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ROXunreal
06-15-2010, 08:37 AM
I've recently been flying planes armed only with .303's on purpose because of how horrible they are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Makes the game more interesting and any kill much more rewarding.

Seriously, how would one hope to kill an early war bomber with these guns? It feels like I'm shooting toothpicks at them, I have many times emptied ALL of my Hurri/Spit .303's at a He111 or a Betty from dead six, trying to aim for the engines, and all I've ever achieved are some pathetic fuel leaks and faint smoke trails. It's like you can only ever bring a bomber down with these if you go from the side above and get a sufficient cockpit hit.
With fighters it's not that bad though it still takes lots of ammo and I can't say I ever made anything non-japanese to catch fire, almost all my kills were from engine damage (yet almost never black smoke) or control damage. Anyone ever had the luck to sever a wing with these, if it's even possible? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'd just like to hear stories and opinions from people here about the.303 in game.

ROXunreal
06-15-2010, 08:37 AM
I've recently been flying planes armed only with .303's on purpose because of how horrible they are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Makes the game more interesting and any kill much more rewarding.

Seriously, how would one hope to kill an early war bomber with these guns? It feels like I'm shooting toothpicks at them, I have many times emptied ALL of my Hurri/Spit .303's at a He111 or a Betty from dead six, trying to aim for the engines, and all I've ever achieved are some pathetic fuel leaks and faint smoke trails. It's like you can only ever bring a bomber down with these if you go from the side above and get a sufficient cockpit hit.
With fighters it's not that bad though it still takes lots of ammo and I can't say I ever made anything non-japanese to catch fire, almost all my kills were from engine damage (yet almost never black smoke) or control damage. Anyone ever had the luck to sever a wing with these, if it's even possible? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'd just like to hear stories and opinions from people here about the.303 in game.

Manu-6S
06-15-2010, 09:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
I've recently been flying planes armed only with .303's on purpose because of how horrible they are http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Makes the game more interesting and any kill much more rewarding.

Seriously, how would one hope to kill an early war bomber with these guns? It feels like I'm shooting toothpicks at them, I have many times emptied ALL of my Hurri/Spit .303's at a He111 or a Betty from dead six, trying to aim for the engines, and all I've ever achieved are some pathetic fuel leaks and faint smoke trails. It's like you can only ever bring a bomber down with these if you go from the side above and get a sufficient cockpit hit.
With fighters it's not that bad though it still takes lots of ammo and I can't say I ever made anything non-japanese to catch fire, almost all my kills were from engine damage (yet almost never black smoke) or control damage. Anyone ever had the luck to sever a wing with these, if it's even possible? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'd just like to hear stories and opinions from people here about the.303 in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My opinion? Try the Bredas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

No, seriously I'm used to teach to my cadets how to fight with me in a Hurri MkI and them on a 109E4: .303 are good enough against German planes if you can shoot at the right distance (I never fire above 200m) and at the right angle (dead 6 is never a good angle...). Of course they always go down until they understand their advantages.

Then a DB is starting to smoke black he's off the fight in 2 minutes... not so if you are in a SpitV and you can smoke for 15 minutes (tested 2 weeks ago, with my teammate who was calling me names since I was flying that thing)

Never spray, keep you ammo for an aimed burst at engine/cockpit, and I repeat, not from dead 6 but from aside or under/over the enemy. Usually you need one chance to make them smoke (at least I'm used to this).

Ba5tard5word
06-15-2010, 09:57 AM
.30 cals stink!

TheGrunch
06-15-2010, 10:07 AM
High sides attacks are great against early war bombers.

TinyTim
06-15-2010, 10:10 AM
Well, they are effective (much more so than any heavy machinegun in the sim) at lighting up fuel tanks. Know where the fuel tanks on your target are, and aim for them. They are usually on the inner section of the wing, often on the outter as well - speaking of bombers of couse.

Quite some bombers have extremely flammable fuel tanks that will light up after only a few light MG hits: Ju 88, Ju-87, Mossie, A-20, B-25, Pe-2, DB-3 (IL-4)...

Some other however are very fire resistant - Ki-21 and He-111 among them - which is quite... er... "interesting", especially when you look at how quickly the B-25 or Mossie lights up.

One, however, takes the cake - SM.79. Do not even attempt at shooting this thing down with .303s unless you attack from front, hoping to kill the pilot or damage engines enough for it to ditch.

To regain some faith in .303s and see that it's not neccessarily the weapon, but the DM that's faulty, I'd encourage you to go and fly a Finnish Hurri MkI vs Russian DB-3 bombers. You'll light them up pretty easily, with only a "few hundred hits", which is somewhat comparable to historical accounts.

Another interesting fact is that almost all of the bullets stop and "dissapear" in the instant they hit the skin of the plane - it's nearly impossible to kill a crewmember by shooting a light machinegun through unarmoured skin of the aircraft, many times just a fabric!

