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Siegfried-Z
01-25-2019, 07:08 PM
There are not that much discussions about Black Priors strenghts, opinion etc so here i would like to share what i think about him.

1/ His look

It is of course very subjective but i believe BP gonna get a unanimous decision among players because he looks very good and badass as hell.
His shield looks like he came right from hell and his Executions are really nice.

2/ His Kit

To me, BP kit is very close to Conqueror one but with JJ lights and Glad zone.
Let me explain why.

-Glad zone because this is exactly the same except the following light isn't automatic. So it is even better because you don't even have to waste some stam if the guy dodge the bash.

-JJ Lights because of the 500ms L-L chain with big dmg 15-20dmg (of course with less range).

-The biggest part, why does he looks very similar than Conq on the others point. Well he can SB from neutral, after a light or a heavy and during a heavy by softfeinting it. Just as Conq. It looks his SB is a bit easier to dodge than Conq one but in another hand it guaranteed more dmg (20). So i would say their SB game are on par.

The other point is his Full Block. It is better in some aspects than Conq one and worst in some others :
Better points : Can deny UB and Melee attacks - Can land a feintable UB heavy from the stance - Looks he can came into full block faster and it cost less stam - The best, he can heal himself by keeping his full block

Worst points : He has to perform a crushing counter to punish mooves (similar to Shaolin) and can't just wait and block if he wants the punish - Can't go in full block by softfeinting a heavy - Can't SB or Zone from right from it

He also have some nice little things as Foward dodge heavy and superior block on lights and front dodge.

3/ His mix up

Of course he gonna have a lot of mix up going for him between his amount of bashs, softfeint, hardfeint and Full block.

But i already think about 2 kind of tricky situations for the opponent.

-First is about full block. Let's think at what happen once the guy go into it.
If you attack stupidly you got punish whatever you do (normal attack, UB, Bash etc).If you don't pay attention at his offense you get punish because he can land a feintable UB from that. If you do nothing, he heal himself.
So you have to attack, the solution looks to be the GB. Many people already says GB gonna easly punish this stance, but i don't think so.

Conq mains already show it to people. That's a pretty classic Conq mix up to go into Full block, wait 1 sec to push you to attempt a GB and at the same moment they land a heavy, which properly timed beat your GB and you are oblige to be hit.

So, i believe his full block gonna be really tricky for his opponent.

-Second tricky part is on his Heavy finisher.
If you noticed he has a kind of Shaolin QI stance 50/50 on that.
Because if he can softfeint his heavy into SB for 20dmg, people gonna dodge it. But as his Heavy finisher has Undodgeable property... Well 40dmg hit hard ^^
I think it's gonna be one of his classic mix up too.

I wanted to share my feelings about these two in particulars but of course he gonna have lots of others options by mixing SB, full block bait or Ub, Undodgeable and classics Hardfeints.

4/ So what tier for him ?

On the paper he looks very strong. But as his SB looks not that hard to react to, i think Vortiger counter gonna be to turtle and fight back on his offense and people gonna do it pretty fastly once used to his kit.

So my opinon is, BP looks strong but not OP, would say top of A tiers in both duel and 4v4 (strong feats too) and he looks damn fun to play.

That's my first impressions but i have to wait and put my own hands on him.
What's yours guys ?

PS : Do not only says like "SB spam machine cancer etc" but i'm looking for constructive opinion.

Kargish1
01-25-2019, 08:16 PM
Can't wait to flip shamans jumping at me

Sneakly20
01-25-2019, 08:23 PM
His undodgeable second heavy can be soft feinted into SB? I guess I missed that part. Thatís awesome, I was worried he would be too easy to read or wait out as far as his offense goes. And tbh I still do.

rottmeister
01-25-2019, 08:42 PM
Not particularly fond of the look, but I'll figure something out. He's really edgy and I'm not really about that. Gameplaywise he looks fun to play, not in an OP kind of way. I like the fluidity of his attacks and the new mechanic seems interesting. I wonder if you can flip a shoulderbashing Warden, a shieldbashing Conq and a toe stabbing Gladiator. If so then I need him NOW, lol. I like that he has a crushing counter/superior light. I'm getting a bit bored of the game so I think I should try something new to spice up my gameplay. i haven't touched any heavy heroes at all so I think it would be a good idea to start with the Black Prior.

bannex19
01-25-2019, 08:51 PM
Not particularly fond of the look, but I'll figure something out. He's really edgy and I'm not really about that. Gameplaywise he looks fun to play, not in an OP kind of way. I like the fluidity of his attacks and the new mechanic seems interesting. I wonder if you can flip a shoulderbashing Warden, a shieldbashing Conq and a toe stabbing Gladiator. If so then I need him NOW, lol. I like that he has a crushing counter/superior light. I'm getting a bit bored of the game so I think I should try something new to spice up my gameplay. i haven't touched any heavy heroes at all so I think it would be a good idea to start with the Black Prior.

Rott is just mad his crouching tiger hidden dancer isn't announced yet. Hopefully the wulin will have elven ears and a pet kitten for you.

Velentix
01-25-2019, 10:18 PM
The one thing I can say for certain is that his feats will have to be changed/nerfed. Just imagine having two BPs on a team using their feats. Thats a gankfest where they are quite literally invincible.

rottmeister
01-25-2019, 10:31 PM
Rott is just mad his crouching tiger hidden dancer isn't announced yet. Hopefully the wulin will have elven ears and a pet kitten for you.

I mean, I wouldn't say no to a character that incorporates dances in their moveset >.>
Not really fond of fantasy looks either, lol. Never really been through an edgy/emo phase (well my humour is quite edgy) or played fantasy style games. I've seen some ideas thrown around having pets (such as the wolves from story mode) as feats, but that would be obnoxious as ****. Imagine facing 4 heroes that have a pet as their 4th feat at the same time.

