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View Full Version : What seems promising/distressing for R6: Vegas



bdr41
03-21-2006, 02:11 PM
At this point with Rainbow Six: Vegas, all we have are a handful of screenshots and some sketchy information about the game to go by. While it€s admittedly far too early to say what features are €˜good€ or €˜bad,€ we do have enough information at our disposal to begin to say what seems promising and what is a little distressing.

Promising:

-- A.I. -- I€m very glad to see that the A.I. is a major focus of the design team, and that they even have someone in charge of the A.I. design in addition to a ton of programmers.

-- Graphics -- I have no idea how similar the final graphics will be to what we€ve been shown, but the screens they€ve teased us with look great. It€s also nice to see the Rainbow operators appear to mean business -- relatively appropriately geared including assault helmets (and no visible cornrows) -- although the South Korean operator€s backpack radio is questionable.

-- The development team€s recognition of Lockdown€s shortcomings.

-- Importance of realism -- the developers have mentioned numerous times how important a sense of realism is, and that they know what the hardcore R6 gamers want and why they want it. They also stated a desire to €˜return to the core values of the series.€

-- Addition of Aaron Gilman and individual motion captor actor for each operator -- This could be a big step forward in giving the game a realistic look and feel -- as long as they don€t get carried away (see more on this in the €˜Distressing€ section).

-- Less tangos, more difficult kills -- Better enemy A.I. and opponents actually communicating and working together.

-- No loading or cut scenes -- I know this scares some people, but it could be good. I like the GRAW-style way of showing insertions and the seamless gameplay.

Distressing:

-- More accessible -- The first thing the developers say in the EGM story is a desire to make the game more accessible. I can understand the desire to make the series more attractive to a broader audience, but if not done just right, they risk alienating all of the fans that are already on board. Lockdown taught this lesson in a harsh manner. The developers recognize that pleasing both groups (new and hardcore fans) is a difficult thing to accomplish, but just knowing this doesn€t mean they€ll actually be able to pull it off.

Tied to this: €˜Less Dying€ and €˜Halo-style€ heath -- We still need more information before we make final judgments, but these ideas could be the type that scare away the existing audience. One of the things that makes R6 special is the feeling of danger and the unforgiving nature of the gameplay. You screw up or just get unlucky, you die. That€s not a weakness of the title, it€s a strength.

-- Cinematic emphasis -- There has been a lot of talk in delivering a cinematic experience with R6: Vegas. Doesn€t necessarily sound like a bad thing on the surface, but as we€ve all seen in the past, this often results in titles that are extremely linear in nature and lack replay value. It doesn€t have to be this way -- for example, even though they need to make sure you see something to move along the story, limit that to key areas that you absolutely have to hit to meet your objectives. Outside of that, give us lot of freedom in deciding how to approach and take down those key areas.

-- Just one three-man team and no planning stage -- Not a surprise, but I was holding my breath that the developers would grow the console version up to meet the needs of an emerging audience of maturing (PC-style) console gamers while taking full advantage of the power of the next-gen machines.

-- Over emphasis on members€ €˜individuality.€ As mentioned above in the €˜Promising€ section, the plan to use individual actors for the motion capture of each operator could turn out fantastic. The key, however, would be in not making a big deal out of their differences while doing it. All of the actors should try to carry out the same motions -- their individuality will still shine through, just on a much more subtle level. This is something that shouldn€t really be obvious -- the game should just feel more realistic as a result even if you can€t put your finger on it. When you have just one motion-capture actor, the immersion is lessened because it feels unnatural. This is especially true in sports games where, for example, every football player has the same gait, from the 350lb DT to the 180lb WR. However, in real life a sports fan can immediately tell the difference in running styles between two 210lb RBs, let alone athletes with dramatically different builds. This unnaturalness is heightened in sports games when the players€ steps seem to sync up.

However, the developers€ comments make me fear that they are focusing too much on making the operators look different from one another. This could be just as jarring, as they may be required to use over-the-top movements to make their differences obvious. Again, I think this advancement would be better served being delivered on a more subconscious level.

