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View Full Version : OT: I finally saw the movie "Pearl Harbor"



XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:04 AM
It blew.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:04 AM
It blew.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/SkyChimp2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:09 AM
This is a movie that i'll never watch, Just like titanic we already know what happened, we know how it will end. I won't waste my time on unrealistic hollywood crap. I prefer documentaries.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:15 AM
It's a real shame the liberties Hollywood takes with History these days.

The real shame is that so many kids are too dumb to know the difference. For all they know, Ben Afflek won the war.


<center><img src= "http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-A0-52.jpg" height=215 width=365>

<center>"We are now in a position of inferiority...There is no doubt in my mind, nor in the minds of my fighter pilots, that the FW190 is the best all-round fighter in the world today."

Sholto Douglas, 17 July 1942

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:18 AM
Most movies with Ben Asslick blow.

_____________________________________
Proud flyer of IL2 Forgotten Battles: The home of the first, and only fully Kevlar covered airplanes...the Lagg 3 and I16 Rata.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:22 AM
I wish UbiSoft could give a push for a black and white movie about the russian or western front during WW2. A realistic movie with unknown but good actors... and make sure all that hollywood junk stays out of the project.
There's a lot of movies on concentration camps, submarines, POW and others (Patton, saving private Ryan...) but we never saw a good movie about aviation.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:26 AM
3 minutes of good footage in 2 hours


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:33 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- 3 minutes of good footage in 2 hours


But 117 minutes of crap footage ... got to love the Aegis class cruisers lined up all pretty, 43 years before their time .. Lucky the japs sunk em, cause the war would have been over much sooner.

CC

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:34 AM
rgr it sucked lol but hey everyone likes Memphis Belle

<center>I know my name is spelled wrong

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:41 AM
Go rent "Burnt by the sun"

rogo

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"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:54 AM
I really hated that movie because it just didn't emphasize on what really happended, and have you ever thought that production companies, actors, ect... are making money off of other peoples suffering and losses, it just makes me sick, although i did like U-571, although i doubt that they would use sailors as a kind of marine... my favorite line in that movie: "those krauts sure do how to build a boat".

Deutschland wird √ľber allen regieren

(Nationale Sozialisten k√¬∂nnen meinen arsch k√ľssen)

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:05 AM
i liked the movie pearl harbor. i thought it was good. i liked it better than tora tora tora.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:15 AM
SkyChimp,

Rent "Dark Blue World".

Might take the bad taste of PH away.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:33 AM
TORA! TORA! TORA!http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/verkleidung/costumed-smiley-060.gif


<center>http://www.assonetart.com/jsGodsgrace.jpg </center><center>/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The above statue was a gift from France</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:59 AM
"stalingrad"

and

"talvisota"

non-American films


http://www.delta.edu/jasonharmala/untitled.JPG

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:31 AM
It was love story BS, a complete disgrace and diss to the ones who died defending their country.

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----------------
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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:02 AM
It's a shame, really. Good theme for a wonderful movie, and it was completely wasted. If only they had had the guts to do, what Hollywood producers never seems to dare to do; make a movie with a really sad and upsetting ending about the tragedy that Pearl-Harbour was.
_
/Bjorn.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:11 AM
The worst part was how the balck cook, played by Cuba Godding Jr., shot down a Jap plane, then stops waht he was doing to cheer!

The sky was filled with Zeroes, but he had time enough to cheer! Stupid...

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:17 AM
Prefer Dark Blue World


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PgAAACQSryy4A4xj4eMo2xhgSY*LhYgGm7nMGXwMfCOuwMNOn Kf!*5CTS4B8On7Te0sX8Y9qEOGLDMnu71YytDB9a*U*ucJ!/db.jpg


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwDLAloSazoO90M75YrOyJAikk46QRXkDpuLKyr9zTTSbj9Er NZ9T8eRk6VOpdx6ofxJIkAoDbiwmIygP3LUFAzuXF6OPy1O/db6.jpg


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwDTAlYSfzmf8AXhoyzFecQia8E4y3aVRELIeXJoYxcs*7AOJ Q0Cg1Hn5YSSvzu02d4wFdVFR2Sn4QVmGYSiKXtn6hv3sQEj/db2.jpg


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwDTAlcSujmuFDTd9*TBa4KL13SgM4J6FPviDw74!X8C!LG2a *rORNtd6zYNcZ5iPY8gRTiF9M49!Ne4bbV37PVdZaH6NBkN/db3.jpg


http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PwBhAFgS9TkxmTDPe*7JMvAaOgwSL5Uig6BgV56Mk9xFKLMR0 iY0xth!LE4TKsQKdp5oSANr*eJ0bKUgGbeg09OEoy7l9W!U/db4.jpg




<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:30 AM
TORA TORA TORA

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:33 AM
The funniest thing about that movie is Tom Sizemore carrying a .50 cal machine gun up a 10 story tower in what? 2 minutes? Yeah, right.

http://www.mrboxman.com/mainsite/images/p38small.jpg (http://www.mrboxman.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:35 AM
Can someone tell me basically what "Dark Blue World" is about(no spoilers,please.)? I've heard nothing but good things about it. I'd love to see it...

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:44 AM
Germany takes Czechoslovakia. Multiple pilots from a squadron go to England to continue the fight [that was immenent]. Story is very powerful, first time I saw it the end scene had me welling up with tears.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:48 AM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:
- 3 minutes of good footage in 2 hours
-
-
- http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif
-
- Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't.
- (c) Leadspitter
-
-

------------------------------------------------------------
thats exactally what i was going to say. if you want to see a good movie bout' ww2 in the air, watch Memphis Belle. its a GREAT movie imo. if you havent seen it, i highly recomend it.

"diplomacy is saying 'good doggie' until you can find a really BIG rock."

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:58 AM
Elfunko wrote:
- Germany takes Czechoslovakia. Multiple pilots from
- a squadron go to England to continue the fight [that
- was immenent]. Story is very powerful, first time I
- saw it the end scene had me welling up with tears.


I heard it was a Czech film. Is it subtitled? Is it availible in the U.S.?

47|FC
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/p47-6.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:12 AM
Yeah, I'm interested in the movie (Dark Blue World), but no one gave suggestions on where to purchase it from. Also I hear Come and See is a good movie, though very brutal. http://www.kino.com

Nevermind, found it on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000648X2/qid%3D1061532798/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-7255278-0941665#product-details

Message Edited on 08/22/0306:14AM by modd_jfett

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:42 AM
I'd also recommend 12 O'Clock High and The Battle of Britain both of which are excellent aviation films that never seemed to get the fame they deserved.

michapma
08-22-2003, 07:49 AM
The Czech pilots speak Czech with each other, and in England they and the English speak English. The Germans speak German. There are subtitles when English is not being spoken.

The film is pretty well done but I personally didn't go for the plot all that much, although not because it was poorly written or acted. It does a great job of introducing the human element in such a conflict. It is more enjoyable for me than "Pearl Harbor".

I don't think "Pearl Harbor" is all that badly done for the kind of film it is meant to be. Its goal isn't to be a documentary film, it is to be a blockbuster. I think they meant well to honor the heros who sacrificed their lives, even to a small extent the Japanese. The point about making money off of other peoples' sacrifices is not a valid one. Even if you'd rather only see the pure documentary and the kind of blood-and-guts and suffering that the conflict itself is, there's nothing dishonorable or even unhistoric about introducing a romantic element into such a theme. (Dragging it out and emphasizing it might be a bit unfortunate.)

You shouldn't think that WWII was only blood and suffering. For Americans as well as Europeans, Asians and others, it was a time of heros and hope. Soldiers were also interested in romance and just were craving for normalcy to return. I don't think the veterans were upset about the love story aspect at all.

I would also rather have seen it portrayed in a more epic way, without some love triangle dominating the scene, and without unhistorical aspects such as the same two fighter pilots at PH also going on Doolittle's Raid. (Actually I don't know, but just have a very strong feeling that fighter pilots don't turn into bomber pilots overnight.) And yeah, unfortunately there was plently of Hollywood to be seen. But the film wasn't aimed at history buffs, it was aimed at the general public. The film showed that it was a tragedy for the American people, and I think that it isn't nothing that such a film was made. It certainly shouldn't just be dismissed.

Anyway,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 08:23 AM
crap-movie!

michapma
08-22-2003, 08:38 AM
Well said, Lithium! Brilliant review. /i/smilies/16x16_robot-wink.gif

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 08:55 AM
Dark Blue World is avaliable (DVD) on www.play.com (http://www.play.com) for 8.49 pounds sterling. Hardly a sizeable investment. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

--
Joques
Ok, so you've got a Yak
That don't impress me much

fluke39
08-22-2003, 09:20 AM
Aha!!

I knew the monthly 'Dark blue world' thread was lurking around here somewhere

looks like this month it's in disguise as the bi-monthly 'pearl harbor' thread

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 09:21 AM
"U-571" forces the storyline. The destroyer with no radio /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif blasts off completely with just one torpedo, as if it was completely loaded with nitroglycerine... no survivors... no witnesses to say that the allies have the Enigma Code Machine... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Sorry, I cannot believe it...

In "Pearl Harbor", the kids are playing baseball and their moms are all houseworking at 6:30 a.m... Then the handsome guys and the pretty nurses save the day destroying a lot of Zeroes and Kates... It seems like the Japs lost the battle... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Sorry, but... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It could be worst... it could be "Top Gun", with F-14s ignoring EW and radar, firing Phoenix missiles at close range and turning and dogfighting F-5s (MIG-32s ???) with guns... and winning... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

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michapma
08-22-2003, 09:29 AM
My dear fluke, there is no Dark Blue World thread. There is no bi-monthly Pearl Harbor thread. It is only a conspiracy theory. In fact these films do not exist. If they did exist, there would be no threads about them. But they do not exist.


DuxCorvan,

The Japs did lost some planes at Pearl. It hardly seemed to be portrayed as a victory to me, more like an outrage that triggered our inevitable entry into the war. Okay, so the outrage part was underplayed and the hero part was overplayed.

The determination and technical cleverness of the Japanese was underplayed, they are just shown as being sneaky. The famous quote about waking a sleeping giant seemed to be the only thing that hinted at the foolishness of Japan's aggression. If we were to remake the movie ourselves with our own abundantly evident movie-making knowledge and talent, I would insist on researching and portraying the Japanese side as much as the American. And if we're making it historical, I would try to throw in some scenes that relay the relief of other nations that America would finally be drug into the war.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 09:45 AM
I know that the Japanese lost some aircraft, but not the big amounts you can see in the movie. There were less US fighters in the air, and you can see the Japanese doing weird things, as attacking ships with light weapon fighters and so.

It seems like a somewhat improvised attack, but we know that the Japanese planned the attack carefully and accurately; and they had strategical, tactical and ethical doubts. This can't be seen in the film. Apart from the shock it was for the US people, and the moral implications of a surprise attack, it must be recognized that it was a genial plan, and a risky bet. But here the Japanese are presented as if they were evil aliens from outer space.

"Pearl Harbor" is just a romantic movie, that uses a huge tragedy as a scenery, a fashioned genre since "Titanic". It's spectacular and has a lot of emotion. But it cannot be considered a History movie. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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michapma
08-22-2003, 09:54 AM
Yeah I think most big productions get side tracked when the origins were well meant. It's not a historical film, and as I mentioned before this is not its intent. It's not my ideal of how a tribute to and drama about the events surrounding Pearl Harbor should be portrayed, but I'm still glad it was made.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 10:09 AM
I still enjoy the B&W film Dambusters. Even though it was made before I was born. Shame the dog got run over!

If only I could remember which lake they did the practise flights on..