BlowHard74728
01-25-2019, 10:43 PM
Im curious to see if his shield flip can ledge enemy players

Ubiflowessence
01-25-2019, 10:59 PM
Hmm, some pretty interesting thoughts on Black Prior. I'm digging it! :)

RealJayDee1984
01-25-2019, 11:23 PM
The Black Prior looks like a character that will perfectly fulfill all my basic For Honor desires - look awesome while slaying AI heroes (so that he can get more cool looking stuff to wear while he's slaying AI heroes). Also he's a sword and shield fighter, and a Knight faction one at that, so that by itself is just amazing. First DLC character in quite a while I could see myself playing a lot (like, a lot).

So yeah, I'm more out of my depth these days when it comes to PvP and the finer points of the combat mechanics than ever before, but I'd say I'm still having a ton of fun, and the Black Prior will hopefully contribute to that in a major way.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
01-26-2019, 12:14 AM
I like how he looks. I wanted a crowned character for a long time. ..I want to bedazzle it with jewels though and make it black and gold.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 12:17 AM
He's got a better conq mix up game with his bash that leads into either another bash or a 40 damage undodgable heavy which iirc can also be soft feinted into bash.
His zone is a better glads because you can chain into a 20 damage light or a 40 damage undodgable heavy that can be soft feinted into his 500ms bash. These are delayable inputs too.
The mix up he has after landing a light is directly comparable to shaolin's light into qi mix up but better in a lot of ways.

Defensively speaking he's got 500ms superior block lights that chain into some offensive pressure. His bullwark can be used nearly on reaction to most things and counters everything that isn't a guard break. It can flip two people at a time and external attacks. Depending on the speeds of his attacks and how much he can delay his bash we're looking at high A tier to bottom S tier for duels and S tier in 4's due to being a direct counter to optimal 4's tactics plus his feats. I am willing to bet most premade teams are going to be running BP and JJ as mandatory picks.

EDIT: forgot to mention that BP can also soft cancel the end recovery of heavies and lights with bullwark.

Sneakly20
01-26-2019, 12:27 AM
He's got a better conq mix up game with his bash that leads into either another bash or a 40 damage undodgable heavy which iirc can also be soft feinted into bash.
His zone is a better glads because you can chain into a 20 damage light or a 40 damage undodgable heavy that can be soft feinted into his 500ms bash. These are delayable inputs too.
The mix up he has after landing a light is directly comparable to shaolin's light into qi mix up but better in a lot of ways.

Defensively speaking he's got 500ms superior block lights that chain into some offensive pressure. His bullwark can be used nearly on reaction to most things and counters everything that isn't a guard break. It can flip two people at a time and external attacks. Depending on the speeds of his attacks and how much he can delay his bash we're looking at high A tier to bottom S tier for duels and S tier in 4's due to being a direct counter to optimal 4's tactics plus his feats. I am willing to bet most premade teams are going to be running BP and JJ as mandatory picks.

Is Priorís bash confirmed to have variable inputs? Because I believe you are the first in the threads to bring this up and I havenít raised the question myself until now.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 12:30 AM
Is Prior’s bash confirmed to have variable inputs? Because I believe you are the first in the threads to bring this up and I haven’t raised the question myself until now.

I won't lie. I can't 100% confirm this because the info i'm getting is second hand. But supposedly there was a closed test environment prior to yesterday where people got to play with black prior and the reworks. I will not name who gave the information I read because they were under NDA. (just to be clear what i'm saying I heard from another person who heard from several people who are currently under NDA.) That out of the way supposedly black prior's bash from neutral is supposed to be 500ms with the same variable input window as conq's shield bash. No idea if the soft feint from heavies have the same window.

Siegfried-Z
01-26-2019, 12:46 AM
Not particularly fond of the look, but I'll figure something out. He's really edgy and I'm not really about that. Gameplaywise he looks fun to play, not in an OP kind of way. I like the fluidity of his attacks and the new mechanic seems interesting. I wonder if you can flip a shoulderbashing Warden, a shieldbashing Conq and a toe stabbing Gladiator. If so then I need him NOW, lol. I like that he has a crushing counter/superior light. I'm getting a bit bored of the game so I think I should try something new to spice up my gameplay. i haven't touched any heavy heroes at all so I think it would be a good idea to start with the Black Prior.

According to what the team show and explain during the den, BP can flip any bash or melee attacks. Litteraly anything else than GB, so i would say yes you can flip warden SB, Toe stab etc ;) Even Nuxia traps


His undodgeable second heavy can be soft feinted into SB? I guess I missed that part. Thatís awesome, I was worried he would be too easy to read or wait out as far as his offense goes. And tbh I still do.

Yes he can do it. It is one of the first thing i noticed when i see his heavy finisher is undodgeable. It's gonna be a nice mix up on that.


The one thing I can say for certain is that his feats will have to be changed/nerfed. Just imagine having two BPs on a team using their feats. Thats a gankfest where they are quite literally invincible.

I'm not sure.. tbh only his second feat look damn strong to me. The others are support feats. This is strong in a defensive way but is it stronger than Arrows, spears, fire or catapult which can kills 3 players once ? I Don't think so.


Hmm, some pretty interesting thoughts on Back Prior. I'm digging it! :)

Thanks ! It is a needed thread i Believe.


He's got a better conq mix up game with his bash that leads into either another bash or a 40 damage undodgable heavy which iirc can also be soft feinted into bash.
His zone is a better glads because you can chain into a 20 damage light or a 40 damage undodgable heavy that can be soft feinted into his 500ms bash. These are delayable inputs too.
The mix up he has after landing a light is directly comparable to shaolin's light into qi mix up but better in a lot of ways.

Defensively speaking he's got 500ms superior block lights that chain into some offensive pressure. His bullwark can be used nearly on reaction to most things and counters everything that isn't a guard break. It can flip two people at a time and external attacks. Depending on the speeds of his attacks and how much he can delay his bash we're looking at high A tier to bottom S tier for duels and S tier in 4's due to being a direct counter to optimal 4's tactics plus his feats. I am willing to bet most premade teams are going to be running BP and JJ as mandatory picks.

