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F19_Ob
12-19-2003, 11:21 AM
First of all I like to say that109 is still my favorite although I give much credit to yak3 performance.

Its important to know the enemy so I have "secretly" tested the yak3 on GreaterGreen.
I knew already before that an ace flying the yak3 or la7 is almost untuchable for a 109k4 pilot if they dont sr*w up badly ofcource .

Actually the transition from 109k4 to yak3 was quite difficult in the beginning since the yak is so light on the controls.In my first flights i was constantly stalling when i tried to use the elevator in "109style" and that didnt work. But now I understand much better why there is no escape for the 109k4 pilot.


All who love the messerschmitt soon gets aware of the fact that the 109 have mostly disadvantages compared to advantages especially against later planes such as yak3 and La7. If u are aware of them u might save ur skin.
-------------------------------------------------

"The 109k4 disadvantages compared to yak3"

1. Obstructed view and dirty windows= makes it difficult to track, and easy to loose sight of the enemy. Especially on night,and wintermaps.If ur winscreen gets oiled u cant see.....in comparison yak3 has the best visibility and clear glass and very little oil when "oiled"

"2" 109's bleed much energy when turning ,climbing or slightly damaged. Yak3 bleeds very little speed in all angles and in a shallow dive it accellerates much faster than the 109 and even keeps the gained speed longer ,whereas the 109 starts bleeding it immediatly when leveled out.

The 109 can reach 560 km/h with radiator closed and full boost at 200m. And yak 3 has 550 km/h at same altitude but by a shallow dive down to 100m it can get the speed up fast and keep it for alonger period than the 109,wich starts bleeding speed very quicklu above 560km/h. This is how the yak3 easily can catch the 109 and the yak3 engine is very resistant against overheating compared to the 109.
Another good feature is that the yak3 can fly constantly without overheating, at 95% - 99% power with radiator closed at a speed of 525-530km/h at 200m alt.
the bf109k4 only reaches 500 km/h at same altitude at 99% power and radiator closed( without boost)....

"3" The 109k4 has ok ammo but its bad compared to yak3 . Yak3 has fast firing and flat trajectory on both cannon and machineguns.
Although the 109K4 has the 30mm canon( wich sound good) but infact the K4 burst is inferior
to the yak3 burst bcause it can only damage on short distances and infact have a smaller punch? I discovered that yak3 can shoot down b17's much easier than the 109K4 even if i only used the machineguns at long distance they did more damage than the 30mm cannon of the messerschmitt (try it your selves)i tested it at least 40 times ( 20 on both).
So against fighters the yak3 only need the mg's and still just cuts the fuselage in half on the bf109.

When firing with the yak3 shoot only short burst bcause it fires so rapidly.And the yak only have to damage the 109 slightly and it will be totally at his mercy...there is no escape.



"4" Muzzleflashes are big on 109's but small on yak3 and the cannonflash is tiny.

"5" 109 k4 bullets have "Arching trajectory" compared to yak3 "flat trajectory" wich means that u have to pull more lead in the badturning plane( 109).whereas the yak only have to pull minor lead.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now u say that I must be wrong ...bcause yak3's have infact been shot down on GreaterGreen...

My answer is after examining hundreds of tracks
1_newbies die bcause they are unfamiliar and clumsy( in the beginning..no offence ment)

2 A few lucky bounces

3 FURBALLS is the major reason for yak3 and La7 being downed. Its quite easy to dodge 2 109's ,but when the sky is filled with 20 or more aircraft its not easy for either side to keep track of them... This is the foremost reason for the yak Kills....and many 109 kills.

and maybe...only maybe the deflectionskill of many 109 pilots that hit at impossible angles at long distances.



So the advice is...Get mixed up in the furball and never get alone with the yak3 or find friendlies in a hurry......



but still considering this there is no doubt in my mind who has the upper hand.
As I said i flew the yak3 on GG and the 109s had little chance and i could mostly disengag at will wich was impossible for the K4..........I even "played with the enemy without shooting... and i actually felt pretty bad so I just left them wondering....yes it was me (sorry about that) anyway in my mind yak3 is the absolutley best plane in Fb...your knees will never shake in this onehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

F19_Ob
12-19-2003, 11:21 AM
First of all I like to say that109 is still my favorite although I give much credit to yak3 performance.

