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TicioQ
01-17-2019, 11:50 AM
Currently now, I really think that all the wu lin is ridiculous overpowered (special mention to the monk, that I still unable to beat).

I understand that they are this way so people would expend money purchasing them. Ok, but now that new characters are coming, should we expect the wu lin to be finally nerfed?

Just the right amount to be able to compete to them...

PD: we must assume that the new roster will star super overpowered, no?

Siegfried-Z
01-17-2019, 12:34 PM
Currently now, I really think that all the wu lin is ridiculous overpowered (special mention to the monk, that I still unable to beat).

I understand that they are this way so people would expend money purchasing them. Ok, but now that new characters are coming, should we expect the wu lin to be finally nerfed?

Just the right amount to be able to compete to them...

PD: we must assume that the new roster will star super overpowered, no?

They already said all the wulins are being monitored and they gonna make some changes (probably with s9 coming soon) considering the data they have.

But tbh :
-Shaolin has been nerf already
-I dont see why Nuxia should be nerf, she is fine
-Tiandi is horrible but design wise. He is not too strong his kit is just a cancer spam as hell but i don't see how devs could nerf him without making him too weak
-JJ kit is ok bit his dmg and feats should be nerf looking at his insane 4v4 performances

Corentin10111
01-17-2019, 02:30 PM
Guys i think that we need to say if we talk about pc or console version to be understood.

NickyNoNeko
01-17-2019, 02:39 PM
No, WuLin don't deserve a nerf, it's the rest of the cast that need a huge buff

Shaolin is fine, he's strong but fine, every characters should be like him
JJ is kinda fine, maybe a little bit too much damages
Nuxia is meh actually, she deserves more than just "light spam"
Tiandi is fine

TicioQ
01-17-2019, 02:56 PM
That sound fair enough to me, I really think that the original roster need an overhaul to compete with the new one (better idea that to drag the others to a mediocre ground).

I agree with everyone that not all the characters of tiandi are OP (Nuxia and tiandi) but I cannot understand how people donít think shaolin is.

As I posted in other threads, shaolin is my cryptonite so maybe Iím biased but I see him as a character that can respond to all the movements of others and can spam too.

For JJ, I think is op but just in games with 4 players. So is not so problematic.

NickyNoNeko
01-17-2019, 03:25 PM
Shaolin has unfavorable MU against conq, warlord and zerker.
Zerker is a special case since he's stronger than almost every char

So to counter Shaolin you have to prevent him to go to Qui stance, and solid guard heroes can do that pretty well.

lastly, according to the Setmyx tiers list Shaolin is A tiers in 1vs1 and 4vs4, so not OP, he's just strong

Liduras
01-17-2019, 08:51 PM
Warden and Conqueror are still the most OP characters. Warden is free for everyone and Conqueror is free for the players who choose knights.

Wu Lin are only noob stompers. At high level, Warden and Conqueror are ridiculously OP, but Wu Lin are useless.

Against 17 out of 22 heroes, Warden can continuously spam his safe and unreactable shoulderbash to force his oppenent to play an unfair luck game.

Ranked and duel modes are destroyed by Warden's SB and Conqueror's SB. If you don't play with one of Warden's and Conqueror's counters (or Warden and Conqueror), forget about playing duel and ranked, because you can't win 90% of the matches.

Complaining about Wu Lin instead of Warden and Conqueror is ridiculous.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
01-18-2019, 12:06 AM
I have more issues with Shaolin than any other character. I can fight the level 3 bot fine but when I fight players they just abuse the hell out of his kit. Kickbash light spam kick bash lightspam. You cannt gb him worth a damn even if you block his attacks.

Tatsu147146
01-18-2019, 12:15 PM
Yeah, Shaolin is definitely the one I take the most issue with from the WuLin. He has an answer to anything and basically no way to punish him, especially if he goes into Qi stance you can't predict squat he is free to do anything from that even feint an undodgeable attack which is unheard off in any other kit EVER. To me if Shaolin goes into Qi stance from a light attack then he should only have his light attacks from Qi stance and kick, and only the heavy attacks from a heavy into Qi stance that way there is some actual reading you can do instead of guessing (wrongly).