BBloke

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 10:12 AM
Will someone please tell me how the sam hel Ben Aflec
went from the Asshat no one could stand in "Dazed & Confused" to mega star in 3 or 4 years?
Dazed & Confused was a funny movie with a pretty decant cast. Loved that one, was pretty close to my life in Jr & Sr high school. Dam shame that out of that whole cast only Aflec made anything of him self.

I watched PH ...thought it was "OK" from an entertainment stand point. Not worthy of watching again. But from a hidtorical stand point..yeah It Blew.

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 10:47 AM
Someone pointed out to me not to bother with U-571, citing the fact that people don't go spraying machine gun fire around in subs. Thought that was a good point. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif In fact even now people who've seen it said the biggest highlight was when they killed Jon Bon Jovi off. That doesn't say much for the movie.

One thing that I remember from when PH made it's debut was on BBC's Talking Movies. They interviewed some people in the US exiting a theatre and one woman said she wanted the Japanese side to get more of a mention. I thought 'I hope Hollywood is listening and changes it's approach'. Then about a month later was Sept 11 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif and at that moment I knew Hollywood would never make a historically accurate film again (assuming they ever did). I've read laundry lists of errors in these films, and they seem to have more complaints than compliments.

The biggest tick-off is this campaign to keep others quiet. There was that town is the UK that got peeved with the Titanic director for making out their local hero took bribes. Out came that fat Hollywood ***-coverer, the cheque book. Then there was the copy of some artist's work that was uncredited IIRC. For PH they parked some Veterans on a carrier to make the film seem relevant. U-571, they ignored everyone in the UK and around the world that told them the British recovered Enigma, not the US (who weren't even in the f***king war at the time). How bloody arrogant. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Give me Tora Tora Tora, Das Boot, Dambusters (agree, pity about '******' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif ), and Battle Of Britain.

Hollywood couldn't make a historically accurate film to save themselves. They need help to make anything good.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 11:13 AM
the best/funniest review I saw about Pearl Harbour was "The story of how the Japanese Imperial Navy lauched a suprise attack on an American love triangle"

While I'm re can I compalin about the movie "Enemy at the Gates" about Stalingrad the battle known as he "Ratskrieg", namelythe fact that The Soviets were portrayed using early war tactics ( one gun for every two soldiers, and chages accross open squares ) a battle that was fough house ot house and in the sewers.

Speaking of snipers anyone hear of the Canadian Cpl that set a new sniper world record in Afganistan 3000+ yards ( that's like tank vs. tank engament ranges ) with a 303, even and not the big mother of a 50cal sniper rifle. The sad thing is that he took a picture of himself and his record breaking kill, it became public in this too Politically Corect world and he was formally repremanded and demoted. I just hope history will vindicate him

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 11:13 AM
- It seems like a somewhat improvised attack, but we
- know that the Japanese planned the attack carefully
- and accurately; and they had strategical, tactical
- and ethical doubts. This can't be seen in the film.
- Apart from the shock it was for the US people, and
- the moral implications of a surprise attack, it must
- be recognized that it was a genial plan, and a risky
- bet. But here the Japanese are presented as if they
- were evil aliens from outer space.

It was Admiral Yamamoto who masterminded the attack, the greatest naval genius and probably the best naval aviation strategist of that time. He preferred not to attack the US but had no choice as politicians made the call. Yamamoto actually said in a pre-war speech of his that if Japan attacks the us then the peace treaty would not be signed in hawai or san francisco.. they would have to go all the way to Washington DC and do the politicians think they can do that (sarcasam). Propaganda machinery twisted that around to "we will make them sign the peace treaty not in hawai or SF but in W. DC /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Anyways there goes some info on the attacker. The movie suxxor except the planes. The hollywood way of presenting history is so naive that it makes me laugh /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

A great book on pacific naval/airwar and pilot accounts is "Get Yamamoto".

-Possu

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Admiral Yamamoto knew that america was a huge power but because of the U.S. fat headness and belife that that can rewite history and police the world is why they had to do the attac.k it from a miltary pint as an amazing attack and if he didnt call back the third wave that would of hit the oil storage the us would of been in serious *@^% U571 and capture of the eninogma was a british operation and the yanks had othing to do with it. we did it and yanks should stop thinlong that they can do what every like the moive was a crappy love story e.g. where were the hurriacens to attack the bombers spits didnt do that and why the *** was he yelling hammer down, stupid yank. and those cockpits have loads of space for them to have their outs out stretched when figting zeros. over all i think that america should make films that actually refect what happened not what they want to happen

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:16 PM
Even so the aerial scenes were nice......

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:21 PM
& the mechanic with the pump-action blowing holes in the Zeros passing by - why isn‚¬īt that in FB?

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:27 PM
BPond wrote:
- The worst part was how the balck cook, played by
- Cuba Godding Jr., shot down a Jap plane, then stops
- waht he was doing to cheer!
-
- The sky was filled with Zeroes, but he had time
- enough to cheer! Stupid...


Actually Dorie Miller WAS probably extatic that he shot down that plane..I believe he got a few more as well. You have to remember..in those days....1941....the Navy......even before the Tuskegee "experiment" proved that African Americans were just as brave, just as capable, and just as patriotic as any other red blooded Americans, his role was relegated to basically being a laborer, a cook or a waiter...... Wouldnt you cheer if you were under attack and scored a victory over your enemy utilising things you learned in basic that you thought you might never get the chance to use? Think about it..... Besides...it was Cuba Gooding for goodness sake...we're talking Mr. intensity here. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

If THAT was your only problem with the film you need to work on that film critic sensor of yours ......../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:38 PM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- Give me Tora Tora Tora, Das Boot, Dambusters (agree,
- pity about '******' and Battle Of Britain.


What's up with that M8? I dont get it........

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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<Center><div style="width:200;color:red;font-size:18pt;filter:shadow Blur[color=red,strength=8)">99th Pursuit Squadron

Message Edited on 08/22/0307:39AM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:39 PM
I found it amazing in PH how the P40s managed to outmaneuvre the zeros, climbing and diving at tremendous speeds. IMO the film was very boring. I heard somewhere that it was described as an island of excitement in a sea of tranquility and boredom (the film, not Pearl Harbor.) Just when you think the film is finishing, it goes straight to the Doolittle raids. Just very, very boring.
IMO the worst part of the film was when they joined eagle squadron. Although I liked the Spitfires and Me109s, I found the portrayal of the people and the area quite offensive. Every English person spoke with "totally spiffing accents," whilst the engineer was supposed to be Scottish. The base commander then gives the main character, Ben Afflek, a completely shot up Spit with a blood covered canopy, saying "he was a jolly good chap, landed the plane before dying." Although this is supposed to portray the suffering of the British at the time, it just seems ridiculous. The "base" is a large field with a nearby mansion. Had the Americans never heard of the proper RAF airbases, such as Kenley Aerodrome or Biggin Hill Airfield? These had proper facilities, not mansions. The whole section of that film makes it seem as if the Battle of Britain would have been lost had the American Eagle Squadron not intervened. Of course, the bravery of these pilots cannot be doubted, but it just seems as if the British were a third world country, fighting a war which they could not possibly win. Not everyone in Britain speeks in a posh, snobby accent (or a cockney one for that matter,) and the constant use of these in films is quite insulting.
Another quite funny part of the film was when the PH mechanic person shoots down a Zero with a Shotgun. This seems impossible and is quite laughable. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif BTW I do not want to be political, I just find Hollywoods portrayal of the war as slightly one-sided, to say the least.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:45 PM
Some of the best aviation films are Tora Tora Tora, Memphis Belle and the Battle of Britain. There was also a very good WW1 aviation film. I think it was called "Aces High" or something like that. The film gave an interesting perspective on the air war in World War One.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:48 PM
It was a multi millon doller love story, just like how they suckered us back in the day with Top Gun. If you want to at least see a flick on Pearl Harbor go get the orginal Tora Tora Tora. When it first come out it didn't do well in the US, but was a hit in Japan go figure.

Even though its from Hollywood there isnt any mushy junk in it.

May yo not become a dirt torpedo.

P.S.
No offense to the Brit but you guys were pretty much losing the war. Had Hitler not made the mistake of a two front war even with the US joining in Britian might not of made it. Be thankful Hitler was greedy.

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:48 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- Owl_NZ wrote:
-- Give me Tora Tora Tora, Das Boot, Dambusters (agree,
-- pity about '******' and Battle Of Britain.
-
-
- What's up with that M8? I dont get it........
-
****** was the dog in Dambusters, who belonged to Guy Gibson, the wing commander of 617 squadron. It was quite a sad part of the film when the dog was run over by a lorry. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

michapma
08-22-2003, 01:03 PM
PlatinumDragon,

Don't be so sure about that. You don't seem to grasp the significance of the Channel.

I have to go find a copy of BoB.

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:12 PM
Well, I should not say this. I'm Spanish, and since the times of Drake, Phillip II and the Armada, the British have always been our traditional enemies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

But, anyway, I must be worthy and admit that it seems to exist something like an anti-British campaign in Hollywood. It's not only that USA is adorning herself with others' merits (like in "U-571"). Have you seen the films of Mel Gibson? ("Braveheart", "The patriot") The English are presented as evil, snob, obscene, cruel and traitor creatures.

Well, I've enjoyed them a lot... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . And the British way of writing History is largely objectable (have you read "Empire", the Kamen's crap book?). /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif But, even if I enjoy this as an act of revenge for the Spanish Black Legend, I don't think this to be very fair...

Hollywood should leave the British alone. After all, being alone is what they like best! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

(Just kidding, I like English. Not English food, of course...) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Dux Corvan -

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michapma
08-22-2003, 01:18 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- Have you seen the films of Mel Gibson?
- ("Braveheart", "The patriot") The English are
- presented as evil, snob, obscene, cruel and traitor
- creatures.

But.... they are...



Aren't they?

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Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:22 PM
MZ6 wrote:

- Speaking of snipers anyone hear of the Canadian Cpl
- that set a new sniper world record in Afganistan
- 3000+ yards ( that's like tank vs. tank engament
- ranges ) with a 303, even and not the big mother of
- a 50cal sniper rifle. The sad thing is that he took
- a picture of himself and his record breaking kill,
- it became public in this too Politically Corect
- world and he was formally repremanded and demoted. I
- just hope history will vindicate him


come on now.. a 303 ??

It was a Big Mac .. Or MacMillen Tac-50 .. and the range was (still not confirmed) 2430 meters .. the 5 snipers were nominated for Bronze Stars for support of US troops in Operation Annaconda .. Candian brass just cant decide how to present the awrds, and are holding the process up.

OOPs ... also wanted to add Doris Miller's Citation from the Navy Cross ..

"For distinguished devotion to duty, extraordinary courage and disregard for his own personal safety during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, Territory of Hawaii, by Japanese forces on December 7, 1941. While at the side of his Captain on the bridge, Miller, despite enemy strafing and bombing and in the face of a serious fire, assisted in moving his Captain, who had been mortally wounded, to a place of greater safety, and later manned and operated a machine gun directed at enemy Japanese attacking aircraft until ordered to leave the bridge."

Didnt shoot down any AC ..


CC



Message Edited on 08/22/0312:41PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:24 PM
I hope not... if those topicals are confirmed... then topicals about Spanish could be confirmed, too. Have you seen "Mission: Impossible 2"?