EDIT: forgot to mention that BP can also soft cancel the end recovery of heavies and lights with bullwark.

I wouldn't say his SB game is stronger than Conq one but on par in my opinion. Because don't forget that Conq with his feat can score 23 or 25 dmg 'm not sure in a single SB + light and some of his SB can wallsplat. But yes definitly BP SB games is solid.

About his zone, pretty similar to glad but stronger i agree.

And you noticed too what i've explain in my OP, he has a similar mix up than Shaolin in QI on heavy finisher so after a single light with SB/ Undodgeable heavy. I'm just curious why in your opinion his would be better than Shaolin one ?

Agree for the top of A tier duel and yep considering his feats S tier in 4v4.

Sneakly20
01-26-2019, 12:47 AM
I won't lie. I can't 100% confirm this because the info i'm getting is second hand. But supposedly there was a closed test environment prior to yesterday where people got to play with black prior and the reworks. I will not name who gave the information I read because they were under NDA. (just to be clear what i'm saying I heard from another person who heard from several people who are currently under NDA.) That out of the way supposedly black prior's bash from neutral is supposed to be 500ms with the same variable input window as conq's shield bash. No idea if the soft feint from heavies have the same window.

I know about the closed test ( Iím sure youíve seen the prior leaks before hand and looked at the sources - the tester) and I see. Well despite it being not immediate info Iíll take your word for it. Iím just wondering with priors kit how it will affect things. The variable or not bash I mean. Guess weíll find out Thursday or if some of this footage pops up somewhere before the release.

Velentix
01-26-2019, 01:05 AM
I'm not sure.. tbh only his second feat look damn strong to me. The others are support feats. This is strong in a defensive way but is it stronger than Arrows, spears, fire or catapult which can kills 3 players once ? I Don't think so.

Consider a midgame dominion match, you are getting ganked by two BPs. Even if they each only have the first 3 feats unlocked they can sacrifice health for a shield for their teammate if he gets hurt, and could both be healing with bulwark at the same time. Leaving you only two choices: run away or gb one of them. The second you gb one of them, that's a free heavy for the other BP, if you turn around to deal with your attacker, the other one can start healing. If you get revenge, you'll get your shield taken away, but there is still the possibility of ledging or spiking one of them. Add the shield flip into the equation as well as the 4th feat? What does revenge even matter to them? Your only real choice is to run away.
Now consider going up against a team of 4 BPs. Good luck.

rottmeister
01-26-2019, 01:07 AM
According to what the team show and explain during the den, BP can flip any bash or melee attacks. Litteraly anything else than GB, so i would say yes you can flip warden SB, Toe stab etc ;) Even Nuxia traps

I wonder if you could accidentally flip teammates. You can already deflect teammates and I've seen a Shugoki hug a teammate before.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 01:26 AM
I wouldn't say his SB game is stronger than Conq one but on par in my opinion. Because don't forget that Conq with his feat can score 23 or 25 dmg 'm not sure in a single SB + light and some of his SB can wallsplat. But yes definitly BP SB games is solid.

About his zone, pretty similar to glad but stronger i agree.

And you noticed too what i've explain in my OP, he has a similar mix up than Shaolin in QI on heavy finisher so after a single light with SB/ Undodgeable heavy. I'm just curious why in your opinion his would be better than Shaolin one ?

Agree for the top of A tier duel and yep considering his feats S tier in 4v4.

Without feats BP's bash confirms 20 damage where conq's is lower. And I say his bash game is better due to what it can lead into. Versus conq where all he leads into are his infinite combo. Which isn't nearly as much pressure as BP can exert after landing that light. Conq's bash game is still better defensively due to having superior block on dodges and side dodge into bash. But offensively speaking BP's bash game is better.

For reference i'm speaking of shaolin light into kick or light into side heavy with qi. With side heavy it is undodgable but only on the sides. where as with black prior his undogable is all 3 directions for 40 damage. Which is higher than shaolin's side heavies if they land. he can also soft feint his heavy into a bash to re loop into that pressure game. The bash itself has a vairable input window from soft feint. So it's harder for them to tell when he'll throw a bash versus shaolin's kick.

Also if i'm remembering right Black prior can also enter bullwark instead of going for a bash after landing a light. This would be to counter someone trying to predict/reaction dodge attack or just attack. As he'd bullwark counter the committed to attack. Basically to put it simply he has a better mix up because of more options, better damage potential, and can loop said pressure as long as he has stamina paired with the ability to be defensive via soft feint recovery into bullwark.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 01:30 AM
I know about the closed test ( I’m sure you’ve seen the prior leaks before hand and looked at the sources - the tester) and I see. Well despite it being not immediate info I’ll take your word for it. I’m just wondering with priors kit how it will affect things. The variable or not bash I mean. Guess we’ll find out Thursday or if some of this footage pops up somewhere before the release.

Well hypothetically speaking if he has the same variance of delay on both the forward bash and his soft feint bash (both being 500ms) it means he has better pressure than conq offensively and a stronger pressure game after confirming a light attack compared to shaolin's current qi stance mix up. Plus he has the potential to cover up defensively by soft feinting his attack recovery with going into bullwark.

Realistically speaking his an offensive conq with the mix up game of shaolin and valk with an arguably better version of gladiator's zone and feats that are as good as JJ's. That sounds horrifying. But is some what digestable when you recognize that he doesn't have combo strings and your bog standard feint into gb and gb based setups in 4's are his main weaknesses.

Sneakly20
01-26-2019, 05:07 AM
Well hypothetically speaking if he has the same variance of delay on both the forward bash and his soft feint bash (both being 500ms) it means he has better pressure than conq offensively and a stronger pressure game after confirming a light attack compared to shaolin's current qi stance mix up. Plus he has the potential to cover up defensively by soft feinting his attack recovery with going into bullwark.