Its important to know the enemy so I have "secretly" tested the yak3 on GreaterGreen.
I knew already before that an ace flying the yak3 or la7 is almost untuchable for a 109k4 pilot if they dont sr*w up badly ofcource .

Actually the transition from 109k4 to yak3 was quite difficult in the beginning since the yak is so light on the controls.In my first flights i was constantly stalling when i tried to use the elevator in "109style" and that didnt work. But now I understand much better why there is no escape for the 109k4 pilot.


All who love the messerschmitt soon gets aware of the fact that the 109 have mostly disadvantages compared to advantages especially against later planes such as yak3 and La7. If u are aware of them u might save ur skin.
-------------------------------------------------

"The 109k4 disadvantages compared to yak3"

1. Obstructed view and dirty windows= makes it difficult to track, and easy to loose sight of the enemy. Especially on night,and wintermaps.If ur winscreen gets oiled u cant see.....in comparison yak3 has the best visibility and clear glass and very little oil when "oiled"

"2" 109's bleed much energy when turning ,climbing or slightly damaged. Yak3 bleeds very little speed in all angles and in a shallow dive it accellerates much faster than the 109 and even keeps the gained speed longer ,whereas the 109 starts bleeding it immediatly when leveled out.

The 109 can reach 560 km/h with radiator closed and full boost at 200m. And yak 3 has 550 km/h at same altitude but by a shallow dive down to 100m it can get the speed up fast and keep it for alonger period than the 109,wich starts bleeding speed very quicklu above 560km/h. This is how the yak3 easily can catch the 109 and the yak3 engine is very resistant against overheating compared to the 109.
Another good feature is that the yak3 can fly constantly without overheating, at 95% - 99% power with radiator closed at a speed of 525-530km/h at 200m alt.
the bf109k4 only reaches 500 km/h at same altitude at 99% power and radiator closed( without boost)....

"3" The 109k4 has ok ammo but its bad compared to yak3 . Yak3 has fast firing and flat trajectory on both cannon and machineguns.
Although the 109K4 has the 30mm canon( wich sound good) but infact the K4 burst is inferior
to the yak3 burst bcause it can only damage on short distances and infact have a smaller punch? I discovered that yak3 can shoot down b17's much easier than the 109K4 even if i only used the machineguns at long distance they did more damage than the 30mm cannon of the messerschmitt (try it your selves)i tested it at least 40 times ( 20 on both).
So against fighters the yak3 only need the mg's and still just cuts the fuselage in half on the bf109.

When firing with the yak3 shoot only short burst bcause it fires so rapidly.And the yak only have to damage the 109 slightly and it will be totally at his mercy...there is no escape.



"4" Muzzleflashes are big on 109's but small on yak3 and the cannonflash is tiny.

"5" 109 k4 bullets have "Arching trajectory" compared to yak3 "flat trajectory" wich means that u have to pull more lead in the badturning plane( 109).whereas the yak only have to pull minor lead.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now u say that I must be wrong ...bcause yak3's have infact been shot down on GreaterGreen...

My answer is after examining hundreds of tracks
1_newbies die bcause they are unfamiliar and clumsy( in the beginning..no offence ment)

2 A few lucky bounces

3 FURBALLS is the major reason for yak3 and La7 being downed. Its quite easy to dodge 2 109's ,but when the sky is filled with 20 or more aircraft its not easy for either side to keep track of them... This is the foremost reason for the yak Kills....and many 109 kills.

and maybe...only maybe the deflectionskill of many 109 pilots that hit at impossible angles at long distances.



So the advice is...Get mixed up in the furball and never get alone with the yak3 or find friendlies in a hurry......



but still considering this there is no doubt in my mind who has the upper hand.
As I said i flew the yak3 on GG and the 109s had little chance and i could mostly disengag at will wich was impossible for the K4..........I even "played with the enemy without shooting... and i actually felt pretty bad so I just left them wondering....yes it was me (sorry about that) anyway in my mind yak3 is the absolutley best plane in Fb...your knees will never shake in this onehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FMJ3G
12-19-2003, 12:04 PM
That was a very interesting post. Thanx.