Gulp! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:36 PM
Perhaps if there had been another campaign to invade Britain in 1941 the result might have been different. However, it must be remembered that without the British, the Americans would not have had a base to attack Europe from, nor the support of an important nation and its commonwealth. The whole war could have been quite different. The war was not, unlike what is portrayed in Hollywood, won by the USA, but was instead won by a huge alliance of nations. Each country had a part to play, and each was as important as the other. I believe that a fairer view of the war should be portrayed in these films, and should focus less on crappy love stories and more on the reality of war. And I have to agree with Duxcorvan, who wrote:
But, anyway, I must be worthy and admit that it seems to exist something like an anti-British campaign in Hollywood. It's not only that USA is adorning herself with others' merits (like in "U-571"). Have you seen the films of Mel Gibson? ("Braveheart", "The patriot") The English are presented as evil, snob, obscene, cruel and traitor creatures.
I have an interesting excerpt from Redcoat: The British Soldier in the Age of Horse and Musket by Richard Holmes: "Hollywood is entertainment rather than history, through its tendency to use the past as a vehicle for story telling blurs fact and fiction so that the latter assumes, however unintentionally, the authority of the former. The redcoat has recently featured on the screen in a role depressingly similar of that assigned to the German army after the second world war. Brutal or lumpish soldiers are led by nincompoops or sadists... Watch Rob Roy, Last of the Mohicans or, most recently, The Patriot, and you will wonder how this army of thugs and incompentents managed to fight its way across four continents and secure the greates empire the world has ever seen."
I really recommend reading the book, since it gives an excellent view of the British army in the 17th, 18th and 19th Centuries.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:37 PM
LOL..BTW: there's one BIG (!) question left:

How does Ben Affleck get from France (captured..) to Hawaii ?

Ah, I know: he swam ! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Spit Mk. IXers in 1941 Hmm... He111s attacking low level..not bad !
Messerschmitts exploding after a single hit, but the Spit takes the punch...

Which version of P-40 was used in the film ? Not the B /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

5 Zeroes crashing ino each other...lol..my gramma would have written a better stroryboard !

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig.jpg (http://www.virtual-jabog32.de)

http://franz.lampl.bei.t-online.de/toryusig2.jpg (http://www.jg68.de.vu)

When once you have tasted flight,
you will always walk the earth
with your eyes turned skyward;
to where you have been
and to where you always want to return.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:41 PM
My school took a field trip to see this movie when it came out because the teachers thought it was historical. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


http://home.grics.net/~donovan/lzsymbls.jpg
"Though the course may change sometimes, rivers always reach the sea."

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:47 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- Bearcat99 wrote:
-- Owl_NZ wrote:
--- Give me Tora Tora Tora, Das Boot, Dambusters (agree,
--- pity about '******' and Battle Of Britain.
--
--
-- What's up with that M8? I dont get it........
--
- ****** was the dog in Dambusters, who belonged to
- Guy Gibson, the wing commander of 617 squadron. It
- was quite a sad part of the film when the dog was
- run over by a lorry.

Hmmmmm I havent seen that one in years...... thanks for the heads up ED... I was sayin...W T F??? It just goes to show you how times have changed....think about it...... that dog would be named Rex, or Spets...or anything but that in a film today..... See how subtle the psychological manipulation is? Imagine..... 1950s America..you are African American andyou are watching this film....... real subtle........

Oh and Dux...... lets face it ...back (circa Wm Wallace, American revolution..) then many of the Brits who were running the show WERE nasty, snobbish, evil, greedy men. How else do you manage to take over the world so that the sun never sets on your empire.... You dont use tea and crumpets and civility...you use ruthlessness, cunning, technology and brute force.

PS....want to hear something funny....the word filter told me that W T F with no spaces was an innapropriate word...but it let me and the others who used it post the N word just fine......go figure........



Message Edited on 08/22/0308:50AM by Bearcat99

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:11 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- I have an interesting excerpt from Redcoat: The
- British Soldier in the Age of Horse and Musket by
- Richard Holmes: "Hollywood is entertainment rather
- than history, through its tendency to use the past
- as a vehicle for story telling blurs fact and
- fiction so that the latter assumes, however
- unintentionally, the authority of the former. The
- redcoat has recently featured on the screen in a
- role depressingly similar of that assigned to the
- German army after the second world war. Brutal or
- lumpish soldiers are led by nincompoops or
- sadists... Watch Rob Roy, Last of the Mohicans or,
- most recently, The Patriot, and you will wonder how
- this army of thugs and incompentents managed to
- fight its way across four continents and secure the
- greates empire the world has ever seen."


Well, nothing to object to, but... the greatest empire the world has ever seen was the Spanish/German Habsburg Empire in times of Emperor Charles I/V (ca. 1540). (Unless you are talking of a commercial empire...) /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

michapma
08-22-2003, 02:13 PM
Bremspropeller,

They might have had trouble getting the right models to use. 99% of all who watched the film couldn't tell the difference, mate. I forgot to look for any Peashooters in the film, there were some stationed at Wheeler, but quite sure they didn't have any of those in the film.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
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Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:16 PM
forget about all those Zero and Warhawk.

let's take a look at the Marines in

... the Windtalkers.

A good movie, stick to the real storyline, not many mistakes in the movie ... everything is so real.




<center>

'It is the Courage, not the score, that counts ...' - Mohd Naqiuddin

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:16 PM
No, but they had some Pee Shooters, as Ben Affleck... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

michapma
08-22-2003, 02:19 PM
Really. Windtalkers was so real?

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
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Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:21 PM
BOB? That was lost until one lonely bomber changed the outcome.

Before the coming days of BOB the raf was slaughtered by the LW. They didn't have the men or planes to keep up with the pounding from the Germans.

But on dark cloudy night a German bomber strayed from its course and dropped a bomb on London. Of course killing civilians. So Churchill couldn't stand for that so he ordered the raf to bomb Berlin. Ok no problem. Then Hitler gets pee-od and stops all bombing of the raf airfields and switched to bombing London for pay back. The Brits themselves admit to this being the turning point for it allowed them to re-organize and stop the LW.

Had Hitler let it slide and kept after the airfields England would of been invaded. So because of two ego maniacs it never came to pass.

As for how Brits are made to look in films is beyond me i still laugh at the days of Benny Hill and Monty Pyton.

PlatinumDragon...

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:23 PM
By the way, there was a Peashooter prototype in SCW, making flight tests for a posible order. It was not purchased, but it was used anyway... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

michapma
08-22-2003, 02:30 PM
http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/images/wright-patt/p26.jpg





<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:31 PM
Gotta, vote for the Memphis Belle.

When my son was about 4-5 he wanted to watch this movie over and over, you know how kids are. Usually they pick movies like All dogs go to heaven, or Fern Gully so I didnt complain.

I did become very familiar with The Memphis Belle back then./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Widgeon



Message Edited on 08/22/0309:31AM by widgeon

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:51 PM
- As bad as all the inaccuracies are in PH, I still love the way the BoB footage was shot, best arial footage filmed to date in my oppinion (Battle of Britain was a great film, but the technical limitations of it for the time are glaring).

-Dark Blue World, while a great film, still falls into all the cliches and love triangle traps traditional Hollywood films do.

-I am a Canadian, and fully realize the importance of the USA in WWI and WWII and I am forever gratefull to have a neighbor that looks out for my country, but they do take a little too much credit at times (I recall an article in the 70's talking about the "two greatest aces of WWI, Richtoven and RICKENBACKER??? Hmmmm IIRC, Rickenbacker only had 26 victories, there was QUITE the lineup ahead of him in that department on the Allied side).

But all this is moot, arguing sides after the fact is ridiculous, our grandfathers, fathers etc. didn't sacrifice their lives so WE could argue who did more of what and why this and that was won. They died so we could BETTER our selves, our lives, the way we treat others, and the world we live in.

Ryan

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 02:55 PM
Speaking of snipers anyone hear of the Canadian Cpl that set a new sniper world record in Afganistan 3000+ yards ( that's like tank vs. tank engament ranges ) with a 303, even and not the big mother of a 50cal sniper rifle. The sad thing is that he took a picture of himself and his record breaking kill, it became public in this too Politically Corect world and he was formally repremanded and demoted. I just hope history will vindicate him

Actually it was more close to 2400 meters and Im pretty sure it was a .50 cal. Still an amazing shot none-the-less.


http://www.military.ie/images/irlflag.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:21 PM
Well take U-571, What a load of crap that was!!!

It was the Brit's who first captured an Engima Machine, not the U.S/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:25 PM
Hi guys,

As for 'the Greatest Empire', much depends on what you mean by 'Greatest'. The British Empire was far from being the longest lasting empire in history. (The Roman Empire, for example lasted a heck of a lot longer.)

On the other hand, it did cover the largest area. At its height, more square miles of land and ocean were under British control than had ever been controlled by any power on Earth.

Hence the old saying "The Sun never sets on the British Empire" - this massive holding spanned the circumference of the globe and there was always some part of it that was in daylight.

This control was achieved through a complex combination of means, including naval supremacy, industry/technology, military conquest, exploitation and colonization.

And while there were good things to be said about it, as is the case with all empires there were things to be said that were not so good, especially when seen from the point of view of those being conquered or 'colonized' (and even, arrogantly, 'civilized' for their own good).

But that's empire building for you! During the same period, other (rival) European powers were also at it as hard and as fast as they were able. It was a mad scramble for real estate, riches and power.

All these European countries conquered and exploited in much the same way. It was only the scale of the enterprise that varied, with the British out in front.

Of course, the methods used for empire building between 1701 and 1901 would hardly be considered acceptable today, would they.

Would they?

We live in a very different World today, dont we?

Don't we?


Best regards to all,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:28 PM
hotspace wrote:
- Well take U-571, What a load of crap that was!!!
-
-

Yes..it wasn't until 1944 when the US captured U-505.


Are you really surprised that movie makers don't follow history?

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:29 PM
I wish we did, but take the war to get rid of Saddam.

That was just the U.S and the U.K flexing it's muscle's!!

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:30 PM
Perhaps if there had been another campaign to invade Britain in 1941 the result might have been different. However, it must be remembered that without the British, the Americans would not have had a base to attack Europe from, nor the support of an important nation and its commonwealth. The whole war could have been quite different. The war was not, unlike what is portrayed in Hollywood, won by the USA, but was instead won by a huge alliance of nations. Each country had a part to play, and each was as important as the other. I believe that a fairer view of the war should be portrayed in these films, obscene, cruel and traitor

i totally agree with this the yanks are aways going on on how they bailed us out in WW2 but they didnt they had enough manpower to supply people and weapons to fight but we had to provide the places to actually us them without brtiain the usa couldnt of do much if we didnt get the bismark (in america not only did they know about it and destory it they saved the whole of britain from it) but that ship would of dont serois damage to thier fleets but u are forgetting the 1 contry that bore 3/4 of german forces THE SOVIET UNION without hitler attacking them britain would of be flattended like a bug and then the moght of germany and russian could of been thrown against the usa and with japan fighting as well the usa would of taken serious damage and without thier nuke many would of died the british and sovits saved the usa and kept a very powerfull enemy at bay long enought for thier "ally" to help america may of tipped the balence but the rest of the allied countrys were needed to keep things balenced but with the resourcs gaind from the yanks the tide was turned

sorry for the crapppy spelling and grammer and i am not anti ameraican i like the tech and the country but its the way that they think they just help out them little countries that neeed help and that they are tring to re write history

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:33 PM
Yep. Rock on/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

michapma
08-22-2003, 03:42 PM
http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0712667024.02.MZZZZZZZ.jpg (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0712667024/ref=sr_aps_books_1_1/202-9364837-2171800)

You might want to have a read, it lends some useful perspective to the relationship of Great Britain and America during the war, as well as between other nations and factions. It also provides an excellent overview of Western Allied operations and the run of the war.

