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trampasphoenix
12-30-2018, 12:21 AM
Let's be honest here he is too strong. He got fast heavies above average dmg and hyperarmor on some of them. He is not hitteble when dodge is activated even goes through zones. and if he leap attacks he just goes through minions other heroes or even wals if they are blocking the way,making him never mis it because of range or distance. als he has easy to acces unblockebles. a hidden stance that can be spammed making hidden stance of nobushi ridiculous stupid in stamina comperrence.

Vakris_One
12-30-2018, 01:15 AM
Jiang Jun does need toning down in terms of his feats and his damage slightly but he also needs to be compensated for this because he is quite weak in 1v1. For example his soft feint into kick mixup needs to be made so that it is not dodgeable on just the timing of his dash forward heavy because that's just pathetic for an opener.

From what I read you basically just want everything about him nerfed even though most of your observations about JJ are objectively incorrect.

Speed of heavies:
His basic heavy is 900 miliseconds - the same speed as Warden's top heavy from neutral. His unblockable heavies are 1000ms. That's not at all considered fast by anyone's standards.

Dodge attack i-frames:
Everyone with a dodge attack gets i-frames during the dodge portion but not during the actual attack animation therefore they can be hit out of their attack if it is timed correctly. JJ is no exception to this rule.

Never misses an unblockable:
Yeah, no. If there is a wall in the vicinity then JJ will more than likely hit the wall instead of the opponent because of the wide sweeping arc of his attacks. If you are suggesting that he magically phases through walls then you're going to have to provide video evidence to back up this claim.

Sifu Poise and Hidden Stance:
Sifu poise has much less viability as a defensive tool than hidden stance. Nobushi can use hidden stance to punish bashes whereas JJ cannot. Hidden stance allows you to counter-GB whereas JJ cannot counter GB while in Sifu poise and it's basically a free GB to the opponent. Furthermore, Nobushi can use her kick, light or heavy attack from Hidden Stance for a variety of punish options whereas JJ can only expect to do a stamina intensive zone from Sifu poise as a way to keep the opponent from getting a free GB on him.

Sifu poise is primarily meant to help JJ restore stamina as he uses a huge amount of it. It is not at all superior to Hidden Stance as an option select tool. They are two different tools for two different jobs.

JJs feats are the most overtuned thing about him and that's what needs to be nerfed. His damage can be nerfed slightly but only if he gets a better opener as compensation in my opinion.

Siegfried-Z
12-30-2018, 04:27 PM
Jiang Jun does need toning down in terms of his feats and his damage slightly but he also needs to be compensated for this because he is quite weak in 1v1. For example his soft feint into kick mixup needs to be made so that it is not dodgeable on just the timing of his dash forward heavy because that's just pathetic for an opener.

From what I read you basically just want everything about him nerfed even though most of your observations about JJ are objectively incorrect.

Speed of heavies:
His basic heavy is 900 miliseconds - the same speed as Warden's top heavy from neutral. His unblockable heavies are 1000ms. That's not at all considered fast by anyone's standards.

Dodge attack i-frames:
Everyone with a dodge attack gets i-frames during the dodge portion but not during the actual attack animation therefore they can be hit out of their attack if it is timed correctly. JJ is no exception to this rule.

Never misses an unblockable:
Yeah, no. If there is a wall in the vicinity then JJ will more than likely hit the wall instead of the opponent because of the wide sweeping arc of his attacks. If you are suggesting that he magically phases through walls then you're going to have to provide video evidence to back up this claim.

Sifu Poise and Hidden Stance:
Sifu poise has much less viability as a defensive tool than hidden stance. Nobushi can use hidden stance to punish bashes whereas JJ cannot. Hidden stance allows you to counter-GB whereas JJ cannot counter GB while in Sifu poise and it's basically a free GB to the opponent. Furthermore, Nobushi can use her kick, light or heavy attack from Hidden Stance for a variety of punish options whereas JJ can only expect to do a stamina intensive zone from Sifu poise as a way to keep the opponent from getting a free GB on him.