S77th-brooks
12-19-2003, 12:08 PM
heres good site bf ticks http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/109instructions.html

noshens
12-19-2003, 12:13 PM
bf109 is much better than yak3, it outclimbs, outdives, outshoots the thing. One hit is generaly enought to wreck yak3 (i dont' fight b17, sry), bf can easily outclimb yak3 and if the last tries to go after you its engine will loose its normal power at high altitutes. And as far as i know there are more bf109 flying than yak3s on hl or anywhere else.

http://www.img.net/cliff-m/vvn/me262.jpg

georgeo76
12-19-2003, 12:27 PM
The solution is, as always, E advantage, and, or a wingman. As long as you are smart and patient, the E advantage equalizes all AC, and two rookie wingman are worth four lone aces.

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"Oh bliss, bliss and heaven. Oh, it was gorgeousness and gorgeosity made flesh. It was like a bird of rarest spun heaven metal, or like silvery wine flowing in a space ship, gravity all nonsense now. As I slooshied I knew such lovely pictures."
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tttiger
12-19-2003, 12:30 PM
Not a good post at all. Where you blew your experiment was when you "played with the enemy without shooting."

The Yak-3 is considered by most historians as the best late war dogfighter in the world. I love flying it but I rarely do.

Why? Because I'm a lousy shot and I need more firepower and more ammo. The Yak-3 has weak guns with short clips. I can outfly anything in it but I have to be lucky to do enough damage to get a kill.

Compare that to the howitzer on the front of the 109K and the Messer wins hands down. I've had P-47s blow up under me from a single hit by a 109K. Can't say that for a Yak-3's guns.

Your description of how effective the Yak-3's guns are and how puny the K-4's guns are defies all my experience. I have to be very, very lucky to kill a Heinkel or a JU-88 with a Yak-3. One 20mm and two .50s just don't have enough punch. In contrast, one hit from that 30mm is enough to destroy anything.

And, you don't compare or contrast ability to sustain damage. The Yak is light, agile AND flimsy. The 109K can take considerable punishment, although it is not nearly as tough as the FW (which is all historically accurate).

Without comparing and contrasting the guns and durability, your whole post is just nonsense.

And, if you fly in DF arenas you are just playing an arcade game anyway. Come join us in the Coops and fly realistic missions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

ttt

gates123
12-19-2003, 12:31 PM
I'd have to agree with ob_swe. His observations are correct. One day you will all find out that servers that enable padlock on and cockpit off are riddled with inferior pilots who don't know how to correctly use the aircraft they choose. Good work ob_SWE.

F19_Ob
12-19-2003, 02:47 PM
Thnx for your inputs.

Perhaps I should explain my comparisons of the guns of the 109k4 and yak3.

I always try to be as accurate as possible and I flew quite many testflights with the yak3 against the K4 and then just by accident against the b17 wich is default in quickmissionbuilder and noticed that it" seemed" easier to shoot down a bomber with the yak3 than 109k4 ofcourse I too thought it was a bit silly and that 30mm canon should be much stronger but I was wrong.
I flew 20 tests with both aircraft and it was easier to shoot down bombers with the yak3 and that have to be bcause of the fastfiring mg and cannon.? I had no problem cutting a 109 's tail several times , in perhaps 15 flights with only mg's(please try this yourselves its no hoax)

Usually i think im quite good at deflectionshooting and especially with bf109 cannon but I did better with the yak guns so to me they are clearly better.


and the other things i wrote are all testable and easy and clear, nothing strange there. (please test your selves)



The ultimate test ofcourse is if there is a bf109k4 ace that would like to test with me online ,my thesis that with a K4 against a yak3 , one on one,the K4 only have 1 headon pass before he is on the defensive.......Now Im not a ace on the yak3 but I still belive i can deny any K4 pilot the second pass.( since I know the K4).