P.S. I also hate what they did with Conqueror and Warden I don't even understand their reasoning for any of the reworks in the way that they did it, except Kensei I think he is the most balanced rework/character of them all.

UbiInsulin
01-18-2019, 11:35 PM
That sound fair enough to me, I really think that the original roster need an overhaul to compete with the new one (better idea that to drag the others to a mediocre ground).

I agree with everyone that not all the characters of tiandi are OP (Nuxia and tiandi) but I cannot understand how people don’t think shaolin is.

As I posted in other threads, shaolin is my cryptonite so maybe I’m biased but I see him as a character that can respond to all the movements of others and can spam too.

For JJ, I think is op but just in games with 4 players. So is not so problematic.

Your post is pretty reflective of the competitive community's opinion at the moment: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0 . Changes are always possible, but it's difficult to speak about the Wu Lin as a unit. They're 4 heroes that all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

BanzaiPizzaLord said, "it's the rest of the cast that need a huge buff." We've confirmed that Shugoki, Warlord, and Peacekeeper will all receive Hero updates with Year 3 Season 1.

Jazz117Volkov
01-19-2019, 09:31 PM
Your post is pretty reflective of the competitive community's opinion at the moment: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bk6y7jw2ujLrjm0Zzbb4aEZUV13gyGoy-IobrkfNgaY/edit#gid=0 . Changes are always possible, but it's difficult to speak about the Wu Lin as a unit. They're 4 heroes that all have their own strengths and weaknesses.

BanzaiPizzaLord said, "it's the rest of the cast that need a huge buff." We've confirmed that Shugoki, Warlord, and Peacekeeper will all receive Hero updates with Year 3 Season 1.The Wu Lin will always be obnoxious to deal with because their kits deny other kits access to reactive counters. Bashes, 400 ms lights, and undodgables are always at their fingertips. To fight them you basically just have to be more patient. That is, don't attack them, but also, don't react.

Do not confuse this with them being generically overpowered; much of the Wu Lin damage output is reasonable. It's about them forcing encounters down to a narrower spectrum of viable tactics. And before you say "the competitive community don't see this as a problem", of course they don't, the competitive community only use three moves in the game anyway. They won't and don't do anything that isn't safe. The Wu Lin effectively force everyone to play like competitive players, which, aside from being incredibly boring, is unfair to the people who just want to play for fun.

For Honor has unfortunately become something I give my attention out of morbid curiosity. There's painfully little movement on topics that matter. It's just the same old "more content" routine. Another hero at the end of the month. No update on zone input, no talk on the absolute rubbish stamina system or revenge system, and how they both feed directly into crippling offense, no discussion on how to make more of each kit viable, no talk on how to bring each hero's move-set and mix-up variety in-line with each other, or what attributes exist or can be implemented to substitute raw parity.


Really feels like this game has become a meme-infested competitive test-tube. The game we all wanted is a distant memory.

MatsumotoXIII
01-20-2019, 11:17 AM
Ubi say Wu-Lin is OK couse :

Nobushi: bleed + HS + kick
Conq: SB and full block
Valk : tripping + 1 known combo

Nuxia : light spam, traps and IK combo
Tiandi : dodges, fist bash, kick, superarmour
JJ : kick, stamina stance (full stam then u do 1 light attack?!) dodges, DMG, life, broken animation
Ape: stance, tripping, light spam guarant, kick, teleport, dodges

Ubi just take all special moves from 18 old champs and give them to 4 new champs and make them bit more better ofc.
But sure. Move set and balance wu-sh*t is absolutly OK :mad:

TicioQ
01-20-2019, 12:15 PM
Well, I have to admit that I wrote the post when I was very upset.
I just loose spectacularly to a team of 2 JJ, 1 Nuxia and one shaolin.

I really think what I said but maybe I was in a little rage after being destroyed by shaolin.