Sifu poise is primarily meant to help JJ restore stamina as he uses a huge amount of it. It is not at all superior to Hidden Stance as an option select tool. They are two different tools for two different jobs.

JJs feats are the most overtuned thing about him and that's what needs to be nerfed. His damage can be nerfed slightly but only if he gets a better opener as compensation in my opinion.

I agree Vakris but keep in mind he is a 4v4 very oriented char. He has been designed To be a 4v4 top dog such as Kensei.

Dont get me wrong, i agree his feats and his dmg have To be nerfed.

But i say that because i don't think he should get anything To help him in 1v1. Overwise he would be one of the best pick if not the best in both 1v1 and 4v4. He is currently the best 4v4 pick.
At least, Conq is the 1v1 king but at best average in 4v4 .

So, yes his kick mix up is possible To avoid with the proper timing.
But still, one or two mistakes against a JJ and you're dead .
He can chain with UB mix up after a light, a dodge attack, a heavy, his 400ms softfeint, his zone.. after anything.

JJ isnt the char which lack the most an opener.
And with all his others weapons, gonna stay at more than 50% win rate even in duel for sure even with a dmg nerf.

My nerf proposal on his dmg would be the following :

Lights chain from 18-20 to 16-16 : because 38dmg for 2 lights is unfair

Dodge attack from 25 To 20 : considering all his options on this moove, hardfeints for whatever he want, 400ms sf, considered as a heavy etc.. 20 is already pretty good

Zone from 28 To 22 : 28 in a single hit of zone, only raider is better on that. But Raider is the zone spécialist.

First heavy from 37 To 33 : with HA on neutral, 33 is enough

UB heavy from 40 To 37 : considering how fast his UB are and can come in any direction after anything in.his kit, 37 is really enough.

And even after this nerf, his dmg would be above others heavies still for most mooves ^^

Herbstlicht
12-30-2018, 04:34 PM
I like your proposed nerfs Siegfried. And because deeming 4on4 as my main balance concern, though I enjoy playing him, this nerf would be justified. However, feats should not be forgotton, even priorized, same with his weird animations. But anyway, his moveset his fine and numbers can always be tuned. If a nerf is too hard, just do some readjustment later on.

Vakris_One
12-30-2018, 06:46 PM
I agree Vakris but keep in mind he is a 4v4 very oriented char. He has been designed To be a 4v4 top dog such as Kensei.

Dont get me wrong, i agree his feats and his dmg have To be nerfed.

But i say that because i don't think he should get anything To help him in 1v1. Overwise he would be one of the best pick if not the best in both 1v1 and 4v4. He is currently the best 4v4 pick.
At least, Conq is the 1v1 king but at best average in 4v4 .

So, yes his kick mix up is possible To avoid with the proper timing.
But still, one or two mistakes against a JJ and you're dead .
He can chain with UB mix up after a light, a dodge attack, a heavy, his 400ms softfeint, his zone.. after anything.

JJ isnt the char which lack the most an opener.
And with all his others weapons, gonna stay at more than 50% win rate even in duel for sure even with a dmg nerf.

My nerf proposal on his dmg would be the following :

Lights chain from 18-20 to 16-16 : because 38dmg for 2 lights is unfair

Dodge attack from 25 To 20 : considering all his options on this moove, hardfeints for whatever he want, 400ms sf, considered as a heavy etc.. 20 is already pretty good

Zone from 28 To 22 : 28 in a single hit of zone, only raider is better on that. But Raider is the zone spécialist.

First heavy from 37 To 33 : with HA on neutral, 33 is enough

UB heavy from 40 To 37 : considering how fast his UB are and can come in any direction after anything in.his kit, 37 is really enough.

And even after this nerf, his dmg would be above others heavies still for most mooves ^^
Those are some good damage tweaks. Personally I would leave the UB at 40 though. Considering that characters like Warden and Highlander exist; who can both get a heavy worth 40 damage guarranteed from a bash or to use freely in a gank, I'd say JJ is fine with 40 damage from a non-guarranteed UB hit.