US380thBG-Tug-
12-19-2003, 03:15 PM
"I discovered that yak3 can shoot down b17's much easier than the 109K4 even if i only used the machineguns at long distance they did more damage than the 30mm cannon of the messerschmitt"

As a full time B-17 jockey, having encountered all types of enemy aircraft, pilot skill, and armament I can assure you this is incorrect. A K4 pilot possessed of even mediocre gunnery skill will manage to shred a B-17. It may be that a *fantastic* shooter in a Yak can produce similar results, but on average the K4 is a much, much more potent threat -hands down. Let's not even get into gunpods... In fact, LW aircraft in general, but the Bf-109 and FW-190 in particular, are the dominant buff killers in the sim.

"Your description of how effective the Yak-3's guns are and how puny the K-4's guns are defies all my experience"

And mine, it's simply not true...at least in as much as applies to taking down the big bombers. That said, I fully encourage any trend toward leaving LW aircraft behind for the Yak3 when going bomber hunting. Spread the word...the secret is out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Tug

http://imageshack.us/files/siggy.jpg

Gibbage1
12-19-2003, 03:35 PM
I agree. When I fly a buff, the only thing I fear is P-40/P-51 (PK's) and the FW-190/109. Yak 3's are laughable when they try to down me. They are so flimsy, they fall appart. I had 1 guy in a Yak try to kill me, and I killed him. He took off again and tried yet again, and I killed him. 3rd time still was not the charm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I finally reached his runway and bombed him on the runway. A Fw-190 took me out in 1 pass. 109's have a bit harder time since there engine is very vulnerable. But if he is good, he is a threat. If he has gunpods, he is a BIG threat.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by US380thBG-Tug-:
"I discovered that yak3 can shoot down b17's much easier than the 109K4 even if i only used the machineguns at long distance they did more damage than the 30mm cannon of the messerschmitt"

As a full time B-17 jockey, having encountered all types of enemy aircraft, pilot skill, and armament I can assure you this is incorrect. A K4 pilot possessed of even mediocre gunnery skill will manage to shred a B-17. It may be that a *fantastic* shooter in a Yak can produce similar results, but on average the K4 is a much, much more potent threat -hands down. Let's not even get into gunpods... In fact, LW aircraft in general, but the Bf-109 and FW-190 in particular, are the dominant buff killers in the sim.

"Your description of how effective the Yak-3's guns are and how puny the K-4's guns are defies all my experience"

And mine, it's simply not true...at least in as much as applies to taking down the big bombers. That said, I fully encourage any trend toward leaving LW aircraft behind for the Yak3 when going bomber hunting. Spread the word...the secret is out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Tug

http://imageshack.us/files/siggy.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VW-IceFire
12-19-2003, 03:38 PM
We do know from testing that the UBS is definately more powerful than it should be and the flatter trajectory is a mixed blessing but having flown the Yak 3, Yak 9U, the BF 109 on semi-regular occasions I know that the 109 is still on the top of the list for hitting power. I also find it much easier to kill multiple planes with a MK108 cannon than with the combo on the Yaks. With the Yaks the most you can eek out is 3-4 planes with top notch accuracy (I've done 5 offline but that was with rookie AI's). With luck, good practice, and some serious gunnery skills you could probably down 5-10 (perhaps) fighters with the Bf 109...you could simply not do that with the Yak.

Many of the other poinst are valid but even with the added advantages of the Yak's guns its very hard to believe that there is outright superiority when you have so much less ammo and less hitting power overall. I hold the B17 example up as perhaps an advantage in terms of trajectory rather than straight hitting power.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg

crazyivan1970
12-19-2003, 03:38 PM
Two things i can add...stay high, keep your energy up and pray that you wont be cought below 3k by Yak3 on equal odds, cause up to that alt K4 is not that much against Yak3, same applies to LA7. Besides, thinking that Yak3 has weak guns is a big mistake. It does require good shooting skills, but MG and cannon fire can be very deadly. You can say that K4 can outtdive, outclimb Yak3 .. but on what altitude http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

F19_Ob
12-19-2003, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by US380thBG-Tug-:
"I discovered that yak3 can shoot down b17's much easier than the 109K4 even if i only used the machineguns at long distance they did more damage than the 30mm cannon of the messerschmitt"

As a full time B-17 jockey, having encountered all types of enemy aircraft, pilot skill, and armament I can assure you this is incorrect. A K4 pilot possessed of even mediocre gunnery skill will manage to shred a B-17. It may be that a *fantastic* shooter in a Yak can produce similar results, but on average the K4 is a much, much more potent threat -hands down. Let's not even get into gunpods... In fact, LW aircraft in general, but the Bf-109 and FW-190 in particular, are the dominant buff killers in the sim.