And I haven€t even mentioned their personalities, and this is where emphasizing individuality could really lead to clichéd, over-the-top characters.

Gilman (wit his Hollywood background) seems to want to push things dangerously far. Hopefully Béland is able to simultaneously leverage his talents while still keeping him in check.

-- Lack of control over our teammates€ kit -- I€m not sure if this is actually the case, but all of the screenshots show the British operator with the same gun and the recent 1up preview even mentions his €˜weapon of choice.€ I want to decide what his weapon of choice is myself (along with the rest of his kit).

-- Limited co-op -- Just four players in online co-op. I was hoping for more so that we could create our own multiple team assaults that don€t seem to be a part of the plan for the single-player experience.

Still entirely unknown:

-- Nature of the maps and our resultant tactics/strategies -- linear vs. nonlinear. This is huge in my opinion. I desperately don€t want to be dragged down one pre-established path, moving from one hallway to the next.

-- Storyline realism -- This is important too IMHO. For example, if the storyline focuses around some major terrorist attack on Vegas and the story says that your team has been sent in all alone to save the day, well that€s really lame. It should be evident that you€re just part of a larger operation and that other Rainbow teams are doing their part as well (and maybe even FBI HRT and Vegas SWAT members as well). This could be accomplished on a number of levels, from just simple mentions of what other operations are going on in chatter from HQ to establish the ambiance, to actually seeing other teams insert nearby you, all the way to actually interacting/teaming up with A.I.-controlled Rainbow assault teams and snipers on occasion.

The only way a three-man team assault (with no other active teams) could feel real at all is if it is a minor incident that the public doesn€t even know about. Something like hitting some small terrorist cells in preemptive assaults before they get a chance to carry out their terrorist plots.

bdr41
03-21-2006, 02:11 PM
At this point with Rainbow Six: Vegas, all we have are a handful of screenshots and some sketchy information about the game to go by. While it€s admittedly far too early to say what features are €˜good€ or €˜bad,€ we do have enough information at our disposal to begin to say what seems promising and what is a little distressing.

Promising:

-- A.I. -- I€m very glad to see that the A.I. is a major focus of the design team, and that they even have someone in charge of the A.I. design in addition to a ton of programmers.

-- Graphics -- I have no idea how similar the final graphics will be to what we€ve been shown, but the screens they€ve teased us with look great. It€s also nice to see the Rainbow operators appear to mean business -- relatively appropriately geared including assault helmets (and no visible cornrows) -- although the South Korean operator€s backpack radio is questionable.

-- The development team€s recognition of Lockdown€s shortcomings.

-- Importance of realism -- the developers have mentioned numerous times how important a sense of realism is, and that they know what the hardcore R6 gamers want and why they want it. They also stated a desire to €˜return to the core values of the series.€

-- Addition of Aaron Gilman and individual motion captor actor for each operator -- This could be a big step forward in giving the game a realistic look and feel -- as long as they don€t get carried away (see more on this in the €˜Distressing€ section).

-- Less tangos, more difficult kills -- Better enemy A.I. and opponents actually communicating and working together.

-- No loading or cut scenes -- I know this scares some people, but it could be good. I like the GRAW-style way of showing insertions and the seamless gameplay.

Distressing:

-- More accessible -- The first thing the developers say in the EGM story is a desire to make the game more accessible. I can understand the desire to make the series more attractive to a broader audience, but if not done just right, they risk alienating all of the fans that are already on board. Lockdown taught this lesson in a harsh manner. The developers recognize that pleasing both groups (new and hardcore fans) is a difficult thing to accomplish, but just knowing this doesn€t mean they€ll actually be able to pull it off.

Tied to this: €˜Less Dying€ and €˜Halo-style€ heath -- We still need more information before we make final judgments, but these ideas could be the type that scare away the existing audience. One of the things that makes R6 special is the feeling of danger and the unforgiving nature of the gameplay. You screw up or just get unlucky, you die. That€s not a weakness of the title, it€s a strength.