I disagree with the logic that we should completely ignore his 1v1 shortcomings though just because he was designed to be good in 4v4 - a big portion of that is due to his over tuned feats more so than his potential damage output. Because by that logic we're suddenly okay with leaving Lawbringer and Raider as being atrocious in 1v1 simply because they happen to be among the strongest heroes in 4v4s. And by that same logic we're also okay with leaving Warlord as he is because he can abuse his running charge in 1v1 and 4v4 all the same so he's perfect, right? Same goes for Nobushi, let's just abandon her needs for 1v1s because she's already a strong and reliable choice in 4v4s. We've already seen where that path leads us. It leads us to heroes who are mind numbingly boring to play as or against even though they are very strong in team modes.

I just fundamentally disagree with the thinking that if a hero is strong in one mode then it's safe to ignore their flaws in another mode. Let's take Kensei for example, one of the strongest heroes in 4v4s but also quite decent in 1v1s as well. Living proof that the developers could make a hero that is viable in all modes of play, once upon a blue moon. So why can't we expect them to accomplish this for other heroes as well?

And to be frank, making JJ's kick soft feint actually viable in a 1v1 is not exactly asking for a lot nor will it make him OP, especially after damage tweaks. Once you nerf JJ's damage far enough to the point where you can make a couple of mistakes against him and still be in the fight you will discover that not having a reliable opener that forces a reaction becomes a very real problem at higher levels where people aren't falling for UB feints and know how to properly react to the side dash light attack soft feint.

UbiInsulin
12-30-2018, 08:02 PM
Last time the team commented on his performance, he was indeed doing very well statistically. I'm sure he's being monitored closely, and I'll pass these suggestions up the chain.

Siegfried-Z
12-30-2018, 08:13 PM
Those are some good damage tweaks. Personally I would leave the UB at 40 though. Considering that characters like Warden and Highlander exist; who can both get a heavy worth 40 damage guarranteed from a bash or to use freely in a gank, I'd say JJ is fine with 40 damage from a non-guarranteed UB hit.

I disagree with the logic that we should completely ignore his 1v1 shortcomings though just because he was designed to be good in 4v4 - a big portion of that is due to his over tuned feats more so than his potential damage output. Because by that logic we're suddenly okay with leaving Lawbringer and Raider as being atrocious in 1v1 simply because they happen to be among the strongest heroes in 4v4s. And by that same logic we're also okay with leaving Warlord as he is because he can abuse his running charge in 1v1 and 4v4 all the same so he's perfect, right? Same goes for Nobushi, let's just abandon her needs for 1v1s because she's already a strong and reliable choice in 4v4s. We've already seen where that path leads us. It leads us to heroes who are mind numbingly boring to play as or against even though they are very strong in team modes.

I just fundamentally disagree with the thinking that if a hero is strong in one mode then it's safe to ignore their flaws in another mode. Let's take Kensei for example, one of the strongest heroes in 4v4s but also quite decent in 1v1s as well. Living proof that the developers could make a hero that is viable in all modes of play, once upon a blue moon. So why can't we expect them to accomplish this for other heroes as well?

And to be frank, making JJ's kick soft feint actually viable in a 1v1 is not exactly asking for a lot nor will it make him OP, especially after damage tweaks. Once you nerf JJ's damage far enough to the point where you can make a couple of mistakes against him and still be in the fight you will discover that not having a reliable opener that forces a reaction becomes a very real problem at higher levels where people aren't falling for UB feints and know how to properly react to the side dash light attack soft feint.

Of course being one of the best in one mode shouldnt result in being trash in the other.
I agree.

As you know even if i have stopped him, i've spend 30reps with Kensei.
You took him as an example and i perfectly agree he is one of the best rework so far and that's why i've always defend him against his big amount of haters.

But in my opinion JJ is already in the same kind of spot.
Even stronger in 4v4 where he even outshine Kensei. And at least as strong in 1v1.

What i mean is JJ is not trash in 1v1, not really strong, but not trash, he is decent.
You cant put him on the same state than LB, WL or Raider, those strongly lack many things.