"Your description of how effective the Yak-3's guns are and how puny the K-4's guns are defies all my experience"

And mine, it's simply not true...at least in as much as applies to taking down the big bombers. That said, I fully encourage any trend toward leaving LW aircraft behind for the Yak3 when going bomber hunting. Spread the word...the secret is out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Tug



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ok felas I guess you're pulling my leg here.



Just now a few minutes ago I again "tested" and even checked I had "hardest" setting on.

With the yak3 i first fired away my cannonshells so i only had mg's left, the bomber was rookie and after the second pass it went down( with mg's) ( twice)

U really dont belive I make this up as I go a long ,do U?


or is that trolling? well I was serious anyway

RayBanJockey
12-19-2003, 03:50 PM
Only inexperienced pilots think the Yak-3 is better than the 109K4.

It's like saying the Hurricane was the best plane in CFS1.

If you want to get better, learn how to use a faster plane that climbs better. You can start in the cockpit-off servers, where all the facts are laid out.

Too many people fly in the mysterious cockpit servers and don't have a clue about the relative performance of the planes because they never see the icons, or are fully aware. It's like a golfer who never goes to the range.

When there are no icons and your screen is 3/4 covered with a 'pit it goes without saying that you don't actually know what is possible.

You can outrun the Yak3 and outclimb it in the K4. The problem is some people don't realize that to outclimb it you don't go at the best climb speed, you go at a speed that is faster, where the Yak's climb rate drops off the most should it try to catch up.

Just simple things you learn when flying in cockpit-off servers that you'll never learn if all you do is fly full real.

TX-Zen
12-19-2003, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
Only inexperienced pilots think the Yak-3 is better than the 109K4.

It's like saying the Hurricane was the best plane in CFS1.

If you want to get better, learn how to use a faster plane that climbs better. You can start in the cockpit-off servers, where all the facts are laid out.

Too many people fly in the mysterious cockpit servers and don't have a clue about the relative performance of the planes because they never see the icons, or are fully aware. It's like a golfer who never goes to the range.

When there are no icons and your screen is 3/4 covered with a 'pit it goes without saying that you don't actually know what is possible.

You can outrun the Yak3 and outclimb it in the K4. The problem is some people don't realize that to outclimb it you don't go at the best climb speed, you go at a speed that is faster, where the Yak's climb rate drops off the most should it try to catch up.

Just simple things you learn when flying in cockpit-off servers that you'll never learn if all you do is fly full real.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In a round about way, RBJ is correct.

TX-Zen
Black 6
TX-Squadron CO
http://www.txsquadron.com
clyndes@hotmail.com (IM Only)
http://www.txsquadron.com/library/20031218144359_Zensig2.jpg

FMJ3G
12-19-2003, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
heres good site bf ticks http://mywebpages.comcast.net/fletcher183/109instructions.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ya, nice site - good info. Thanx!!

SpremeCommander
12-19-2003, 06:19 PM
Hmmm. Having the cockpit on or off doesn't really have anything to do with it. I swear, the best thing I did was graduate from the cockpit off/icons on style of playing to the "realistic" difficulty settings. Once you get used to it, the whole sim just seems so much more believable.

Sure, you're not fully aware of everything going on around you, but neither were the real pilots of WWII. Remember, 90% of downed pilots never saw their attackers, at least until it was too late.

The cockpit-off style creates more of an alternate universe, rather than a faithful attempt to simulate WWII. If I wanted that, I guess I'd go play Unreal Tournament or something like that.

F19_Ob
12-19-2003, 06:25 PM
well.....I see.... some just didnt like the info I gave, but my tests proves it at least to me and they are easy to replicate ......only thing I cant replicate is your personal deflectionshootinskill wich I ofcourse cant know anything about.


comeon..... did u really read my original post and my replies??

p1ngu666
12-19-2003, 06:32 PM
yak3 is a very good plane, i think the bullet/shell physics of the ussr guns is better, so u hit more

US380thBG-Tug-
12-19-2003, 09:24 PM
"With the yak3 i first fired away my cannonshells so i only had mg's left, the bomber was rookie and after the second pass it went down( with mg's) ( twice)"

I'm not sure what you're driving at. I don't think anyone refutes that it is *possible* to down any plane with just machine gun fire...B-17's included.

I very much liked the info you gave in your original post and found it (as I'm sure others will) very illuminating for the most part. What I disagreed with was the contention that the Yak3 downs B-17s much easier than the K4. I certainly cannot refute your test results - I'll take you at your word on it. Perhaps you are a fantastic shot with the Yak. Perhaps you're lousy with the K4. The fact remains that in the hands of the average Joe(those who presumably stand to gain the most from your post), the K4 -or perhaps more correctly the MK108- is a much, much greater threat to bombers than the armament of the Yak-3.

Please don't take my rebuttal personally. It wasn't meant as an attack or troll. Just thought a perspective given from the pointy end of the stick might add to the discussion.

-Tug

http://imageshack.us/files/siggy.jpg

SlickStick
12-19-2003, 10:21 PM
The interesting thing about the Yak3 for me is that it was the dominant plane from IL2 through FB. Until one of the FB patches and I can't remember which, the LA7 took over as best over- all turner of the late war planes.

What the LA7 can't out-turn, it can out-run and whatever it can't out-run, it can out-turn.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The K4 is way too fast in a dive for the Yak3 and the smart LW pilot flies high and uses the vertical like a yo-yo, never pausing to turn with Yak3, until it has been wing- or tail- damaged and can be easily out-maneuvered.

You don't even have to go into the stratosphere. Just get a K4 cruising along at 400-500km/h+ before the dive at @ 2500m or so and be above a Yak3 by a km or so.

You can own him for as long as you want, as long as your smart about the head-on on the way down, if you get sloppy, and you hold that zoom climb until the cows come home.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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kyrule2
12-20-2003, 12:31 AM
If bombers are attacked properly (head-on or at very steep dive angle after climbing above target), then the Mk-108 is FAR, FAR superior. When utilizing these tactics the 20mm cannon is much less effective and requires more passes (meaning more exposure to defensive fire).

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"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

Jaws2002
12-20-2003, 12:49 AM
If you check this tread you'll see how ridiculous the Russian 12.7mm is modeled.
test (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=44810566)

It has twice the range of the similar caliber machine guns in the game.you can check it. You can accurately shoot from 1.5 km, but this doesn't mean yak3 is better than the "K".
You compare speed at 200m altitude, but who is flying the 109K that low? I don't fly 109 too much, (I fly FW-190), but usually when I'm at 200m I'm well above 600km/h.
If you fly the 109 with manual pitch the thing is a MONSTER. It out climbs out dives out accelerate 99% of the planes in the game. the only advantage of the yak is the turn rate, nothing else.

RedDeth
12-20-2003, 03:15 AM
p51 has fantastic visibility in cockpit on games and will DESTROY all yak3s given equal pilots

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F19_Ob
12-20-2003, 04:11 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by US380thBG-Tug-:
"With the yak3 i first fired away my cannonshells so i only had mg's left, the bomber was rookie and after the second pass it went down( with mg's) ( twice)"

I'm not sure what you're driving at. I don't think anyone refutes that it is *possible* to down any plane with just machine gun fire...B-17's included.

I very much liked the info you gave in your original post and found it (as I'm sure others will) very illuminating for the most part. What I disagreed with was the contention that the Yak3 downs B-17s much easier than the K4. I certainly cannot refute your test results - I'll take you at your word on it. Perhaps you are a fantastic shot with the Yak. Perhaps you're lousy with the K4. The fact remains that in the hands of the average Joe(those who presumably stand to gain the most from your post), the K4 -or perhaps more correctly the MK108- is a much, much greater threat to bombers than the armament of the Yak-3.

Please don't take my rebuttal personally. It wasn't meant as an attack or troll. Just thought a perspective given from the pointy end of the stick might add to the discussion.

-Tug
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Thnx for explaining your view.......I have no problem being "disagreed" with, nor the type that needs to be right all the time.

I just thought "You" thought I was kidding you and therefore kidding me.............= that some of u were trolling the post useless so again thnx for explaining.



Ok......The plane I feel most familiar with is the 109, mostly the later variants, and I have practiced my deflectionshooting for quite some time, especially long distance shots, so on a good day it should be ace standard.( or close to it)( perhaps I should say GreaterGreen standard = U have to be quite good to score hits in the 109 at all on later maps)



As I said earlier ,I discovered by mistake that the yak3 made at least same damage as k4 , if not more. Also pilot kills were more frequent with the yak..so last night after these posts i thought (again) maybe Im wrong and tested against a single B-17 ,14 or 15 times
this time with both canon and mg's and the result was 5 of the b17 was downed on first pass headon 3 escaped damaged and the rest were taken on the second or third pass....on 3 occasions i ran out of ammo but soon after the fortresses went down.
what I wanted to say with this small part of my post is that I didnt know it was better than my favorite the" K4 "on both long and short distance. ( this was news to me)


the only "trick" I used was that I could start firing from almost the double the distance compared to K4 since the yak has flat trajectory I zoomed the view in and just aimed a bit above the b17 and "voila" = lots of tiny flashes on the fuselage, and then fired normally on normal range.......so add twice the time to fire and the fast firing on this veapon and .........there it is.



So the 30mm surely makes alot of noise and smoke and flashes and shaking and truly can blow the wing or tail clean off on a fighter......but so can the yak3 and without the shaking ..and so on.


Perhaps there is a difference in damage between the two, although the damage "looks" similar? All i know is that the bomber has more holes after the yak3 pass and its equally easy to shoot off elvators,rudder and tailplane
as in K4 ( my opinion),perhaps this is because of the k4's inadequate mg's??


Or Is russian mg's that good in all planes bcause of its faster firing= more bullets??



thnx for your efforts reading this farhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

F19_Ob
12-20-2003, 04:29 AM
thnx for the gun test. Ill look into it.

F19_Ob
12-20-2003, 05:52 AM
I give some more tips on the GreaterGreen forum.

Feel fre to visit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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F19_Ob
12-20-2003, 01:48 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

LEXX_Luthor
12-20-2003, 01:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"4" Muzzleflashes are big on 109's but small on yak3 and the cannonflash is tiny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bigger gun, bigger flash. This is embarassing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>109 k4 bullets have "Arching trajectory" compared to yak3 "flat trajectory"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not sure here, but I heard those K4 30mm "bullets" were very slow.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>some just didnt like the info I gave, but my tests proves...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nothing as you failed to be more specific in your information, and you refused to post altitude data except for sea level. Worse, you pretend that you don't know how to climb with K4, as you advertise yourself as K4 "simmer."

The first observation is that you run out of ammo in Yak~3. This observation was either (1) left out, or (2) there was no testing by the K4 "simmer." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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VMF513_Wolf
12-20-2003, 04:28 PM
u'r wrong..yak3 is 2nd best plane....p39q_10 is 1sthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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F19_Ob
12-20-2003, 04:42 PM
Thanks for your input lexxx

ok U didnt like the post , (fine)
but even if the test wasnt as scientific as u mean it should be, still the few figures I have and comparisons made for a few hours surely isnt too fussy and in my mind easy to replicate.
I chose the lowest altitude of 200m
bcause thats where the furballs often end up on GreaterGreen.

My eyesight isnt the best anymore but have u really visually compared the yaks flashes with 109s with 20mm canon and then the machine guns( its not such a big deal to me, but I just pointed out a difference thats all)

And the flat trajectory can easily be checked and wich to me seems accurate.

And if U plz correct my last qoute, especially the part " my tests proves....( to me )" wich gives the sentence a quite different meaning.

the use of your words,failed,refused,pretend in same sentence kindof hurts,..yep even a really scarred vet like me....


Im sad that u feel " this" way.
I really like discussing things to improve a thought or an idea, wich not nescessarily have to be my own.

PF_Coastie
12-20-2003, 04:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ob_swe:
Thnx for your inputs.

The ultimate test ofcourse is if there is a bf109k4 ace that would like to test with me online ,my thesis that with a K4 against a yak3 , one on one,the K4 only have 1 headon pass before he is on the defensive.......Now Im not a ace on the yak3 but I still belive i can deny any K4 pilot the second pass.( since I know the K4).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Look up a 109K4 jock on HL by the name of Invictus and prepare to get your butt waxed with any plane you want to try against him, including the K4.

PF_Coastie

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Jaws2002
12-20-2003, 05:22 PM
ob_swe you are perfectly right about the accuracy of Yak's 3 guns, but if you check the tests done by JtD you'll see that those guns are WAYYYYY overdone. the bullets of the UBK and UBS heavy MG's are actually faster after 300m then when they leave the barrel, and they have twice the range of all other heavy caliber MGs.

LEXX_Luthor
12-20-2003, 05:25 PM
obswe, actually, the blinding flash lighting up the entire inside the Fb109 and Fw190 cockpits when you pull the trigger is horrible. We can agree on that. Why those two LW aircraft? Why?

Not sure about the USA aircraft.

obswe::
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I chose the lowest altitude of 200m
bcause thats where the furballs often end up on GreaterGreen.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, you forgot to add that to your information. Try high altitude and compare it to low. Then find a better server that does not BAN high altitude flying with K4. In fact, they say the best LW servers BAN Yaks from getting below 4km altitude. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


__________________
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Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.

F19_Ob
12-21-2003, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ob_swe:
Thnx for your inputs.

The ultimate test ofcourse is if there is a bf109k4 ace that would like to test with me online ,my thesis that with a K4 against a yak3 , one on one,the K4 only have 1 headon pass before he is on the defensive.......Now Im not a ace on the yak3 but I still belive i can deny any K4 pilot the second pass.( since I know the K4).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Look up a 109K4 jock on HL by the name of Invictus and prepare to get your butt waxed with any plane you want to try against him, including the K4.

PF_Coastie

.................................................. ............................................


Thanx for the tip coastie....

well there are super k4 flyers frequenting GreaterGreen too and thats the server and settings i fly most.

I already have a candidate for this test that suggested that we do it privatly on his server.
and that we switched planes after "halftime" since I earlier said that even an "just above average" pilot will give the K4 a hard fight.
He was most interrested to test this and I agreed



But if your "friend" really is interested and has got the time, ill try to make time too. im there almost every other or third night(swedish time).....ofcourse there is some preparation needed, bcause we would have to try at least 10 times perhaps a few more and I must also check with the host if he agrees to this test on his server.

Now bear in mind its just a test of planes performance not individual pilotskill( in that case we would fly the same ac)
this could be interesting bcause as I pointed out ,im not an expert yak3 driver, and if im able to deny the K4 the second pass it shows how much the planes perfomance means in a battle, ofcourse at the same time not a morale boost for us messerschmitt lovers.

As I wrote in my post "200 m" wich is where battles mostly end up on greater green, but Due to my experience they generally start between 1000-500m so I think its apropriate that the test should take place at this hight instead of 200m.



I will repost another post, from anothe forum with more suggestions on how to increase the chances for survival in the K4 against yak3 and La7 at low altitude.


thnx for your interrest in this matter http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jaws2002
12-21-2003, 08:59 AM
If you start from the field when you meet the 109 will have 2k advantage and Z&B you at will http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

PF_Coastie
12-21-2003, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaws2002:
If you start from the field when you meet the 109 will have 2k advantage and Z&B you at will http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is absolutely true. You have no chance against K4 in ANY plane if starting from airfields more than 20K apart.

The K4 will have Alt advantage going into the merge.

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)
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Lunix
12-21-2003, 01:01 PM
1. Rotate untill the Yak is above the crosshairs.
2. Pull stick to center
3. SHOOT!

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