Realistically speaking his an offensive conq with the mix up game of shaolin and valk with an arguably better version of gladiator's zone and feats that are as good as JJ's. That sounds horrifying. But is some what digestable when you recognize that he doesn't have combo strings and your bog standard feint into gb and gb based setups in 4's are his main weaknesses.

Letís say this is true, how would fighting him work?

OhHowSheGoingEh
01-26-2019, 11:33 AM
His feats are op. I don't know how you can justify giving him these kind of feats. Do you guys even play 4v4 game modes?

Feedmeyourcows2
01-26-2019, 11:49 AM
I'm just worried he'll become conqueror 2.0

rottmeister
01-26-2019, 11:54 AM
I'm just worried he'll become conqueror 2.0

His shield bash didn't really look all that fast, so I think it wouldn't be a viable strategy for him to spam it.

Siegfried-Z
01-26-2019, 12:52 PM
Consider a midgame dominion match, you are getting ganked by two BPs. Even if they each only have the first 3 feats unlocked they can sacrifice health for a shield for their teammate if he gets hurt, and could both be healing with bulwark at the same time. Leaving you only two choices: run away or gb one of them. The second you gb one of them, that's a free heavy for the other BP, if you turn around to deal with your attacker, the other one can start healing. If you get revenge, you'll get your shield taken away, but there is still the possibility of ledging or spiking one of them. Add the shield flip into the equation as well as the 4th feat? What does revenge even matter to them? Your only real choice is to run away.
Now consider going up against a team of 4 BPs. Good luck.

What you say is completly understandable. BP's feat gonna be strong to support your allies. No doubts i agree about that.
But my question is, is it stronger than some others feats which can do a lot of dmg or even kills few opponents in a single use ?
Is it a bigger advantage to have these 2 BP's with Shields, health and Broken Shields than a team of 3 vinkings and a LB ? Means you gonna get hurt a lot by Fire bombs, Spears storm and bombs an probably every player of your team gonna die from that at least 2 times in the Match.
Do you see what i mean ? I definitly agree these are strong feats, but he can't kill with it, this is only support while many char can score like 25% of their kills with feats.


I wonder if you could accidentally flip teammates. You can already deflect teammates and I've seen a Shugoki hug a teammate before.

That would be fun and annoying at the same time, just as valk sweep. I Don't know tbh.
But what i already noticed during the demo is you can flip an opponent you're targeting if an ally hit you while you're in full block and you input the punish ^^ Same problem than with few other mooves in the game.


Without feats BP's bash confirms 20 damage where conq's is lower. And I say his bash game is better due to what it can lead into. Versus conq where all he leads into are his infinite combo. Which isn't nearly as much pressure as BP can exert after landing that light. Conq's bash game is still better defensively due to having superior block on dodges and side dodge into bash. But offensively speaking BP's bash game is better.

For reference i'm speaking of shaolin light into kick or light into side heavy with qi. With side heavy it is undodgable but only on the sides. where as with black prior his undogable is all 3 directions for 40 damage. Which is higher than shaolin's side heavies if they land. he can also soft feint his heavy into a bash to re loop into that pressure game. The bash itself has a vairable input window from soft feint. So it's harder for them to tell when he'll throw a bash versus shaolin's kick.

Also if i'm remembering right Black prior can also enter bullwark instead of going for a bash after landing a light. This would be to counter someone trying to predict/reaction dodge attack or just attack. As he'd bullwark counter the committed to attack. Basically to put it simply he has a better mix up because of more options, better damage potential, and can loop said pressure as long as he has stamina paired with the ability to be defensive via soft feint recovery into bullwark.

Spliting SB's comparison between offense and defense is a good idea. And this look accurate. One being better in defense and the other in offense, at the end that's why i'm saying overall they're on par on this point.

About heavy finisher mix up i'm also speaking about Kick or side undogeable Shaolin mix up.
I'm not sure having one more direction is a strengh on an undodgeable moove but of course he can score 10 more dmg on the heavy and while Shaolin can also cancel his undodgeable and try a light to came back in the mix up BP has a better version of that by softfeinting it and directly for a SB, no need to score a ligh as Shaolin.



Realistically speaking his an offensive conq with the mix up game of shaolin and valk with an arguably better version of gladiator's zone and feats that are as good as JJ's. That sounds horrifying. But is some what digestable when you recognize that he doesn't have combo strings and your bog standard feint into gb and gb based setups in 4's are his main weaknesses.

That's a pretty good definition.
Of course said like that it looks very unfair. But i think BP gonna be easier to handle than Conq in 1v1 and JJ in 4v4 once people gonna use to his mix up, patterns etc


Let’s say this is true, how would fighting him work?

My first thoughts are :

1/ Always be aware for a SB, always. As they are more reactable than Conq one's, you have a lot of chances to dodge it. And if you're playing a char with a dodge attack, it means you can easly get 2 or 3 20dmg dodge attack punish at least in a round against a BP.

2/ His Full block. I believe the key gonna be to force him to react and attempt the flip. Or perform a GB.
It's mean the solution would not be to just land an attack, a bash etc but i think people gonna have to take some risks by feinting some hits in front of him in order to makes him attempt the punish and then punish him yourself or GB him.
But GB him from neutral aren't a good solution against a good player i think because he can propely time a Heavy and punish the GB attempt just as good Conq do.
This part of the fight gonna be a read each times for both BP and his opponent. But with more chances on the BP side.


His feats are op. I don't know how you can justify giving him these kind of feats. Do you guys even play 4v4 game modes?

I'm playing only 4v4 100%. Like i said before they are strong. But is it worst than many feats which can instant kill you and 2 others players in one use ? In my opinion no. These are just support feats and not offensive one.