What does JJ lack ?
He has pretty much everything except a Perfect opener. Because hes got one, he is just not really working in 1v1.
But, of course why not improving his kick if dmg are nerfed. It looks fair.

I am just afraid To see him becoming more spammy as he is already now if his kick become too strong. Have too see how it goes if it happen one day.

But if some soon changes have To be made, the most urgent is to fix his dmg. Currently he is devastating in 4v4 with his dmg, speed, range, aoe property, feats and stam regen 😲

Siegfried-Z
12-30-2018, 08:23 PM
I like your proposed nerfs Siegfried. And because deeming 4on4 as my main balance concern, though I enjoy playing him, this nerf would be justified. However, feats should not be forgotton, even priorized, same with his weird animations. But anyway, his moveset his fine and numbers can always be tuned. If a nerf is too hard, just do some readjustment later on.
Thanks man .
Of course his feats should be tune down too.
About the synch of his hit it is fixed now. I can see i van block his light as others char and parry it sometimes , uff ^^

His mooveset itself is ok (while i don't understand why a heavy got the strongest side dodge attack or the game).

Just the numbers have To be decreased.


Last time the team commented on his performance, he was indeed doing very well statistically. I'm sure he's being monitored closely, and I'll pass these suggestions up the chain.

I think "doing very well" is not the appropriate word if i may ^^
He was far above the entire roster.
And i hope they have plans to turn down his dmg. For the health of the game it is needed.
His kit is ok, but his dmg arent at all :)

UbiInsulin
12-30-2018, 08:33 PM
Thanks man .
Of course his feats should be tune down too.
About the synch of his hit it is fixed now. I can see i van block his light as others char and parry it sometimes , uff ^^

His mooveset itself is ok (while i don't understand why a heavy got the strongest side dodge attack or the game).

Just the numbers have To be decreased.



I think "doing very well" is not the appropriate word if i may ^^
He was far above the entire roster.
And i hope they have plans to turn down his dmg. For the health of the game it is needed.
His kit is ok, but his dmg arent at all :)

Haha, it might have been understated but it's definitely true. We'll have a lot more data (from more experienced vs. JJ players) to look at now, though.

JJ having too much damage is a pretty common take among players, and we've let the team know that people are saying so.

OhHowSheGoingEh
12-30-2018, 09:46 PM
Jiang Jun does need toning down in terms of his feats and his damage slightly but he also needs to be compensated for this because he is quite weak in 1v1. For example his soft feint into kick mixup needs to be made so that it is not dodgeable on just the timing of his dash forward heavy because that's just pathetic for an opener.

From what I read you basically just want everything about him nerfed even though most of your observations about JJ are objectively incorrect.

Speed of heavies:
His basic heavy is 900 miliseconds - the same speed as Warden's top heavy from neutral. His unblockable heavies are 1000ms. That's not at all considered fast by anyone's standards.

Dodge attack i-frames:
Everyone with a dodge attack gets i-frames during the dodge portion but not during the actual attack animation therefore they can be hit out of their attack if it is timed correctly. JJ is no exception to this rule.

Never misses an unblockable:
Yeah, no. If there is a wall in the vicinity then JJ will more than likely hit the wall instead of the opponent because of the wide sweeping arc of his attacks. If you are suggesting that he magically phases through walls then you're going to have to provide video evidence to back up this claim.

Sifu Poise and Hidden Stance:
Sifu poise has much less viability as a defensive tool than hidden stance. Nobushi can use hidden stance to punish bashes whereas JJ cannot. Hidden stance allows you to counter-GB whereas JJ cannot counter GB while in Sifu poise and it's basically a free GB to the opponent. Furthermore, Nobushi can use her kick, light or heavy attack from Hidden Stance for a variety of punish options whereas JJ can only expect to do a stamina intensive zone from Sifu poise as a way to keep the opponent from getting a free GB on him.

