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gothkrieger
03-04-2011, 09:09 PM
Considering the cannon is in the centre of the propeller spinner and the guns are just above on the fuselage, is gun convergence a real issue? Sure there is a convergence point that can be attained but when it comes to hits, one would think that if you have set your convergence at 250, any distance up to that range would be basically equally dangerous.

gothkrieger
03-04-2011, 09:09 PM
Considering the cannon is in the centre of the propeller spinner and the guns are just above on the fuselage, is gun convergence a real issue? Sure there is a convergence point that can be attained but when it comes to hits, one would think that if you have set your convergence at 250, any distance up to that range would be basically equally dangerous.

ytareh
03-05-2011, 02:06 AM
While there is definitely some truth to your argument its not QUITE that simple ...For starters theres a vertical as well as horizontal aspect to convergence ...In my opinion its 100m convergencefor everything except for ground attack aircraft and P47s chasing Me262s!

M_Gunz
03-05-2011, 03:32 AM
Yup, the word convergence is a bit misleading for nose guns. I just don't remember if there is a term besides adjusting the sight zero to set the range at which bullet rise/drop crosses the sight center (or pipper). You actually get two crossing ranges with nose guns, one very close and the other should be set at effective range. In between the shots will hit slightly above the crosshairs (or pipper) and beyond the outer you need to correct for drop... when shooting horizontal. When shooting much up or down your shots will run higher than shooting horizontal.

gothkrieger
03-05-2011, 09:26 PM
Ok, that makes perfect sense, thanks guys.

ZG10_Oiink
03-06-2011, 01:39 AM
I have my shooting range at 150m down to 100m

MG`s are set to 150m and dpending on cannon type i have that set slightly higher to have full impact at same distance from all guns.

What you realy need to learn in the 109 is how to lead the target. Doing the first times in the 109 with nose guns you will tend to lead to little causing your bullets to drop behind the target.

When you find your magic spot (where you open fire) you work your convergence to that distance. All pilots shoots from different distances, so its vital you set your guns to what your personal distance is.

Hope it helps abit

gothkrieger
03-06-2011, 05:46 PM
Yes, been working on Lead, still have a way to go on that. Finding my problem with lead is my own manoeuvring at time of shot. I find it hard to shoot from a neutral stick situation, most of the time manoeuvring is going on and that has the most effect on my shooting, with rounds falling behind the target in an arc of one sort or another. The lead in these situations would entail shooting at the target when itís no longer in view, to have the proper lead, LOL. So its to point myself at the spot where he will be, without still manoeuvring when its time to shoot.

gothkrieger
03-06-2011, 05:54 PM
By the way, how does a convergence of 150 meters work against bombers? With the tail gunners, etc. I think getting that close would be bad for ones health. Yes I know we should not attack from behind but if you have to protect something, you donít always have time to get ahead of them or way above them to line up a shot, and then if it donít bring them down, it takes time again to get set up for the next pass, etc.

Erkki_M
03-07-2011, 12:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothkrieger:
By the way, how does a convergence of 150 meters work against bombers? With the tail gunners, etc. I think getting that close would be bad for ones health. Yes I know we should not attack from behind but if you have to protect something, you donít always have time to get ahead of them or way above them to line up a shot, and then if it donít bring them down, it takes time again to get set up for the next pass, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same rule of thumb applies, the closer you shoot the better. The further you can ID the target the better, as not all bombers can shoot to direct 6 or have guns below them. For example you can approach an Il-2 or SBD just slightly lower from the six, A-20s have just 1 rifle cal gun below as does He 111, Ju 88 has two. Heavies and B-25 are different in that they'll have at least 2 HMGs able to shoot to any direction, and G4M has a nasty tail 2cm tail stinger. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Like with escorting bombers, its usually better not to stay above the protected target but go out hunt the bombers before they get there. Hanging above the target you will see them too late and get max one head-on or very high deflection bounce before they bomb(or fighters attack the bombers you protect), if even that.

M_Gunz
03-07-2011, 02:18 AM
If your plane is much in slip when you shoot, the shots will have a sideways movement just from that. Turning while shooting, the shots go straight but your motion makes them appear to curve. If you focus on the target and it has apparent movement then the shots will appear to curve then.

Try placing yourself off to one side or under the target then roll or pitch towards a point to put the pipper well ahead of it so that the target appears to be approaching the pipper. When you know how long the target will take to get there and the shots should get there just ahead, start firing a short burst. The target will be over your nose, you won't be turning and your two biggest problems will be timing the shot and not colliding with the target. You can shoot a bit early and hold the trigger a half second or so but only a bit early.
You are drawing a line across the path of your target that he should not have time to turn away from. You are not trying to sweep your fire across his path. Your flight path and speed should be steady or turning slightly towards the target.
After you shoot, whether you hit or not, exit behind the target and crossing his path... unless he turns away from you.

It helps if you come in fast and unexpected. Not trying to get on the tail of the target will buy you some time, especially with the AI though AI or human may turn into your path to cut the time you have to line up a shot.

If you are closing fast then the time it takes your shots to reach the target will be shorter, you won't need as much lead and the longer the shot the more this is true. When you come in from 30 degrees or more then you will be closing even if you and the target are at the same speed. When you are cutting across a circle that the target is flying, you will close increasingly fast.

If I wait until I'm under 200m when closing in at 100+m/sec then I won't have time to shoot and veer away, but I am slow.

In a head-on shot treat long range as normal and normal as close.

If you are firing in much of a climb or dive, your shots will go high relative to the pipper.

The payoff for the difficulty of these shots is that the target will be more vulnerable. Usually much more vulnerable.

JG53Frankyboy
03-07-2011, 03:54 AM
in an only nose armed 109 1000m can be funny http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

MrSteven37
03-07-2011, 10:21 AM
For Spitfires, P-51's, P-47's and mostly anything else I have my convergence between 130m to 150m, however when I fly a P-38, because of the beautifully positioned guns, I have my convergence at an often mindblowing 450m. I'll explain... The guns being in the nose means that the convergence is basically an entirely vertical setting, so with the guns on 450m I can sit so far back from a bomber to the point where his AI gunner won't even be thinking about firing yet, and I can put perfect bursts into his plane. For when I'm mixing it up with fighters, and a lot closer in, the only real difference is that I have to put the gunsight dot a little lower than where I would if it were set to 150m. Having to do this slight adjustment is definitely worth being able to effectively bring down bombers from ridiculously long ranges. And to add, for whatever reason with the guns set at 450m it seems like you can hit targets at more like 750-800m away with a serious punch.

M_Gunz
03-07-2011, 03:11 PM
With wing guns being maybe 6m or less spread and convergence as a point plus scatter you get close grouping at + and - convergence as well. Just how much though is by-plane debatable. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

If you can line up your wings along the path of the target in a deflection shot then the crossing pattern inside and outside your convergence should put shots all along the path of the target but I've never really done any checking on that. With the P-51 the guns on each wing seem to be aimed parallel and there is no point-convergence but rather an X made of 2 or 3 lines on each side (or at least it was back when the guns fired synchronous before Pacific Fighters) it wouldn't work so well.

gothkrieger
03-07-2011, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">however when I fly a P-38, because of the beautifully positioned guns, I have my convergence at an often mindblowing 450m. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I am wondering with the Bf109 guns being centrally located, there is little convergence but more of an elevation issue. Wonder if this would work the same for a Bf109?