-- Cinematic emphasis -- There has been a lot of talk in delivering a cinematic experience with R6: Vegas. Doesn€t necessarily sound like a bad thing on the surface, but as we€ve all seen in the past, this often results in titles that are extremely linear in nature and lack replay value. It doesn€t have to be this way -- for example, even though they need to make sure you see something to move along the story, limit that to key areas that you absolutely have to hit to meet your objectives. Outside of that, give us lot of freedom in deciding how to approach and take down those key areas.

-- Just one three-man team and no planning stage -- Not a surprise, but I was holding my breath that the developers would grow the console version up to meet the needs of an emerging audience of maturing (PC-style) console gamers while taking full advantage of the power of the next-gen machines.

-- Over emphasis on members€ €˜individuality.€ As mentioned above in the €˜Promising€ section, the plan to use individual actors for the motion capture of each operator could turn out fantastic. The key, however, would be in not making a big deal out of their differences while doing it. All of the actors should try to carry out the same motions -- their individuality will still shine through, just on a much more subtle level. This is something that shouldn€t really be obvious -- the game should just feel more realistic as a result even if you can€t put your finger on it. When you have just one motion-capture actor, the immersion is lessened because it feels unnatural. This is especially true in sports games where, for example, every football player has the same gait, from the 350lb DT to the 180lb WR. However, in real life a sports fan can immediately tell the difference in running styles between two 210lb RBs, let alone athletes with dramatically different builds. This unnaturalness is heightened in sports games when the players€ steps seem to sync up.

However, the developers€ comments make me fear that they are focusing too much on making the operators look different from one another. This could be just as jarring, as they may be required to use over-the-top movements to make their differences obvious. Again, I think this advancement would be better served being delivered on a more subconscious level.

And I haven€t even mentioned their personalities, and this is where emphasizing individuality could really lead to clichéd, over-the-top characters.

Gilman (wit his Hollywood background) seems to want to push things dangerously far. Hopefully Béland is able to simultaneously leverage his talents while still keeping him in check.

-- Lack of control over our teammates€ kit -- I€m not sure if this is actually the case, but all of the screenshots show the British operator with the same gun and the recent 1up preview even mentions his €˜weapon of choice.€ I want to decide what his weapon of choice is myself (along with the rest of his kit).

-- Limited co-op -- Just four players in online co-op. I was hoping for more so that we could create our own multiple team assaults that don€t seem to be a part of the plan for the single-player experience.

Still entirely unknown:

-- Nature of the maps and our resultant tactics/strategies -- linear vs. nonlinear. This is huge in my opinion. I desperately don€t want to be dragged down one pre-established path, moving from one hallway to the next.

-- Storyline realism -- This is important too IMHO. For example, if the storyline focuses around some major terrorist attack on Vegas and the story says that your team has been sent in all alone to save the day, well that€s really lame. It should be evident that you€re just part of a larger operation and that other Rainbow teams are doing their part as well (and maybe even FBI HRT and Vegas SWAT members as well). This could be accomplished on a number of levels, from just simple mentions of what other operations are going on in chatter from HQ to establish the ambiance, to actually seeing other teams insert nearby you, all the way to actually interacting/teaming up with A.I.-controlled Rainbow assault teams and snipers on occasion.

The only way a three-man team assault (with no other active teams) could feel real at all is if it is a minor incident that the public doesn€t even know about. Something like hitting some small terrorist cells in preemptive assaults before they get a chance to carry out their terrorist plots.

kimi_
03-21-2006, 02:31 PM
Wow this is great, well thought out and written feedback. I can see your point of view and agree that while certain points are promising, if it's taken too far it can be negative. That's what I was talking about with the fine line that is walked. Keep 'em coming!

RoM_Mafia
03-21-2006, 06:40 PM
Great Post http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif


Ps: P.E.C will be the death of VEGAS http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/bigtears.gif

nastyman2k6
03-22-2006, 06:29 AM
yeah the article said we want to stop so much dying, you will have to use a lot of ammo to take someone down. that right there is a redflag,im already planning on not buying this

councilor_bbco
03-22-2006, 04:20 PM
Firstly, why can't all posts be like this? oppinions & thoughts that aren't forced down peoples throats, a mix of possitive & negative. Well done!