I'm just worried he'll become conqueror 2.0

As Rottmeister said, i don't think so because his SB game gonna have a different use probably. I don't see BP just doing SB+light stop and repeating till you're oos etc.
BP gonna be more offensive.
And compared to Conq he also can't protect himself from almost any mix up on the game with his instant full block zone.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 03:03 PM
Let’s say this is true, how would fighting him work?

Baiting him into trying to bullwark counter so he can whiff and you GB him. Or baiting a response from him in general and then GBing him. as far as duels go anyway.

Knight_Raime
01-26-2019, 03:11 PM
@Siegfried-Z

"Spliting SB's comparison between offense and defense is a good idea. And this look accurate. One being better in defense and the other in offense, at the end that's why i'm saying overall they're on par on this point.

About heavy finisher mix up i'm also speaking about Kick or side undogeable Shaolin mix up.
I'm not sure having one more direction is a strengh on an undodgeable moove but of course he can score 10 more dmg on the heavy and while Shaolin can also cancel his undodgeable and try a light to came back in the mix up BP has a better version of that by softfeinting it and directly for a SB, no need to score a ligh as Shaolin."

Eh. I wouldn't say they're on par. One is better than the other. Overall conq is safer but that's about it. Black prior has safe offense which at least as far as the competitive side goes is what is more valuable at this point in time. The extra direction helps for group fights. And if someone decides to unlock roll.


"That's a pretty good definition.
Of course said like that it looks very unfair. But i think BP gonna be easier to handle than Conq in 1v1 and JJ in 4v4 once people gonna use to his mix up, patterns etc"

Conq in 1's is far more limited so people who do have tools against conq roll him kind of easily. Black prior doesn't seem to have any of the kind of downsides match up wise that conq would. And because BP has a reactionary punish to pretty much most strong punishes in the game with a potential punish for reads on his one weakness I don't really foresee anything that would make BP an easy target in 1's. It's entirely possible we will find something though. imo the only place I can see this is trying to force him into dodge related scenarios. Since he has no dodge defense/counter attack. But he has bullwark counter. So baiting him in a scenario like that where he tries to BW counter but you were baiting that then maybe.

As far as 4's go I don't know why you think JJ would still be harder to handle compared to BP.

Siegfried-Z
01-26-2019, 03:37 PM
@Siegfried-Z

"Spliting SB's comparison between offense and defense is a good idea. And this look accurate. One being better in defense and the other in offense, at the end that's why i'm saying overall they're on par on this point.

About heavy finisher mix up i'm also speaking about Kick or side undogeable Shaolin mix up.
I'm not sure having one more direction is a strengh on an undodgeable moove but of course he can score 10 more dmg on the heavy and while Shaolin can also cancel his undodgeable and try a light to came back in the mix up BP has a better version of that by softfeinting it and directly for a SB, no need to score a ligh as Shaolin."

Eh. I wouldn't say they're on par. One is better than the other. Overall conq is safer but that's about it. Black prior has safe offense which at least as far as the competitive side goes is what is more valuable at this point in time. The extra direction helps for group fights. And if someone decides to unlock roll.


"That's a pretty good definition.
Of course said like that it looks very unfair. But i think BP gonna be easier to handle than Conq in 1v1 and JJ in 4v4 once people gonna use to his mix up, patterns etc"

Conq in 1's is far more limited so people who do have tools against conq roll him kind of easily. Black prior doesn't seem to have any of the kind of downsides match up wise that conq would. And because BP has a reactionary punish to pretty much most strong punishes in the game with a potential punish for reads on his one weakness I don't really foresee anything that would make BP an easy target in 1's. It's entirely possible we will find something though. imo the only place I can see this is trying to force him into dodge related scenarios. Since he has no dodge defense/counter attack. But he has bullwark counter. So baiting him in a scenario like that where he tries to BW counter but you were baiting that then maybe.

As far as 4's go I don't know why you think JJ would still be harder to handle compared to BP.

Well saying conq has a real downside in 1v1 is a bit too much.
Limited or not, his options are very effective agaisnt any others char. I dont see a real bad match up for conq. What are these match up you're thinking about ?
Because as you said, his kit is pretty safe. That's his strengh, slowly kill his opponent with minimal risks.
BP offense gonna be stronger than Conq, but BP kit also offer more window for his opponent to catch him.

About 4v4. Well i don't see BP being a very good char at collecting kills. I mean of course it can happen but BP is not going To be a pretty fast killers as Shaman, Zerk, Warden Or JJ.
Because half of his kit only works if his opponent makes a moove (full block) and the other part feed a lot of revenge with SB.
And as far as we know his feats are supports one and not offensive one.

So i think JJ gonna remain the 4v4 king because of his range, insane AOE, 45dmg UB running everywhere all the time, wallsplats ability in 4v4, bigger HP pools, more damaging lights, HA and strong feats too.
As i think Conq gonna remain the 1v1 king by being simply safer.

But we talk about the 2 best of their mode.
I think BP gonna be among the top 3 in each mode, his kit is pretty solid for both.

rottmeister
01-26-2019, 04:28 PM
I'd say characters with a softfeint gb like Shaman and Centurion are good counters for BP. They can bait out a 'whatever it's called stance' with a heavy (or unblockable heavy) and softfeint it. Shaman can also feint a bash right when the UB sign appears and bait out the stance and gb. Also she can pressure him into the stance by feinting her bite.

Depending on how fast he can get into the special stance thing he could be a Conq killer.

The fact that he doesn't have dodge attacks also makes him more vulnerable to gb's.

In 4vs4 I think he'll be a great character, but nowhere near JJ's level. He has amazing feats to rely on. The counter that he has makes 1vs2 more bearable. I think he'll be a solid character both in 1vs1 and 4vs 4.