Cheers,
Mike

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:42 PM
not sure if this os over looked but the film we would like is one full of dogfights explsions and all the right stuff for the era and bots of of screen but most of it in the air wilth plnaes beating the crap out of each over but most people want something unrealisitic and want to think out love lasting thru anything and all that stuff so thats why hollywood does this they are trying to make money remeber but a film full of dogfilghting spits and 109s with loads of other olanes getting blown up to kicking *** but they woundt make enought to make profit but if we could get a 109 and a spit (early ones) and get them to dogfight in the air (no bullets) that would be sweet

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:05 PM
Pearl harbour,,, a whole flight of highly manoeuverable Zeros cant take down one crummy P40 from 50 yards behind. Ahh..the P40 is flown by ..THE HERO! Explains it all!

Platinum Dragon Wrote:

"BOB? That was lost until one lonely bomber changed the outcome.

Before the coming days of BOB the raf was slaughtered by the LW. They didn't have the men or planes to keep up with the pounding from the Germans.

But on dark cloudy night a German bomber strayed from its course and dropped a bomb on London. Of course killing civilians. So Churchill couldn't stand for that so he ordered the raf to bomb Berlin. Ok no problem. Then Hitler gets pee-od and stops all bombing of the raf airfields and switched to bombing London for pay back. The Brits themselves admit to this being the turning point for it allowed them to re-organize and stop the LW.

Had Hitler let it slide and kept after the airfields England would of been invaded. So because of two ego maniacs it never came to pass."


I'm afraid you don't know what you're talking about, m8. sighhhhh.

As to slaughter of the RAF before the BoB.....did they suddenly get better for the BoB?..certain elements suffered, sure like the Battle and Blenheim Squadrons, but that's not representative of all the RAF units in France.

Take a look at No1 Sqn Raf in France...114 enemy planes downed in 10 days for the loss of only 2 killed, 2 wounded, 1 prisoner of war....in that 'unterplane', the Hurricane Mk1.

5 of their number shot down 10 out of 15 Bf110's of ZG26 Horst Wessel, for the loss of one Hurri, pilot safe.

hardly RAF 'slaughter' that, is it.


"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:08 PM
-PlatinumDragon wrote

No offense to the Brit but you guys were pretty much losing the war. Had Hitler not made the mistake of a two front war even with the US joining in Britian might not of- made it. Be thankful Hitler was greedy.

PlatinumDragon...



/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif way to go giving credit to the brave men of the RAF there, who (at that time) kept Britain free of German troops by preventing the Luftwaffe from gaining air superiority.

Way to go.

Ham_Tyler - the amazing human lawndart!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:09 PM
I have a feeling you don't like the Brit's?

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:11 PM
If anyone won the war - It was the Russian's.

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

michapma
08-22-2003, 04:15 PM
No, it was the combined effort of the Allied Nations. Go figure.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="10"><tr valign="middle" bgcolor="#3e463b"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr bgcolor="#515e2f"><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
Mixture Magic (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182084-1.html)
Putting It All Together (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182085-1.html)
Those Fire-Breathing Turbos (Part 1 of 6) (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182102-1.html)</td><td align="center">

‚ =69.GIAP=Chap‚

69.GIAP (http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/giap/)</p></td><td width="40%" align="right" valign="top">Hardware:
Flight Simulation Performance Analyzed (http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_062a.html)
Building a home-made throttle quadrant step by step (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zkavv)
Sound Can Be Hazardous for Games (http://www6.tomshardware.com/game/20030405/index.html)</td></tr></table>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:16 PM
Owl_NZ wrote:

...
- Give me Tora Tora Tora, Das Boot, Dambusters (agree,
- pity about '******'), and Battle Of Britain.
-
- Hollywood couldn't make a historically accurate film
- to save themselves. They need help to make anything
- good.

ANYTHING?

A bit harsh aren't you? Some of the finest war movies ever made have come out of the Hollywood system. In fact you ironically mentioned one by bringing up Tora! Tora! Tora!

There have been other great movies as well. How about 12 o'clock High (one of the finest movies on the air war over Europe ever made), or Run Silent Run Deep, or Saving Private Ryan, or the miniseries Band of Brothers, or Patton... or Command Decision... or They Were Expendable... or The Longest Day... or... or.. or... I could produce 50 titles if I wanted to. Sure, the US has made a lot of junk but don't discount EVERY movie made in your passion to damn the Hollywood system. They do ok.

The US has never been all that good at historical accuracy (though there are some great exceptions to the rule) but I'm not convinced the rest of the world somehow does it better. I'm not aware of any place on earth that does it completely right.

Hollywood doesn't need anyone's outside help. All it needs are good people to show the way.

One of my favorite movies is 12 o'clock High. This movie is sucessful not because of you or the influence of the rest of the worlds film industries but because of a good director who had a vision to tell an accurate looking story AND a screenplay by Sy Bartlett and Beirne Lay Jr who actually served in the Eighth Air Force and saw much of what was written.

Regardless of whether they are historically accurate or not the US has made a LOT or war movie classics. I will bet that if a group of people in this forum (50 lets say) were to compile personal lists of their 30 favorite war movies I'm certain that over 50%+ of those 30 would have come out of the Hollywood system on almost all of those lists. Do you disagree?

Message Edited on 08/22/0309:06AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:17 PM
I have - It was the Russian's!!!!!!

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:23 PM
ROLL MY EYES.
You are right hotspace, the Russians did it all, everyone else died in vain, Good lord, grow up.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:36 PM
Witty.

I didn't say that the U.S, U.K etc didn't help - they did!

But if Hitler wasn't at war with the Russian's, he would of he more troops, plane's etc to fight us!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:49 PM
I dont think that Dark blue world is so good. It's a great film, but not too original

The storyline its the same as pear harbor and many others.


Two men loving the same woman,...etc etc

Pearl harbor = 95% love, 5% planes (nice scenes of spit's attacking He 111's)

Dark blue world = 90% love 10% planes (nice scenes aerial scenes)

S!

http://d2ol-counter.pietschmann.it/userstats.php?name=asmatic&lg=en&small=0
Fight SARS-D2OL (http://www.d2ol.com)

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:51 PM
Putting out a blanket statement as you did is ridiculous as anything based on "what if's" is pointless. The fact remains that without many factors and involvment by many countries things would have been a lot different than they ended up being. So giving credit to any one factor/nation is just silly.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:56 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Hot Space

An Antelope is not just for Christmas - It's for putting in Sandwich's as well!!!

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:05 PM
panther3485 wrote:
-
- Hence the old saying "The Sun never sets on the
- British Empire" - this massive holding spanned the
- circumference of the globe and there was always some
- part of it that was in daylight.


Sorry, but... the exact sentence is: "Now the sun never sets on my domains", and... it was said by Phillip II, King of Castile and Leon, King of Navarra, King of Portugal, King of Granada, King of the New Spain (Central and South America), King of the Eastern Indias (Philippines), King of Jerusalem (honorific), King of Low Countries and Flandes, King of Naples and Sicily, Duke of Barcelona, etc... well, the King of Spain. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

Taking others' merits seems to be the mark of Britain. Don't you wonder that other do the same. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The British Empire was the largest TRADE and COLONIAL empire. But you see, apart from the unavoidable injustices of that era (slavery, etc.) all the citizens within the Spanish Empire were considered as Spanish citizens, and all the territories as Spanish territory.

Don't forget that the American British colonies were just in the Eastern shore. And most British colonies all around the world worked as protectorates, with their own local governments, laws, kings and so, having, yes, an absolute subordinate relation with the British, but being theoretically "independent".

In the Spanish Main there were no more kings than the KIng of Spain. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:05 PM
Lol the Windtalkers.. I thought it was just another hollywood-crap.. Constantly Incoming waves of Japanese soldiers.. No wonder they lost the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif (And I allways thought that Enola Gay had somethign to do with it.. )

____________________________________



Official Sig:



<center>http://koti.mbnet.fi/vipez/shots/Vipez4.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:08 PM
Yet-another-blooper-in-PH:

(This is how it could have happened):

------------------------

producer1: OK, I saw on the photo that those Brits were painting some letters on their a/c...
producer2: So?
producer1: Well... they call them "squadron codes" or sth... go figure... so what will be the code for Eagles? I'm too busy to browse through books, you know...
producer2: Wait... we have Ben Affleck here... BA?
producer1: Naaah... not enough American for me...
producer2: OK... so how we are going to name Rafe's squadron?.... Wait! I've got it! Rafe! Take out the vowels: RF!
producer1: Bingo! Be it RF, then...

------------------------

And we ended up with a "RF" squadron scrambling to fight with Germans... search in the books: you'll find it was....


303rd RAF Polish Fighter Squadron!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Man, I LOVE this one! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Oh, BTW: I saw Dorie Miller on the picture and he doesn't look like Cuba Gooding Jr AT ALL! And I'll bet my rig he didn't behave like Cuba in PH, too.



R. "Rola" Skibicki

-----------------------------------
Polish Aviation Museum supports us!
http://www.muz-lotnictwa.krakow.pl

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:13 PM
For a fraction of the cost Dark Blue World delivers in every respect. It's light year better than that bloated, insipid Hollywood sheit Pearl Harbor.

That movie did a disservice to everyone who lost their lives in that tragic attack. But what else to you expect from Jerry Burckheimer and Michael Bay? All they know how to do is make big, loud, dumb movies. It's a shame.

Heaven forbid they should actually attempt to tell an intelligent, thoughtful story with three dimensional characters and historical accuracy.

Anyway, Dark Blue World is a terrific film that essentially tells pretty much the same story, two fighter pilots eager to serve their country who get caught in a love triangle, but is handled with such skill and class it bears no resemblance to Pearl Harbor.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:20 PM
Vipez- wrote:
- Lol the Windtalkers.. I thought it was just another
- hollywood-crap.. Constantly Incoming waves of
- Japanese soldiers.. No wonder they lost the war(And I allways thought that
- Enola Gay had somethign to do with it.. )


I'm not quite certain what the point of this post is. You can talk to any American Marine who fought on Iwo Jima or Okinawa or anywhere else in the Pacific for that matter and they will attest to the reality of those "incoming waves of Japanese soldiers." Enola Gay and BocksCar may have ended the war but by the time that happened Japanese forces had been attrited in the Pacific pretty badly as a result of fighting the Americans, Chinese, Brits, and almost everyone else for that matter.

I haven't seen Windtalkers. Was it trying to suggest that the war was won by any means other than through the use of the atomic bombs? I personally believe that a number of factors resulted in the surrender of Japan. Code breaking was one of them. The use of the atomic bombs were the "straw that broke the camel's back" though.



Message Edited on 08/22/0309:21AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:23 PM
I would say the worst part was Baldwin playing Jimmy Dolittle and when they are trying to get the B-25's to take-off in the shortest distance.

They slam the throttle forward and...

(Monguise pauses to gag)

The back tires on the B-25's spin and boil smoke!

Like the wheels actually have torque applied to them!

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:30 PM
PlatinumDragon wrote:
- BOB? That was lost until one lonely bomber changed
- the outcome.
-
- Before the coming days of BOB the raf was
- slaughtered by the LW. They didn't have the men or
- planes to keep up with the pounding from the
- Germans.
-



I don't know where you're learning your history. This just is not correct. The RAF was, in fact, holding it's own rather well against the Luftwaffe. The danger was not a lack of machines, but a lack of pilots to fly them. Hence, the recruitment from other nations to help Britain.

You also claim in another post that we were 'pretty much losing the war'. Again, I can't imagine how you arrived at that conclusion. Whilst we were not winning the war, Germany never managed to beat us, even when we were at our weakest.