Sifu poise is primarily meant to help JJ restore stamina as he uses a huge amount of it. It is not at all superior to Hidden Stance as an option select tool. They are two different tools for two different jobs.

JJs feats are the most overtuned thing about him and that's what needs to be nerfed. His damage can be nerfed slightly but only if he gets a better opener as compensation in my opinion.

"For example his soft feint into kick mixup needs to be made so that it is not dodgeable on just the timing of his dash forward heavy because that's just pathetic for an opener."

If anything JJ's kick needs to lose it ability to wall splat. It's the exact same opener as the kensei except the kensei's doesnt wall splat.

"Sifu poise is primarily meant to help JJ restore stamina as he uses a huge amount of it. It is not at all superior to Hidden Stance as an option select tool. They are two different tools for two different jobs"

Sifu poise has too much I frames in it to be considered worse then hidden stance. Hidden stance takes skill and proper timing to use correctly while sifu can be spammed and it works.

https://xboxclips.com/OhHowSheGoingEh/a0661f33-49b7-4c4f-b77b-9fbf88a14431

This is what I mean by "too much I frames" if he was playing the nobushi he would have eaten the light to face. But no, instead he can enter sifu at the beginning of my "dashing light" and be safe the entire time.

Siegfried-Z
12-30-2018, 11:33 PM
Haha, it might have been understated but it's definitely true. We'll have a lot more data (from more experienced vs. JJ players) to look at now, though.

JJ having too much damage is a pretty common take among players, and we've let the team know that people are saying so.

Haha yep ^^
Thanks for the feedback ! It is always pleasant to see we can be heard ;)

Vakris_One
12-31-2018, 02:22 AM
Of course being one of the best in one mode shouldnt result in being trash in the other.
I agree.

As you know even if i have stopped him, i've spend 30reps with Kensei.
You took him as an example and i perfectly agree he is one of the best rework so far and that's why i've always defend him against his big amount of haters.

But in my opinion JJ is already in the same kind of spot.
Even stronger in 4v4 where he even outshine Kensei. And at least as strong in 1v1.
Disagree. Kensei is much better in a 1v1 situation than JJ. What exactly are JJ's options in a 1v1? Side dash soft feint so his opponent can get a free light parry? Everything JJ can try in 1v1 can be shut out by simply being a decent turtle with good reactions.

In 4v4 I agree, JJ has incredibly good feats, a downright broken fast cooldown on his T4 fireworks feat and he can be a menace in group fights due to his damage. He is however a good anti-gank hero, which in my opinion is something this game sorely needs as ganking has become way too easy for the gankers what with bash-guarranteed attacks and especially CCs that prevent revenge activation flowing like water nowadays.



What i mean is JJ is not trash in 1v1, not really strong, but not trash, he is decent.
You cant put him on the same state than LB, WL or Raider, those strongly lack many things.
Debatable imo as JJ can be shut out just as effectively as any of those heroes if the player is of a high enough skill level. JJ, LB, WL and Raider for example all share the fact that they have nothing much to threaten a high level opponent with in a 1v1, not counting unlock running charge abuse.

It's really a question of if we actually want more heroes to have a variety of options and uses in all the modes like Kensei or whether we'd prefer to stick more heroes as one trick ponies or heroes that are heavily skewed in favour of just one mode.



What does JJ lack ?
He has pretty much everything except a Perfect opener. Because hes got one, he is just not really working in 1v1.
But, of course why not improving his kick if dmg are nerfed. It looks fair.

I am just afraid To see him becoming more spammy as he is already now if his kick become too strong. Have too see how it goes if it happen one day.

But if some soon changes have To be made, the most urgent is to fix his dmg. Currently he is devastating in 4v4 with his dmg, speed, range, aoe property, feats and stam regen 😲
His feats should take priority in my opinion but there's no reason that tweaking damage numbers cannot also be done at the same time. As you are afraid of him potentially becoming spammy I likewise am cautious of nerfing him too far into the other direction whereby he becomes practically useless unless played in an exploitative manner. It's not like we don't have plenty of examples of characters being overnerfed like this such as Warlord and PK.