OhHowSheGoingEh
01-26-2019, 07:46 PM
What you say is completly understandable. BP's feat gonna be strong to support your allies. No doubts i agree about that.
But my question is, is it stronger than some others feats which can do a lot of dmg or even kills few opponents in a single use ?
Is it a bigger advantage to have these 2 BP's with Shields, health and Broken Shields than a team of 3 vinkings and a LB ? Means you gonna get hurt a lot by Fire bombs, Spears storm and bombs an probably every player of your team gonna die from that at least 2 times in the Match.
Do you see what i mean ? I definitly agree these are strong feats, but he can't kill with it, this is only support while many char can score like 25% of their kills with feats.



That would be fun and annoying at the same time, just as valk sweep. I Don't know tbh.
But what i already noticed during the demo is you can flip an opponent you're targeting if an ally hit you while you're in full block and you input the punish ^^ Same problem than with few other mooves in the game.



Spliting SB's comparison between offense and defense is a good idea. And this look accurate. One being better in defense and the other in offense, at the end that's why i'm saying overall they're on par on this point.

About heavy finisher mix up i'm also speaking about Kick or side undogeable Shaolin mix up.
I'm not sure having one more direction is a strengh on an undodgeable moove but of course he can score 10 more dmg on the heavy and while Shaolin can also cancel his undodgeable and try a light to came back in the mix up BP has a better version of that by softfeinting it and directly for a SB, no need to score a ligh as Shaolin.



That's a pretty good definition.
Of course said like that it looks very unfair. But i think BP gonna be easier to handle than Conq in 1v1 and JJ in 4v4 once people gonna use to his mix up, patterns etc



My first thoughts are :

1/ Always be aware for a SB, always. As they are more reactable than Conq one's, you have a lot of chances to dodge it. And if you're playing a char with a dodge attack, it means you can easly get 2 or 3 20dmg dodge attack punish at least in a round against a BP.

2/ His Full block. I believe the key gonna be to force him to react and attempt the flip. Or perform a GB.
It's mean the solution would not be to just land an attack, a bash etc but i think people gonna have to take some risks by feinting some hits in front of him in order to makes him attempt the punish and then punish him yourself or GB him.
But GB him from neutral aren't a good solution against a good player i think because he can propely time a Heavy and punish the GB attempt just as good Conq do.
This part of the fight gonna be a read each times for both BP and his opponent. But with more chances on the BP side.



I'm playing only 4v4 100%. Like i said before they are strong. But is it worst than many feats which can instant kill you and 2 others players in one use ? In my opinion no. These are just support feats and not offensive one.



As Rottmeister said, i don't think so because his SB game gonna have a different use probably. I don't see BP just doing SB+light stop and repeating till you're oos etc.
BP gonna be more offensive.
And compared to Conq he also can't protect himself from almost any mix up on the game with his instant full block zone.

His first feat has 0 drawbacks when hes got his second feat unlocked, his third feat makes popping revenge useless now since when you pop revenge your usually under half health already and his fourth feat I don't quite understand how your shields keep regenerating.

Siegfried-Z
01-27-2019, 12:00 AM
I'd say characters with a softfeint gb like Shaman and Centurion are good counters for BP. They can bait out a 'whatever it's called stance' with a heavy (or unblockable heavy) and softfeint it. Shaman can also feint a bash right when the UB sign appears and bait out the stance and gb. Also she can pressure him into the stance by feinting her bite.

Shaman is probably going to be a hard matchup for BP yes considering her amount of softfeints GB, even on her dash attack whatever if she land the heavy, the headbutt or the bite.

Plus, if BP SB is really easier to dodge than conq.. Shaman gonna have a lot of opportunities because of how fast are her Side dash attack.

I'm just wondering if at the end, this GB vulnerability on the BP full block is not going To became a strengh.
Because you know everyone gonna try to GB bait him.. so instead of landing the flip, he can land his UB for 30dmg which then beat the GB. . And if he is wrong he can feint it on rťaction . .
Let's see how it feels next Thursday !


His first feat has 0 drawbacks when hes got his second feat unlocked, his third feat makes popping revenge useless now since when you pop revenge your usually under half health already and his fourth feat I don't quite understand how your shields keep regenerating.

I know.
But these feats are just new. . We are more use To offensive feats.
Their are just different but i don't think stronger than lots of others feats.

Look i'm also playing Musha for example. Look at his feat :
1/ i can health and stam regen myself by simply killing soldiers on B
2/ i cant be max punish because of Steady Rock
3 - 4 / Sharpen blades and Debuff zone. Both of them allows me To kill anyone 50% faster and to kill anyone in two heavies if combined

And this is just one example. . Overall all feats are strong .

Tbh i prefer to lost my revenge shield or to see my opponent having a shield than being one shot by any bombs, catapult, fire, arrows and so on.
Because at least i can fight so in terms of probabilities i have more chance to win .

Sneakly20
01-27-2019, 02:33 AM
Shaman is probably going to be a hard matchup for BP yes considering her amount of softfeints GB, even on her dash attack whatever if she land the heavy, the headbutt or the bite.

Plus, if BP SB is really easier to dodge than conq.. Shaman gonna have a lot of opportunities because of how fast are her Side dash attack.

I'm just wondering if at the end, this GB vulnerability on the BP full block is not going To became a strengh.
Because you know everyone gonna try to GB bait him.. so instead of landing the flip, he can land his UB for 30dmg which then beat the GB. . And if he is wrong he can feint it on rťaction . .
Let's see how it feels next Thursday !



I know.
But these feats are just new. . We are more use To offensive feats.
Their are just different but i don't think stronger than lots of others feats.

Look i'm also playing Musha for example. Look at his feat :
1/ i can health and stam regen myself by simply killing soldiers on B
2/ i cant be max punish because of Steady Rock
3 - 4 / Sharpen blades and Debuff zone. Both of them allows me To kill anyone 50% faster and to kill anyone in two heavies if combined

And this is just one example. . Overall all feats are strong .

Tbh i prefer to lost my revenge shield or to see my opponent having a shield than being one shot by any bombs, catapult, fire, arrows and so on.
Because at least i can fight so in terms of probabilities i have more chance to win .

I donít think that prior is gonna suffer much at the hands of shaman as you may suggest. Even if his bash is 600. I believe heíll be fine. And I do agree that itíll be custom to try to GB. But did you see that he has a fullblock shortcut off of just blocking an attack? So Iím sure thatíll be used more than going fullblock from neutral. The only thing Iím not real thrilled on is that he canít soft feint his heavy into fullblock.

CandleInTheDark
01-27-2019, 03:30 AM
In terms of the original feats, I think that black prior's are similar to what they have done with jj and will synergise very well with him as between them they can keep your stamina and heath boosted.

Mind you I do think as a knight he will have catapult and something explosive, also, as a heavy, body count, we'll have to see.

Vakris_One
01-27-2019, 04:20 AM
His feats synergise insanely well with each other. He's pretty much a one-stop support shop. Having his first and second feats unlocked means he can keep healing his teammates while never needing to visit a healing point himself. He just needs a bit of quiet me-time somewhere off in the bushes :) and he's back to full health and ready to heal others.

Both of these feats together are essentially JJ's 3rd healing feat, which sounds like a drawback - using 2 feats to do what 1 feat does. But the cooldown time for a Tier 1 feat is super fast and his Tier 2 is a passive, meaning he can always heal at any time without having to wait for a cooldown. He only needs to activate Bullwark stance somewhere relatively safe. He doesn't have the immediate gain of a big team and self heal at the same time like JJ but always having access to healing whenever you want it is incredibly powerful.

Big Papi's 3rd feat fundamentally changes how an opponent has to play their revenge card if facing a gank with a BP in it. If you're on low health by the time you get revenge you're pretty much done. You might as well not even bother popping revenge as it would make no real difference to how long you'll survive. You'll be lucky to get off a single knock down punish before you get killed. Getting rid of a shield by 100% is far too strong for a Tier 3 feat in my opinion. I would have capped it at 80%.

His 4th feat that constantly gives all surrounding teammates a shield and reapplies it by what looked like every 2 seconds is interesting. It looks to be a much better version of Phalanx but it really depends on how long the feat's duration is and how frequently it reapplies the shields. Worst case scenario is that you simply won't be able to take down an opponent that has that feat backing them up as all they will need to do is stall you while their shield reapplies.

As for his moveset, at first glance the main thing I'm slightly concerned about is the damage of his un-dodgeable heavy finisher. 40 damage seems like a bit too much imo for an attack that is un-dodgeable and can be soft feinted into either Bullwark stance or a bash. I feel there needs to be some price to pay for BP having the ability to cover himself with every possible counter option on prediction. I could be wrong, it could be as simple as just never going for a parry on his heavy finishers so you can safely react to his other options. Just something about an undogeable heavy being 40 damage feels off to me when it can also be soft feinted into not one but two different options.

Siegfried-Z
01-27-2019, 01:27 PM
I don’t think that prior is gonna suffer much at the hands of shaman as you may suggest. Even if his bash is 600. I believe he’ll be fine. And I do agree that it’ll be custom to try to GB. But did you see that he has a fullblock shortcut off of just blocking an attack? So I’m sure that’ll be used more than going fullblock from neutral. The only thing I’m not real thrilled on is that he can’t soft feint his heavy into fullblock.

Yes Don't get me wrong i didn't mean to say Shaman would be a "Bad" match up for him because tbh i think he is not going to have some really bad ones. But her kit gonna offer many opportunities to bait the BP.

I saw he can go in Full block after a block in another thread yes, during the fight i gess this is going to be used like that often. From neutral gonna be more at mid-distance to heal maybe a little and force a reaction.

BP not having a softfeint on his heavy to go in full block looks fair to me. He already has many options and he he would have that, he would have been a bit too much closer to Conq kit i think.


His feats synergise insanely well with each other. He's pretty much a one-stop support shop. Having his first and second feats unlocked means he can keep healing his teammates while never needing to visit a healing point himself. He just needs a bit of quiet me-time somewhere off in the bushes :) and he's back to full health and ready to heal others.

Both of these feats together are essentially JJ's 3rd healing feat, which sounds like a drawback - using 2 feats to do what 1 feat does. But the cooldown time for a Tier 1 feat is super fast and his Tier 2 is a passive, meaning he can always heal at any time without having to wait for a cooldown. He only needs to activate Bullwark stance somewhere relatively safe. He doesn't have the immediate gain of a big team and self heal at the same time like JJ but always having access to healing whenever you want it is incredibly powerful.

Big Papi's 3rd feat fundamentally changes how an opponent has to play their revenge card if facing a gank with a BP in it. If you're on low health by the time you get revenge you're pretty much done. You might as well not even bother popping revenge as it would make no real difference to how long you'll survive. You'll be lucky to get off a single knock down punish before you get killed. Getting rid of a shield by 100% is far too strong for a Tier 3 feat in my opinion. I would have capped it at 80%.

His 4th feat that constantly gives all surrounding teammates a shield and reapplies it by what looked like every 2 seconds is interesting. It looks to be a much better version of Phalanx but it really depends on how long the feat's duration is and how frequently it reapplies the shields. Worst case scenario is that you simply won't be able to take down an opponent that has that feat backing them up as all they will need to do is stall you while their shield reapplies.

As for his moveset, at first glance the main thing I'm slightly concerned about is the damage of his un-dodgeable heavy finisher. 40 damage seems like a bit too much imo for an attack that is un-dodgeable and can be soft feinted into either Bullwark stance or a bash. I feel there needs to be some price to pay for BP having the ability to cover himself with every possible counter option on prediction. I could be wrong, it could be as simple as just never going for a parry on his heavy finishers so you can safely react to his other options. Just something about an undogeable heavy being 40 damage feels off to me when it can also be soft feinted into not one but two different options.