Had Germany acheived air superiority, they still had to get to the Island, and the Royal Navy was absolutely huge at that time. Coastal defence was such an imperative that the large amount of vessels allocated to it actually harmed Britain in the first stages of the Battle of the Atlantic.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:36 PM
I like "Memphis Belle". Too many things in just one flight, that's true, but it's like an Encyclopedia of 8th AF bombing missions over Germany. They picked a lot of anecdotes, and joined all together in this movie, and it's a nice movie. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:37 PM
Skibicki wrote:
- Yet-another-blooper-in-PH:
-
- (This is how it could have happened):
-
-------------------------
-
- producer1: OK, I saw on the photo that those Brits
- were painting some letters on their a/c...
- producer2: So?
- producer1: Well... they call them "squadron codes"
- or sth... go figure... so what will be the code for
- Eagles? I'm too busy to browse through books, you
- know...
- producer2: Wait... we have Ben Affleck here... BA?
- producer1: Naaah... not enough American for me...
- producer2: OK... so how we are going to name Rafe's
- squadron?.... Wait! I've got it! Rafe! Take out the
- vowels: RF!
- producer1: Bingo! Be it RF, then...
-
-------------------------
-
- And we ended up with a "RF" squadron scrambling to
- fight with Germans... search in the books: you'll
- find it was....
-
-
- 303rd RAF Polish Fighter Squadron!!!-
- Man, I LOVE this one! -
-
-
- Oh, BTW: I saw Dorie Miller on the picture and he
- doesn't look like Cuba Gooding Jr AT ALL! And I'll
- bet my rig he didn't behave like Cuba in PH, too.
-
-
-
- R. "Rola" Skibicki
-


I personally don't care much for Pearl Harbor but I find it disturbing that in everyone's haste to bash this movie people have turned to trivialities. Do you know what a triviality is?

Who cares if the aircraft were marked RF or if Mr. Gooding didn't look like the real Dorie Miller. These are minor issues. The "larger" a movie is the greater the possibility that innacuracies will make their way into the movie despite the best intentions of the filmmakers. If Pearl Harbor has major innacuracies (and I'm sure it does) then please bring them up instead of wasting our time by focussing on irrelevancies.

I'm sure that by the time we get to page eight of this topic we will hear these as well:

"Did you see the tracer colors of the P-40s in the movie? They are supposed to be dark green instead of medium green!" HAHAHAHA

"Did you see that Japanese plane blow up that fountain in the middle of that square on Wheeler Field? That fountain wasn't really destroyed in the real battle. What a bunch of idiots those filmmakers must be! HAHAHAHA

I just made those up but the criticisms are beginning to reach this level. If there are some great examples of historical innacuracies in the movie that might seriously lead a general audience astray then please bring them up. Those would be worthy of posting.



Message Edited on 08/22/0309:38AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:40 PM
Monguise wrote:
- I would say the worst part was Baldwin playing Jimmy
- Dolittle and when they are trying to get the B-25's
- to take-off in the shortest distance.
-
- They slam the throttle forward and...
-
- (Monguise pauses to gag)
-
- The back tires on the B-25's spin and boil smoke!
-
- Like the wheels actually have torque applied to
- them!
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL



More triviality.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:47 PM
hotspace wrote:
- If anyone won the war - It was the Russian's.
-

China also doing their part for holding Jap troops in china, if not Jap will call to help his Allied German in Europe.

Allies won the war!!!

Lt.Davis

http://www.angelfire.com/hero/apvg/tigerlogo01.jpg


**Speed is the KEY**

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:50 PM
Oh, come one man.

That was a plain out insult to to our intelligence. The rear wheels spinning like a street rod?

The Tico cruisers and knox class frigates at Ford Island was pretty much unavoidable. For Brockheimer to go out of his way to make the rear wheels on the B-25's spin? that was just Hollywood being ignorant.



Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:52 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- I like "Memphis Belle". Too many things in just one
- flight, that's true, but it's like an Encyclopedia
- of 8th AF bombing missions over Germany. They picked
- a lot of anecdotes, and joined all together in this
- movie, and it's a nice movie.-
-- Dux Corvan -


Actually, there were aircraft that went through as much as what was seen in Memphis Belle. A short time ago I read an account of a B-29 mission in the PTO that went through much worse. Not only did the crew have to deal with onboard fires, engines out, a belly landing, wounded crew, and much more but the aircraft was hit twice by Japanese aircraft. One of those aircraft nearly severed the B-29s tail and exposed the tail gunner to the outside elements resulting in the pilots having to force the aircraft to lose altitude quickly in order to save him (He got trapped back there). He survived but had to have both of his hands amputated as a result of frostbite. I have read other outstanding accounts in books related to the air war over Europe and Japan that rival what was seen in MB.

The scenario in Memphis Belle is NOT far fetched at all.

The movie is innacurate in that the 25th mission of the Memphis Belle did not have the problems seen in the movie. The real Memphis Belle didn't have nearly the problems on its final mission as was depicted in the movie. It is still a good movie in that is shows reasonably accurately what aircrews in Europe had to deal with.



Message Edited on 08/22/0310:02AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:57 PM
Hey, that about the B-25s wheels spinnin' is true. The other day I stopped at the traffic lights, and one was by my side. We looked one each other fiercely and our engines roared, and our wheels screamed as we started the race. There was a chasm at the end of the street. I could brake on time, but the other guy couldn't and he fell. He was so lucky he was in a plane! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 05:58 PM
Monguise wrote:
- Oh, come one man.
-
- That was a plain out insult to to our intelligence.
- The rear wheels spinning like a street rod?
-
For Brockheimer
- to go out of his way to make the rear wheels on the
- B-25's spin? that was just Hollywood being ignorant.
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

I wouldn't know. I have never flown a B-25. I do know that extreme measures were taken to make sure that those B-25s would make it off of the short distance required as a result of the Hornet's deck. If you say that they didn't spin then I will defer to your "expertise" and just assume you know what you are talking about. I still think it's trivial.


- The Tico cruisers and knox class frigates at Ford
- Island was pretty much unavoidable.

Yep. Regrettable but most likely unavoidable.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:06 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- Hey, that about the B-25s wheels spinnin' is true.
- The other day I stopped at the traffic lights, and
- one was by my side. We looked one each other
- fiercely and our engines roared, and our wheels
- screamed as we started the race. There was a chasm
- at the end of the street. I could brake on time, but
- the other guy couldn't and he fell. He was so lucky
- he was in a plane!
-
-- Dux Corvan -

Interesting but uninformative.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:13 PM
I have never flown a B-25. I do
- know that extreme measures were taken to make sure
- that those B-25s would make it off of the short
- distance required as a result of the Hornet's deck.
- If you say that they didn't spin then I will defer
- to your "expertise" and just assume you know what
- you are talking about. I still think it's trivial.

Think about it. No "Expertise" is needed. Just good ole' common since.

The landing gear is not connected to the Engines on the plane so there is nothing to produce the torque required to make the wheels spin.

Think about it like this; When a dragster does his burn-out, only the rear wheels boil up smoke. The frond wheels don't because nothing on the engine is forcing them to turn. Get it?

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:14 PM
One cool thing about the BOB scenes in PH..... I knew what Affleck was doing iin the pit when he was pushing and pulling those levers....using pitch and flaps etc to maneuver..... at least thats what I thought.... The CEM in FB has opened up a whole new world of virtual flight to me.....

<CENTER>http://www.world-wide-net.com/tuskegeeairmen/ta-1943.jpg <marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"Straighten up.......Fly right..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:16 PM
Monguise wrote:
- I have never flown a B-25. I do
-- know that extreme measures were taken to make sure
-- that those B-25s would make it off of the short
-- distance required as a result of the Hornet's deck.
-- If you say that they didn't spin then I will defer
-- to your "expertise" and just assume you know what
-- you are talking about. I still think it's trivial.
-
- Think about it. No "Expertise" is needed. Just good
- ole' common since.
-
- The landing gear is not connected to the Engines on
- the plane so there is nothing to produce the torque
- required to make the wheels spin.
-
- Think about it like this; When a dragster does his
- burn-out, only the rear wheels boil up smoke. The
- frond wheels don't because nothing on the engine is
- forcing them to turn. Get it?
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

If you say so. Unfortunately you are still missing the point of what I am trying to say. It's still a triviality whether correct or not.

Listen, Pearl Harbor didn't work because it trivialized events by focusing on a love story where one wasn't needed. In terms of story and character development PH left a lot to be desired. Its great downfall among critics and many audience members had nothing to do with squealing tires or mismarked planes. PH was made for a regular paying audience. They should have gotten better than what they did as far as the story was concerned. Technical trivialities may make for a good laugh in a dedicated forum like this but most audiences don't care about that. Story, character development, and the "big picture" are what are most important in a historic epic movie. Little goofs are mearly trivial. I have a degree in history and I see innacuracies in even the most well meaning movies. If you focus on looking for every little technical fault then you will not be able to enjoy ANYTHING no matter how good it has the potential to be.


Message Edited on 08/22/0310:32AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:21 PM
Worldshatterer, if you think for a moment, why should the wheels on any aircraft spin at all until the plane actually moves? Unlike a car, where the wheels are the driving factor, no airplane wheels are powered. So, since they aren't under power, they can't move by themselves. The point is, it's the way filmmakers try to bring unnecessary tension into a film and in the process make gross errors. If you still think it's a triviality, consider this, by presenting you, the viewer, with a scene where something physically impossible is shown in a movie that claims to be fairly true to reality, the film maker is insulting your intellegence. If you're fine with that, then keep it to yourself, lest others doubt your intellegence at not having picked out that obvious bit of inaccuracy.

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"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:22 PM
- If you say so.

No, I don't say so.

Physics says so.

If you understood, you'd realize how ignorant it really was.

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:25 PM
UR_Spinne wrote:
- Worldshatterer, if you think for a moment, why
- should the wheels on any aircraft spin at all until
- the plane actually moves? Unlike a car, where the
- wheels are the driving factor, no airplane wheels
- are powered. So, since they aren't under power, they
- can't move by themselves. The point is, it's the way
- filmmakers try to bring unnecessary tension into a
- film and in the process make gross errors. If you
- still think it's a triviality, consider this, by
- presenting you, the viewer, with a scene where
- something physically impossible is shown in a movie
- that claims to be fairly true to reality, the film
- maker is insulting your intellegence. If you're fine
- with that, then keep it to yourself, lest others
- doubt your intellegence at not having picked out
- that obvious bit of inaccuracy.
-
Thank you. Well said. (Better said than me anyway.)

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:29 PM
Never seen the movie; afraid that, given everything I've heard, that I'm now too pre-prejudiced to even want to watch it ... (sigh) my losshttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Watched 12 O'clock high a couple of months ago (again), and IMO it ranks right up there at the top. The original footage is great stuff.

A couple of good short films are "Thunderbolt" and "The Fighting Lady" ... while they're wartime propoganda films, I was surprised the amount of honesty about the war (particularly in Thunderbolt).

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:29 PM
It's too simple. To do that, the wheels can't spin that way if they don't move by their own means. You know, if they aren't powered. And airplane wheels aren't.

Informative enough?

On the other side, it might be trivial. But, how can you feel moved by an epic moment in a movie, if they tell you that was true and you just can't believe what you see. If you're laughing, you can't feel implicated with the story. It's trivial, but that's a failure on the intentions of the film.

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:31 PM
Hiya DuxCorvan,

It appears that you may have missed the ESSENTIAL point that I was making in my post, or perhaps you were trying to read a bit too much into what I said.

No mate, the saying I WAS TALKING ABOUT most definitely is "The Sun never sets on the British Empire" (or something very similar), even if this was merely a British variation of an idea that was used at other times in history.

At no time did I claim that the concept itself was originally a British one. HOWEVER, the sense in which the British saying ACTUALLY APPLIED IN REALITY was, most certainly, unprecendented. No power on Earth had ever before had an empire that spanned the globe in this way.

My aim was to quote the BRITISH saying as it applied in particular to the BRITISH Empire. Previous uses of similar sayings, though interesting, are not relevant to my point.