For example - this gunner is still very much alive:

http://www.shrani.si/f/40/C8/1nnkCYAG/alive.jpg

As is this pilot:

http://www.shrani.si/f/3N/JI/1c4nsYs6/pk.jpg

Bottom line - it's the DMs that are FUBAR, not the .303s.

RedToo
06-15-2010, 10:41 AM
It's not all the game's DM's fault. .303s were fairly weak:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/RedToo/Dornier-303-Damage.jpg
This Do 17 crash landed in France with more than two hundred hits. That number of hits indicates that at least two British fighters fired most of their ammunition into it from short range. On the original print of the wing more than fifty bullet strikes are visible. Indicating the weakness of the .303-in machine guns fitted to British fighters when used against enemy bombers.

One of the tactics the RAF evolved during BoB was head on attacks - to counter weakish guns and because all the German crew were located together at the front of the plane.

RedToo.

TinyTim
06-15-2010, 11:08 AM
RedToo, if you go and test the .303s in 1946, you'll find that you need around 700 - 1000 bullets <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">on average</span> to bring down for example a He 111 or a Ki-21, as opposed to 200+, a number of hits which <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">a few extremely lucky</span> He 111s survived and got back home in reality during BOB.

Noone is arguing .303s were weak IRL. Their recreation in IL-2 however is another 3-5 times weaker (on some planes, depending on the DM).

JtD
06-15-2010, 11:39 AM
Please please please don't use "average" without adding "when making simple attacks from 6 o'clock". I know my average is far lower. You know we've been there, don't need to go there again.

TinyTim
06-15-2010, 11:49 AM
Why assume pilots IRL never attacked bombers from rear hemisphere is beyond me. That was, as far as I believe, the most common type of attack on the bomber, followed by a headon, counting only attacks during which a significant number of hits was achieved. Anyone disagreeing, please elaborate.

(note - I'm not saying straight and level 6 oclock approach, I'm saying rear hemisphere).

JtD
06-15-2010, 12:10 PM
I'm not disagreeing with your assessment that it is possible to repeatedly put a ridiculous number of hits into the bomber when attacking from behind. I'm not disagreeing with your opinion that that would be a very common type of attack.

I'm just disagreeing with the use of the term "average" without further explanation. I know it is easily possible to kill (most of) these bombers with 100 hits on "average", I'd just be picking a different range of samples for that evaluation (good or better pilot, good attack vector, short range fire). I'd expect your range of samples to consist of (good or worse pilot, poor attack vector, longer than short range fire). But if you just use "average" without further explanation, you'd have to include all samples into that number and for that I'd consider 700-1000 far too high.

I'd be happy if we could agree on something this time, and if it's only that we agree to disagree.

K_Freddie
06-15-2010, 01:02 PM
Focus is always good.. This scene was at least 2 seconds worth of chewing away at the ME109 back section, with that 12 gun hurri.
http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/Hits1.jpg

http://www.vanjast.com/IL2Pics/Hits2.jpg

Romanator21
06-15-2010, 05:59 PM
I think that the average Il-2 pilot is much too adept at scoring hits anyway. Scoring 1000 hits on a bomber in this game is easy. Scoring 200 in reality takes an extraordinary level of skill and coordination. Maybe this is a cause for the apparent toughness we see in some DM - it would be too easy otherwise.

To the original post: don't expect .303 rounds to saw through structural components. They are made for poking holes into vital aircraft systems such as tubing, fuel tanks, radiators, oil tanks, control cables, oxygen supply, engine and finally the pilot. The "faint smoke trails" and pathetic fuel leaks are more of a death-blow than most realize, preventing the bomber from making it to the target, making it back home, etc. Remember, as a bomber interceptor, your job is not to shoot down bombers, it's to make sure the bombers don't deliver their payloads.

The reality is often far from spectacular, and you shouldn't expect results that you see in guncam compilations which are cherry-picked for wow-factor. Also consider that the war's top aces made on average one kill for every ten sorties. Average pilots who lived long enough made far fewer.

M_Gunz
06-15-2010, 09:55 PM
Tim, the pilot/crew DM boxes are much smaller than the 3D models. Reason being that most players would quit if they
got PK'd or wounded as easily as real.

So yeah, DM is whoops but it's not as much always the plane as it seems.

I wonder how popular an option to increase pilot/crew DM boxes would be? On one hand, less complaints about guns?

WTE_Galway
06-16-2010, 06:33 PM
I don't recall reading too many historical reports where BoB pilots downed bombers from the dead six.

In fact the only one I am aware of is the famous incident over London where the pilot ran out of ammunition (surprise surprise) and ended up downing the bomber by chewing it's tail off with his prop.

By the end of the BoB the preferred approach was apparently to have one RAF flight feint a side attack to draw the fire of the single waist gunner to that side and then have another flight make a real attack from the opposite side.