BP and JJ feats gonna be a very good match together of course.
But you're not going to face Always a team with JJ and BP so i Don't mind.

JJ 3rd feat is still stronger than 1st and 2nd BP feats in temrs of ally health because BP can only health someone if he used his 1st one before on him , he also has to get out of the fight and stay in Full block to health the guy and it is a progressive health.
JJ can just use his 3rd one and heal all of his team and him at the same time in 1Sec and then can keep fighting. It is still far above BP one.

But, BP can just heal himself whenever he wants and that's pretty strong.

About his 3rd feat, i Don't think the ability to broke a shield is too strong.. because again, he can only do it against one opponent at the same time.. While many 3rd feats can affect or dmg many opponents.

I don't see what is really wrong with his 40dmg undodgeable heavy. Considering his SB gonna be easier to dodge than Conq one's or Shaolin kick, people gonna fall in this trap less often anyway.
And 40dmg for a Tank heavy finisher just look fine considering how many char can score this in some easier way in the game.

BP dmg are really well balanced, compare to JJ one's which are still pretty above all others char.
Tbh i see Bp as a very well design char. Strong but not op, cancer or toxic.

The guy has some very good things going for him but at least his kit respect his "tank" aspect and then he doesn't have side dash attack or 400ms mooves..

Knight_Raime
01-27-2019, 01:49 PM
Well saying conq has a real downside in 1v1 is a bit too much.
Limited or not, his options are very effective agaisnt any others char. I dont see a real bad match up for conq. What are these match up you're thinking about ?
Because as you said, his kit is pretty safe. That's his strengh, slowly kill his opponent with minimal risks.
BP offense gonna be stronger than Conq, but BP kit also offer more window for his opponent to catch him.

About 4v4. Well i don't see BP being a very good char at collecting kills. I mean of course it can happen but BP is not going To be a pretty fast killers as Shaman, Zerk, Warden Or JJ.
Because half of his kit only works if his opponent makes a moove (full block) and the other part feed a lot of revenge with SB.
And as far as we know his feats are supports one and not offensive one.

So i think JJ gonna remain the 4v4 king because of his range, insane AOE, 45dmg UB running everywhere all the time, wallsplats ability in 4v4, bigger HP pools, more damaging lights, HA and strong feats too.
As i think Conq gonna remain the 1v1 king by being simply safer.

But we talk about the 2 best of their mode.
I think BP gonna be among the top 3 in each mode, his kit is pretty solid for both.

Sorry for the late reply.

Let me clarify, when I said conq was limited in duels I was referring to his limited offense in general. Which is far more apparent in a duel than in a team fight. Conq's only bad match up is highlander. But he has a few that are not in his favor. What I meant about BP not having conq's weaknesses I was specifically referring to the fact that he has a versatile offense that actually does good damage. Eh. That depends on how you're looking at them I guess. Everytime conq tries to bash he's opening himself. Just as everytime BP tries to bullwark counter he opens himself.

I mean. The fact that BP can setup a kill for his team pretty much at any point and flip two people at a time against any team comp I think that alone sky rockets his value above most other kits. Plus that combined with his feats? I can see that JJ might be more efficient at killing because of his AoE presence. But I don't think that puts him head and shoulders above BP. Conq isn't the king of 1v1 btw. it's zerk. And has been for awhile.

Siegfried-Z
01-27-2019, 05:02 PM
Sorry for the late reply.

Let me clarify, when I said conq was limited in duels I was referring to his limited offense in general. Which is far more apparent in a duel than in a team fight. Conq's only bad match up is highlander. But he has a few that are not in his favor. What I meant about BP not having conq's weaknesses I was specifically referring to the fact that he has a versatile offense that actually does good damage. Eh. That depends on how you're looking at them I guess. Everytime conq tries to bash he's opening himself. Just as everytime BP tries to bullwark counter he opens himself.

I mean. The fact that BP can setup a kill for his team pretty much at any point and flip two people at a time against any team comp I think that alone sky rockets his value above most other kits. Plus that combined with his feats? I can see that JJ might be more efficient at killing because of his AoE presence. But I don't think that puts him head and shoulders above BP. Conq isn't the king of 1v1 btw. it's zerk. And has been for awhile.

No prob man.

I've got your point. And tbh honest anyway that's pretty clear BP gonna be strong in any modes and against any char. How i see it is Conq having a defensive advantage and BP an offensive one to makes it short.
Discussing about it is interesting and we gonna have a more accurate understandings of his real strenghs and weaknesses once we gonna put our hands on him ;) Maybe some bad match-up gonna appear, maybe we gonna see some risky ways to use his Bullwark and maybe we gonna see his SB game has to be used with precaution. He brings something new in the game and that's gonna be interesting to dig into it.

About 4v4 of course JJ isn't going to be far above BP's, i just think JJ will remain slighly more efficient. Because as i said BP gonna probably be in the top 3 or close to in both mode.


Zerk/Conq.. we can say both are, one because of his offense and the other for his defense.
But tbh i would rather fight a zerk which give me a sweaty fight because at least things are spicy than a very good Conq which simply shut down almost any offense.

Roseguard_Cpt
01-27-2019, 05:41 PM
There was something about the BP that had me a little confused. His T1 Feat that sacrifices HP to give shield. Is this a single target, or an AOE like Tiandi's sacrifice; and if it is single target, how do we direct to the player who feel needs it, as we cannot lock onto teammates?

CandleInTheDark
01-27-2019, 05:46 PM
There was something about the BP that had me a little confused. His T1 Feat that sacrifices HP to give shield. Is this a single target, or an AOE like Tiandi's sacrifice; and if it is single target, how do we direct to the player who feel needs it, as we cannot lock onto teammates?

When someone was trying to target a teammate I saw a white targetting cross, so I am assuming, especially as it is tier one and the tier four is aoe, that it is single target.