The fact remains that the sheer scale of the British Empire at its height had never been rivalled. Comments about trade and commerce or the precise legal status of the inhabitants of colonies don't change that fact.

As for the British copying other people's ideas, I see no reason to believe they are significantly better or worse than other modern nations.

On the other hand, the sheer size and power of their empire did, in its time, have an enormous influence (both good and bad) on the development of the World.

I hope this clarifies the matter.

Best regards,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:34 PM
Don't watch it. I took my wife to see it and I spent the whole movie trying to look past all the inaccuracies so I could enjoy myself.


It was a struggle that I wish on none of you.



Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

The_Blue_Devil
08-22-2003, 06:38 PM
In the scene where they scramble the Spitfires there is a Sea Hurricane,go figure, in the background with the designation 7(o)L. My buddy WUAF Bader painted that baby in real life when she was being restored. In fact the skin is on IL2 skins.com

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>



Message Edited on 08/22/0305:53PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:41 PM
Monguise wrote:
-- If you say so.
-
- No, I don't say so.
-
- Physics says so.
-
- If you understood, you'd realize how ignorant it
- really was.
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

If you say so.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I wasn't disagreeing with you the first time I posted those four words. You are correct I'm sure. Sadly, you are trying to find an argument where none exists since I have already admitted to deferring to your expertise on this matter. Got it?

Never once did I say you were wrong when you brought this to my attention so I am at a loss as to why you feel hell bent on pushing this in my face over and over.

Now are you and your buddys going to give me six more dragster lectures or can we move on to something else?



Message Edited on 08/22/0310:56AM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:45 PM
WorldShatterer wrote:
- Monguise wrote:
--- If you say so.
--
-- No, I don't say so.
--
-- Physics says so.
--
-- If you understood, you'd realize how ignorant it
-- really was.
--
-- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL
-
- If you say so.
-
- I'm not disagreeing with you. I wasn't disagreeing
- with you the first time I posted those four words.
- You are correct I'm sure. Sadly, you are trying to
- find an argument where none exists since I have
- already admitted to deferring to your expertise on
- this matter. Got it?
-
- Now are you and your buddys going to give me six
- more dragster lectures or can we move on to
- something else?
-
-
-
-
-

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 06:47 PM
perioikos wrote:
- Watched 12 O'clock high a couple of months ago
- (again), and IMO it ranks right up there at the top.
- The original footage is great stuff.
-
-

It's a great movie. But even 12 o'clock High has a few technical innacuracies. This doesn't take away from the power of the movie though. In the end it feels right and looks right and has a great story as well.

The_Blue_Devil
08-22-2003, 06:51 PM
P.S. I saw the Pearl harbor director's cut..grea googly moogly it is racial!! I haven't heard the word Jap followed by so many curse words in my life. The one that made my hair stand up on end was Tom Sizemore calling the pilot that was chasing Rafe around the harbor a "Slant-Eyed C*ckSucker!!!" and before that shooting at the Level bombers with his shotgun shouting "Jap Moutherf*ckers!!"
Oh My Gentle Jesus. No wonder many Japanese folks protested that movie. On the plus side..it is 3 times as gorey and 5 times more unrealistic.. I.E. P-40e models defending the Harbor and not B models, and Ben Affleck taking the place of George Welch and Josh Hartnett taking the place of Ken Taylor.

<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
<center>[b]"Pilots who liked to dogifght could do it their own way. I avoided it. I always attacked at full speed and I evaded a bounce in the same manner. When you were hit from above and behind, and your attacker held his fire until he was really close, you knew you were in with someone who had a great deal of experience.-Erich Hartmann"[b]</center>


<center> <img src=http://www.angelfire.lycos.com/art2/devilart/MySigII.gif> </center>

<center> http://www.361stvfg.com </center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:06 PM
WorldShatterer wrote:
- Monguise wrote:
--- If you say so.
--
-- No, I don't say so.
--
-- Physics says so.
--
-- If you understood, you'd realize how ignorant it
-- really was.
--
-- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL
-
- If you say so.
-
- I'm not disagreeing with you. I wasn't disagreeing
- with you the first time I posted those four words.
- You are correct I'm sure. Sadly, you are trying to
- find an argument where none exists since I have
- already admitted to deferring to your expertise on
- this matter. Got it?
-
- Now are you and your buddys going to give me six
- more dragster lectures or can we move on to
- something else?
-
-
-
-
-

Word to you Newb-shatterer;

Being a wisea$$ to people on the forum because you're too thick to figure out common since physics is a good way to be written off as a troll. I was trying to explain to you why the tires spinning was not accurate in the movie.

I guess a simple "Thank you, I understand what you mean now." was too much for your pompous ego to handle.

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:08 PM
- It's a great movie. But even 12 o'clock High has a
- few technical innacuracies.

Yeah, but they were trivial.

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:13 PM
Ok, Panther, stop shouting, I'm not deaf! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes, you're right. The sheer power and extension of British Empire at its height had never been rivalled...

...except, by, perhaps the Spanish Empire at its height. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

"Eppur si muove" (A quote by Sir Isaac Newton, in an English History Book). /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Best regards,

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:28 PM
Man there's Just soooo much love for the US & Americains in this thread....{Sigh}

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:36 PM
"Pearl Harbor"...hmmm...even the luscious Kate Beckinsale couldn't save it...

Go see her in "Laurel Canyon"...you WILL not be disappointed...hot, hot, hot

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

12th IAP "Guards"

http://12iapil2ops.0catch.com/12th_iap_home_page.htm

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:38 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Man there's Just soooo much love for the US &
- Americains in this thread....{Sigh}
-


Sheesh, I think a troll reeled me in. Thought that only happened on Mondays.

Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:52 PM
Copperhead310th wrote:
- Man there's Just soooo much love for the US &
- Americains in this thread....{Sigh}
-

Hey, contrary to other countries represented here (including the Axis countries), we the Spanish have nothing to thank USA.

First, you make up all that mess about the Maine (an accident) and use your emergent huge power to steal us Cuba and the Philippine Islands.

The Spanish Republic was a democratic regime that was teared down by confrontation between radical politic forces. You thought that was not your own.

When the WW2 had finished and all the fascist rulers had been banished all over Europe, you just left us languish under General Franco for 30 years, just because he was against communists. Hitler was too, but then, that was your own.

Anyway, you didn't help us with reconstruction, precisely because General Franco was a fascist ruler. Maybe, if we had entered the war AGAINST YOU, you had helped us. Ironical, isn't it?

After all, you decided to help... in exchange for all those military bases that are spread all over the world and lots of obsolescent war material. Material used by Franco... to fight communism? No. To fight opposition.

Now, we are a democratic, NATO country. Morocco invades one of our islands. Yes, a ridicule stone in the middle of the sea. But OUR territory after all. We recover it. And Mr. Powell runs to comfort them, and say we must negotiate it. He could offer them Manhattan, but he prefers negotiating with an ally's territory. Just because he doesn't want to disappoint the most important non-integrist islamic ruler in the region, a despotic absolutist monarch who is making all his people evade to Europe. In exchange, Mr. Aznar supports him with the "massive destruction weapons" farsa, and receives a slap in the back.

Hardly gaining our sympathy, don't you think? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:56 PM
DuxCorvan, this sounds like another countrie`s history that I`m gonna have to read about /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I`m gonna have to watch Pearl harbour to see what all the fuss is about.



"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 08:10 PM
Just watched Dark Blue World. Great movie! It's amazing how they modeled air fighting. May be sombody knows whether they used real Spitfires or replicas. I'm confused as they wrecked so many of them...

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 08:14 PM
If they wrecked them, then they were mostly good replicas. You know, it costs LOTS of money and many tears to make one of those flyable again. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 09:48 PM
Monguise wrote:
- WorldShatterer wrote:
-- Monguise wrote:
---- If you say so.
---
--- No, I don't say so.
---
--- Physics says so.
---
--- If you understood, you'd realize how ignorant it
--- really was.
---
--- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL
--
-- If you say so.
--
-- I'm not disagreeing with you. I wasn't disagreeing
-- with you the first time I posted those four words.
-- You are correct I'm sure. Sadly, you are trying to
-- find an argument where none exists since I have
-- already admitted to deferring to your expertise on
-- this matter. Got it?
--
-- Now are you and your buddys going to give me six
-- more dragster lectures or can we move on to
-- something else?
--
--
--
--
--
-
- Word to you Newb-shatterer;
-
- Being a wisea$$ to people on the forum because
- you're too thick to figure out common since physics
- is a good way to be written off as a troll. I was
- trying to explain to you why the tires spinning was
- not accurate in the movie.
-
- I guess a simple "Thank you, I understand what you
- mean now." was too much for your pompous ego to
- handle.
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. It was never my intention to be a wisea$$. The very fact that I was unsure on this issue and deferred to your expertise was my way of indicating that I simply didn't know the answer. I have found your posts to be very informative and I am apperciative (that's another way of saying "Thank You"). If I seemed to get a little upset do not let it bother you. I have seen plenty of tempers fly in this thread. I appologize if I got out of line as I'm sure this is my fault.

I still believe that there are bigger issues that caused PH to fail than the ones that have been mentioned but if you disagree then we can only agree to disagree.

I want to make it clear once more though that I have never disagreed with you. In fact I mentioned this in a previous post. I simply wasn't concerned one way or the other. When you wrote your first post explaining the tire issue it made complete sense and explained everything very well. If I got bothered it was only because everyone seemed to want to jump on the bandwagon to explain this issue over and over. I am sure you would agree with me that it was a bit overkill. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It also bypassed my real point concerning the value of story and character development over tech issue. Sadly, no one seemed to want to discuss these points with me. I admit to feeling a little let down that the main thrust of what I was interested in talking about was ignored but that's ok. I realize that in the end we all have our own interests and points of discussion.

Again, I apologize if I really upset you since that was not my intent. I have been part of a lot of forums in the past and I have never been referred to as a troll. It bothers me that I may have crossed the line so early in this particular forum. I talked about some of my favorite movies like 12oCL among others in a hope that the thread could be steared toward something more positive than this PH attack (trust me, I really don't care for this movie despite appearing apologist). As a DVD owner of hundreds of titles I enjoy the celebration of good movies much more that the condemning of bad ones. The other point I brought up was related to trivialities. You an I may disagree on what constitutes a triviality but I believe we both have a right to draw that line where we wish. Sadly, in my enthusiasm I may have drawn that line at a point that has hurt a lot of people's feelings on this board. For that I apologize.

Also, don't be too hard on newbees. Everyone starts out as a newb when they start a forum. There are forums that I belong to in which I am not a newbee at all and others that I am. Sometimes you might find that NBs might have something of value to offer. If you want me to I will just stick around in the background since that is what I have been doing here at Il-2 for about a year now. Not posting saves me the risk of being appearing trollish. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It also saves me a lot of time.

_ I guess a simple "Thank you, I understand what you
- mean now." was too much for your pompous ego to
- handle.

If that is as close to a hello to the forum that I can hope to get then I will move on.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 11:57 PM
Monguise wrote:
-- It's a great movie. But even 12 o'clock High has a
-- few technical innacuracies.
-
- Yeah, but they were trivial.
-
- Friends don't let friends use MSSQL

Totally correct.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:17 AM
Monguise wrote:
- I guess a simple "Thank you, I understand what you
- mean now." was too much for your pompous ego to
- handle.
-

Sorry, but I have one more apology I need to make.