But even with that, I really thinks shaolin is a bit op. Every time he cancels my deflect or make damage though it I want to quit the game for ever (you have to think that I alredy lost half of my life trying to deflect this mutherF...)

ytrecvbnm
01-20-2019, 01:34 PM
The JJ needs to be toned down a bit.

I'm bad at this game, but can hop on the JJ and start ripping people apart in seconds. He hits hard, has a lot of health, and is fast. Other heavies I use are so slow I hope the battle doesn't end before I get there.

Corentin10111
01-20-2019, 02:42 PM
Your post is pretty reflective of the competitive community's opinion at the moment

I have to say that the community repeat for a long time that it is stupid to refer to the competitive community (top 1%) to balance the game. The truth is that most of the community think that Kensei is the most balanced character and that the rest of the roster sould try to get to his level of versality. Not Turning everyone into an impredictable pain like Shaolin. (i talk especially about console where the majority of the playerbase is)

And i want to add that EVERY stropol that i saw about the direction the game took showed that the community on this forum think that it is a bad direction.

Helnekromancer
01-20-2019, 02:52 PM
JJ needs to be nerfed

He does do much damage tone down the numbers, he doesn't need a 38 dmg light combo or a 28dmg zone attack right out of sifu and nerf his feats and perks. Why would you give a Tank Revenge Attacks and Deadly, it takes forever to kill this guy unless you use a hero to rush him down, when you don't it's like chipping away at a mountain with the stupid amount of max health he gains from perks and feats. And right when you are about to kill him he gets 20% more damage resistance. He hits fast, he swings fast, he moves fast, and he has a lot of health.

Tiandi is fine, he's just annoying.

Nuxia sucks (rep 11 with her),rarely see one unless she is lvl 15 or something and someone wants to test out the new light spammer on console. No one wants to play the only assassin in the game who deflect and gimmick barely works and this still baffles me as to why she's left like this.

Shaolin is ok, just have to cope with the fact that For Honor is a magical game, and no matter who I'm fighting or where I am on the map this monkey can pop out of thin air and land a free heavy on me.

Its like they put all their time into making JJ, Shaolin, and Tiandi as annoying to fight against as possible and forgot they had a 4th hero.

Siegfried-Z
01-20-2019, 05:03 PM
JJ needs to be nerfed

He does do much damage tone down the numbers, he doesn't need a 38 dmg light combo or a 28dmg zone attack right out of sifu and nerf his feats and perks. Why would you give a Tank Revenge Attacks and Deadly, it takes forever to kill this guy unless you use a hero to rush him down, when you don't it's like chipping away at a mountain with the stupid amount of max health he gains from perks and feats. And right when you are about to kill him he gets 20% more damage resistance. He hits fast, he swings fast, he moves fast, and he has a lot of health.

Tiandi is fine, he's just annoying.

Nuxia sucks (rep 11 with her),rarely see one unless she is lvl 15 or something and someone wants to test out the new light spammer on console. No one wants to play the only assassin in the game who deflect and gimmick barely works and this still baffles me as to why she's left like this.

Shaolin is ok, just have to cope with the fact that For Honor is a magical game, and no matter who I'm fighting or where I am on the map this monkey can pop out of thin air and land a free heavy on me.

Its like they put all their time into making JJ, Shaolin, and Tiandi as annoying to fight against as possible and forgot they had a 4th hero.

Amen. That's it.

JJ has been made so powerful in 4v4 that you just want to leave when you see a team of these guys..

Shaolin is strong too, not op but very strong because he can shut down most others offense in the game.


Tiandi, while not too strong, he is fine, just good, is the char i maybe hate the most.. he is so annoying.. it's like they've made him to makes people quit the game. He is just good a giving noobs the feeling they are correct at the game.


And then it looks they didn't have time anymore and made a trash nuxia lol


Tbh i'm not a fan of the wulins at all. I like Shaolin design Wise and he is fun to play but as the 3 others he is not fun at all to fight against.