Haha, it might have been understated but it's definitely true. We'll have a lot more data (from more experienced vs. JJ players) to look at now, though.

JJ having too much damage is a pretty common take among players, and we've let the team know that people are saying so.
To be honest, I'm not really going to be impressed if the developers show us a win matrix that is yet again pooled from over 30% of all players and doesn't seperate the data gathered into: just PC players and just Console players respectively, as well as seperating Platinum to Diamond and Master/Grandmaster ranks. That would be a minimum frankly. Showing us one big smushed together chart of 30% of all players is just going to fuel petty little flame wars across the forum and offer nothing much of actual worth for us.

Vakris_One
12-31-2018, 02:25 AM
"For example his soft feint into kick mixup needs to be made so that it is not dodgeable on just the timing of his dash forward heavy because that's just pathetic for an opener."

If anything JJ's kick needs to lose it ability to wall splat. It's the exact same opener as the kensei except the kensei's doesnt wall splat.
It's not actually. JJ's kick soft feint is an inferrior version of Kensei's pommel strike. Kensei doesn't need to first dash forward in order to get access to his pommel strike soft feint whereas JJ does and this a) massively telegraphs his intent to his opponent and b) opens him up to a GB. Furthermore you cannot dodge out of Kensei's entire pommel strike mixup with just the timing on seeing his top heavy whereas you can do just that against JJ.



"Sifu poise is primarily meant to help JJ restore stamina as he uses a huge amount of it. It is not at all superior to Hidden Stance as an option select tool. They are two different tools for two different jobs"

Sifu poise has too much I frames in it to be considered worse then hidden stance. Hidden stance takes skill and proper timing to use correctly while sifu can be spammed and it works.

https://xboxclips.com/OhHowSheGoingEh/a0661f33-49b7-4c4f-b77b-9fbf88a14431

This is what I mean by "too much I frames" if he was playing the nobushi he would have eaten the light to face. But no, instead he can enter sifu at the beginning of my "dashing light" and be safe the entire time.
You struck at the exact moment that he used Sifu poise though, what did you expect to happen in this instance? If he was a Nobushi using Hidden Stance the exact same thing would have happened except that he'd punish you with a light + bleed or GB into heavy.

You can't spam Sifu poise any more than you can spam Hidden Stance against competent opponents and expect to not get punished for it. Both require skill and timing to use correctly. The correct use of HS is as the ultimate option select tool, it is the single strongest counter attack tool in the entire game. Using Sifu as if it were a poor man's Hidden Stance is a quick way to getting beaten for anyone that is capable of capitalising on a Sifu happy JJ.

OhHowSheGoingEh
12-31-2018, 03:18 AM
Alright Vakris_One I see what you saying about JJ's kick while I still think it shouldn't give you a wall splat from it I do see where you are coming from.

As for the the sifu stance I will have to disagree with that. There is no way that hidden stance would have dodge that light. I hadnt even started my light attack before JJ entered his sifu stance and he still dodged the entire move.

Helnekromancer
12-31-2018, 05:17 AM
You can spam Sifu Poise to continually back dash away from opponents when you run out of stamina, similar to assassins who used to backdash until they universally nerfed it.

Why they gave to a Hero after they nerfed it across the board is beyond me

Siegfried-Z
12-31-2018, 08:48 AM
Disagree. Kensei is much better in a 1v1 situation than JJ. What exactly are JJ's options in a 1v1? Side dash soft feint so his opponent can get a free light parry? Everything JJ can try in 1v1 can be shut out by simply being a decent turtle with good reactions.

In 4v4 I agree, JJ has incredibly good feats, a downright broken fast cooldown on his T4 fireworks feat and he can be a menace in group fights due to his damage. He is however a good anti-gank hero, which in my opinion is something this game sorely needs as ganking has become way too easy for the gankers what with bash-guarranteed attacks and especially CCs that prevent revenge activation flowing like water nowadays.