You might be correct in your assertion that my ego kept me from giving you the "Thank You" that you felt you deserved. I made the mistake of assuming that you could handle my approach to thanking you that I employed. I felt it was enough to simply defer to what you were saying. I should have been more obvious and forthright by simply saying "Thank You" but I did not. In the end I guess we all have egos (you included). Our ego thresholds all exist in different places. In the thousands of posts I have placed in various forums I have never turned to insults or name-calling. Unfortunately I seem to have upset you so badly that you felt the need to drop to that level. I appear to have provoked you more than I should have. I didn't give you the respect you felt you deserved by thanking you. My mistake was that I assumed your ego would be able to handle the approach I took. I was wrong. By not satisfying your need for recognition in the form of a humble thank you I appear to have crossed your ego threshold and insulted you. This in turn caused you to feel the need to insult me in the form of name-calling. Again, I apologize for leading you to that level.


A MESSAGE FOR EVERYONE ELSE:

I'm a bit shocked that this whole troublesome issue has been the result of something as simple as B-25 tires. There are better and more noble things worth discussing. I'm going to put this behind me because in the overall scheme of things this issue is too trivial to continue talking about. What is even stranger is the irony that I agree with everyone about the tire issue and yet people still feel the need to bash me over the head with it. That's very strange. Fortunately, with the exception of Monguise, no one has gotten offended by my presence. People may disagree with me but it hasn't gotten beyond the point of disagreement.

Thanks Guys. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't have a problem with Monguise disagreeing with me but when it devolves to the point of "troll", "pompous ego", and "Wisea$$" I admit to getting concerned. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trust me, if I really wanted to be a troll I could raise more havoc than imaginable. That's not my interest though.

In the end the way we aquit ourselves tells the world a lot about who we are as people.

Message Edited on 08/22/0306:23PM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:52 AM
Let me clarify something there WorldShatter. Hollywood 20-30 years ago was more capable AND willing to make stuff accurate. Now days they aren't. They just make it glossy. Sure the eye-candy effects look nice, but like candy it's all sugar and no substance.

Those films listed:
Tora Tora Tora: Had significant Japanese input.
Das Boot: German.
Battle Of Britain and Dambusters: British (or significant level of input from Britain).

With U-571 or PH did they ever get any meaningful input from the other countries? The evidence would suggest not.

I'm not saying that they never made 'good' films once upon a time. No doubt people can trott out a number of films from pre-1980's that were very good. I'm sure I could sit down one day (if I ever get the time to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) and watch some of the old-movie channels I'd be entertained What I'm saying is that nowdays they won't/can't make accurate war films because it isn't convenient, won't make them piles of money, and there is a current trend of re-writing history. That issue of the name of Guy Gibson's dog is just an example of this. When many of the complaints on this thread centre around the fact that the modern films portray to the naive that the US won the war single-handedly, it will lead to a corruption of history. Some of that has been seen already in opinions expressed on this board.

That Hollywood keeps saying "it's not meant to be an accurate portrayl", are they really that stupid that they don't realise many people (especially the young) regard these films as "accurate".

I dread the actions of some when Sept 11 films come out. I think you will see more anti Arab-American hostility of the likes seen immediately after Sept 11. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

History, it is said, is written by the victors. Unfortunately now one of the victors is writing the others out all together.

----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:04 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- Let me clarify something there WorldShatter.
- Hollywood 20-30 years ago was more capable AND
- willing to make stuff accurate. Now days they
- aren't. They just make it glossy. Sure the eye-candy
- effects look nice, but like candy it's all sugar and
- no substance.
-
- Those films listed:
- Tora Tora Tora: Had significant Japanese input.
- Das Boot: German.
- Battle Of Britain and Dambusters: British (or
- significant level of input from Britain).
-
- With U-571 or PH did they ever get any meaningful
- input from the other countries? The evidence would
- suggest not.
-
- I'm not saying that they never made 'good' films
- once upon a time. No doubt people can trott out a
- number of films from pre-1980's that were very good.
- I'm sure I could sit down one day (if I ever get the
- time to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ) and watch some of
- the old-movie channels I'd be entertained What I'm
- saying is that nowdays they won't/can't make
- accurate war films because it isn't convenient,
- won't make them piles of money, and there is a
- current trend of re-writing history. That issue of
- the name of Guy Gibson's dog is just an example of
- this. When many of the complaints on this thread
- centre around the fact that the modern films portray
- to the naive that the US won the war
- single-handedly, it will lead to a corruption of
- history. Some of that has been seen already in
- opinions expressed on this board.
-
- That Hollywood keeps saying "it's not meant to be an
- accurate portrayl", are they really that stupid that
- they don't realise many people (especially the
- young) regard these films as "accurate".
-
- I dread the actions of some when Sept 11 films come
- out. I think you will see more anti Arab-American
- hostility of the likes seen immediately after Sept
- 11. - History, it is said, is written by the victors.
- Unfortunately now one of the victors is writing the
- others out all together.

Thanks Owl, your argument is very good and I expected that you would say something like this. I agree with you. Now that you have clarified that you are only referring to newer movies I can understand more clearly where you are coming from. I haven't completely given up hope on Hollywood yet though. That's probably the optomist in me. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

U-571 and PH should have been much better movies than they ended up being. Fortunately, I have my DVD versions of Tora! Tora! Tora! and Das Boot to keep me satisfied.

Thanks for the post. Your comments have been balanced and fair.

You see, I'm not quite the trollish bad guy that Monguise has made me out to be. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif I respect his opinion even if it did lead to name-calling and insults being thrown my way. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Message Edited on 08/22/0305:12PM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:07 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
That Hollywood keeps saying "it's not meant to be an
- accurate portrayl", are they really that stupid that
- they don't realise many people (especially the
- young) regard these films as "accurate".
-
- I dread the actions of some when Sept 11 films come
- out. I think you will see more anti Arab-American
- hostility of the likes seen immediately after Sept
- 11.

Interesting... Isn`t there also a film coming out about that US girl soldier who was captured? I already saw a docu in UK saying that accounts of her fighting off Iraqis to the last man were untrue and she mysteriously suffered memory loss when asked about it. Also, other US officials wouldn`t answer BBC questions on the subject.

How accurate will this film be I wonder?




"Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good, rather than a Possible Evil."

SeaFireLIV.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:18 AM
SeaFireLIV wrote:
- Owl_NZ wrote:
- That Hollywood keeps saying "it's not meant to be an
-
-
-- accurate portrayl", are they really that stupid that
-- they don't realise many people (especially the
-- young) regard these films as "accurate".
--
-- I dread the actions of some when Sept 11 films come
-- out. I think you will see more anti Arab-American
-- hostility of the likes seen immediately after Sept
-- 11.
-
- Interesting... Isn`t there also a film coming out
- about that US girl soldier who was captured? I
- already saw a docu in UK saying that accounts of her
- fighting off Iraqis to the last man were untrue and
- she mysteriously suffered memory loss when asked
- about it. Also, other US officials wouldn`t answer
- BBC questions on the subject.
-
- How accurate will this film be I wonder?
-
-
-
-
-
- "Tis better to work towards an Impossible Good,
- rather than a Possible Evil."
-
- SeaFireLIV.

CBS (at least I think it was CBS) said that they were aware of the new information but would continue on with their plans for a movie. We will have to wait and see how it turns out. If I was CBS I would probably just cancel the project. No matter what approach they take someone will end up being offended I'm sure. Who knows.

One somewhat safe approach would be to show BOTH views. This might make the movie look like Courage Under Fire with the "truth" emerging through the interplay of additional evidence, the recollections of those who were there and the missteps taken by the media. There is an interesting story to be told here. The question is whether CBS can pull it off. Again, all we can do is see.

Message Edited on 08/22/0305:29PM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:45 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- History, it is said, is written by the victors.
- Unfortunately now one of the victors is writing the
- others out all together.
-

While it is true that victors write the history books it isn't quite as much of a problem as it used to be (fortunatly). For most of human history the victors could pull the wool over everyone's eyes all the time. Today we live in an information age which allows people to run across the "truth" easier than in the past. I'm not saying that we live in a perfect world in which the truth always comes out. What I'm saying is that people are more apt to run across those "dirty little secrets" much easier than in any other time in human history. The world's film industries may write history in their own style but anyone with the ability to research through good books and other means can often find the innacuracies where they might be. I mentioned in an earlier post that my degree is in history. The history of the ancient world in the areas of Western Asia and Egypt are particularly fascinating to me. It was amazing how rulers of the past were able to hide and eliminate the "problems" of history. This ability continued pretty unimpeded until very recently.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I agree with you. Your point is well taken and there is much truth to it. Unfortunatly I'm not sure the world will ever take on the unbiased attitude necessary to satisfy everyone with regard to conflict. That's human nature. Now I'm sounding like a pessimist. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif People will always feel the sway to support their side over all others. If we truly reached the point of understanding the other side's point of view then conflict peobably wouldn't happen at all and we would cease to be human as we understand the term.

Message Edited on 08/22/0305:57PM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:45 AM
No problem there WorldShatterer. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I find things get done quicker if people don't attack each other.

Sorry to this forum if my comments aren't clear enough sometimes. I find I have to post follow-ups as I've said something which is interpreted in a way I hadn't intended. All relates to not rambling on vs lack of clarity.

Anyway, here's hoping that Hollywood modifies it's approach to war movies so that all can be happy. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

My guess for the role of Pvt. Jessica Lynch (hope I got that right) - Angelina Jolie. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif





----------------------------------------

Beauty is only skin deep. Ugly, on the other hand goes all the way to the
bone.

Lt.Percy: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do ?"
Blackadder: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:51 AM
One phrase.....

"Hammer Time"

Waaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!????????????!!!!!!!!!! !!

That Movie Sux


<center><img src= "http://homepage.ntlworld.com/n.bulger/Emil_Bug.jpg">

AKA JG5_Emil

"I wish we all had the courage to confine our defence to three simple words....LICK MY A*S!" Herman Goering

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:59 AM
Owl_NZ wrote:
- No problem there WorldShatterer. I find things get done quicker
- if people don't attack each other.
-

Thank you. I very much agree. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We are all guilty of not being clear at times. It may have been lack of clarity on my part that led some people here to misinterpret what I was saying. I know that there is nothing so troublesome as being misunderstood when you actually agree with those misunderstanding you.

Point well taken.

Message Edited on 08/22/0306:02PM by WorldShatterer

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:26 AM
Funny, one of the best "war movies" I've ever seen was a Chinese film, that's right Chinese, called "Red Sorghum."

It's about a family wine vineyard in China that is overrun by the Japanese during WWII. The Chinese revolt and the revolt is crushed by the Japanese. The fighting scenes are intense. The uniforms and equipment are historically accurate. On top of that, it's beautifully filmed.

If you get a chance to see it, you have to watch it. I saw it on Bravo channel a few years ago and haven't seen or heard of it since.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/SkyChimp2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:30 AM
Hello DuxCorvan,

Sorry if you felt you were being shouted at.

I know that using caps is generally recognized in this way but it was not my intention to project the impression of shouting. If I wanted to do that, my entire post would have been in caps, not just a few words here and there.

In all my posts, in all the threads that I've ever joined, I have always used this method to add emphasis when I felt that emphasis was needed. For this purpose, I apply caps in isolated places, to individual words or small groups of words. I do not use it for whole sentences and I would definitely never use it for an entire post.

I must say that in all this time, up until now everyone SEEMS to have understood that this was merely my way of adding emphasis. You are the first person to have a go at me for shouting - maybe others have felt the same as you but didn't mention it? In any case, I apologize again if that's the way it came across.

In the normal way (when writing letters, articles etc outside this forum), I would generally use italics or bold for emphasis but I don't know how to enable these features when posting here. Perhaps you can help me with that?

Otherwise, from now on, if you see occasional words in caps, please understand that I am not shouting.

Anyway, as to the subject:

Yes, other European powers did have large empires and in particular, Spain followed perhaps by France and The Netherlands (not necessarily in that order, depending on the exact period) and even Portugal.