By the way in QMB '38 Hurri against he111 is one of my favorite QMB missions http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In the past two weeks I have died numerous times but also achieved a couple of one pass kills from head on and managed to shoot off a wing in a side on deflection shot on a turning he111. Note that .303 ammo CAN occasionally take a wing off but only with side on shots if the target is in a steep bank.

DKoor
06-16-2010, 06:36 PM
Here is joy:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/efa6...Hurri-vs-4xHe111-405 (http://www.esnips.com/doc/efa646ab-a81e-4ade-9201-58b51d5487da/KunaHurri-vs-4xHe111-405)

WTE_Galway
06-16-2010, 06:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
I wonder how popular an option to increase pilot/crew DM boxes would be? On one hand, less complaints about guns? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well for the "we are guys we like to blow things up" gamer crew just make the AI hit boxes bigger whilst keeping the real life pilot/gunner hit box small.

DKoor
06-16-2010, 06:58 PM
For one those guys should be putting their .303s conv under 150m and then blast away in engine, pit or fuel tanks on the bomber.
That is known to work in excellent manner.

Trouble is, those He-111 gunners are real snipers and Hurri has glass jaw so they can set it on fire very easily... that's why the only real option to survive and be successful are 12 o clock (head on) and eagle attack (directly from above as in my track) attacks on Ai bomber formation. Solo bomber is not a biggie (regardless of skill), however when they are packed in ace skilled fours, well that is nightmare.

A bit OT... I have EXPLODED I-16s SEVERAL times with Breda-Safats... also conv lower, obligatory below 200m, some 170-180 if I remember right... I just flew in dead 6 and pumped into tail. I also remember repeating it with I.A.R.s (version without 20mm cannons). Same kind of action dead six from point blank range, I-16s took me together with them few times.

EDIT
It isn't suffice to say that lowering onv works MIRACLES with machine guns. Two 7,62s hitting the same spot is much more powerful than two 7,62s hitting two different spots.

ROXunreal
06-17-2010, 10:24 AM
Well what can I say guys, thanks for the advice! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ROXunreal/il-2/stukaz.jpg

TS_Sancho
06-17-2010, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
Well what can I say guys, thanks for the advice! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice!

Was there one specific trick that worked better for you than the other advice offered?

In light of the tone of your OP your screenshot offers powerful testament that something worked well for you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Xiolablu3
06-17-2010, 03:42 PM
During the Battle of Britain, it was very common for a pilot to shoot off all his ammo at a bomber and not shoot it down.

In fact I would say it was more likely that actually getting a kill

heres a BF110 bomber destroyer shooting off all his 20mmcannon and 7.92mm (.303 like) MG ammo at a B17. Apparantly the B17 made it home...or so I have read....but it looks to me like the crew have maybe bailed out and the lw pilot is using it for target practice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Y7Lo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIpdhi6Y7Lo&feature=related)

IL2 is MORE realistic BECAUSE its so hard to get a kill. I dont thin there is any return fire from the gunners, they are probably injured or dead. I he receieved any return fire he would not have got in so close, he would have broken off earlier.

ROXunreal
06-17-2010, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Was there one specific trick that worked better for you than the other advice offered?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nope the stukas just seem to catch fire almost always after a 1 second burst into the wing roots

Heinkels are also much easier to down when shot at from above though they still never flame out, I only saw one burn but that was from AAA. If I shoot one down I'm lucky though, need a cockpit hit or a long fuselage hit to sever controls. Can still get the engines smoking but never critically damaged.

as for 109's, I consider myself lucky if I can even get one in my sights let alone shoot it down, since I'm playing a hurricane campaign now just for the .303's http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I did do this however and was just stunned. That was a long burst as he was hanging on the prop

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ROXunreal/il-2/bfff.jpg

ROXunreal
06-17-2010, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
heres a BF110 bomber destroyer shooting off all his 20mmcannon and 7.92mm (.303 like) MG ammo at a B17. Apparantly the B17 made it home...or so I have read....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the B-17's were much bigger and tougher than the Heinkels...I read that they could take more than 20 20mm hits from the rear and still keep flying. Gunners protective glass would also sometimes withstand a direct 20mm hit. Plus it has 4 engines.

WTE_Galway
06-17-2010, 04:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TS_Sancho:
Was there one specific trick that worked better for you than the other advice offered?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heinkels are also much easier to down when shot at from above though they still never flame out, I only saw one burn but that was from AAA. If I shoot one down I'm lucky though, need a cockpit hit or a long fuselage hit to sever controls. Can still get the engines smoking but never critically damaged.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try head on or head on but slightly below. I regularly flame the he111 head on with the '38 hurri and have even shot an engine off entirely from head on.