Debatable imo as JJ can be shut out just as effectively as any of those heroes if the player is of a high enough skill level. JJ, LB, WL and Raider for example all share the fact that they have nothing much to threaten a high level opponent with in a 1v1, not counting unlock running charge abuse.

It's really a question of if we actually want more heroes to have a variety of options and uses in all the modes like Kensei or whether we'd prefer to stick more heroes as one trick ponies or heroes that are heavily skewed in favour of just one mode.


His feats should take priority in my opinion but there's no reason that tweaking damage numbers cannot also be done at the same time. As you are afraid of him potentially becoming spammy I likewise am cautious of nerfing him too far into the other direction whereby he becomes practically useless unless played in an exploitative manner. It's not like we don't have plenty of examples of characters being overnerfed like this such as Warlord and PK.

That's debatable again as i see JJ overall superior to Kensei even in a 1v1 scenario.

Those two are very comparable in terms of gameplay.

But if then a good turtle can shut down JJ offense, what Kensei can do ?

Kensei only options from neutral are :
Zone
Top light
Top heavy mix up

That's all.
Kensei only advantages over JJ are his faster zone and his slighly better pommel strike over JJ kick.
And i say slighly because yes Kensei pommel strike is harder to properly read but you can just shut it down with any fast attacks during the top heavy so he has the exact same problem than JJ. But without wallsplat property.

From Neutral only the top light is safe for Kensei while JJ can use the 3 directions .
Kensei cant use his 2nd lights except after dash attack or GB while JJ can with far less risk because kensei one are 600ms..

If a Kensei dash attack and realize he should not, he get punished anyway while JJ can feint it for whatever he want. A decent player would not spam his 400ms softfeint and then not gonna be parried that often.

Kensei UB mix up is a bit better than JJ one due to the few softfeint options but is harder to access to. Specially in 1v1. So i would say their ub mix up are on par.

JJ can get 28dmg from a heavy parry or a max punish if he used his slap while opponent is already low stam (that's crazy btw) just like Valk headbutt could do before.

JJ have bigger HP pool.
So, in my opinion JJ has nothing special inferior to Kensei.

And then we cant put his offense "problem" on the same level than LB or others one we talk about. JJ is just a Raider v2 if we have To compare them.

And of course i agree the game need more char good at anti ganking but being so shouldnt mean being as strong as JJ currently. Kensei is still the Perfect example of what ubi should look at for every balancing .
I prefer To have char with many options rather than one trick pony too. But JJ being qualified as lacking options is a bit rude in my opinion .

So, to sum it up.
We agree his feats and dmg should be nerfed To balance him in 4v4 but dont see him on the same spot in 1v1.
And then why not improving his kick to improve him in 1v1. But while we could do so, i agree with HighwithEagle it should not wallsplat. Getting a 40dmg ub on a fast bash like that is unfair. At least Warden has to charge his SB To do so^^

Herbstlicht
12-31-2018, 02:33 PM
As some throw-in: i guess we all would love heroes to be viable everywhere. And take warden because of last post - we would love more options instead of reliance on stupid bash-moves that give you free high damage hits. But after all my time with this game, for it to stay healthy and fun to the community as a whole, it seems to me of the utmost importance that 4on4 feels fair first. Just taking another example - getting hit by Shonobis ranged gb without any indication or whatever into this weird shaky camer-thing into his heavy and punish just is bad. But this, I fear, is hard to fix on the techside because the game really struggles with displaying its indicators correctly. However, adjusting damage numbers and feats so that one character doesnt really feel advantaged should be easy and could even be done more agressively. As said somewhere before, when overdoing it, you can always tune it back.

Vakris_One
12-31-2018, 04:39 PM
You can spam Sifu Poise to continually back dash away from opponents when you run out of stamina, similar to assassins who used to backdash until they universally nerfed it.

Why they gave to a Hero after they nerfed it across the board is beyond me
Because he uses twice as much stamina for his attacks than any other hero. Spamming Sifu will only result in getting you GBed. If you're getting away with spamming Sifu, especially in OOS, then your opponent simply isn't skilled enough to know what to do to stop you. Overusing Sifu is a free GB to anyone who knows what they're doing against a JJ.