If we would have an option to play without the wulins i would sign right away.

Jazz117Volkov
01-21-2019, 12:42 PM
Its like they put all their time into making JJ, Shaolin, and Tiandi as annoying to fight against as possible and forgot they had a 4th hero.Most accurate description of the Wu Lin I've seen.

The thing that actually stood out to me first was the animation quality. Nuxia is super stiff and her stances and load screen pose are really awkward. And the ninja run on a Chinese character...it just bad. Maybe they ran out of budget and since Tiandi is the poster boy, and JJ and Shaolin are the regional golden boys, Nuxia took the full brunt of development constraints. They probably had to get Marching Fire completely done by the end of the year, despite a segmented release being far better for both the product and the players.

But the developers I doubt will ever discuss that. I doubt they're allowed. Transparency at that level is a big no no in basically all businesses. It's better to make poor quality look deliberate than it is to acknowledge a flaw in the process. EA fall victim to this all the time. Stakeholders demand X, Y, and Z, the team have to make it happen, no matter the costs. Even if Y is a particular release period and the cost is, say, the ending of a beloved franchise.

Such is AAA development.

Mr.Etiam
01-22-2019, 05:29 AM
i dont even understand how someone could even have the audacity to say shaolin doesnt need a nerf thats bizzare to me. first of all his tracking is way to strong on his basic attacks. the stealth and teleprting is toxic to the game when you think your in a corner 1v1'ing someone you nevr see him comming on the mini and still atop of that he teleports to the guy.

its bizzzare.

at that rate you might as well turn this into a mages and wizards type of game where I can throw fire balls from 40 ft away.

SpaceJim12
01-22-2019, 09:28 AM
I just hope Vortiger will be same as Wu Lin. Give him 400ms lights, shield bush feint from heavy, 360 unblockable after parry (JJ have it, and he is heavy, so...). All this OP moves and some OP feats. Give it all to Vortiger and I'll be fine.=)

Corentin10111
01-22-2019, 09:56 AM
I just hope Vortiger will be same as Wu Lin. Give him 400ms lights, shield bush feint from heavy, 360 unblockable after parry (JJ have it, and he is heavy, so...). All this OP moves and some OP feats. Give it all to Vortiger and I'll be fine.=)

Oh he will! Every new character will be OP, cause it is easier to make it OP than balanced...

Sekiro...
01-22-2019, 05:09 PM
dude, ask this is useless, the answer will always be the same.

who plays with the op hero will always say they are fine

UbiInsulin
01-22-2019, 07:48 PM
The Wu Lin will always be obnoxious to deal with because their kits deny other kits access to reactive counters. Bashes, 400 ms lights, and undodgables are always at their fingertips. To fight them you basically just have to be more patient. That is, don't attack them, but also, don't react.

Do not confuse this with them being generically overpowered; much of the Wu Lin damage output is reasonable. It's about them forcing encounters down to a narrower spectrum of viable tactics. And before you say "the competitive community don't see this as a problem", of course they don't, the competitive community only use three moves in the game anyway. They won't and don't do anything that isn't safe. The Wu Lin effectively force everyone to play like competitive players, which, aside from being incredibly boring, is unfair to the people who just want to play for fun.

For Honor has unfortunately become something I give my attention out of morbid curiosity. There's painfully little movement on topics that matter. It's just the same old "more content" routine. Another hero at the end of the month. No update on zone input, no talk on the absolute rubbish stamina system or revenge system, and how they both feed directly into crippling offense, no discussion on how to make more of each kit viable, no talk on how to bring each hero's move-set and mix-up variety in-line with each other, or what attributes exist or can be implemented to substitute raw parity.


Really feels like this game has become a meme-infested competitive test-tube. The game we all wanted is a distant memory.

I guess I would ask you what the broad issues you have with the stamina system are, and what are examples of where you see the problems in practice?

Sometimes people mean different things when they bring up problems with the revenge system, but we have said that we want it to NOT be a boon players get for losing a 1v1 battle. It's being looked at.

It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation. Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?