ROXunreal
06-17-2010, 04:50 PM
Well I'm sure I'll get many scenarios to come in this campaign (Hurricane Season, great campaign, can't remember by who though...) so I may have a few more stories to tell. I'll give the front below a try if I get the opportunity

Xiolablu3
06-18-2010, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
heres a BF110 bomber destroyer shooting off all his 20mmcannon and 7.92mm (.303 like) MG ammo at a B17. Apparantly the B17 made it home...or so I have read....
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well the B-17's were much bigger and tougher than the Heinkels...I read that they could take more than 20 20mm hits from the rear and still keep flying. Gunners protective glass would also sometimes withstand a direct 20mm hit. Plus it has 4 engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And 20mm is far more powerful than .303's. I'd say that just about cancels that out.

20mm vs B17 or .303 at Heinkels? In fact I would say I'd say that in real life, the Heinekl would be more resistant to .303 than the B17 to 20mm cannon.

TinyTim
06-18-2010, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
During the Battle of Britain, it was very common for a pilot to shoot off all his ammo at a bomber and not shoot it down. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The obvious question here of course is how many of his bullets actually hit the target. Considering a Spitfire MkI/II carries roughly 2400 bullets, a pilot would need to achieve about 5% hitrate to get 120 bullets into a bomber. Some bombers made it home with more than 200.

Many early twin engined bombers in IL-2 take on average 150-200 hits before going down (Ju 88, DB-3/IL-4, Pe-2, B-25,...), but a few have "strange" DMs, He 111 being among them with 550 on average.

WTE_Galway
06-18-2010, 07:10 PM
I think we need to bear in mind that an "acceptable" kill rate for a real pilot and a gamer are different.

Now ignoring the fact that many gamers feel they are better shots than the real pilots of the day lets do a comparison.

A Battle of Britain RAF pilot that flew say 20 sorties over 2 weeks and shot down one he111 every 4th mission would be an "Ace" in a fortnight and a hero at the local pilots mess and may even make the newspapers.

A typical gamer achieving one kill every 4 missions would be online complaining that the "game DM is over-modeled and their is no way these results are historical".

Wildnoob
06-18-2010, 07:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
To the original post: don't expect .303 rounds to saw through structural components. They are made for poking holes into vital aircraft systems such as tubing, fuel tanks, radiators, oil tanks, control cables, oxygen supply, engine and finally the pilot. The "faint smoke trails" and pathetic fuel leaks are more of a death-blow than most realize, preventing the bomber from making it to the target, making it back home, etc. Remember, as a bomber interceptor, your job is not to shoot down bombers, it's to make sure the bombers don't deliver their payloads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

Most players are familiarized with the well armed planes in witch they fire until crictial damage is achived.

If you do this with ligth mg armed planes you gonna wast all your ammo in just one target and perhaps will not see any critical damage, because these rounds work in practice by destroying the aircraft systems cited by Romanator witch usually gonna result in the plane getting out of the formation and maybe crashing later. But what really matter is after getting out of the formation the bomber is not longer a treat and you can pick any vulnerable others trying to RTB later.

It's worth to mention that an apparent not critically damaged plane could not show the effects of the damage instantly. Today I conduct an experience with a bunch of IL2s. I just fire a short 7.7 burst of my 109 in their radiators and wait. In four minutes all them crashed.

Another thing concerning .303 rounds is that in RL pilots did cooperate in the attacks: a plane make a pass in a bomber, if he didn't go down another guy would fire again and this will be repeated until that bomber was out. This greatly improved the use of the ammunition.

When firing targets must be always the vital ones: cockpit, wings and engine. Also, make sure your convergence is always harmonized and only employ short burst. I just give some taps on the trigger.

Using those fundaments I have a lot of sucess using poor armed planes like the Hurricane and the Ki-43.

WTE_Galway
06-18-2010, 07:28 PM
I would add that the firing range during the BoB was typically less than 50 meters http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When I get access to a scanner again I can post up interviews with both RAF and Luftwaffe pilots confirming this.

Romanator21
06-18-2010, 09:06 PM
Maybe I should finally mention that adjusting from cannon-armed fighters, to pea-shooters does take time, and you shouldn't expect results instantly. There are a lot of fine nuances to using machine guns.

But using a Hurri Mk.I I can make a flight of Heinkels drop their bombs early and make them turn around. The factory district is saved, the war effort continues. Kills are just bonus.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I think we need to bear in mind that an "acceptable" kill rate for a real pilot and a gamer are different.

Now ignoring the fact that many gamers feel they are better shots than the real pilots of the day lets do a comparison.

A Battle of Britain RAF pilot that flew say 20 sorties over 2 weeks and shot down one he111 every 4th mission would be an "Ace" in a fortnight and a hero at the local pilots mess and may even make the newspapers.

A typical gamer achieving one kill every 4 missions would be online complaining that the "game DM is over-modeled and their is no way these results are historical".

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly.

