected from the start and that is why I asked to explain yourself. A war isn't won with one type of aircraft.
You were just blurting out someting unfounded and badly formulated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I never trolled or wanted to start a nationalistic flame. That was Servals thing, hes too hang up on the issue already.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me starting a nationalistic flame? Excuse me?
It was you who jumped the topic, remember? And at that point I only only had mentioned some technical facts between different types.
I wrote myself that the Winter war results were very good. I never had problems with Fins and never will have.

It's the way you twist words I've got problems with. Just like you do now. You react agressive to my question to explain what you exactly mean. And then, when it's a bit late you make a little clear what you meant. And then you call it that I started a national flame.
Well, I simply call this an unfounded personal flame started by you.

HotelBushranger
05-09-2006, 05:10 AM
Guys ENOUGH

This thread is about Fokkers

Now please, I do not want any squabbling within the Fokker team. There's too few of us to have any fighting within the ranks http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

From a 3rd person point of view, it really does seem like a misenterpretation on both behalfs, a nasty consequence of internet chat. So both sides, just make up, drop it, and concentrate on the prize - flyable Fokker in game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif It's enough to make you drool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

To calm the spirits, here are some Fokker pics
http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/images/stills/comic.jpg
http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/images/inprogress/011b1200.jpg

Courtesy of our friend wiekiewiekie http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

F19_Orheim
05-09-2006, 05:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:

From a 3rd person point of view, it really does seem like a misenterpretation on both behalfs, a nasty consequence of internet chat. So both sides, just make up, drop it, and concentrate on the prize - flyable Fokker in game http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif It's enough to make you drool http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

HotelBushranger
05-09-2006, 06:04 AM
Can someone make a Fokker sig with this in it? I absolutely love it, and a smaller version with some font on it would kick arse!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/3158/fokkerdxximodel3ds.jpg

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-09-2006, 07:18 AM
Any good to you, Cobber?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y231/Low_Flyer/fokkerdxximodel3ds_Sig.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-09-2006, 07:39 AM
Little bigger would be nice, but http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif Thanks mate

Heliopause
05-09-2006, 08:56 AM
We need more pics:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/fokkerD-21.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/FokkerD.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/PauseHelio/Fokkergerman.jpg

As for the fact that no Dutch airplanes flew to england: I believe the surrendering terms forbid any planes flying away.

Low_Flyer_MkVb
05-09-2006, 09:11 AM
A single Koolhoven FK43 arrived England in May 1940. It seved with RAF 277, 320 and 510 Squadrons, returning home to Holland in 1945.

In 1939, Scottish Aviation purchased a couple of F.XXIIs and one F.XXXVI for use as navigation trainers. In 1941 they were serving with RAF 24 Squadron as transports.

Source: British Warplanes of World Wat II, edited by Daniel March.

AndyHigh
05-09-2006, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Winter war 130 kills vs 9 losses.
Continuation war 60,3 kills vs 50 losses (and roughly half of the numbers is for the Mercury and half for the Wasp version). That's not quite the result of the Winter war. And before you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right with your arguments but the numbers are wrong. Only 7 Fokkers were lost between 1941-44, according to this source:

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#fokkeri (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fighters.html#fokkeri)

Heliopause
05-09-2006, 09:55 AM
Finnish Fokkers in Air enthusiast july/august 2000 By Kari Stenman.

Winter war:
LeLv 24, 120 claims, lost 12 Fokkers to all causes.
Testpilots claimed 8, lost 1.

Continuation war:
LeLv 32 claimed 5, lost 3.
LeLv 30 claimed 36, lost 9.
LeLv 12 claimed 10, lost 7.
LeLv 14 claimed 5, lost 13.

Maybe not absolute truth, just numbers from an article. (as we say in Holland :don't hang me)

Hurri-Khan
05-09-2006, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GerritJ9:
In fairness it should also be pointed out that most of the Luftwaffe losses were caused by Dutch AA fire, not by the pilots who managed to get airborne. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same was case in winterwar.. AA did the most kills:
FAF claimed 190 confirmed kills, 143 bombers, 37 fighters and 10 reconnaissance planes, and nearly 100 probable.
Finnish antiaircraft forces claimed a total of 314 confirmed kills, and an estimate of 300 damaged. The navy claimed 5 confirmed kills and 17 probable.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">posted by Serval_1JaVA: But the D.XXI's were active until 1944. Mot survivors were stored in 1944 and 1945. I think the Brewster was the first to replace the D.XXI and according to stories of Finnish pilots they preferred it over the D.XXI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, B-239s replaced D.XXI as main first line fighter. D.XXI was still used as a fighter for three first weeks of continuation war, when it was replaced by curtiss hawk-75's. After that D.XXIs were used mostly for armed reconnaissance (usually in low-light conditions) and as a fighter trainers. It was then relieved from recce role by VL myrsky in '44. D.XXI was used for training even after wars. Last flight was 13.9.1948.


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Dimensionaut_
05-09-2006, 11:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AndyHigh:

You're right with your arguments but the numbers are wrong. Only 7 Fokkers were lost between 1941-44, according to this source:

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#fokkeri (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fighters.html#fokkeri) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oops, I counted all losses until 1944. Also Winter war and peace time. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I got my information from the books of Kari Stenman about the Finnish Fokkers. Those books contain lists mentioning what happened to every single Fokker.
For the Mercuries I count 7 shot down and 4 MIA and then some due to crashes and accidents
For the Wsp I count 7 shot down 1 MIA and several destroyed on the ground and a few crashed. Then one was lost to a collision with a I-153.

So even if I only count the ones that are shot down I count 14. With the MIA and the collision with an I-153 that would make 20. 12 added for other causes makes 32 total.

Looks like the owner of the website you mention forgot to add the losses for one type.
Nice to see how the losses and the claims both are shared almost equal between both versions: 7 vs app. 30

For the Winter War (to explain the 9 vs 12 numbers) 9 were shot down, one was shot down by friendly AAA, one crashed in the fog and one was destroyed on the ground.

jeroen_R90S
05-09-2006, 02:30 PM
Bumpage for D.XXI!

Didn't the 'D' originally stand for 'Doppeldecker' in the GAS in WWI? I believe they abandoned that later around 1918.

Jeroen

Tooz_69GIAP
05-09-2006, 03:40 PM
Well, I'm gonna slap on the good ole '<span class="ev_code_RED">R</span>e<span class="ev_code_RED">d</span> n <span class="ev_code_RED">W</span>h<span class="ev_code_RED">i</span>t<span class="ev_code_RED">e</span>' on my Fokker
when it arrives!!!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/DanishFokkerDXXI.jpg

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/Danish_Fokker.jpg

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/Danish_Fokker_2.jpg

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/FokkerDXXI_3.jpg

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/fokd21.jpg

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/69_giap_private/images/Malta_pix/iFokkerD.XXI_1.jpg

gotha_g.IV
05-09-2006, 04:00 PM
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1
Fokker g1 Fokker g1 Fokker g1

Sorry, i couldn't help myself! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

F19_tintin
05-10-2006, 03:16 AM
Bump http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://www.luijken.com/images/DXXIbanner.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 03:57 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9455/fokkerdxxiphoto11fg.jpg

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/831/fokkerprofiles8ze.jpg

F19_Ob
05-10-2006, 04:25 AM
Where did u find that beautiful comic page Bushie?
Are there more? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 04:33 AM
www.luijken.com (http://www.luijken.com) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But that's the only one http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Beautiful that it is http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

wiekiewiekie
05-10-2006, 07:16 AM
Glad you like the comic book page http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . It was an idea I had a while back to see if I could do something like a comic book page (or pages).
Maybe I'll do more in the future because it is a great way to tell a story within a still image.

Bremspropeller
05-10-2006, 07:22 AM
Mother Fokker anyone ?


http://www.spitcrazy.com/Fokker-DR-1.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 07:24 AM
Wrong era http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Wiekie, those comics rock!

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-10-2006, 07:45 AM
The good old days, Fokker DXXI photographed in 1938. The place is Aviation Fair in Helsinki, Finland. Notice the Fokker -text in the rudder of Fokker.
In the same place the Heinkel was trying to sell their He-112s to Finland.

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8278/untitled1copy9pp.jpg

Viikate_
05-10-2006, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Wiekie, those comics rock! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. And that D.XXI model is amazing Wiekie, even it's exact copy of the not so accurate replica. Maybe you could convert it to Finnish model or make the wheel spats narrower.

How abuut making a movie with that comic style. Bit like this but in colors: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/9271025044

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 08:21 AM
Mangrove, where did you get that pic from? It's beaut http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I'm happy with Luji's model as it is at the mo, wheel spats look great to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

wiekiewiekie
05-10-2006, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
I agree. And that D.XXI model is amazing Wiekie, even it's exact copy of the not so accurate replica. Maybe you could convert it to Finnish model or make the wheel spats narrower.

How abuut making a movie with that comic style. Bit like this but in colors: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/9271025044 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean like this ? http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/anims/variousaircraft.avi

But comic look.... these are work in progress animations that I haven't touched for a while.

As for the wheel spats, you are right, they should be narrower for the dutch version, haven't gotten around to changing them yet. As for the finnish verion, yep, that's also on the list. But please understand it takes quite a while to make stuff like that.

Dimensionaut_
05-10-2006, 09:30 AM
What Viikate means to say, is that the wheelspats don't look like the Dutch ones.
The Dutch wheelspats were flat on the sides, while these are a bit rounder. You can see that best on pictures from the front.
And the replica which is in the Museum in the Netherlands has the same problem. The wheelspats look Finnish. This mistake is no surprise since (I think especially Dutch) would not expect this difference in the gear. And while making this replica, many resources from Finland were used, since much was lost in the Netherlands.

Reason for the difference in the gear is that the Finnish needed to replace the wheels with skis in the winter.

major_setback
05-10-2006, 12:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wiekiewiekie:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
I agree. And that D.XXI model is amazing Wiekie, even it's exact copy of the not so accurate replica. Maybe you could convert it to Finnish model or make the wheel spats narrower.

How abuut making a movie with that comic style. Bit like this but in colors: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/65710358/m/9271025044 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean like this ? http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/anims/variousaircraft.avi

But comic look.... these are work in progress animations that I haven't touched for a while.

As for the wheel spats, you are right, they should be narrower for the dutch version, haven't gotten around to changing them yet. As for the finnish verion, yep, that's also on the list. But please understand it takes quite a while to make stuff like that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That clip is amazing, thanks for posting it - Great lighting, and the see looks like water=30 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. It's as good as Tochy's animations in my opinion.
I've been a fan of your stuff for some time, I was glad to see some images I haven't seen before on your site:

http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/images/stills/the%20beach.jpg

http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/images/stills/DXXIme109dogf_v006_0126.jpg

Nice collage (I presume the plane is CG, made by you):

http://kiwi123.military-meshes.com/images/stills/DXXIparked.jpg

wiekiewiekie
05-10-2006, 12:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:
That clip is amazing, thanks for posting it - Great lighting, and the see looks like water=30 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. It's as good as Tochy's animations in my opinion.
I've been a fan of your stuff for some time, I was glad to see some images I haven't seen before on your site.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the nice comments !
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/partyhat.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by major_setback:

Nice collage (I presume the plane is CG, made by you):

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is indeed. The background is a photograph I took on an airshow at Gilze Rijen last year.

goshikisen
05-10-2006, 12:45 PM
The clip and the airshow photograph... all of your screenshots, absolutely amazing. In some ways I'd say you've almost rivalled Tochy's stuff. The physics of the aircraft's movement seem somewhat more believable in your clips.

You've made a convert of me... I was somewhat ambivalent on the Fokker XXI, but now after seeing all the effort that has gone into it I think it would be a shame for it not to appear in the sim.

Dimensionaut_
05-10-2006, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
Mother Fokker anyone ?


http://www.spitcrazy.com/Fokker-DR-1.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the most famous Fokker together with the D.VII, but not the Mother Fokker.

And eh... it's famous because of the Red Baron. I hate to say it (being Dutch and a Fokker fan I wished all Fokkers did have the best results), but unfortunately the Red Baron did score only a few of his many victories in this beauty.
And also this aircraft wasn't that unique. It was ordered by the German command in reaction to an allied tri-plane (forgot which one). This Fokker was the best German design for the tri-plane competition. But unfortunately it's real successes don't really match the fame it got. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Here is the real mother Fokker http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
http://www.luchtmacht.nl/images/4_44339.jpg

http://www.rnw.nl/millennium/nl/assets/images/spin_groot.jpg

25 were built, two of them still exist.

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-10-2006, 01:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Mangrove, where did you get that pic from? It's beaut http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, that's from old Finnish magazine. Hmm... I'm running out of Fokker DXXIs photos so I quest that you will have to settle down with this one.
The first air victories were archived from this airfield in 1939, Suur-Merijoki near the city of Viipuri (Vyborg).

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9725/untitled1copy0qa.jpg

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/3135/untitled1copy3xn.jpg

goshikisen
05-10-2006, 05:31 PM
Found an interesting photo of a Finnish D.XXI being refueled. Interesting in that the undercarriage "spats" have an unusual camouflage painted on them. I know that the D.XXI modellers have already come up with some skins... I wonder if they have seen this.

http://www.grafixnpix.com/wwii/r3fr4.jpg

The site from which this photo came from allows for display on other sites... so long as a link to their site is included. It's pretty interesting and is worth spending some time on.

http://www.grafixnpix.com/mappage.htm

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 10:40 PM
Those are Wasp Fokkers, it seems that spat camouflage was popular, I have many pictures of Fokkers like that.

Also from that website:

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1927/fd21wht2ve.jpg
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/2659/fd21gc15zb.jpg
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/9982/fd21flv5jk.jpg

Re the Dr 1, it was built in responce to the Sopwith Trip-plane:

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/5972/sopwithtriplaneshuttlew7il.jpg

I personally prefer the Albatros D.V and D.VII http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

It's so great to see so much support for the Fokker, I can't wait till we get this bird in the air http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/touche.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-10-2006, 10:58 PM
Are we getting it? When? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 11:03 PM
Hope springs eternal http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-10-2006, 11:10 PM
Dream on! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 11:17 PM
Gladly http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-10-2006, 11:21 PM
Repeat after me now:

We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .

Got it?

HotelBushranger
05-10-2006, 11:44 PM
With that attitude we won't http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

F19_Orheim
05-11-2006, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrewsterPilot:
Repeat after me now:

We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .
We won't get the Fokker D.XXI to this sim. . .

Got it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
and your problem is...?
and you get your info from where...?

Dimensionaut_
05-11-2006, 03:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by goshikisen:
Found an interesting photo of a Finnish D.XXI being refueled. Interesting in that the undercarriage "spats" have an unusual camouflage painted on them. I know that the D.XXI modellers have already come up with some skins... I wonder if they have seen this.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Similar patterns were quite common on the Wasp version. Viikate did pay a lot attention to such details while making his skins. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But there was some nice art on Finnish D.XXI's though, like famous comic figures and a fleeing russian soldier. Of this last one I'm sure Viikate made it. He was a bit faster then me with it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Orheim:
and your problem is...?
and you get your info from where...?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

His own wishfull thinking. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
You know the quote Viikate posted regarding implementing the model into the game...

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-11-2006, 05:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
But there was some nice art on Finnish D.XXI's though, like famous comic figures and a fleeing russian soldier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Stenman's "Finnish Air Force Camoflage and Markings", Apali 1996. These were the squadron markings in the Fokkers.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/7608/untitled1copy1pf.jpg http://img275.imageshack.us/img275/3116/untitled1copy5ig.jpg

HotelBushranger
05-11-2006, 07:07 AM
I really wish I had a scanner so I could post some pics from my books http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hurri-Khan
05-11-2006, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I know that the D.XXI modellers have already come up with some skins... I wonder if they have seen this.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viikate put my template into good use, I wouldn't be surprised if he had done whole FAF fokker fleet already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-11-2006, 07:11 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I never got to see those screens from the Fokker skins thread Viikate posted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Were they good?

Hurri-Khan
05-11-2006, 07:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I never got to see those screens from the Fokker skins thread Viikate posted http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Were they good? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well.. the original template was made few years ago, only AI plane in mind. So it could be better (they always can http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Will continue reworking it from my part when I get some sort of "official" confirmation that the plane will get added.

These are the only shots over the 'net that came in mind..
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/45410763/m/6761076862/p/3

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-11-2006, 07:58 AM
Thanks for digging that up http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dimensionaut_
05-11-2006, 11:20 AM
Viikate made a lot of skins. Many more then he ever made screenshots for.

And meanwhile I also made a nice couple of Dutch skins.

Viikate_
05-11-2006, 01:50 PM
ok... since the old pictures went to /dev/null, here's just a few of the 70+ skins. Rendered over FB screenshots. No fancy lights or anything. Just default light setup so colors can look bit wierd.

FR-80 with original Dutch paint job. Actual plane should not have that long rear window, but it's a small error.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-80.jpg

FR-95 of 4/LLv24 in standard Winter War green paint.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-95.jpg

FR-154 of 3/LLv30. Early cont. war. This is propably what Serval meant by "famous comic figures".
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-154_1.jpg
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-154_2.jpg

FR-125 of 2/LLv30. Early cont. war. Yellow band was often painted in a hurry and over FR-numbers.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-125.jpg

FR-90 of 1/LLv32. Early cont. war. http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-90.jpg

FR-109 from same flight. White X on the rudder means that this is a plane of the LLv32 commander.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-109.jpg

FR-157 of 1/LeLv30 with some finnish military humour. http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-157.jpg

FR-140 of 3/LeLv14. One of the few Fokkers that got white wash.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-140.jpg

FR-83 of 2/LLv12 with donkey emblem.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-83.jpg

FR-110 of 1/LLv12 with ram emblem.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-110.jpg

FR-160 of 2/LLv30 with typical wheel spats paint
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-160.jpg

i think that's enough...

wiekiewiekie
05-11-2006, 04:04 PM
great stuff !! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

F19_Orheim
05-11-2006, 05:08 PM
*big sigh*

me wants!

thanx Viikate, this is painfulhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HotelBushranger
05-12-2006, 02:25 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Beautiful, I'm in love!!!

FR-83, FR-95, FR-125 and FR-117 really do it for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Viikate, I wasn't aware that Mercury Fokkers adopted the Continuation War style colours(FR-83)? Can you shed some light on this please?

Viikate_
05-12-2006, 03:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Beautiful, I'm in love!!!

FR-83, FR-95, FR-125 and FR-117 really do it for me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Viikate, I wasn't aware that Mercury Fokkers adopted the Continuation War style colours(FR-83)? Can you shed some light on this please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course they did... it was standard procedure. Usually planes were painted during repairs but some planes were used all the time and didn't get the green/black "warpaint". These planes just got the yellow fuselage band over the old winter war green and yellow under the wings. Some planes even got the yellow engine cowling over the old winter war paint.

Many Fokker also got their undersides painted with the light blue DN-color. Like this Mercury powered FR-95 for example.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-95_2.jpg
This plane was used for recon missions.

Also few Wasp engined planes got blue undersides and green top engine cowling.
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/FR-156.jpg
This particular Wasp Fokker was used for training in T-LeLv 35.

Hurri-Khan
05-12-2006, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
I wasn't aware that Mercury Fokkers adopted the Continuation War style colours(FR-83)? Can you shed some light on this please? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ALL aircraft (even staff planes, couriers, transports, trainers etc.) had yellow wingtips (~1/7th of wing span) and a 50cm fuselage band painted just before the hostilities broke out.
Standard FAF camo was usually painted during factory maintenance/repairs to all planes.

All single engined fighter aircraft (even out-dated recce fighters like gladiator and fokker) received yellow cowling band of 50cm at 1.september 1941, there were no exceptions. Though if plane had radial engine, whole cowling was usually painted.

During '44 when recognition markings were revised fokkers also got rid of upper half cowling yellow and maybe sometimes received toned-down national insignias (disc in RLM65).

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-13-2006, 05:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ALL aircraft (even staff planes, couriers, transports, trainers etc.) had yellow wingtips (~1/7th of wing span) and a 50cm fuselage band painted just before the hostilities broke out.
Standard FAF camo was usually painted during factory maintenance/repairs to all planes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you mean that the all over green was the standard FAF camo, and went over the yellow tips? In all my Fokker stuff, I've never seen a Mercury Fokker with yellow tips or CW style colours.

Hurri-Khan
05-13-2006, 06:33 AM
Umm.. the green uppersurfaces and silver doped/grey undersurfaces was standard FAF paintjob before war. This was usually done by manufacturer ie. british dark green over sky gray incase of 2nd series blenheims, RLM colors on FI-156 storches and finnish olive green over grey/silverdope on locally built aircraft.

The standard FAF camo (1941-) however was the black pattern over green /w. grey/silver underside. Usually done by VL, but sometimes on the field.

After receiving Herman G√¬∂ring's gift of 15 ex-lutwaffe Do-17Z's FAF got stock of RLM65 paint. The grey/silver part of the camo was then revised and all aircraft produced or repainted in Finland since 7.5.1942 had RLM65 (also known as DN- color by Do-17Z's serial) undersides.

Here's history of one D.XXI, showing the camo:
http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/october_2001_theme.html

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Ruy Horta
05-13-2006, 10:25 AM
Those who miss the D.21 can at least enjoy reading about her in this great book:

Le Fokker D.21
by Peter de Jong
Collection Profils Avions No9

Lela Presse, 2005
ISBN 2914017-26-X

Laminated hardcover, 223 pages

Only snag http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif it's in french...

Without any doubt, the best book you can find in print (o/p is another matter).

http://www.avions-bateaux.com/en/catalogue-livre-catalogue_23.html

HotelBushranger
05-13-2006, 10:31 AM
Looks beaut, guess I have to learn French now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Viikate_
05-13-2006, 11:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Those who miss the D.21 can at least enjoy reading about her in this great book...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I got it. It's a excellent book! I highly recommend it. Too bad that I can't understand anything else than picture captions http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Here's one more pic for HotelBushranger if you missed the original ones. Slightly damaged FR-95:
http://www.simmerspaintshop.com/~viikate/Damage.jpg

Ruy Horta
05-13-2006, 01:20 PM
Talking about french.

Although this is a D.21 thread, there are a number of GREAT a/c books in French that are worth considering even if you don't know the lingo.

Some that come to mind, but certainly not all inclusive:

Le Bloch MB-152
Collection Histoire de l'Aviation No. 13
Serge Joanne
Avions, 2003
2-914017-12-X
Laminated
528p

This book is simply stunning, I wish that all my favorite aircraft were covered in this way.


La Morane-Saulnier MS 406
Collection Histoire de l'Aviation No. 5
Collectif
Avions, 2002
2-914017-18-9
Laminated
336p

New edition


Le Brewster Buffalo
Collection Profils Avions No.8
Jean-Louis Couston & Michel Ledet
Lela Presse, 2004
2-914017-25-1
Laminated
320p

Surprising, just like the D.21 book


Le Dewoitine D.520
Collection Docavia 4
Raymon Danel & Jean Cuny
Editions Lariviere
Hard Cover
333p

A golden oldie, but if you can find it - don't even blink your eye!

It has an extensive English summary.

An interesting new and relatively cheap series:

Les Ailes de Gloire

Covering many famous WW2 aircraft of the French AFs, in a mix between Walk Around and Aircraft of the Aces.

End of little ramble on http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif french books.

GerritJ9
05-13-2006, 04:15 PM
If the D.XXI book is anywhere near the quality of Couston's Buffalo book then it will definitely be on my list of "books to be bought". However, with BoB now probably being released sooner than I expected, funds will have to be diverted towards a more capable rig than my current PC, which is occasionally struggling with FBPF.

HotelBushranger
05-13-2006, 09:24 PM
Sounds good! Doubt there'd be many Fokker books in down under, and I'd probably get kicked out the store for bad language!

Me: I'm trying to find a book
Clark: Bout what?
Me: Fokkers...

&lt;Pow&gt; &lt;Me going through the window&gt; Ouch http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Viikate, you think thats a bit more than slightly damaged?! Bloody ell I hope I'll never have you as my mechanic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif "Yeah she'll be right" Damn fine work though!!!

I hope we won't get people ignorant of the Fokkers design going 'It's too damn weak!'

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The wing was wood, with bakelite/ ply skin. The fuselage was welded steel tube, with detachable metal panels back to the cockpit and fabric on the rear fuselage and tail. The landing gear was fixed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Yet the little fighter was all one could expect: neat, tough and highly maneuverable, with good performance and heavy armament. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I question the validity of this though...from what I remember it was out-turned by a Blenheim by 3 seconds. I could imagine it being manouverable though.

From http://www.dutch-aviation.nl/index5/Military/index5-1%20D21.html

Great site by the way http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

wiekiewiekie
05-14-2006, 04:02 AM
Well, it could outturn the 109E without a doubt !

Must have been a very manouvrable blenheim or something...where does that info come from ?

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 04:22 AM
Can't remember http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif But that's true on the 109 thing. And have a look at the wings, the ailerons are very big. Here's an artists (me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) adaptation:

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5636/fokkerfurysmall8xv.jpg

Now patiently awaiting a Dutch skin to do another adaptation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I noticed a new profile on Thierry Dekkers website http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/HotelBushranger/FokkerD-21Finish.jpg

Ah, tis a good day to love the Fokker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-14-2006, 04:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wiekiewiekie:
Must have been a very manouvrable blenheim or something...where does that info come from ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

From Jukka Raunio's Lent√¬§j√¬§n n√¬§k√¬∂kulma IV:

"Tarinoiden mukaan ltn Esko Halme veteli lyhytnokalla useita per√¬§kk√¬§isi√¬§ silmukoita. Edelleen tarinoiden mukaan kevytt√¬§-BL:√¬§√¬§ pystyi kaarrossa taivuttamaan tiukemmin kuin Fokker D.XXI:t√¬§: alle 20 sekunnin ympyr√¬∂it√¬§, mutta kaikki arvot eiv√¬§t tue t√¬§ll√¬§ist√¬§; esimerkiksi koelentueen tyyppikokeissa vuonna 1939 koneen liikehtimist√¬§ kaarroissa pidettiin "huomattavan j√¬§ykk√¬§n√¬§" ja t√¬§ysympyr√¬§n ajaksi mitattiin 40 sekunttia 5400 kg:n lentomassalla."

According to stories lieutenant Esko Halme made multiple sequential loops with short nose (Blenheim Mk. I). Further more according to stories one could make more tighter turns than Fokker D.XXI: less than 20 seconds circles, but all values don't support this assumption; for example trials made by Test Flight (Koelentue) 1939 showed that the plane's (Blenheim) movements during turns were considered "noticeable stif" and the time of making full circle was measured to be 40 seconds (loaded weight was 5400 kg).

Dimensionaut_
05-14-2006, 05:37 AM
Well, if it could turn 360 degree in less then 20 seconds, then it was better then the D.XXI.
But your qoute allready mentions that the story doesn't match facts from tests.
With the official test of 40 seconds it's a no way.

Here is a story about the turning of the D.XXI compared with a Bf-109 that is supported by both pilots involved:
Both Robitsch and Van Overvest state that Robitsch dove on the six of Van Overvest's D.XXI in a dogfight with a Bf-109E3. Within 3 full turns the D.XXI was in the six of the 109 and damaged it bad enough so it had to make a forced landing.
This is also no official test, but both pilots agreed to this when they met after the war.
I got this from a magazine that reports about the meeting between both pilots.

Don't be too surprised about these stories and also about the difference with facts and tests.
A major key is in how the Blemheim was loaded. And empty bomber is much more manouvrable then a loaded bomber. And I assume that the flight from the story was done with an empty Blemheim.

I heard similar stories of fun dogfights between NEI B-25's and P-40's at the end of the war. But that story also mentions that the B-25's were stripped from anything possible to reduce the wingload. The story goes that thse B-25's were also able to turn with the P-40's

The same way I heard that the Fokker G.1 would have been able to outturn a Spitfire. It would be very nice if it's true, the G.1 is a favorite of me, just like the D.XXI. But as long as I have no good data that supports such a claim, I don't add too much value to it.
Stories like these are no official recorded tests. And while the story goes for many years some facts might have been altered a bit.

Dimensionaut_
05-14-2006, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Can't remember http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif But that's true on the 109 thing. And have a look at the wings, the ailerons are very big. Here's an artists (me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) adaptation:

Now patiently awaiting a Dutch skin to do another adaptation http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I noticed a new profile on Thierry Dekkers website http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Ah, tis a good day to love the Fokker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a couple of days and I'll give you some screenshots of Van Overvests D.XXI.

Find Robitsch skin here: http://www.canons-skins.com/109poland.htm

Third from the top. The second one with the witch was also active over de Kooij.
He was one of the two or three pilots claiming a D.XXI in the fight.

About the profiles you found. They come from the book Le Fokker.
I'm not sure Thierry Dekker made them... His name is not to be found in the list of people cooperating to the book. Or I must have overlooked it (my French is not perfect eighter).

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 06:49 AM
I got them from this website:

http://dekkerartwork.over-blog.com/

Hurri-Khan
05-14-2006, 06:56 AM
Blenheim was very manuevrable for a bomber. FAF pilots thought that if it only had better armament it could be used as fighter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif There was plans to create a nightfighter out of BL by installing 4 Shvak cannons into it, but it was never even started. RAF did their own fighter (MkIF equipped with six .303 machineguns) and if I recall right it did the worlds first radar interception..

But what is also interesting in D.XXI performance is the fact that it was almost as fast as morane 406 (which we know had inline engine, retractable gear and was also of mixed structure construction) at low alts. But it outclimbed Brewster B-239 and Hawk-75A-6! Of course BW and CU were all-metal construction and had better armament..

Morane - max speeds:
449 kph at 5,480 m; 377 kph at 0 m
D.XXI -max speeds:
418 kph at 5,000 m, 370 kph at 2,000 m, 342 kph at 0 m

Brewster - climb:
3,000 m - 4 min 12 sec; 5,000 m - 7 min 10 sec/9,900 m
D.XXI - climb:
3,000 m - 3 min 27 sec, 5,000 m - 6 min 23 sec/10,100 m

All aircraft were flown in loaded condition, with full fuel tanks, gun magazines and no external stores.

http://www.sci.fi/~ambush/faf/fighters.html#Speed (http://www.sci.fi/%7Eambush/faf/fighters.html#Speed)


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 07:17 AM
I'm pretty sure I already posted this earlier in the thread... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/354.gif

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/6904/fafclimb4al.jpg

Hurri-Khan
05-14-2006, 07:31 AM
Oh.. did ya ? Must have missed it. Consider it as a bump http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 07:38 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No worries

Btw I have found this great site on the 5 Day War, with heaps of detail and some good info on the Fokker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

http://www.waroverholland.nl/index.php?url=/uk_weap001.html

Hurri-Khan
05-14-2006, 08:08 AM
Interesting. Found one very interesting statement: "Then his Fokker was shot up so badly that the pilot decided to bail out. Upon the release of his canopy he looked in his rear-view mirror [of which the D-XXI had two] and witnessed to his astonishment that the canopy had hit his closest chaser full in the engine, after which the German plane went down and crashed."

Maybe Serval has seen these mirrors in some pics ?

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-14-2006, 08:16 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Yeah just read that same thing on a different website, definitely one in a million and I doubt the German pilot would be very happy about it! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
05-14-2006, 12:31 PM
I bet it isn't modelled in PF http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

VF51_Flatspin
05-14-2006, 09:25 PM
Heck, I'm in...been waiting for this one for a lo-ong time!

Dimensionaut_
05-15-2006, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:
Interesting. Found one very interesting statement: "Then his Fokker was shot up so badly that the pilot decided to bail out. Upon the release of his canopy he looked in his rear-view mirror [of which the D-XXI had two] and witnessed to his astonishment that the canopy had hit his closest chaser full in the engine, after which the German plane went down and crashed."

Maybe Serval has seen these mirrors in some pics ?

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, let's assume it is like this 'D.XXI with retractable gear beating up zero's' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

But Viikate has photo's of that actual D.XXI... Or what is left of it. The wreckage was found a couple of years ago and on display in a small museum.
According to records it was finally shot down by friendly flak. The remains do not really show traces of a flak hit. But the seat and propellor were pierced by bullets and shells of the Bf-110's.
Interesting is that it appeared to be another aircraft then noted in the flightrecords (so, there was a mix up somehow). Also interesting is how the red-white-blue flag on the propellor was painted black-orange-black on this example. What made me look closer at pictures of D.XXI's with the orange triangle, but it seems not to be standard issue, sine most pictures show red-white-blue on the propellor.

The mentioning of ' many dogfights' is not really true. When you look at a dogfight as a fighter vs fighter fight, then there has been only one real dogfight of 8 vs 8 aircraft with a 1 to 2 result for the D.XXI over the Bf-109E1/E3. Other engagements were mostly in the role of escort for the T-5 bomber, like the story of the D.XXI that downs a 110 with it's canopy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GerritJ9
05-15-2006, 05:02 AM
If those climb rate figures are correct, then maybe the KNIL SHOULD have ordered the D.XXI as was the original intention. It would have been a worthy opponent of the Ki.27, with better armament to offset the Ki.27's better rearward view. Top speeds were similar, and the Ki.27's better manoeuverability would have been offset by the D.XXI's more rugged construction and probably better diving ability.
So, we should have both in FBPF (not just the Ki.27), in order to test this in combat.

HotelBushranger
05-15-2006, 05:20 AM
Yet ANOTHER reason to have the Fokker ingame!

&lt;Does happy dance&gt;

Hurri-Khan
05-15-2006, 07:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:
Well, let's assume it is like this 'D.XXI with retractable gear beating up zero's' http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif
But Viikate has photo's of that actual D.XXI... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ok, so no mirrors then http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. You did also send those photos to me.. along with the heap of other stuff, thanks for those again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Heliopause
05-15-2006, 10:05 AM
I believe Finland had 2 fokker's with retractable undercarriage...The first one was a damaged example wich was repaired and given the new wheels. The second came straight from the production line with the new wheels arrangement.

Hurri-Khan
05-15-2006, 12:05 PM
Yup.. there were two.
FR-117 (mercury, series III) was re-fitted with retractable undercarriage. Evaluations were done in summer 1941. Plane crashed on 19.6.1941 after which it was repaired with usual fixed undercarriage.
If I recall right it had problems with gear uplock and/or retracting motor.. Anyways VL wanted to try another airframe, especially built for retractable gear.

FR-167 (wasp, last example of IV series) was test-flown since march 1942. It had retractable landing gear built in production line. It also had outboard wing MG's relocated to fuselage, shooting outside of the engine (I guess they didn't want to overstress the wing since that retracting mechanism weighted somewhat). Tests ended into a landing accident in may 1944..

Speed increase was around 30-40 km/h (exact data on those experiments in lent√¬§j√¬§n n√¬§k√¬∂kulmaII, don't have the book).
Here's a piccie (bad quality as usual http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) of FR-167, incase someone hasn't seen what it looked like. Also shows those fixed slots, later installed into most FAF D.XXIs.

[img=http://i75.imagethrust.com/t/477479/kuva153.jpg] (http://i75.imagethrust.com/images/20dh/view-image/kuva-153.html)

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

LEBillfish
05-15-2006, 12:15 PM
Well I'd like to see the Fokker DXXI in the sim just so I could shoot it down with Ki-27's & 43's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.....Did the Java Dutch use them?

Hurri-Khan
05-15-2006, 12:19 PM
No.. but it was originally designed for Dutch army in Indonesia.

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Dimensionaut_
05-15-2006, 12:47 PM
The Dutch JaVA's used them, but those units were based in the Netherlands http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
JaVA is in Dutch like FS (Fighter Squadron) in English, quite confusing with the island, coffee and even the programming language around... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As Hurri says it was designed for the East Indies army, but never used there. I don't remember the reason right now, but they did not like it too much.

Only the prototype went to Indonesia and was destroyed there in a bomb raid in 1942.

I don't know the status but the CW-21 (comes close http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) was used in the East Indies and the model was made a long time ago.
I sure hope it will make it into the game also.

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-15-2006, 12:58 PM
I met today an old gentleman who was flown Fokker DXXI as a trainer plane in 1943. Here is part of his flying book and photo of him, Sakari Heiskanen. After the flying school he was assigned to 1./LLv34 and there he flew Bf-109.

I'm not sure, but I think he has one aerial victory, a La-5 with Bf-109.

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/4464/untitled1copy9rw.jpg

http://img475.imageshack.us/img475/9655/untitled1copy5mq.jpg

Hurri-Khan
05-15-2006, 01:23 PM
Hmm.. all IV series wasp fokkers. He didn't happen to have any 'pit photos from his service ?? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Perhaps he could tell the basic layout what was on those side-walls..

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

F19_Orheim
05-15-2006, 01:30 PM
excellent, been away for 5 days and I see you are keeping this thread alive... GJ boyz!

Time for Seinfeld.. see u guys!

jagdmailer
05-15-2006, 08:21 PM
That would be a real shame not to have the Fokker 21 in this game at the point things are. Weren't 5-6+ variant ready to go? What happened?

Jagd

BrewsterPilot
05-15-2006, 09:35 PM
Look at my new sig! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HotelBushranger
05-16-2006, 02:33 AM
Bout time mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good to see it there

Woohoo 3000 posts! I was gonna do a special Fokker shot for it, but it will probably have to wait for the weekend and I can't wait that long http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hurri-Khan, could you please explain the 1 series, 2 series etc? All I understand right now is Mercury and Wasp versions. Cheers mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Edit: Oh yeah I forgot http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

Thank Mr Heiskanen for his service http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And if you get the chance, ask him what colour the tracer was please? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
05-16-2006, 06:16 AM
Just a bump for the edit ^ http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

F19_Orheim
05-16-2006, 06:09 PM
^

Dimensionaut_
05-17-2006, 01:59 AM
Hurri! Hurry!!!

HotelBushranger
05-17-2006, 05:06 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-17-2006, 05:31 AM
You guys call on me?

Btw, you gotta be real nice if you wants Hurri-Khans/Viikuna's skins, cause I'll be hosting them. . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

HotelBushranger
05-17-2006, 05:34 AM
Oh really, since when?

BrewsterPilot
05-17-2006, 05:36 AM
Since an agreement made yesterday. They'll be about 80mb, 70 skins, and d/l speed will be about 850kbps. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

HotelBushranger
05-17-2006, 05:49 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Yes sir!

How will you be hosting them? And what's the point, the darned plane hasn't come out yet http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-17-2006, 06:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And what's the point, the darned plane hasn't come out yet </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


It will come. . . http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Viikate_
05-17-2006, 06:12 AM
BrewsterPilot can host some big skin pack + templates WHEN/if the Fokker is in the game. No point before that. I'm too lazy to upload all skins separately to some site so BP could host two 40Mb skin packs and two 30Mb templates that includes all finnish skins. Then I could make few small skin packs of the best skins and upload them to some skinning site. And I think that Hurri still wants to update his templates. Dutch skins are Serval's children so I'll let him handle them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

oh... and let's practise some spelling. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Viikuna = http://www.pirkka.fi/files/986-viikuna_233_198.jpg

Viikate = http://www.punanaamio.fi/galleria/aseet/5286M.jpg

Now which one is more cooler? What do you think... should I change my nick to Viikuna? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
05-17-2006, 06:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Did the Java Dutch use them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Fokker D.XXI in Java, as Serval_1JaVa has stated, it was originally designed for the ML-KNIL but there are a few contradicting accounts regarding the plane in 1942. It is either destroyed in Kalidjati (or Andir AF) in one of the Japanese air strikes (March 3rd 1942?) or captured intact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> JaVA is in Dutch like FS (Fighter Squadron) in English, quite confusing with the island, coffee and even the programming language around </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1st the Java, the island. Dutch colonies opened a lot of coffee plantation areas. Naturally the coffee was also called Java, processed, packed and shipped to Netherland. Then during the end of the 20th century some programmers apparently needed a lot of Java (the coffee) to keep them awake while trying to make a new programming language http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As for why the Netherland came up with another JaVa,... Well, that's another matter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But atleast in this post, there are more than enough Java for everyone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Viikate_
05-17-2006, 06:31 AM
AARGHHH!!! NO MORE JAVA!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

I'm programming with Java here at work.
http://www.tuska.fi/office2.gif
4th year with this same s%*t. I gotta browse these forums just to stay sane.

I want new job... Maybe some modeling related with programming.

BrewsterPilot
05-17-2006, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:

oh... and let's practise some spelling. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

Viikuna = http://www.pirkka.fi/files/986-viikuna_233_198.jpg

Viikate = http://www.punanaamio.fi/galleria/aseet/5286M.jpg

Now which one is more cooler? What do you think... should I change my nick to Viikuna? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OOps! That was a mistake! Sorry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif

Viikate_
05-17-2006, 07:08 AM
No problemo. It was just pretty funny mistake. Especially for a finn. I didn't expect you to make such a mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Aero_Shodanjo
05-17-2006, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
AARGHHH!!! NO MORE JAVA!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA JAVA...

Nothing personal, just trying to drive you nuts http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Btw, I think I should make a CW-21 banner for myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Imagine the Fokker D.XXI team up with the Demon... Hmmmm... Yummy... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-17-2006, 08:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
No problemo. It was just pretty funny mistake. Especially for a finn. I didn't expect you to make such a mistake http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was hungry. . . http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hurri-Khan
05-17-2006, 11:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Hurri-Khan, could you please explain the 1 series, 2 series etc? All I understand right now is Mercury and Wasp versions. Cheers mate http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh boy.. this is gonna be hard without any decent reference books but I'll try from what I can find and remember.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The FAF serieses were numbered in order of manufacture, the 3rd (mercury) and 4th (wasp) being the main and largest production batches. The 4th series was actually most produced D.XXI series in world, with 50 examples made. The minor series (1st,2nd and 5th) were least in numbers and also least in references. Data on those is very minimal.. The differences on 1-3 (all mercury powered) series are mainly trivial in nature since all were in most aspects updated to 3rd series before war. Mercury fokkers were armed with 4 vickers MG's (fuselage guns naturally synchronised) and wasp fokkers had 4 un-synched browning FN MG's in wings.

1st series (mercury) was the only FAF D.XXI batch produced outside Finland. Those would also be the first serial produced D.XXIs ever, since FAF was first customer. It was a small "example" series of 7 planes without armament, radios, sights etc, ordered on 18.3.1936. I also recall mentioned that they were delivered without any instruments. I think nobody nowadays actually knows how much they differed from finnish-built D.XXI in detail but for example dutch used american spruce for wingspars where finns used domestic pine. Paint was "dutch military brown" with silver doped undersurfaces.

FAF serials were FR-76-82. FR-76 was the 1st one to be finished. After losing their only own D.XXI in a crash, the Fokker company asked permission from FAF for some tests to be performed with it. The company tried the larger, but unsatisfactory "E" wing and weeded out some "childhood" problems. The series arrived to Finland by sea 13.11.1937.


The 2nd series of 14 planes was ordered to adapt manufacturing in Finland. Order was made on 7.5.1937 to VL. These planes were designated FR-83-FR-96. These had the reinforced landing gear, palmer brakes instead of original dunlop ones (can't remember what the problem was with brakes..). Those modification were done as "factory guarantee" repairs to 1st series, paid from Fokker company's purse..

I think 2nd series was also first to feature that rear-window.. if not it was installed to all surviving fokkers before winterwar anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Finns also changed the direction of fibres in plywood panelling (dutch had some problems atleast with MG bay cover hatches, some being blown away during flight). Series was completed by 18.3.1939.


3rd series was the main FAF mercury series. Quite small in numbers (21 a/c, I guess someone just decided "let's double the numbers!" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). But then again VL was preparing for license production of Blenheims at the same, so maybe not enough space to manufacture more at the same time. Also the 2nd D.XXI series was still partially in production.

FAF serials of the 3rd series were FR-97-117. By 3rd series the cockpit instrumentation was standardised and older series 1-2 upgraded to match these in most aspects. I've never seen a photo of 1st or 2nd series FR cockpits so I can't say how much they actually had in common with the 3rd at the end.. Series completed by 27.7.1939.


The 4th series, ordered after winterwar.. Not enough mercuries to go around so P&W twin wasp jr. was selected. Less HP, more weight on airframe (almost 400kg!), bit longer fuselage.. you know the rest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nose section totally re-drawn, electrical system re-drawn. Brewster-style greenhouse installed. Hamilton Standard adjustable propeller (or laminated wooden VL propeller for training version) instead of Ratier prop used on mercury (the twin wasp rotated to opposite direction than mercury).

These had reinforced elevator and stabilizers with dual support struts (I recall FR had still some flutter/vibration problems -been around since original prototype, one FAF plane lost elevator but landed safely). If I recall right the phenomenon still existed after these modifications, but in much reduced nature. Rudder and fin was also reshaped. The last piece of the problem was discovered to be the main wheels - they rotated during flight. In those airframes which still had the problem it was forbidden to fly without the parking brake being applied once airborne! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I think all pilots remembered to release it when landing and no accidents happened.. The dual struts and re-shaped tail was also installed to most mercury fokkers.

All wasp- fokkers had reflector sights (either revi 3C, D or v√¬§is√¬§l√¬§ Thm41). These were also installed to most mercury FRs. Serials FRw118-167 (w engine designation only used on paper, not painted to a/c). Series completed by start of continuation war except for FR-167 "the retracting gear fokker".

Before continuation war all surviving D.XXIs got 10mm pilot armor, rubbered fuel and oil tanks (some 70kg added). Starting from August 1941 all factory repaired FRs were equipped with fixed wing slots.


The 5th series was smallest of all, consisting of 5 planes made from spares. Serials FRw171-175. Completed in june 1944 (for training use). Again not much detail info on those..


Whew.. I need a hot cup of java http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Ok.. what did forget ?? maybe Viikate with his fancy books or Mangrove can fill me in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh yeah.. wasp fokkers also had the triple supports in side windows and a radio access hatch on port side..

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

LeLv44_Mangrove
05-17-2006, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:
maybe Viikate with his fancy books or Mangrove can fill me in http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I don't know Jack **** about fighters, I don't have even one book about fighters http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif . But if you ever need info about bombers and bombs....

Dimensionaut_
05-17-2006, 12:30 PM
The main reason the Dutch had problems with the cover of the MG bay had to do with the fact that the cover was changed to house two instead of one machinegun. The shape of the cover is also different (like the one on the Wasp version). This cause too much pressure in the bay.

The vibration problem had to do with mud on the wheels. the Dutch had one or two landing accidents due to the wheel brake being applied in flight, IIRC the Finnish had some incidents with that too.

The Danish had a simple but working solution: a piece of leather in the wheelcover that wiped the wheel clean while it rotated.

One correction:
Fokkers only D.XXI (the prototype) FD-332 was not lost.
Though it almost was lost (due to it's high speed stall tendency) on it's first flight it landed safely, but the testpilot shouted at the crowd "Light it!".
Since the D.XXI was designed by request of the NAI-AF (KNIL), The prototype was transported to Indonesia and was there from januari 1937 until it was destroyed in 1942 for testing. Given the fact that this is the time FR-76 was built I assume that was the reason Fokker asked to test the E-1 wing on the FR-76.

The NEI-AF pilots did not like it's FM and there were technical problems. So, it was not flown much.
Most accepted end for this prototype is it being destroyed in februari 1942 by a bomb raid, though some sources mention that it was scrapped in 1941.

Well the story about the Finnish Sarja's looks complete to me. At least I would have to look up more details in the books. Only thing to add is that the Fifth series sometimes is called Sarja 5, but often also is mentioned as a second batch of Sarja 4.

The Dutch D.XXI kept the Dunlop brakes I think (even though delivered in 1938). I never heard anything about the brakes in the Netherlands, but the Dutch manual has a section about the Dunlop brakes.

Hurri-Khan
05-17-2006, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serval_1JaVA:

Though it almost was lost (due to it's high speed stall tendency) on it's first flight it landed safely, but the testpilot shouted at the crowd "Light it!".
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds to me like it was lost from Fokker company.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif
You are right however, I remember now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Only thing to add is that the Fifth series sometimes is called Sarja 5, but often also is mentioned as a second batch of Sarja 4.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never heard of the "2nd batch of series 4" before. Afterall there was almost 4 years between them. But then again VL might have manufactured those spares along with series 4..


Forgot that VL was also producing fokker C.X's along the D.XXIs so those ate also some workspace from 3rd series..


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

GerritJ9
05-17-2006, 02:27 PM
There is conflicting information about the prototype's eventual fate. While some sources indicate that FD322 stayed in the NEI, other sources state it was shipped back to Fokker, which makes more sense since the KNIL did not want it. Why retain an aeroplane you don't like or want? I haven't found Hooftman's booklet about the D.XXI yet so I can't definitely state his opinion about FD322's end. Who knows- it may even have been shipped to Republican Spain and been destroyed there..........
And Aero_Shodanyo....... good idea about the CW-21B banner, I definitely want to see that bird too! And while on the subject of Java, we definitely also need maps of Java in PF! East Java including Bali and Madoera, and West Java including southern Sumatra. The central portion of Java saw almost no aerial combat activity so it isn't needed. It would be great to fly the CW-21B over the Smeroe and Bromo, plus shoot the IJN/IJAAF trespassers from the skies while doing so!

Viikate_
05-18-2006, 01:30 AM
Good post Hurri http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I noticed few things though...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">These had reinforced elevator and stabilizers with dual support struts (I recall FR had still some flutter/vibration problems -been around since original prototype, one FAF plane lost elevator but landed safely). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The plane that your are thinking actually lost it's rudder. The rudder was hanging from the wires behind the plane and pilot couldn't bail out because the plane didn't fly straight. I think the plane was rolling because it was towing the loose rudder.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">All wasp- fokkers had reflector sights (either revi 3C, D or v√¬§is√¬§l√¬§ Thm41). These were also installed to most mercury FRs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No later sight installs were made to the Mercury Fokkers. Little less than 50% of the Mercury Fokkers had Revi 2B (or 2C) sights installed before the Winter War. I counted that Goertz tube-sights were slightly more used in Mercury Fokkers than the Revi sights.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh yeah.. wasp fokkers also had the triple supports in side windows and a radio access hatch on port side.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The hatch was battery hatch. Radios were mounted much higher than the hatch and they were accessed by removing the greenhouse panels. Panels had some kind of "quick lock" mounts.

HotelBushranger
05-18-2006, 02:56 AM
Fair dinkum, there's more Fokker info in ere than we can poke a stick at! We should print our own book http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As for the 5 series', this is what I found:

Different versions of the Fokker D.XXI
Fokker D.XXI-1 First production aircraft, delivered to Denmark. They were powered by 1 ”Ē Mercury VIS radial, armmed with 2 ”Ē 0.312 in (7,92 mm) guns in the fuselage and 2 ”Ē 20 mm Madsen cannon in large underwing gondolas faired into the undersurface of the wing just outboard of the main landing gear units. Length was 23 ft 7.5 in (7,20 m), empty weight was 2,701 lb (1.225 kg), max take-off weight was 3,858 lb (1.750 kg), max level speed was 245.5 mph (395 km/h) at optimum altitude, cruising speed was 207 mph (333 km/h) at optimum altitude, range was 559 miles (900 km), and service ceiling was 29,530 ft (9.000 m)
Number built: 2
Fokker D.XXI-2 The first D.XXI-2 of 36 was handed over in July 1938 to the Dutch air force, the last in September 1939 - one week after Germany invaded Poland. See specs above.
Number built: 53
Fokker D.XXI-3 Finland received 7 D.XXI-2's, and was licensed to build their own aircraft, resulting in the D.XXI-3. 38 were built, and delivered in 1939, and played an important role in the Winter War against the invading USSR-forces. The D.XXI-3 was equal to the D.XXI-2 in all respects. The powerplants were one PZL or Tampella (Bristol) Mercury VII radial engine made in Poland or Finland respectively.
Number built: 38
Fokker D.XXI-4 The D.XXI-4 was powered with a different engine as supplies of the Finnish-built Mercury radial were earmarked for the VL license-built version of the Bristol Blenheim. Finland had bought 80 R-1535-SB4C-G Twin Wasp Junior engines, rated at 825 hp (615 kW), from the USA in 1940, and production of the D.XXI-4 with this engine totaled 50 aircraft. This variant had a slight degradation of performance and agility. Other major changes from the D.XXI-3 standard were the armament of 4 ”Ē 0.303 in (7,7 mm) guns in the wing leading edges, a larger vertical tail surface for continued directional stability despite the larger engine, and the rearward extension of the cockpit glazing to provide the pilot with larger fields of vision.
The details of the D.XXI-4 included a span of 36 ft 1 in (11,00 m), an aspect ratio of 7.47 and an area of 174.375 sq ft (16,20 m‚¬≤). Length was 27 ft 9 in (8,46 m), and height was 9 ft 8 in (2,95 m). It had an empty weight of 3,384 lb (1.535 kg), max take-off weight of 4,817 lb (2.185 kg), max level speed of 270 mph (435 km/h) at 9,020 ft (2.750 m), cruising speed of 220.5 mph (355 km/h) at 9,020 ft (2.750 m), climb to 9,845 ft (3.000 m) in 4 minutes 30 seconds, and a service ceiling of 31,990 ft (9.750 m)
Number built: 50
Fokker D.XXI-5 Equal to the D.XXI-4, but with a Bristol Pegasus radial, rated at 920 hp (686 kW). Performance figures unknown
Number built: 5

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Whew.. I need a hot cup of java http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But still, what exactly is a viikuna? Looks like a moudly watermelon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Porsimo
05-18-2006, 03:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
But still, what exactly is a viikuna? Looks like a moudly watermelon http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viikuna = fig
Viikate = scythe

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
05-18-2006, 03:19 AM
Close enough http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Hurri-Khan
05-18-2006, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
As for the 5 series', this is what I found:


</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only 4th and 5th series production numbers are right on there and neither Fokker or VL used designations like "D.XXI-1".

The danish fokker's fuselage guns were 8mm. Two built by fokker and 10 danes themselves.

The delivered Dutch a/c numbers are right - 36, but the time given is a planned production time. The factory in Amsterdam actually finished planes some 4-5 months earlier..
The dutch and FAF versions had little in common except for similiar shape. Different engine, armament, instruments, sights, radio, materials, landing gear and so on..

The FAF mercury manufacturers are also interesting. I think the bristol comes from testflights done in Holland (I recall the 1st series came without engines). But some fokkers received blenheim's mercury VIII. These might have been BLs bought from britain or manufactured in Finland (which had tampella's engine).. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif
Batch of PZL engines were bought from Germany occupied Poland during continuation war. I think most went for blenheims. VL painted small polish flag on those to denote PZL (the poles used millimetric measurements where finns used bristol's original inches). I've yet not managed to see these on fokkers. .
Most had Tampella's (Finnish heavy industry manufacturer, maker of paper machines, locomotives, etc.) license-built examples.

No pegasus on V series (I think dutch or finns planned it though) since UK had declared war on Finland (only formally though). I think tampella didn't manufacture pegasus, and all engines for C.X's were bought abroad. The series V was similiar to IV series (powerplant, armament etc.).

Most of it is wrong (be sure^tm).. one can get similiar info from all over the net. Here's another example;

http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20his.../2/Fokker%20DXXI.htm (http://www.century-of-flight.freeola.com/Aviation%20history/photo_albums/timeline/ww2/2/Fokker%20DXXI.htm)


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Hurri-Khan
05-18-2006, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Viikate_:
No later sight installs were made to the Mercury Fokkers. Little less than 50% of the Mercury Fokkers had Revi 2B (or 2C) sights installed before the Winter War. I counted that Goertz tube-sights were slightly more used in Mercury Fokkers than the Revi sights.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahh.. that's from new fokker book ? Okay, makes sense since they were reduced to "secondary" planes.

Also right with rudder and hatch. Should have looked at the piccies on last comment, but I needed that cup 'o java instead..

http://www.kolumbus.fi/kari.stenman/theme/october_2001_theme02.jpg


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Heliopause
05-18-2006, 09:40 AM
In an article of Kari Stenman: As late as August 30, 1943, the factory received an order for five Twin Wasp-engined aircraft to be built from spare parts. Series V, FR-171 to -175, was completed between June 20 and November 28, 1944.

BSS_Goat
05-18-2006, 10:09 AM
Ya'll are some crazy fokkers.

Hurri-Khan
05-18-2006, 10:18 AM
We know that.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/crackwhip.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

F19_Orheim
05-18-2006, 04:46 PM
who??? me?http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif YES!

Roast
05-18-2006, 04:53 PM
Bump

http://www.f19vs.se/fokker_now.jpg

BeltranCrocker
05-18-2006, 09:04 PM
PF should add a patch that adds the DXXI the hawk 75 and the curtiss wright cw21 demon(bet u have never heard of that one)and the whole campaign in the java area. They also should have seversky p-35s from the phillipines and the phillipines campaign with the USAAC.
thats my 2cents http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HotelBushranger
05-19-2006, 03:17 AM
Oh trust me mate we do http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif IIRC, Gibbage (a member) has modelled one and sent it in to Oleg, no word on it though. Same thing for here, Oleg's keeping tight lipped http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Hurri-Khan, you are one knowledgable mongrel! Far out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But if Viikate said just more than half of Mercury Fokkers used tube sights, would making a Revi for the Mercury been to much work as well? I know Orheim (I think) made one but it was too late, but that was for the Wasp wasn't it?

By the way thanks for the first post of support BeltranCrocker http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BrewsterPilot
05-19-2006, 05:54 AM
BUMP! Oleg, bloody tell us about the Fokker D.XXI model?

Viikate_
05-19-2006, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
But if Viikate said just more than half of Mercury Fokkers used tube sights, would making a Revi for the Mercury been to much work as well? I know Orheim (I think) made one but it was too late, but that was for the Wasp wasn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I already posted about the Revi...
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m...851038214#4851038214 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7731029114/r/4851038214#4851038214)

BrewsterPilot
05-19-2006, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Hi folks,

Here is the list of the planes (or only cockpits) that are ready or almost ready for the inclusion in add-ons.
Please be sure: it may happens that not all of them will be released due to lack of time (busy with the next sim). Also pay attention that markered with * are going in the beginning only for Russian market on the separate CD (with the campaigns, new ground objects, maps, etc). Their life on the western market still not defined completely.