Not trying to argue back and forth with you, btw, just interested in you expanding on your viewpoint.


I have to say that the community repeat for a long time that it is stupid to refer to the competitive community (top 1%) to balance the game. The truth is that most of the community think that Kensei is the most balanced character and that the rest of the roster sould try to get to his level of versality. Not Turning everyone into an impredictable pain like Shaolin. (i talk especially about console where the majority of the playerbase is)

And i want to add that EVERY stropol that i saw about the direction the game took showed that the community on this forum think that it is a bad direction.

I stay on top of what that community thinks, but I report a healthy mix of opinions to the dev team. I just thought OP's takes ended up very close to the competitive consensus, and that this was worth pointing out.

Siegfried-Z
01-22-2019, 09:31 PM
It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation. Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?


If i may, ability to open a turtle is a very good thing. I Believe this is very important for the game.

BUT, it has to be done smartly. My point is, i understand what Jazz said. Wulins kit are overall slighlty Superior to others char but this small difference have a big impact on the game experience.

For example, Valk or Kensei as many others old char can open a turtle with Tools such as Pommel strike (average tool but still) or Shield crush for valk. These mooves makes the job without being toxic.
Because they can be react to but they allow a mix up gameplay where you have to catch your opponent.


But Wulins got toxic tools to do it :


-I don't think Nuxia is too strong but i every players have complains about 400ms lights and she's got 2 400ms lights in her triple lights chain...
-Tiandi got a 500ms bash from neutral which didn't even require to dodge first AND 400ms 2nd light despite of being a vanguard ...
-Shaolin has a 400ms light from neutral. Only from the top yes but as it is from neutral it allow him to deny many others offense
-JJ... ahh JJ.. A heavy with DMG far above all the others char + 400ms softfeint (easy to parry if spam but still) and Toxic AOE property (360 degree UB Zone parry for example)

So, in my opinion, their kit aren't a good thing for the health of the game design wise. Specially for console.

It hasn't been made in a smart way for the game. Look some Vanguard, hybrids and even assassins still have 600ms lights and Wulins all have 400ms, All.

Tbh in my own experience the game feel less fun since Wulins are there. If we would have an option to turn on such as "play without wulins" i would do it.

it doesn't mean they are op, i think just JJ is in 4v4 and maybe Shaolin Slightly in 1v1.

Just my opinion.

HE-tsunami
01-23-2019, 01:59 AM
His chain lights are the biggest problem. He can throw fast lights that hit everyone in an ark around him. He's a one man team.

UbiInsulin
01-23-2019, 05:01 AM
If i may, ability to open a turtle is a very good thing. I Believe this is very important for the game.

BUT, it has to be done smartly. My point is, i understand what Jazz said. Wulins kit are overall slighlty Superior to others char but this small difference have a big impact on the game experience.

For example, Valk or Kensei as many others old char can open a turtle with Tools such as Pommel strike (average tool but still) or Shield crush for valk. These mooves makes the job without being toxic.
Because they can be react to but they allow a mix up gameplay where you have to catch your opponent.


But Wulins got toxic tools to do it :


-I don't think Nuxia is too strong but i every players have complains about 400ms lights and she's got 2 400ms lights in her triple lights chain...
-Tiandi got a 500ms bash from neutral which didn't even require to dodge first AND 400ms 2nd light despite of being a vanguard ...
-Shaolin has a 400ms light from neutral. Only from the top yes but as it is from neutral it allow him to deny many others offense
-JJ... ahh JJ.. A heavy with DMG far above all the others char + 400ms softfeint (easy to parry if spam but still) and Toxic AOE property (360 degree UB Zone parry for example)

So, in my opinion, their kit aren't a good thing for the health of the game design wise. Specially for console.

It hasn't been made in a smart way for the game. Look some Vanguard, hybrids and even assassins still have 600ms lights and Wulins all have 400ms, All.

Tbh in my own experience the game feel less fun since Wulins are there. If we would have an option to turn on such as "play without wulins" i would do it.

it doesn't mean they are op, i think just JJ is in 4v4 and maybe Shaolin Slightly in 1v1.

Just my opinion.

Thank you for this post. It's much appreciated. :)

Jazz117Volkov
01-23-2019, 07:35 AM
I guess I would ask you what the broad issues you have with the stamina system are, and what are examples of where you see the problems in practice?

Sometimes people mean different things when they bring up problems with the revenge system, but we have said that we want it to NOT be a boon players get for losing a 1v1 battle. It's being looked at.Indeed, it can be hard to pin down exactly what someone means.

My complaint with the stamina is and has always been that it simultaneously punishes the aggressor and rewards the defender by virtue of existing. I think health is what the attacker should risk and stamina is what the defender should risk, at least in simple terms. As it is right now, the attacker is risking both, the defender is risking neither. For example, if you block an attack, you take chip damage...that's about it. If your attack is blocked, you lose a chunk of stamina. If you parry, you lose no health but spend stamina on attacking (which doesn't really count because the offense in this case is guaranteed). If your attack is parried, you lose basically all of your stamina and a chunk of health. See how both health and stamina work to disadvantage the attacker? Ideally, and bare with me on this one, getting heavy parried shouldn't be a big deal, especially for a heavy or vanguard class. Like, a Raider or Warden, and definitely Lawbringer, should feel pretty good about letting their heavies fly, even if they get parried.

I think block and parry stamina consumption should be flipped. If you're parried, your stamina doesn't really take a hit at all, you just lose a bit of health (provided it wasn't a light parry). But if you block an attack, say, a heavy attack, you should lose about a third of your stamina and take chip damage. So getting hammered on by multiple opponents would drain your stamina super quick...which is where Revenge should have its place. If defense was tied to stamina I think the OOS state should change; keep your attack speed and combos, but make chip damage 50% the attacks original damage, and probably keep the unbalance throw property. Then Revenge, in addition to giving you a shield, would really only need to give you infinite stamina for its duration to make a super tank while getting ganked. I say super tank, because in the context of these changes, turtling would be very undesirable.

Otherwise, as an overall, I think the entire cast need a bit more stamina. And to review how all these systems currently work against the aggressor, it's not unheard of for me to encounter a situation where I have to spend nearly all my stamina just to open a turtle (feinting, dodging, bashing, etc. whatever tools my hero has) and finally, when he's almost done, I'm out of stamina...and he gets revenge. It's incredibly frustrating.

If stamina isn't crippling offense, people are throwing more heavies, this means feints work better. If feints work better, offense is more effective.

Obviously these changes will have lesser effects the higher you climb on the tier list, because tournament players are playing a different game anyway. But all the same, I think it's really worth considering. And even if none of these suggestions are truly good ideas in the long run, I do believe the stamina and revenge need to be high priority and changed to not only favour the defender.




It sounds like some of the issues you've brought up (fast lights, bashes/ways to initiate safely) indicate you'd like the game to be more defensive/reactive, which is something that we all know used to be a major problem/topic of conversation.

Let me know if I'm over-simplifying your viewpoint, though. I think there's a fine line to walk between stylistic diversity and making heroes viable. Isn't opening up turtles a good thing for a hero to be capable of doing?I'm not convinced the best approach was taken in fixing the turtle problems. I think that issue was a fault of the auxiliary systems like stamina and revenge coupled with the strength of parries. Making the game more abusive only treats the symptoms, not the causes.


Not trying to argue back and forth with you, btw, just interested in you expanding on your viewpoint.Nah, don't be worried about something silly like that. I appreciate the dialogue.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
01-24-2019, 12:49 AM
"I'm not convinced the best approach was taken in fixing the turtle problems. I think that issue was a fault of the auxiliary systems like stamina and revenge coupled with the strength of parries. Making the game more abusive only treats the symptoms, not the causes."

...I agree with this. When/if all the roster has/had a bash...well I wonder what the game would be like without 400ms lights, stamina bars, revenge, and no more parries exhaustion.