I realized this some time ago, and personally, when flying offline, I restrict myself to a certain degree to make my flying more realistic. The goal is not to rack up a tally, but to survive (when flying a two hour long sortie, re-fly becomes much less enticing). I get fewer kills than before, but each one feels more rewarding, and the game is more fun overall.

JtD
06-18-2010, 11:16 PM
Also the definition of a kill in real life and in game are different. Take the Heinkels for example, the engines start leaking coolant after a handful of hits each. It's enough to spray the plane with bullets, and it will certainly go down after a couple of minutes.

In real life, that's an as good kill as any - the bomber will hardly get to the targets and definitely not get back to base -, in game folks keep firing looking for the immediate result.

DKoor
06-19-2010, 02:55 PM
Guys I don't know about you, but just consider this... you fly as crewman, a part of the German bomber assaulting the Great Britain...

Now all goes well then all of a sudden you see a fighter plane approaching fast onto your bomber and opens fire in close range.
As much as I try to picture it I can't comprehend what made those Germans (if they survived) enter that bomber again, aside the fear from the fire squad... it is a true nightmare scenario.

I faced a pistol aimed at me and must say it makes you really think about stuff... and doubt devil himself could make me volunteer for a crate that can ultimately become a target drone for some trigger happy guy behind 8 machine guns... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BTW some of you guys really underestimate firearms... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JtD:
Also the definition of a kill in real life and in game are different. Take the Heinkels for example, the engines start leaking coolant after a handful of hits each. It's enough to spray the plane with bullets, and it will certainly go down after a couple of minutes.

In real life, that's an as good kill as any - the bomber will hardly get to the targets and definitely not get back to base -, in game folks keep firing looking for the immediate result. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This can't be more true...

K_Freddie
06-19-2010, 03:10 PM
Sailor Malan was quoted to be happy to let a bomber, all shot up, fly home instead of downing it.
His reasons were simply to destroy the will and morale of the bomber crews.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Wildnoob
06-19-2010, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Sailor Malan was quoted to be happy to let a bomber, all shot up, fly home instead of downing it.
His reasons were simply to destroy the will and morale of the bomber crews.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In one of the game tutorial movies Oleg leaves a damage Heinkel RTB for the same reason:

"Maybe stories of this encounter will lower the morale at German base"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Wildnoob
06-19-2010, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K_Freddie:
Sailor Malan was quoted to be happy to let a bomber, all shot up, fly home instead of downing it.
His reasons were simply to destroy the will and morale of the bomber crews.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In one of the game tutorial movies Oleg let a damage Heinkel RTB for the same reason:

"Maybe stories of this encounter will lower the morale at German base"

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

M_Gunz
06-19-2010, 09:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Guys I don't know about you, but just consider this... you fly as crewman, a part of the German bomber assaulting the Great Britain...

Now all goes well then all of a sudden you see a fighter plane approaching fast onto your bomber and opens fire in close range.
As much as I try to picture it I can't comprehend what made those Germans (if they survived) enter that bomber again, aside the fear from the fire squad... it is a true nightmare scenario. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew a man who flew bombers in WWII and got a head wound in a B-29 that allowed him to go home. But he did not. He stayed
and kept going until the end of the war.

Why he did it was "I could have gone home but the others had to stay and I could not leave them as long as I could fight.".

I can tell you that this has kept many ground-pounders in the field as well. You stay with your brothers, where you are needed.
You can't bear to desert them.
It's -not- universal by any means, not even the majority in some units and wars, but it does apply in many cases regardless.

IME in units where it's mostly every man for himself and a lot of petty backstabbing going on, 'short' is a great feeling but
even then you'll always have buddies you'll miss who will show up in the odd weird dream years and years later. Funny but if
I knew some of them were in danger and I could help, I'd want to be there too despite the danger.

You go back for your buddies or mates or comrades or brothers, as long as you have any. Or maybe you go back for yourself.
I wouldn't trust anyone next to me who had to be forced to be there anyway.

WTE_Galway
06-19-2010, 09:49 PM
Some Quotes from "Battle of Britain" by Alfred Price (1990):

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Feldwebel Horst Schults, Do 17 Geshwader 3:

I returned to Antwerp on one engine. I did not land at my base, but at an emergency landing ground a little way away. I made a wheels down landing with both main wheels locked and the tyres cut to ribbons.

As the Dornier touched down it stood on its nose and slid along the ground on the nose and two main wheels. When the plane came to a halt, the tail dropped to the ground with a crash. We were home!

The radio-operator lowered the entry hatch and a stream of spent cartridge cases clattered on the grass. Carefully we lowered the wounded flight engineer to the ground and carried him 20 meters clear of the plane. Then we lit up cigarettes - that was one of the most enjoyable I ever smoked!

At first there was nobody around, then some civilians appeared and finally some German soldiers arrived and summoned an ambulance. With the radio-operator I walked round the aircraft to inspect the damage, stroking the trusty Dornier that had brought us home. There were more than 200 hundred bullet holes. I peeped inside the cowling of the starboard engine to see what was wrong with it. An entire cylinder head had been shot away and was lying in the bottom of the cowling." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oberleutnant Hans Smoller-Hady, Bf109 Geshwader 54:

I was able to fly a captures Spitfire at Jever ... (Smoller-Hady thinks spitfire had a "beautiful engine" and was easier to fly but prefers 109 citing better performance and better pilots view, however ...) For fighter versus fighter combat I thought the Spitfire was better armed than the 109. The cannon fitted to the 109 were not much use against enemy fighters, and the machine guns on top of the engine often suffered stoppages. The cannon were good if they scored a hit, but the rate of fire was very low. The cannon had greater range than the machine guns. But we were always told that in a dog fight one could not hope to hit anything at ranges greater than 50 meters, it was necessary to close in to short range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Xiolablu3
06-20-2010, 07:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
I think we need to bear in mind that an "acceptable" kill rate for a real pilot and a gamer are different.

Now ignoring the fact that many gamers feel they are better shots than the real pilots of the day lets do a comparison.

A Battle of Britain RAF pilot that flew say 20 sorties over 2 weeks and shot down one he111 every 4th mission would be an "Ace" in a fortnight and a hero at the local pilots mess and may even make the newspapers.

A typical gamer achieving one kill every 4 missions would be online complaining that the "game DM is over-modeled and their is no way these results are historical". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed 100%

DKoor
06-20-2010, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
Guys I don't know about you, but just consider this... you fly as crewman, a part of the German bomber assaulting the Great Britain...

Now all goes well then all of a sudden you see a fighter plane approaching fast onto your bomber and opens fire in close range.
As much as I try to picture it I can't comprehend what made those Germans (if they survived) enter that bomber again, aside the fear from the fire squad... it is a true nightmare scenario. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew a man who flew bombers in WWII and got a head wound in a B-29 that allowed him to go home. But he did not. He stayed
and kept going until the end of the war.

Why he did it was "I could have gone home but the others had to stay and I could not leave them as long as I could fight.".

I can tell you that this has kept many ground-pounders in the field as well. You stay with your brothers, where you are needed.
You can't bear to desert them.
It's -not- universal by any means, not even the majority in some units and wars, but it does apply in many cases regardless.

IME in units where it's mostly every man for himself and a lot of petty backstabbing going on, 'short' is a great feeling but
even then you'll always have buddies you'll miss who will show up in the odd weird dream years and years later. Funny but if
I knew some of them were in danger and I could help, I'd want to be there too despite the danger.

You go back for your buddies or mates or comrades or brothers, as long as you have any. Or maybe you go back for yourself.
I wouldn't trust anyone next to me who had to be forced to be there anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wont be dragging this issue a lot further I will just say that this is among prime examples why they send 18-year olds in the war and why we wont be seeing many 30-year olds charging in the first lines.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We had a great war 19 years ago in my country there was literally whole country involved in it, idealism was extremely high people moral very very high... nowadays if I see a guy in a wheelchair I cannot but to think "poor sob, he can't even get laid".

Well... I guess some people get to the point where they asks themsevels "was it worth it", I just hope after 10 years they can still eagerly say "yes it was", not to me, you or their "brothers" but themselves in their heads.

M_Gunz
06-20-2010, 03:01 PM
In Joe Worseley's case it was 1998-2003 that he felt the same about events in WWII. But he got laid later and had
the children to prove it.
Sorry you've got no buddies you couldn't abandon, given a choice. People die for less every day. What is worse by
far is when they send others off to kill and die for them, their interests/jobs/politics. Now that's MORALS!

Not far from me is a neighborhood where you can get shot for wearing an article of clothing that has the wrong
color, say red or blue, depending on which street you stand. Or being there at the wrong time or having the wrong
shade of skin. I spent four days in hospital with kidney damage back in 76 for having just that problem myself.
But I shouldn't care so much for people I think are worth it? Or for what I believe is right? Sorry, no.

I've hung it over the line many times just for thrills and riding fast so how special is it all anyway?
I don't walk straight or without pain from some old injuries and that last wreck especially but when I sometimes
think how I could be if I hadn't done things where I took extreme chances, what I'd be missing ain't worth it.

DKoor
06-20-2010, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
What is worse by
far is when they send others off to kill and die for them, their interests/jobs/politics. Now that's MORALS! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>You just underpinned and summarized whole my thoughts in a single sentence...

My best buddy and me often joke about it; when the next big war here happens (and it will sooner or later) we will both happily volunteer to serve in the congressmen son's elite units...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

mortoma
06-20-2010, 08:24 PM
That's strange, I had a Battle of Britain mission scenario made up with the help of the UP mods and when I flew Brit, I flew only Hurris and Spits equipped with .303 guns and never had much trouble downing HE-111s with them. Sometimes sending them down in flames right away. Or 'straight away' as the Brits themselves would say!!

Of course there were many bombers that succumbed to slow deaths from damaged engines, but few of them made it to French soil anyway.

Xiolablu3
06-21-2010, 07:21 AM
As in real life you have to get stupidly close to score a sure kill with the .303's.

Its the first thing that real aces tell the rookies in WW2. Once you think are close enough 'get closer'.

Its why everyone was rushing to equip aircraft with cannons...

thefruitbat
06-21-2010, 07:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:

Its the first thing that real aces tell the rookies in WW2. Once you think are close enough 'get closer'.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

except in il2 this will get you killed quite often, as when the plane in front explodes, it will take you with it, its best not to get that close http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

M_Gunz
06-21-2010, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
As in real life you have to get stupidly close to score a sure kill with the .303's.

Its the first thing that real aces tell the rookies in WW2. Once you think are close enough 'get closer'.

Its why everyone was rushing to equip aircraft with cannons... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The more off-six you are, the more effective any guns in IL2 become. You can't even get a clear shot at the
cockpit or engine unless you're not on his six.

The faster your plane is closing on the target, the more effective the guns are at any range. You don't have
to be flying faster to be closing on him if you are coming in from the side or front. The thing about head-on
though is if his engine and/or armor glass is in the way then you're better off at least 30 degrees to the
side, noting that measuring angle by clock numbers it is 30 degrees between one and the next.

Convergence hits count the most but unless you park behind the target you won't be at convergence for long!
Oh well, virtual life can be rough and no one said it would be fair did they? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Waldo.Pepper
06-21-2010, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
As much as I try to picture it I can't comprehend what made those Germans (if they survived) enter that bomber again, aside the fear from the fire squad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Despite serving in the air force of a ruthless dictatorship some German aircrew REFUSED to fly further during the Battle of Britain (and presumably other campaigns). Kind of amazing when you think of it.

The following if from Fighter Pilot by George Barclay page 163

"He was very interested to hear that three-quarters of the school had been occupied by enemy troops and the dormitories transformed into a hospital for Luftwaffe pilots. As I told him that during the Battle of Britain the dormitories were full and some of the pilots, refusing to fly again, had been taken by lorries to an unknown place..."

Despite this rather ominous cliff hanger of an ending of this passage, I would suggest that they were not killed but rather transferred to other duties. Were it revealed that wounded Luftwaffe crews were killed (or otherwise dealt with harshly) morale would have suffered irreparably. Human nature (in the form of sensible self-preservation) triumphs over coercion yet again.

Ba5tard5word
06-21-2010, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well what can I say guys, thanks for the advice! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What did you change in your setup and/or tactics?

DKoor
06-21-2010, 02:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ba5tard5word:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well what can I say guys, thanks for the advice! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What did you change in your setup and/or tactics? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>My bet is on switch to something that is loaded with cannons...

...longshot, with a bit of luck maybe flying something that doesn't carry guns at all, say transport C-47. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

jarink
06-21-2010, 02:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
As much as I try to picture it I can't comprehend what made those Germans (if they survived) enter that bomber again, aside the fear from the fire squad. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Despite serving in the air force of a ruthless dictatorship some German aircrew REFUSED to fly further during the Battle of Britain (and presumably other campaigns). Kind of amazing when you think of it.

The following if from Fighter Pilot by George Barclay page 163

"He was very interested to hear that three-quarters of the school had been occupied by enemy troops and the dormitories transformed into a hospital for Luftwaffe pilots. As I told him that during the Battle of Britain the dormitories were full and some of the pilots, refusing to fly again, had been taken by lorries to an unknown place..."

Despite this rather ominous cliff hanger of an ending of this passage, I would suggest that they were not killed but rather transferred to other duties. Were it revealed that wounded Luftwaffe crews were killed (or otherwise dealt with harshly) morale would have suffered irreparably. Human nature (in the form of sensible self-preservation) triumphs over coercion yet again. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess would be they found themselves in a Luftwaffe Field Division serving as infantry!

Waldo.Pepper
06-21-2010, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
My guess would be they found themselves in a Luftwaffe Field Division serving as infantry! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be, or they changed their mind and got their nerve back after they had some time. As trained aircrew they are a valuable asset. To leave them in the hospital spewing their demoralizing views would have been intolerable for the remainder of those crews who were still flying. Better to get them away from their mates.

ROXunreal
06-21-2010, 06:41 PM
I just got this crazy idea to load up QMB and try to shoot down a friendly B-17 with the hurri on limited ammo

WTE_Galway
06-21-2010, 08:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ROXunreal:
I just got this crazy idea to load up QMB and try to shoot down a friendly B-17 with the hurri on limited ammo </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I shot down a B29 in a Gladiator once http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well admittedly i had to use FMB to make the B29 fly very low and slow ....