That's debatable again as i see JJ overall superior to Kensei even in a 1v1 scenario.

Those two are very comparable in terms of gameplay.

But if then a good turtle can shut down JJ offense, what Kensei can do ?

Kensei only options from neutral are :
Zone
Top light
Top heavy mix up

That's all.
Kensei only advantages over JJ are his faster zone and his slighly better pommel strike over JJ kick.
And i say slighly because yes Kensei pommel strike is harder to properly read but you can just shut it down with any fast attacks during the top heavy so he has the exact same problem than JJ. But without wallsplat property.

From Neutral only the top light is safe for Kensei while JJ can use the 3 directions .
Kensei cant use his 2nd lights except after dash attack or GB while JJ can with far less risk because kensei one are 600ms..

If a Kensei dash attack and realize he should not, he get punished anyway while JJ can feint it for whatever he want. A decent player would not spam his 400ms softfeint and then not gonna be parried that often.

Kensei UB mix up is a bit better than JJ one due to the few softfeint options but is harder to access to. Specially in 1v1. So i would say their ub mix up are on par.

JJ can get 28dmg from a heavy parry or a max punish if he used his slap while opponent is already low stam (that's crazy btw) just like Valk headbutt could do before.

JJ have bigger HP pool.
So, in my opinion JJ has nothing special inferior to Kensei.

And then we cant put his offense "problem" on the same level than LB or others one we talk about. JJ is just a Raider v2 if we have To compare them.

And of course i agree the game need more char good at anti ganking but being so shouldnt mean being as strong as JJ currently. Kensei is still the Perfect example of what ubi should look at for every balancing .
I prefer To have char with many options rather than one trick pony too. But JJ being qualified as lacking options is a bit rude in my opinion .

So, to sum it up.
We agree his feats and dmg should be nerfed To balance him in 4v4 but dont see him on the same spot in 1v1.
And then why not improving his kick to improve him in 1v1. But while we could do so, i agree with HighwithEagle it should not wallsplat. Getting a 40dmg ub on a fast bash like that is unfair. At least Warden has to charge his SB To do so^^
I never said JJ lacked options so no idea what you find "rude" about something I never said. I said JJ is susceptible to being shut out by competent players for lack of an effective opener. Options-wise JJ has enough in my opinion, but having options isn't the same as having a viable opener. Having options doesn't mean much to someone who will turtle because nothing can force them to actually make a move/make a mistake.

Honestly man, we can sit here and type opinions at each other until the cows come home. You think JJ has more going for him than Kensei in 1v1, which is fine but I just don't agree. I've got 55 reps on Kensei and about 6 reps on JJ on PC and although I don't think there is a huge gap between them in 1s I find Kensei is a more viable choice. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

We can agree that JJ is the strongest 4v4 hero right now. As for the rest I've said my point of view and I'll leave it at that. The next move is up to Ubisoft and what they will do.

Siegfried-Z
12-31-2018, 04:55 PM
I never said JJ lacked options so no idea what you find "rude" about something I never said. I said JJ is susceptible to being shut out by competent players for lack of an effective opener. Options-wise JJ has enough in my opinion, but having options isn't the same as having a viable opener. Having options doesn't mean much to someone who will turtle because nothing can force them to actually make a move/make a mistake.

Honestly man, we can sit here and type opinions at each other until the cows come home. You think JJ has more going for him than Kensei in 1v1, which is fine but I just don't agree. I've got 55 reps on Kensei and about 6 reps on JJ on PC and although I don't think there is a huge gap between them in 1s I find Kensei is a more viable choice. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

We can agree that JJ is the strongest 4v4 hero right now. As for the rest I've said my point of view and I'll leave it at that. The next move is up to Ubisoft and what they will do.

Of course. Just wanted To explain you why i think that.

My pov come after a bit less of time spend with 30 reps on Kensei and 3 on JJ on console .

Now i have mooved To PC i don't play both anymore.
Lets see what Ubi does with that !