Here's my thoughts on what I've read online so far:

Positve:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Still entirely unknown:

-- Nature of the maps and our resultant tactics/strategies -- linear vs. nonlinear. This is huge in my opinion. I desperately don€t want to be dragged down one pre-established path, moving from one hallway to the next. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

- this is from IGN.com:

"With the current, very-early build that we've only talked about with Ubi, you'll be able to storm through the front door with guns blazing; you'll be able to rappel down the building and bust through the window guns blazing; you'll be able to find another more quiet entrance and go in guns blazing. The point is that you'll have many choices in how you want to eliminate the terrorists, all depending on your style of play.
"

&lt;&lt; coment &gt;&gt; I like the sound of this! It's always been my biggest bug-bear about the console series - the limited route when you should be able to execute the mission however you plan it.

- Weapon Customisations: this i like too! It's tiring & boring being limited to a small handfull of silenced weapons, when all you want to do (in the name of fun http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif) is use a decent AR but not make enough noise to alert tangos two-towns-over! A choice of scopes would be nice to as I'm not too keen on anything over x2 for CQB work.

- The return of the R6 & R6:BA team...this i feel will be a "good thing".

- Even though I'll probably be flamed for this, I like the idea of the whole looking round corners 3rd person stylee. I'm not taking the PDZ referrence seriously, as we're all guilty of using something else (that probably isn't 100% accurate) as a comparrison just to get an idea or point accross, so the way I'm thinking of this is more akin to GRAW when you're in 3rd person there. And I like that.

- A.I. & Less enemies: maybe a thing learned from Ghost Recon Poo (2) - loads of enemies does not a good game make! One of the most comical things in the R6 games was accidentally making a noise and the Tangos saying "What was that?!" before looking around & walking away from your possition! And I esspecially love the way that you'd **** someone in the face from a distance only to watch his buddy, who's standing RIGHT NEXT TO HIM! look to where his mate once was before resuming his "vigilant posing" - classic! Hopefully we'll see the end of this!? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Negative:

- The health thing: if this is true, this is a "bad thing", unless of course it was some kind of option for new players that can be disabled?


Unknown:

- Maps: I hope they're BIG in a complex scale, and modelled on real locations.

- Cinematic Emphasis: not too sure about this, I'll reserve my judgment until I know more.

- PEC: I liked the idea, but I'd like some kind of "character" creation for online play that can be used for both co-op/buddy games AND adversarial matches.

- Upgradability: Live! Marketplace is getting better, and I'd like to see UBI support its titles fully (GRAW as well): and not just cater to the PvP crowd, gamers like co-op too!!!!!
&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; &lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

So there you go, thems is my thoughts...

I know the forums are going to be full of: "It doesn't have *INSERT THING OF CHOICE*, so I'm NOT going to buy it!" - before any REAL facts have been released, but lets hope more posts like this one take hold of the forums & encourage PROPER discussion. Again: Good Post!

Ciao!

mortified_dodo
03-26-2006, 02:13 PM
I really beleive that the maps will be more wide open and not a corridor crawl. The level of openness in GRAW was perfect, where you were given a grid of city streets, with alot of choice as far as your route, and what enemies you would encounter at what times. I really hope that R6:Vegas goes with the same idea, presenting you with a building to infiltrate as sort of a blank canvas, allowing you to go anywhere. If the GRAW developers can give you a city-scape that you are free to roam around in with no loading screens, then the Vegas developers should be able to use the 360 to render an entire building with no limitations as to what route you take to your objective (every room, every door in the whole building is accessible). If they do this, Vegas will be an incredible game.

Real720
03-26-2006, 02:36 PM
Excellent post....... Keep it up! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

del130528032037
03-28-2006, 08:23 AM
What I think is promising for Rainbow is the soul fact of the console change into the xbox 360. Surly that would be enough for Ubi to want to make a big splash on xbox 360.

What I think is distressing is Ubi is forced to listen to some people that talk about Vegas, and the way they want it, and these people don't know the first thing about Rainbow Six.

If anyone has honor for the old Rainbow Six that is where your heart is. Though there should be advances, it should still look familiar, and remind you of home.