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/clannagh/b29c_800.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/clannagh/b29b_800.jpg

TheCrux
06-22-2010, 12:02 AM
What a coincidence I should see this thread, as I just had a .303 experience on the receiving end.

I was flying online earlier in a winter map in the northern USSR, me and 2 others. We took He-111's with torpedos and got mauled pretty good by red-tracered Hurricanes...not the cannon equipped ones. Oh we got mauled by P-40E's and Mig-3's ( with 2 Shvaks ) as well but the hail of .303's was more of like death by a thousand small cuts. Fuel leaks, engines smoking, dead gunners, the rudder my only fight control ( other than flaps ) made me low and slow and easy prey to Migs yet still a good 3 grids form a successful RTB...assuming I could even land. I'm not going to shrug off a fighter with 8 or 12 .303's anymore.

Kernow
06-24-2010, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
BTW some of you guys really underestimate firearms... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've always wanted to find someone who thinks .303s are pea-shooters, put them in an aluminium can at 300 yds and fire a 5-sec burst from just one .303 at them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fox_3
06-24-2010, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
BTW some of you guys really underestimate firearms... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've always wanted to find someone who thinks .303s are pea-shooters, put them in an aluminium can at 300 yds and fire a 5-sec burst from just one .303 at them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't want to do that at 1000 yards let alone 300.

Xiolablu3
06-28-2010, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fox_3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
BTW some of you guys really underestimate firearms... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've always wanted to find someone who thinks .303s are pea-shooters, put them in an aluminium can at 300 yds and fire a 5-sec burst from just one .303 at them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't want to do that at 1000 yards let alone 300. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree, I think we are all talking about bringing down aircraft only. One .303 aircraft machine gun would make a real mess of a man. The rate of fire is much higher than ground weapons. Only the MG42 has the same rof as aircraft machine guns.

Saburo_0
07-27-2010, 12:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jarink:
My guess would be they found themselves in a Luftwaffe Field Division serving as infantry! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could be, or they changed their mind and got their nerve back after they had some time. As trained aircrew they are a valuable asset. To leave them in the hospital spewing their demoralizing views would have been intolerable for the remainder of those crews who were still flying. Better to get them away from their mates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Early on in the war esp. aircrew were volunteers. It was possible to say I cant take this, loyalty to friends/shame were the only real forces keeping people in their units. I've read accounts of 8th air force pilots/crew who couldn't take it etc. It's just not usually talked about much.

Saburo_0
07-27-2010, 12:20 AM
I thought I'd read before that post BoB the Germans increase the armor on the He111 and Suka and that the game has the up armored versions?

WTE_Galway
07-27-2010, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Saburo_0:
I thought I'd read before that post BoB the Germans increase the armor on the He111 and Suka and that the game has the up armored versions? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I know we have in-game the He111 H2 and H6 as flyable whereas the armor was not improved until the He111 H-11 variant.

I have no idea about Stuka models.

DKoor
07-27-2010, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fox_3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kernow:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
BTW some of you guys really underestimate firearms... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've always wanted to find someone who thinks .303s are pea-shooters, put them in an aluminium can at 300 yds and fire a 5-sec burst from just one .303 at them http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't want to do that at 1000 yards let alone 300. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree, I think we are all talking about bringing down aircraft only. One .303 aircraft machine gun would make a real mess of a man. The rate of fire is much higher than ground weapons. Only the MG42 has the same rof as aircraft machine guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wouldn't even be surprised if, IRL, you take Hurri with 8 machine guns and shoot 5 sec concentrated burst into one point of Heinkel's wing and that it collapses afterwards...

Trouble is when people open fire from BS distances such is 500m up to 1km and more, spread fire all over the place, and say "whoa, see? MG isn't enough to down a bomber, it's been hit hundreds of times it still can more or less fly".

That same He-111 would most likely happily go down under few sec of 8 MG Hurri's concentrated fire on wingroot/fuel tank from 100-200m or less.

Since of ricochets/armor fitted in that area, I guess the most effective way would be eagle like attack from above, it shouldn't present too much of a challenge (to hit the area).

DKoor
07-27-2010, 06:59 AM
PS. I'm eager to see just how the DM and .303 fits together in BoB... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.easilysharing.com/images/22515969972325297040.jpg

...no luck herehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Sillius_Sodus
07-27-2010, 04:30 PM
.303's are fine, try not to shoot from dead 6 and aim for the wings. This will usually cause enough damage to hinder maneuverability for fighters, and will cause some pretty big fuel leaks with bombers.

Saburo_0
07-28-2010, 11:51 PM
I also think that the majority of inexperienced pilots opened fire way too far out. I also think they thought they were much closer than they really were.
It all has to happen very fast and also has to be terrifying, so blame is intended by my comment.