The Spanish empire, at its height, would probably have been the second biggest after the British. Large areas came under Spanish control, including parts of South America (with rivalry from Portugal), much of 'Central America' (including Mexico) plus bits of the Carribbean and even portions of the southern part of what is now the USA - for example, California. There were also sizeable clusters of islands, in particular the Philippines.

Even so, for sheer scale in the area of land and ocean that came under control, and the military and naval power to conquer, colonize and protect/police it, I don't think even the Spanish empire seriously rivalled the British.

This fact comes well and truly home when one considers the huge tracts of territory involved, for example -

*Canada (when the British finally wrested control from the French)

*The sub-continent of India and surrounding regions such as Pakistan, Bangladesh and Burma

*Sizeable chunks of the African continent

*The continent of Australia

An empire with a collection of territories of this size, combined with many smaller ones, and naval power to effectively dominate whole oceans, together with the industrial and economic muscle to project military power from one side of the world to the other, was something that had never truly been rivalled.

This is especially remarkable when one considers the tiny size of Britain - smaller than some of its European rivals, both in geographical area and in population.

Among the key factors were:

*Rapid and efficient industrialization

*A very powerful navy

*Aggressive foreign policy


Best regards,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:17 AM
'Pearl Harbour': surprised they didn't have Celine Dion sing a themesong ballad. Was really impressed to learn you could fly a plane rolled on its side straight for a mile just feet off the ground with no slippage. The rest I forget. I knew I shouldn't have watched that movie...

I just re-watched the Battle of Britain, which I had seen numerous times as a kid. Only now I realize that the dialogue often focusses on military topics that only afficionados can grasp, but in a really unpretentious way. I guess they could afford to be uncompromising back when that movie was made. Impressive air battles for the pre-computer age as well, much better than PH. Overall the movie is not perfect, but it doesn't try to suck up to all audience types at once, and so rings true.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:45 AM
Historical inaccuracies in movies, especially if they are to present a specific part of history, are in my opinion a very bad idea. Okay some movies are made as a sort of morale-boosters for the public, but they still present a sort of disrespect to the men who fought the battles and gave their lives. And in my opinion placing their actions on a piedestal does the same to the rest..

rgds

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 09:25 AM
Ok, Panther, I knew you were right almost from the start... it's just that I like argumenting a lot. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

You know, at first, English Empire fed almost exclusively on the Spanish Empire remains. The obsolescent Spanish Empire became a huge, centralized monster that was actually imposible to control, plagued with corruption and reactionary ideals.

Sometimes, I wonder how History had been if Medina-Sidonia had been a competent admiral, or the weather had been better, or Drake had gone fishing, or had existed the radio, to coordinate the movements of the 1588 Armada.

Well, maybe the English Empire could have not existed at all, but then, there was the 30 Years War, and the rebellion in the Low Contries, and Richelieu in France, and our traditional search for self-destruction. So, it's clear that the Spanish Empire was doomed, anyway. It had simply grown beyond control, refusing any new idea about political progress or scientific research.

I still don't know if British Empire was bigger. But it was better administrated and controlled for sure. So I must recognize it was the main power in Modern Europe.

They had one thing in common: living in a huge Empire didn't guarantee the medium citizen a decent quality-of-life... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:33 PM
SeaFireLIV wrote:- Interesting... Isn`t there also a film coming out
- about that US girl soldier who was captured? I
- already saw a docu in UK saying that accounts of her
- fighting off Iraqis to the last man were untrue and
- she mysteriously suffered memory loss when asked
- about it. Also, other US officials wouldn`t answer
- BBC questions on the subject.
-
- How accurate will this film be I wonder?
-
-

I am really dreading a film about "Saving Private Jenny" or whatever it is going to be called.
The whole story is the biggest lot of rubbish I have ever heard about. The U.S said that she was beaten, shot and treated extremely badly. The actual doctors at the hospital said that she was given the best treatment available, with one of only nine nurses (I think it was nine) to look after her. A return of the private was organised, but when they approached the US troops in an ambulance with the private onboard, they were shot at by the US soldiers. When the 'rescue' took place the Iraqi guards in the hospital had already left several days before. Instead the US troops used blanks, terrifying the patients in the hospital, and kicking down doors to get the best visual effects. The soldiers asked the doctors for the privates' location, and the doctors quickly told them. However the soldiers ignored this and 'searched' for the private, firing blanks at people who were not there and using flashbangs. Finally, when the private was returned home, she had lost her memory of the events and will never get it back. Instead of this, we will be getting a lot of utter rubbish, about how she was a true heroine and was rescued by "the best soldiers in the world." I, for one, never wish to see the film.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 12:57 PM
Hiya DuxCorvan,

Thanks for the timely reply.

Yeah, I too kinda like getting my teeth into a juicy subject and having a bit of a debate. I come to this board (and a few others I've been on) because nobody at home or at work is particularly interested in such subjects. It seems I have to go online to find kindred souls!

As for not knowing if the British Empire was the biggest, the way I came to realize was through a history project some years back. We were required to do an essay on the empires of the leading European powers, from 1501 to 1900.

Part of the exercise was to examine each of the empires at its height and measure the total land area under its control. This is not as difficult as it sounds, when you have reasonably accurate maps of the relevant regions in most cases. With the assistance of a computer and a modern atlas, square mileages (or square kilometerages, if you prefer) can be added up to give a reasonably accurate total.

The British Empire at its height had the largest land area, and not by just a narrow margin. The difference between it and the next nearest contender was very noticeable.

Then, when the ocean areas under its control were added, and compared with the ocean areas under the control of other seafaring empires, the difference was mega - nothing else came anywhere near it.

Of course, if you prefer not to take my word for it, you could easily embark on such an exercise yourself. All the relevant information is readily available. Of course, it is rather time consuming and if it had not been necessary for my project, I would probably never have tackled it.

As an aside, corruption and greed were by no means confined to the Spanish! The English/British certainly indulged in their fair share. Downright theft wasn't beyond them - they ripped off the Spanish and a number of others!

Anyway, here's to ya.

As an Australian living in one of the world's most multi-cultural societies, I always like to hear ideas and viewpoints from people of other nationalities.

Most of what you said about movies was right on target, in my opinion.

Best regards and keep smiling,
panther3485

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:00 PM
Dark Blue World - excellent movie but could use more flight scenes.

"Nothing difficult is ever easy"

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 01:48 PM
panther3485 wrote:
-
- Best regards and keep smiling,
- panther3485

It's been a pleasure. You're really kind. Thanks for your patience, and keep smiling, too. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:44 PM
SeaFireLIV wrote:

- Interesting... Isn`t there also a film coming out
- about that US girl soldier who was captured? I
- already saw a docu in UK saying that accounts of her
- fighting off Iraqis to the last man were untrue and
- she mysteriously suffered memory loss when asked
- about it. Also, other US officials wouldn`t answer
- BBC questions on the subject.
-

Phht .. they make her out to be a hero, some *** back here in the media compared her to the likes of Audie Murphy .. what a crock of shiite .. If she were like Audie Murphy, she would have finished off the last of 200 or so diaper heads with her E-tool.

CC

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 02:59 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- I am really dreading a film about "Saving Private
- Jenny" or whatever it is going to be called.
- The whole story is the biggest lot of rubbish I have
- ever heard about. ...........

................there and using flashbangs.
- Finally, when the private was returned home, she had
- lost her memory of the events and will never get it
- back. Instead of this, we will be getting a lot of
- utter rubbish, about how she was a true heroine and
- was rescued by "the best soldiers in the world." I,
- for one, never wish to see the film.


You got that right !! ... Best damned soldiers in the world

CC

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:39 PM
Coon-Chow wrote:
- Phht .. they make her out to be a hero, some ***
- back here in the media compared her to the likes of
- Audie Murphy .. what a crock of shiite .. If she
- were like Audie Murphy, she would have finished off
- the last of 200 or so diaper heads with her E-tool.
-
- CC
-
-

Yeah, the term "hero" has lost a lot of meaning over the years.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 03:52 PM
Heroes used to die in the past. You know, no retreat, no surrender, and all that... I don't mean that a hero (or heroine) can't be captured. But just being captured and then rescued doesn't convert you into a hero, I think.

I hope not to see that movie. I'm afraid that when I hear the first dialogue stupidity (backed by 'heroical' music) and I see the first 'evilish sweat-covered half-shaved Iraqi' (surely played by a Spanish-American actor) watching our heroine with lust, I'll start laughing and won't be able to stop until dawn... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

- Dux Corvan -

<center>http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/images/mash_hawkeye.jpg (http://www.bloggerheads.com/mash_quiz/)</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 04:08 PM
I totally agree. I can see it now. "Tell us everything now" says the unshaven, evil looking Saddam supporter, "No, I can't, I will not betray my country.........(dramatic pause).....or the flag!" says the heroine. Followed by a British officer saying "we can't go and do that. You'll have to do it yourselves. We fight for the Queen." Then an large well built US soldier will say "betray your allies you British swines!!! I volunteer to save her myself." Lots of brave american soldiers will step forwards to save her. After a dramatic battle, with 100,000,000 Iraqis being slaughtered by 10 "brave" soldiers, they find Private Lynch, who says "I love America." The British officer will then say "You've done a spiffing job, old boys. We are now having some tea and crumpets, do you care to join us?" The US soldiers will then shout "USA!USA!USA!" and there will be a final shot of the stars and stripes blowing in the wind.
THE END

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:21 PM
I think Speilberg should do another WWII film/series maybe on the pilots/AC of the 8th air force. Or any other country for that matter but emphasize fighter AC so as not to redo the movie Memphis BEll.

Its been a long time since we had a good WWII air combat movie.

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 05:38 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- ...


I am just curious: how long has it been since you were in a ground combat situation/engagement? Or did you serve in the Navy or Air Force?


<center>Wiley</center><center><font color="#FF0000";font size="3pt">Click HERE to visit Wiley'sWWIIGunCameraWorld (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/flightsims/oberstguncam/Frameset/)</center>
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<center><font size ="2pt">Click Flag-Raising for the Full-Size(4.2Mb) Version</center>


Message Edited on 08/23/0309:40AM by OberstWiley

XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:03 PM
MZ6 wrote:
- the best/funniest review I saw about Pearl Harbour
- was "The story of how the Japanese Imperial Navy
- lauched a suprise attack on an American love
- triangle"


GREAT !!!!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 06:12 PM
EDtheHead6445 wrote:
- Some of the best aviation films are Tora Tora Tora,
- Memphis Belle and the Battle of Britain. There was
- also a very good WW1 aviation film. I think it was
- called "Aces High" or something like that. The film
- gave an interesting perspective on the air war in
- World War One.

I agree 100%.
I think the WWI title was "The daay of the Eagles" or do (anyway, that's how it sounded in Italian).
Unfortunately, I missed Dark Bule World since it sttayed on screens not so long in my country.

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XyZspineZyX
08-23-2003, 07:14 PM
OberstWiley wrote:
-
- EDtheHead6445 wrote:
-- ...
-
-
- I am just curious: how long has it been since you
- were in a ground combat situation/engagement? Or did
- you serve in the Navy or Air Force?
-

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy a lot of films from Hollywood and the USA. I really enjoyed Band of Brothers, not because it was a patriotic piece of propoganda (which it most definitely was not) but because IMO it portrayed the reality of war. There were heroes, but there were also cowards. In a middle of a firefight, I am sure most soldiers do not think "oh, am I glad I'm fighting for Country x." In fact many soldiers probably think exactly the opposite. I just believe that a film about what was really a piece of propoganda would just not be at all authentic. I understand that people in combat situations go through terrible situations. BTW although I am not in the Army/RAF/Royal Navy, my sister's fiancee serves in the Royal Navy.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra