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TimeToCrusade
01-30-2019, 09:54 PM
So since vortiger was announced, I see hords of people screaming everywhere he is gonna be totally balanced. I dont understand so I need your help to understand this, here are a few of my questions:
-Is a move thta counters all other moves and feats (which is about a few hundreds in total) and is countered by only one balanced? Even tho some moves that have multiple counters are op ?
-Is a guaranteed shieldbash into 20dmg when hitting a light (even blocked) is a balanaced low stam punish ?
-Is a new glad zone balanced ?
-Balanced means he is not stronger than other characters right? So this means that, for exemple vortiger is not stronger in any way than let's say..lawbringer ? do you agree with that?
-How do you justify his feats ? (giving free shields to ally, deleting vengeance shields)
-Condering his feats how can you imagine anything else than 8 vortigers every game this season?

And since you all seem to be expert at the game and overall geniuses I have other questions if you can enlighten me with your wisdom
-why does nuxia receives a buff within a month of her release while LB is dog**** since the beta and has only been nerf time and time again? Does this mean that LB is actually op and nuxia super weak?
-Why do the devs said they would nerf warlord charge without compensation and then give him a huge buff and dont touch the charge? while lb is still ****? LB>warlord ?
-why do they "fix" lb animations (by making them 200ms longer) and dont touch JJ's animations? LB animations were super broken while JJ's match perfecly his hits?

Hope you geniuses have answers for a lost soul pls (:

TL_pser
01-30-2019, 10:22 PM
I don't have that much thoughts to all those questions but just let me pick some of them.

"Balanced means he is not stronger than other characters right?"
Nope, at least people didn't often use the word that way.

"Is a new glad zone balanced ?"
I would say the zone doesn't look that close to glad zone.

"Why do the devs said they would nerf warlord charge without compensation and then give him a huge buff and dont touch the charge?"
Actually,
"Shield Charge is now active only after 500ms (down from 300ms)."
You can see that in Patch Notes v2.04.0.

Sorry for not answering to your questions directly. O_O
I'm just here to show some concern about what you're saying.

ChampionRuby50g
01-30-2019, 10:24 PM
1. Well considering how easy it is to GB someone or heavy feint into GB, yeah probably balanced. Could maybe do with some tweaks after the general population has played but we will see.
2. 20 damage is probably too high, 15-18 damage would be good. But in saying that heís not the only one who can get that high damage from a bash when opponents OOS.
3. I dunno
4. Iím gonna stop you right there. Thatís the ****test comparison Iíve ever seen. You are comparing right now arguably the worst hero in the entire cast with a hero thatís been released very soon, that has all these gimmicks an the devs have used the knowledge theyíve gained over 3 years too create BP, whereas LB has more or less remained the same since year 1. Vortiger is definetly stronger than LB all round, youíre just been naive with this.
5. His feats do seem really strong, but they focus heavily on support so it could work out.
6. Yeah I can imagine players wanting some variety and playing a different character.
7. No, it shows LBs issues are a lot more complex, something that the devs only recently figured out for themselves as they believed that LB was in a good state due to high win %, despite the whole community crying out for changes. Instead Roman acts high and mighty and tells us players we need to ďget good.Ē

This genius is over replying to your questions. Hope your soul gets found soon.

TimeToCrusade
01-30-2019, 10:44 PM
"Why do the devs said they would nerf warlord charge without compensation and then give him a huge buff and dont touch the charge?"
Actually,
"Shield Charge is now active only after 500ms (down from 300ms)."
That doesnt change anything for a move that is a few seconds long

I’m gonna stop you right there. That’s the ****test comparison I’ve ever seen
May I know why ? They are both in the same game no? That means LB should be able to stand hiw own vs vortiger no? Also the devs had 2 years to fix him , yet a hero that will be released tomorrow will be better, I dont understand why they would do that, and why people say its fine, or maybe the people saying that are the same who say LB is op or the same as those who pick op heroes, bm and insult people who play balanced heroes, you think this is possible ?

TL_pser
01-30-2019, 11:15 PM
"That doesnt change anything for a move that is a few seconds long"
Then, would you say 600ms and 400ms aren't that different?
The answer might be useful in some aspects.

btw, you already know LB's changes are in progress, don't you?

TimeToCrusade
01-30-2019, 11:44 PM
the diff between 600 and 400ms light is 50%, so it is huge, also warlords usually trigger the charge a bit before hitting you obviously, so all this is gonna do is delay the start a bit, and 200ms while running is nothing, and the buffs that com with this "nerf" mean warlord now has waaaaay more dmg of a wallsplat and thgrow on the ground, which can still be triggered by the charge btw. The obvious nerf would have been to make it so you can't wallsplat or throw on the ground with it but whatever.

Yeah "in progress" they said that like 4 months ago for removing dodgeroll and its still here, and I should remember you that they promised a long arm nerf some time ago so the "work in progress " is probably not what you think it is. Also, even if its a buff (it wont be) , does that change anything to the fact that playing LB was playing at a disavantage for 2 whole years now?

Lowhappyface123
01-31-2019, 12:25 AM
Alright I have some answers
Your comparing a lot of the changes to how lawbring wasnít changed, I would think that Is way easier to fix characters like Nuxia as they donít have to think as much because not as many people are devoted to characters. The dodge roll- I could only imagine one reason and thatís that it is hard to fix a core mechanic without breaking something else, lawbringer- first off they are learning how to balance better and lawbringer is a fan favorite and so they have to fix him without hurting his fans itíd be like if they removed long arm and so I feel as though we have something nice in store for him. As for vortiger, we canít say anything until ATLEAST a month as every new character is OP as you have to learn how to fight them

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 12:59 AM
the whole "he's new you have to learn " speech is utter BS, its always easier to kill little twats who paid to play op chars early than face them a month in. Its the people who play the op char that need time to learn, not the people playing against them. And what is there to learn huh? This game has 0 mechanical dephts to it, everybody saw what bulwark does, thats all there is to learn, you won't learn anything new by playing against him for a month other that people like me were right. This is gonna be season 2 2.0

ChampionRuby50g
01-31-2019, 01:02 AM
They are in the same game yes, but no two characters are equal. Itís not that hard to pick up. Because BP is looking like heís stronger than LB, does that mean BP is OP? No, it doesnít. It means that LB is weak, in fact UP. So your comparison is shocking, because itís comparing the weakest out of 22 characters with a new hero that would have been made reasonably well.

Thatís like me saying ď Snipers and assault rifles are both in Battlefield 5. So snipers and assault rifles should play the same, no? Thereís also multiple raid bosses in the Destiny franchise. Oh but they are all in the same game, so they should all be equally as hard and have no differences, no?Ē

Iím a Rep 60 LB. I know heís weak compared to the cast. So I know everything the devs couldíve done but their focus has been on pumping out ****ty memes and ****ty content to draw new players in, which was the whole idea behind MF. There has been plenty of suggestions, but the devs work at a snail pace and with their head in the sand. Once you understand this, everything else makes sense.

Siegfried-Z
01-31-2019, 01:07 AM
-Is a move thta counters all other moves and feats (which is about a few hundreds in total) and is countered by only one balanced? Even tho some moves that have multiple counters are op ?
-Is a guaranteed shieldbash into 20dmg when hitting a light (even blocked) is a balanaced low stam punish ?
-Is a new glad zone balanced ?
-Balanced means he is not stronger than other characters right? So this means that, for exemple vortiger is not stronger in any way than let's say..lawbringer ? do you agree with that?
-How do you justify his feats ? (giving free shields to ally, deleting vengeance shields)
-Condering his feats how can you imagine anything else than 8 vortigers every game this season?

And since you all seem to be expert at the game and overall geniuses I have other questions if you can enlighten me with your wisdom
-why does nuxia receives a buff within a month of her release while LB is dog**** since the beta and has only been nerf time and time again? Does this mean that LB is actually op and nuxia super weak?
-Why do the devs said they would nerf warlord charge without compensation and then give him a huge buff and dont touch the charge? while lb is still ****? LB>warlord ?
-why do they "fix" lb animations (by making them 200ms longer) and dont touch JJ's animations? LB animations were super broken while JJ's match perfecly his hits?

Hope you geniuses have answers for a lost soul pls (:

-The most important is that we all have a basic tool which beat his stance, it's called GB.
-His guaranteed SB against an OOS opponent is a bug which will be fix soon i hope (Tiandi had the same during the test)
-No, his zone is 100ms slower than Glad one
-Balance doesn't mean every char are perfectly equal, it is mean they are all viable and no one are strongly above or below others. Considering he looks strong but not more than Warden, Conq, Zerk, Shaolin etc, i would say he is.
-His feats is just an inferior version of Cent or JJ one's because he has to be close to his mates to makes it works while the others can just do it from anywhere (speaking about 4th one). His 3rd isn't stronger than any damaging 3rd feats which can hit 3 guys once for 2 bar of health. It is just new. His 2nd feat is the best.
-I pretty easly imagine 80% of BP in the next month.. but not because of his feats. because he looks damn cool and fun.

Rest of your post is just frustrating because LB got nothing and tbh i can understand :/ But Nuxia and JJ are MF char = $..that's it.

You're talking a lot about his feats so i assume you're a 4v4 player. If i may, BP has half of his kit based on punish so it require his opponent to attack and other half is mostly SB which feed a lot of revenge.
Plus he has only one very telegraphed UB for 30dmg, no HA and no side dodge attack.. he is going to be a strong duelist and a strong defensive char but not a strong ganker don't worry ;)

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 01:19 AM
-The most important is that we all have a basic tool which beat his stance, it's called GB.

We all have the tool to counter light spam and bashes, its called parrying and dodging, yet those are still problematic...uhm

-Balance doesn't mean every char are perfectly equal, it is mean they are all viable and no one are strongly above or below others. Considering he looks strong but not more than Warden, Conq, Zerk, Shaolin etc, i would say he is.

Is LB viable ? no ? game unbalanced, simple as that

-His feats is just an inferior version of Cent or JJ one's because he has to be close to his mates to makes it works while the others can just do it from anywhere (speaking about 4th one). His 3rd isn't stronger than any damaging 3rd feats which can hit 3 guys once for 2 bar of health. It is just new. His 2nd feat is the best.

If only there was a way to always move with your teamates...oh wait ever heard of season 2 ? (:

-I pretty easly imagine 80% of BP in the next month.. but not because of his feats. because he looks damn cool and fun.

So 80% of people playing a single char but he is balanced ? Yeah people always play for fun and not to win, season 2 cent was so fun ^^


he is going to be a strong duelist and a strong defensive char but not a strong ganker don't worry

go 4 vortiger: spam shield bash, delete revenge shield, spam more shieldbash, rince and repeat
not a good ganker ^^

Siegfried-Z
01-31-2019, 10:56 AM
-The most important is that we all have a basic tool which beat his stance, it's called GB.

We all have the tool to counter light spam and bashes, its called parrying and dodging, yet those are still problematic...uhm

-Balance doesn't mean every char are perfectly equal, it is mean they are all viable and no one are strongly above or below others. Considering he looks strong but not more than Warden, Conq, Zerk, Shaolin etc, i would say he is.

Is LB viable ? no ? game unbalanced, simple as that

-His feats is just an inferior version of Cent or JJ one's because he has to be close to his mates to makes it works while the others can just do it from anywhere (speaking about 4th one). His 3rd isn't stronger than any damaging 3rd feats which can hit 3 guys once for 2 bar of health. It is just new. His 2nd feat is the best.

If only there was a way to always move with your teamates...oh wait ever heard of season 2 ? (:

-I pretty easly imagine 80% of BP in the next month.. but not because of his feats. because he looks damn cool and fun.

So 80% of people playing a single char but he is balanced ? Yeah people always play for fun and not to win, season 2 cent was so fun ^^


he is going to be a strong duelist and a strong defensive char but not a strong ganker don't worry

go 4 vortiger: spam shield bash, delete revenge shield, spam more shieldbash, rince and repeat
not a good ganker ^^

-Except Conq SB i Don't think any others bash are really that hard to handle. And parry wasn't made to counter light spam at all, the purpose of parry is just, parry, doesn't matter what. They didn't include it to the game in order to counter light spam. Don't create your own FH game.
And anyway these are others topics. We talk about Bullwark stance. The fact is BP gonna try this kind of often which is a strengh but he gonna be more vulnerable to GB than others too.

-I didn't say LB is viable, even if in 4v4 we can still say he is average. I say BP is. Is the game balanced, again it's another story. But let me say to you than this is utopic to think one day all char gonna have a 50% win rate in a game such as FH. If the game reach one day 47%-53% it would already be amazing.

-Sorry but i Don't get what you mean with season 2 etc It looks you just hate a char you didn't even try for the moment. BP can't give Shield to his mates if he is not next to them, that's a fact. JJ for example can juste stay on a zone to score some points and give a shield to the 3 others while they are fighting on the opposite zone.

-If a char is really fun and good looking, how can you blame people to play him? Anayway this is only speculation, let's see how it goes in the game before complaining Don't you think?

-What makes a Char a good Ganker : Big Dmg, UB, Some cutscene, some moove which match in 2 or 3v1 fights. BP has none of them, no cutscene, only one UB he can perform from Bullwark and Always come from the same side for only 30dmg, his dmg are Nothing special and to end it he can only wait in bullwark in order to bait a target switch from the opponent or SB and give him lots of revenge.
Yes he has the shied broke feat, but maybe many people gonna use an offensive 3rd feat and not this one and anyway as it is a 3rd one he's is not going to do it each time he fight someone in revenge.
You talk about a full team of 4 BP.. tbh any team of 4 same char are horrible to fight.
4 JJ, 4 Raiders, 4 Conq, 4 Kensei, 4 Warden, 4 Cent, 4 Shugo .. lots of others but these cases are Always annoying.

And sorry but even 4 LB = Impale and bombs every 10 secs…

You just look like you're frustrated for something you didn't even experienced yet. Give him a shot at least.

Klingentaenz3r
01-31-2019, 11:22 AM
excuse to budge in but he is very viable as part of a gank as he is the only hero in the game that can disable a victim from throwing out their haymakers and putting them right on the ground for the gank mates to take advantage of. Only heroes that go with precise attacks on just one foe can work around that. Everyone else who was good at anti gank before due to their wide arch attacks (like kensei or raider with his zone or JJ) will be obliterated easily from now on.

Plus he can remove the entire revenge shield of an opponent (lvl 3 feat though so that is going to be used occasionally).

Even if the PB would be targeted and guardbroken out of his Bulwark stance his team mates can use this moment to throw in their heavies.

Mark my words, I am pretty sure that he without a doubt will excel in ganking situations.

Ubi-Jimothy
01-31-2019, 02:05 PM
Hey folks,

Just wanted to chime in here. It's completely fine to speculate and talk about what you think might be wrong/right with a character, but I wanted to make two key points here:

1) The character isn't available to play yet. At least give it a chance and then come back to us with your feedback.

2) @OP, don't brush other peoples opinions or thoughts off and swear at them because they disagree with you. That's not how constructive discussion happens.

We'll be reading all these threads in the coming days, and I hope you guys enjoy the Black Prior!

Regards,

Jim.

Knight_Raime
01-31-2019, 02:58 PM
Hey folks,

Just wanted to chime in here. It's completely fine to speculate and talk about what you think might be wrong/right with a character, but I wanted to make two key points here:

1) The character isn't available to play yet. At least give it a chance and then come back to us with your feedback.

2) @OP, don't brush other peoples opinions or thoughts off and swear at them because they disagree with you. That's not how constructive discussion happens.

We'll be reading all these threads in the coming days, and I hope you guys enjoy the Black Prior!

Regards,

Jim.

While there is something to this "try before you give opinions" statement for most of the complaints being brought forth there is one that doesn't need further testing. And this is because the devs already dealt with this on a seperate hero before said hero launched.

Black prior currently gets a guaranteed bash in 3 situations. After a crushing counter from an opening light, When an opponent blocks his light attack while Black prior is in revenge, and when an opponent blocks his light when the opponent is out of stamina.

Tiandi was able to get a guaranteed palm strike from a crushing counter and when an opponent blocked his dashing light when the opponent was out of stamina. The devs at the request of the community fixed his ability to get his palm strike when an opponent who was oos blocked Tiandi's dash light.

The community wants the same fix here. Meaning we want the devs to remove his ability to get a guaranteed bash attack when blocking his light in a revenge/out of stamina situation.

Herbstlicht
01-31-2019, 04:23 PM
Hmm, I am rather sure he will get nerfed. Not saying he deserves it though. I mean not yet. But I think this guy will be insanely strong in the hands of a strong player. Thus, at some point, we will see players dominating like never before, because now we got a hero that can beat every move. Not saying its op, it can be countered. But strong players in favorable matches are going to seem even stronger now.

Anyway, there is one thing that seems really, really good to me from a design perspective. He is a heavy. He has a lovely defence and really seems to be able to make it through clutches by staying alive and having a good defence. Compared to JJ, who is more about parrying into punish - something that thanks to overtuned numbers workes very well and easy as well. However, I like BP concept more. He is less likely to hit your mates. He is less likely to hit every one around him, so fighting with him is something people might be happier to do. And this is a nice direction.

Overall, I'd say Ubi is improving. Not perfecting. I mean who was so stupid and thought this guy should be invincible while he flips players? Thats nonsene. But despite this nonsense that I kinda see as a bug that might get fixed - .or not. Of course besides other bugs.
And with that - what bugs me most is shugis unsynched attacks.

Ubi, please .. do .. sync .. animations .. nicely .. thank you very much :)

So in the end, I really look forward to the new hero, the meta changes he brings and the experience ubi gets from him.
Keep this game alive guys, I still love it even despite having a hard time dedicating time to it those days. Will be better come march :3 But professionel duty first, then enterinment -.- ^^

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 04:43 PM
-Sorry but i Don't get what you mean with season 2

Yeah right you're a new player, let me explain: in season 2 cent was the only available pick in 4v4 because ganking as him was stupidly good, and so season 2 was the worst thing ever, 4v4 was unplayable if you didnt play cent, and this is gonna be the exact same thing

-I didn't say LB is viable, even if in 4v4 we can still say he is average.

you obviously dont play him to say that: impaling charge is garbage, shove on block only feeds revenge , long arm is useless, and the bombs can only be used once and deal no damage now. I once tried raider in 4v4 and oh boy what a brand new world I walked into (then i stopped cause raider is boring)

-If a char is really fun and good looking, how can you blame people to play him?

People do not give a **** about fun, especially in this game, if tomorow there is a new hero that looks like a turd but has a button that grants immediate victory, everyone will play him all the time. I have seen people who prefer ragequit and penalty over a defeat, and people that prefer to saty afk on a point should it grant victory, talk about fun..

Yes he has the shied broke feat, but maybe many people gonna use an offensive 3rd feat and not this one and anyway as it is a 3rd one he's is not going to do it each time he fight someone in revenge.

Sooooo we just hope that they dont use it ? We just hope that people dont pick the brand new op particular feat ? Also I should learn you that a level 3 feat can be unlocked in a single teamfight if you kill like 3 ennemies

As for the 4 shugoki, its not annoying, its the most fun you can have for sure, but its **** (or at least was since season 9 is coming out right now) and don't even compare this to season 2 cent. Speaking of s2 i should remind that Ubi had some sense back then and hotfixed shinobi, despite it being waaaaaaaaaaaaaay below what vortiger is like

To be honest just play 900 of the worst char in the game, your opinions might change slightly

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 05:27 PM
btw I have no idea how to quote ppl

Help

TL_pser
01-31-2019, 05:33 PM
btw I have no idea how to quote ppl

Help

Press "+" buttons next to "Reply" buttons then you'll see "Reply With Quote".

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 06:42 PM
ty

Prior_Heahmund
01-31-2019, 07:13 PM
Hey OP? If you think LB has not been buffed you have not been here for long. Go back to the kids table.

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 08:48 PM
talking about the first buff he received ? ages ago and he is still Z tier after that so you can stop talking now, thanks

Szalej.
01-31-2019, 08:51 PM
Hey OP? If you think LB has not been buffed you have not been here for long. Go back to the kids table.

I was hoping to get Conq rework be like vortiger. Instead we have the same cancer hero still standing. 2 months since we've been promised with big balance changes after Wu Lin release, all we really got was some bug fixes, another cancer released and shugo rework. I've been never such dissappointed

Siegfried-Z
01-31-2019, 10:14 PM
-Sorry but i Don't get what you mean with season 2

Yeah right you're a new player, let me explain: in season 2 cent was the only available pick in 4v4 because ganking as him was stupidly good, and so season 2 was the worst thing ever, 4v4 was unplayable if you didnt play cent, and this is gonna be the exact same thing

-I didn't say LB is viable, even if in 4v4 we can still say he is average.

you obviously dont play him to say that: impaling charge is garbage, shove on block only feeds revenge , long arm is useless, and the bombs can only be used once and deal no damage now. I once tried raider in 4v4 and oh boy what a brand new world I walked into (then i stopped cause raider is boring)

-If a char is really fun and good looking, how can you blame people to play him?

People do not give a **** about fun, especially in this game, if tomorow there is a new hero that looks like a turd but has a button that grants immediate victory, everyone will play him all the time. I have seen people who prefer ragequit and penalty over a defeat, and people that prefer to saty afk on a point should it grant victory, talk about fun..

Yes he has the shied broke feat, but maybe many people gonna use an offensive 3rd feat and not this one and anyway as it is a 3rd one he's is not going to do it each time he fight someone in revenge.

Sooooo we just hope that they dont use it ? We just hope that people dont pick the brand new op particular feat ? Also I should learn you that a level 3 feat can be unlocked in a single teamfight if you kill like 3 ennemies

As for the 4 shugoki, its not annoying, its the most fun you can have for sure, but its **** (or at least was since season 9 is coming out right now) and don't even compare this to season 2 cent. Speaking of s2 i should remind that Ubi had some sense back then and hotfixed shinobi, despite it being waaaaaaaaaaaaaay below what vortiger is like

To be honest just play 900 of the worst char in the game, your opinions might change slightly

I am not, i play since day 1 man so hold the horse and keep judgment for you.

You are just not clear in your words. So you were just talking about Cent.. i was there in s2 and had no problem with him.
LB is only still playable in 4v4 that's why i said that and that's the Truth.

The rest is just your opinion. If you want to hate everything and everyone this is your business. Don't care

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 10:28 PM
The rest is just your opinion. If you want to hate everything and everyone this is your business. Don't care[/QUOTE]

Everytime someone says that something is not perfect "LMAO YOU HATER STFU HAHAHAHAHAH" you guys are impossible to argue with, you only accept to talk with people that say everything is great, nothing is op we just have to wait and see blablabla

And LB si not viable in 4v4, litteraly everything else is a better option, thats not what I call viable, despite trying so hard to make LB work

TimeToCrusade
01-31-2019, 10:34 PM
****