Planes:

Avia_B-534
B6N2
*Bi-1 (new)
*Bi-6 (3 engines)
CW21Demon
D-XXI_DANISH
G-55
*IL-10
J2M5
*Ki-27ko
*Ki-27otsu
*La-7R
Letov_S-328
MC-200_I
MC-200_III
MC-200_VII
MC-200_VIIFB
MC-202_III
MC-202_VII
MC-202_XII
MC-205_I
MC-205_III
Mosquito_B_MkIV
Mosquito_FB_MkVI
N1K2-Ja
Re-2000
*Yak-3R
A-20C
Do-335A-0
*Pe-2 series 1
*Pe-2 series 84
*Pe-2 series 110
*Pe-2 series 359
*Pe-3
*Pe-3 bis
F2A-3(Multi1)
F2A-3(USA)

Cockpits:

D-XXI_Finn3_Early
D-XXI_Finn3_Late
Do-335
J2M3
Ju-88A4_Bombard
Ju-88A4_Gunner_1
Ju-88A4_Gunner_2
Ju-88A4_Gunner_3
Ju-88A4_Pilot
MC-200
MC-202
MC-205
Mosquito_FB_MkVI
A-20C
A-20C_bombadier
A-20C_lower_gun
A-20C_upper_gun
CW-21
*IL-10
*IL-10_gunner
*Ki-27
TempestMkV
*Pe-2 series 1
*Pe-2 series 84
*Pe-2 series 110
*Pe-2 series 359
*Pe-3
*Pe-3 bis



Next new small patch that we plan to release in the end of August is v4.02 and will contains:

- Changes and tunes in new FM.
- Yak-7B, 1942 with M-105PF engine
- P-47D boosted for use of 150 octan (almost P-47M performance).


Please read all above with great attention that do not have misunderstanding in future. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hurri-Khan
05-19-2006, 07:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
Hurri-Khan, you are one knowledgable mongrel! Far out! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well one tends to pick up something from quite long-term projects like this. Bits of info here and there..
Not like I would be an aviation historian or something. I bet both Viikate or Serval know about same amount on D.XXI as me. They're just too lazy fokkers to write it (I have that tendency too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)..


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

HotelBushranger
05-19-2006, 09:03 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Sounds like you need that Java mate http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Viikate, I was googling Fokker when I found a forum site saying a bloke was giving about 2.4 G of Fokker stuff to those who wanted, and you were the first poster. Do you have that stuff, and if so how is it?

BrewsterPilot
05-19-2006, 09:44 AM
Ok, Viikate, Hurri-Khan and Bush. I've got a question for you:

HOW THE BLOODY **** WERE YOU ABLE TO MAKE THIS SCREENSHOT,
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5636/fokkerfurysmall8xv.jpg
ALL THE SKINS AND THE PICTURES OF THE SKINS IN-GAME??? When I searched I couldn't find the D.XXI even as AI plane!!!!!


Tell me bloody tell me!

HotelBushranger
05-19-2006, 10:13 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Almost on page 2! Bump!

Ruy Horta
05-20-2006, 01:48 AM
What would it take to turn a Finnish early cockpit into a dutch one?

Dimensionaut_
05-20-2006, 03:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hurri-Khan:
Well one tends to pick up something from quite long-term projects like this. Bits of info here and there..
Not like I would be an aviation historian or something. I bet both Viikate or Serval know about same amount on D.XXI as me. They're just too lazy fokkers to write it (I have that tendency too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)..


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt; </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some questions were specificly directed to you, that's why http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But to support your post one the version numbers.

Fokker NEVER used D.XXI-# designations.
If you read about 'version numbers' Then it should be the Finnish Sarja's
The Dutch and Danish version were just called D.XXI, even though there were differences.
So, Popular in these days we talk about the Dutch, Danish and Finnish D.XXI, where the Finnish ones are divided into the Sarja's one to five.
So, forget about the Danish version being D.XXI-1 and Dutch D.XXI-2 etc. Since someone picked that up totally wrong. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

@Ruy: Quite a lot, the instrument panel differs much in instruments used and instrument placement. Handles and gears on the sides are also not exactly the same.
But let's hope the BoF add-on will get rolling....

Hurri-Khan
05-20-2006, 04:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Then it should be the Finnish Sarja's
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sarja just means series, it's okay to use english term http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
What would it take to turn a Finnish early cockpit into a dutch one?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much a miracle at this point..
Serval can lecture on detail differences, but the dutch D.XXI in museum is a replica and the cockpit is somewhat different from original. However both Viikate and I wanted to make dutch one too..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Grin Sounds like you need that Java mate
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think I'll have a beer instead.. cheers! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

BrewsterPilot
05-20-2006, 05:52 AM
Alright, I've got a question for you. You may call me an idiot for asking this, but . . .

I always thought we had an AI model of the Fokker D.XXI in-game, you know, the model without a cockpit like the PE-8.

Now when I looked, however, I couldn't find even an AI model of it. The D.XXI simply didn't exist in the game! So how did you take those in-game screenshots showing all of the ~70 D.XXI skins made by Hurri-Khan and <STRIKE>Viiku</STRIKE> Viikate, and how did you, Bushie, make that Fokker D.XXI vs. I-16 screenshot posted in the "High Resolution Screens" thread?

Am I missing something, and if so, what??????

PLEASE HELP! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

Ruy Horta
05-20-2006, 07:10 AM
Dutch Profiles is working an a new D.21 Profile

http://www.dutchprofile.nl/images/1144665306_coverprof2.jpg

Fortcoming release the Fokker D.XXI NethA
The Luftwaffe lost almost 400 aircraft during the invasion in Holland in may 1940. The D.XXI did a great job during the invasion, and shot down several German aircraft. This is the story...

http://www.dutchprofile.nl/profile.php?id=30

This booklet will be the 5th in a series which can be compared to the British "Warpaint" booklets. Short histories, heavy on the pictorial content and a close study of camouflage and markings. The best thing: they are dual language and inexpensive!

I personally recommend their Sea Fury, Mustang and Spitfire booklets and can't wait for this latest one to be published as well!

Hurri-Khan
05-20-2006, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BrewsterPilot:
Alright, I've got a question for you. You may call me an idiot for asking this, but . . .

I always thought we had an AI model of the Fokker D.XXI in-game, you know, the model without a cockpit like the PE-8.

Now when I looked, however, I couldn't find even an AI model of it. The D.XXI simply didn't exist in the game! So how did you take those in-game screenshots showing all of the ~70 D.XXI skins made by Hurri-Khan and <STRIKE>Viiku</STRIKE> Viikate, and how did you, Bushie, make that Fokker D.XXI vs. I-16 screenshot posted in the "High Resolution Screens" thread?

Am I missing something, and if so, what??????

PLEASE HELP! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Viikuna" modelled D.XXI versions and 'pits with 3Dstudio max (also that hawk-75/P-36).
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/artikkelit/virtuaal...i/#fokkerd21_viikate (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/artikkelit/virtuaalinen_mallarointi/#fokkerd21_viikate)
I drew the base skins & cockpit textures with corel photopaint.

There was supposed to be D.XXI in original FB, but I guess 1C run outta time. Viikate's models were later supplied to 1C and the dutch one has been seen as AI during development updates.
http://www.pacific-fighters.com/en/screenshots.php?mode=&page=10

HBR did some creative image editing there http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


&gt;&gt;&gt;-H-K---&gt;

Dimensionaut_
05-20-2006, 12:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
Dutch Profiles is working an a new D.21 Profile

http://www.dutchprofile.nl/images/1144665306_coverprof2.jpg

[i]Fortcoming release the Fokker D.XXI NethA
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the heads up Ruy. It's a very nice series indeed.

Ruy Horta
05-20-2006, 01:02 PM
Boerman was part of the Camouflage en Kentekens so we can expect this booklet to become the alpha and the omega on Dutch D.21 camouflage and markings.

The publisher is planning a wide variety, we can only hope to see many more types covered (Hawk 75, CW.21, Mod.139, P-40, etc etc etc).

You can buy matching decals, which might interest some.

BrewsterPilot
05-21-2006, 02:34 PM
*B
*U
*M
*P

This was almost on page three!

F19_Orheim
05-21-2006, 02:37 PM
Oh dear, that is SERIOUS!!! thanx Brewster

HotelBushranger
05-22-2006, 04:03 AM
Sorry I haven't been in the thread boys, been out n about for once http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Red_Storm
05-22-2006, 12:07 PM
However much I'd like the D.XXI, a G.I would really be heaven in my opinion. I was sold after I saw the Me-109 guncam footage of the Emil shooting a G.I "Jachtkruiser"; when the first tracer rounds passed the G.I, it just pulled horizontally out of the picture, it was truly unbelievable how it just rolled and pulled out of the image... brilliant aircraft. Ofcourse, the Me-109 had no hope of following the G.I in that turn, that's where the guncam footage ended.

Dimensionaut_
05-23-2006, 03:39 AM
Can you tell me where you saw that gunfootage?
Sounds very interesting.

Both the D.XXI and G.1 are favorites of me. Unfortunately the G.1 isn't really a valid aircraft in FB. Let's hope for the best in the future http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HotelBushranger
05-23-2006, 04:10 AM
Aye, sounds good http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Good links you blokes posted in the previous page too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

HotelBushranger
05-24-2006, 03:27 AM
Bumpski http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif