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Knight_Raime
12-06-2018, 11:06 PM
In today's patch notes (though a partial list) you decided to remove Shaolin's ability to feint back into his qi from his top heavy qi attack. This was a mistake. Rather than simply raging at you i'm going to explain how this effected gameplay before, why it was beneficial to have, and why I specifically (and i'm not the only one who asked for this) wanted this to be a feature in his kit for all of his qi heavies.

How did this effect the game before:

In low tier and low mid tier this tech was not really present. At this level you have people regularly landing the triple light. Maybe going into qi for kick after a light lands. This tech didn't effect this level of play. From mid to high mid tier is when you'd start to see this move. Because at this level players are semi competent and are capable of defending themselves from a good amount of things in the game. Usually you'd only have to use this once or twice in a match before it completely throws off the other person's balance and they start to fail at defending against Shaolin. This tech benefitted this tier.

For high tier and beyond this tech was very important. At this level people are capable of keeping Shaolin out of qi consistently if Shaolin plays predictably. This tech was a boon here. because it made whiffing into qi slightly out of range a viable thing to do. As it's some what bringing you back into range (which is important for kick) and forcing the opponent to make another read. Which is beneficial for Shaolin since he hardly ever has an advantage against his opponent outside of making hitstun happen. Finally this tech had hardly any impact on 4v4 play. Because in any gank/team fight scenario you're far more likely to be hit out of it. You simply don't have the time or space to make use of it in 4's.


Why was it beneficial to have?

Shaolin is a character that's entirely based on reads. He cannot react punish players with his qi moves. This is fine design wise, but the problem comes when this guessing game doesn't have to be played. Kick has a very small range to it. So small that whiffing a backwards light into qi always puts you out of kick range. What does this mean? It means you can space out shaolin's kick and Shaolin has no way to punish this. As he's forced to sit in place inside qi. And all of his options outside of kick are reactable. His only 500ms attack beyond his kick is his top light. And you're already blocking top anyway to avoid the 400ms light in neutral. So he can't really threaten with that attack either despite it being one of the two moves he has that have range (the other being his 700ms side qi heavy.)

Having this option available gave Shaolin the ability to still be threatening without hitstun. You had to guess between a committed to top heavy or not which was capable of hitting reaction dodges. And him feinting out of it normally or going into qi and going for either a kick or a side heavy. This wasn't safe though. As you can punish him for whiffing into qi on read. And you can attempt to option select parry his top heavy. The point is it essentially makes his kick always a threat. Which is vital to his mix up game.


Why did we want this to be a feature for his kit (including his other qi heavies?)

Because in higher level play shaolin does not have any effective pressuring tool versus a standard guard hero who turtles. his 400ms top light is good at interrupting some offense like warden's shoulder bash mix up. But even at that level of play if you used it too often it could be parried because neutral attacks are not variable via a delay. And 500ms lights are trivial. Whiffing a light into qi doesn't work on a turtle. And whiffing into heavy does not work against someone who stays in your face. Shaolin would have to whiff out of range to get into qi. Which removes kick from the scenario. Leaving him with 3 options.

feint out into forward dash heavy, qi top light, and qi side heavy. forward dash heavy could, if spaced properly take you into range but still whiff so you hold into qi to try and threaten with mix up. But if the person knows you're attempting this they can punish you on prediction with a fast zone/bash. Qi top light has range but is not variable and easily blockable/parryable. Can only realistically use this if someone tries to do something offensive. and qi side heavy. Which is a 700ms heavy with a short feint window. Since no hitstun is involved and you're using it for range I can just block/parry if you commit. Worse yet if I happen to have superior block on dodge.

Shaolin does not have good defense. He has reflex guard. And in qi he can't cgb, parry, or dodge. Feinting out of qi prevents you from doing everything sands blocking for 500ms. SInce shaolin can't dodge out of qi this means he can be predictably punished for using qi often versus most of the strong mix ups in the game. And because of how qi works he can't just simply wait out an opponents response and try to punish it. He essentially has a short window to attempt something before he's very likely to get punished. Not to mention all of his feint windows for his qi attacks sans his top heavy are short.

I'll summarize. Shaolin can be turtled against in high tier play vs static guard heros. His offense entirely relies on getting hit stun. Which doesn't happen if the person is blocking properly and staying in your face to punish a whiffed heavy into qi. He's not safe enough in qi to account for this turtle issue. Giving him the ability to feint into qi from his top heavy and his side heavy will allow him to always threaten with his qi kick without having to rely on landing a hit. This does not directly buff him as I mentioned already you can punish him essentially twice for attempting to do so. But doing so in either case requires the opponent to make as hard of a read as Shaolin has to. This feature would have very little impact on lower tier play simply because there is no need to perform these mix ups there since shaolin regularly lands attacks.


To close Please for the love of god don't let him dodge out of qi. Shaolin's poor defense in qi entirely justifies the potential strength his kit has. You would not be addressing his issue against static guard heros by doing this. His offense would still be lacking in high tier vs static guard turtles. You'd only make him harder to punish for lower tiers of play. You'd be creating a problem, not fixing one.

Kryltic
12-06-2018, 11:16 PM
The Shaolin needs a lot of nerfs, specifically a massive damage nerf. Just be glad he only got a slap on the wrist.

Knight_Raime
12-06-2018, 11:35 PM
The Shaolin needs a lot of nerfs, specifically a massive damage nerf. Just be glad he only got a slap on the wrist.

It's far more than a slap on the wrist. But you keep on raging at the hero instead of learning how to deal with him.

Illyrian_King
12-07-2018, 12:12 AM
Well I somehow agree with the nerf. Shaolin is mostly pure guessing, which also not too fun.

But I would exchange this instantly for a slight damage nerf (especially on his triple light)

Knight_Raime
12-07-2018, 12:22 AM
Well I somehow agree with the nerf. Shaolin is mostly pure guessing, which also not too fun.

But I would exchange this instantly for a slight damage nerf (especially on his triple light)

I've suggested in the past to change his damage numbers around for his triple light so it's 12 damage into qi mix up instead of the current 18. Would still be the same amount of total damage though. Problem with nerfing that is essentially you'd be making the choice for the player if you get the damage numbers wrong. The idea is to make it a choice for the player on wether they want the meatier confirmed damage or if they want to try to get more through qi.

I've seen the argument of nerfing his confirmed light off of kick from 20 to 18 in combination with changing triple light damage numbers around. I'd also be fine with this. As for nerfing any other damage from him i'm not entirely sure. Only one I could maybe see is his side heavy from qi.

EvoX.
12-07-2018, 12:32 AM
Who cares? Good riddance to it. Shaolin is everything I don't want the game to become - an absolute guessing fest.

Knight_Raime
12-07-2018, 12:52 AM
Who cares? Good riddance to it. Shaolin is everything I don't want the game to become - an absolute guessing fest.

Well unfortunately for you they're looking to increase the read part of the game. So. good luck.

Baggin_
12-07-2018, 12:54 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Personally I'm not a fan of "wiff tech" and believe it shouldn't be in the game. This goes for Highlanders wiff lite into OS as well.

It's just not realistic to do in a fight since it would not work in any real scenario. (Not saying this game is realistic, I'm just saying)

Knight_Raime
12-07-2018, 01:01 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with this. Personally I'm not a fan of "wiff tech" and believe it shouldn't be in the game. This goes for Highlanders wiff lite into OS as well.

It's just not realistic to do in a fight since it would not work in any real scenario. (Not saying this game is realistic, I'm just saying)

Whiff tech means something different as far as competitive speak goes. But I understand the general feeling. I'm not overly fond of this kind of play either. But it's the only way I can see them buffing Shaolin to be able to deal with turtles without tipping his potential offense to be insane.

psyminion
12-07-2018, 01:29 AM
*laughs in cowboy*

*rides off into the sunset*

Knight_Raime
12-07-2018, 02:25 AM
*laughs in cowboy*

*rides off into the sunset*

Fare well my western friend.

Siegfried-Z
12-07-2018, 10:06 AM
In today's patch notes (though a partial list) you decided to remove Shaolin's ability to feint back into his qi from his top heavy qi attack. This was a mistake. Rather than simply raging at you i'm going to explain how this effected gameplay before, why it was beneficial to have, and why I specifically (and i'm not the only one who asked for this) wanted this to be a feature in his kit for all of his qi heavies.

How did this effect the game before:

In low tier and low mid tier this tech was not really present. At this level you have people regularly landing the triple light. Maybe going into qi for kick after a light lands. This tech didn't effect this level of play. From mid to high mid tier is when you'd start to see this move. Because at this level players are semi competent and are capable of defending themselves from a good amount of things in the game. Usually you'd only have to use this once or twice in a match before it completely throws off the other person's balance and they start to fail at defending against Shaolin. This tech benefitted this tier.

For high tier and beyond this tech was very important. At this level people are capable of keeping Shaolin out of qi consistently if Shaolin plays predictably. This tech was a boon here. because it made whiffing into qi slightly out of range a viable thing to do. As it's some what bringing you back into range (which is important for kick) and forcing the opponent to make another read. Which is beneficial for Shaolin since he hardly ever has an advantage against his opponent outside of making hitstun happen. Finally this tech had hardly any impact on 4v4 play. Because in any gank/team fight scenario you're far more likely to be hit out of it. You simply don't have the time or space to make use of it in 4's.


Why was it beneficial to have?

Shaolin is a character that's entirely based on reads. He cannot react punish players with his qi moves. This is fine design wise, but the problem comes when this guessing game doesn't have to be played. Kick has a very small range to it. So small that whiffing a backwards light into qi always puts you out of kick range. What does this mean? It means you can space out shaolin's kick and Shaolin has no way to punish this. As he's forced to sit in place inside qi. And all of his options outside of kick are reactable. His only 500ms attack beyond his kick is his top light. And you're already blocking top anyway to avoid the 400ms light in neutral. So he can't really threaten with that attack either despite it being one of the two moves he has that have range (the other being his 700ms side qi heavy.)

Having this option available gave Shaolin the ability to still be threatening without hitstun. You had to guess between a committed to top heavy or not which was capable of hitting reaction dodges. And him feinting out of it normally or going into qi and going for either a kick or a side heavy. This wasn't safe though. As you can punish him for whiffing into qi on read. And you can attempt to option select parry his top heavy. The point is it essentially makes his kick always a threat. Which is vital to his mix up game.


Why did we want this to be a feature for his kit (including his other qi heavies?)

Because in higher level play shaolin does not have any effective pressuring tool versus a standard guard hero who turtles. his 400ms top light is good at interrupting some offense like warden's shoulder bash mix up. But even at that level of play if you used it too often it could be parried because neutral attacks are not variable via a delay. And 500ms lights are trivial. Whiffing a light into qi doesn't work on a turtle. And whiffing into heavy does not work against someone who stays in your face. Shaolin would have to whiff out of range to get into qi. Which removes kick from the scenario. Leaving him with 3 options.

feint out into forward dash heavy, qi top light, and qi side heavy. forward dash heavy could, if spaced properly take you into range but still whiff so you hold into qi to try and threaten with mix up. But if the person knows you're attempting this they can punish you on prediction with a fast zone/bash. Qi top light has range but is not variable and easily blockable/parryable. Can only realistically use this if someone tries to do something offensive. and qi side heavy. Which is a 700ms heavy with a short feint window. Since no hitstun is involved and you're using it for range I can just block/parry if you commit. Worse yet if I happen to have superior block on dodge.

Shaolin does not have good defense. He has reflex guard. And in qi he can't cgb, parry, or dodge. Feinting out of qi prevents you from doing everything sands blocking for 500ms. SInce shaolin can't dodge out of qi this means he can be predictably punished for using qi often versus most of the strong mix ups in the game. And because of how qi works he can't just simply wait out an opponents response and try to punish it. He essentially has a short window to attempt something before he's very likely to get punished. Not to mention all of his feint windows for his qi attacks sans his top heavy are short.

I'll summarize. Shaolin can be turtled against in high tier play vs static guard heros. His offense entirely relies on getting hit stun. Which doesn't happen if the person is blocking properly and staying in your face to punish a whiffed heavy into qi. He's not safe enough in qi to account for this turtle issue. Giving him the ability to feint into qi from his top heavy and his side heavy will allow him to always threaten with his qi kick without having to rely on landing a hit. This does not directly buff him as I mentioned already you can punish him essentially twice for attempting to do so. But doing so in either case requires the opponent to make as hard of a read as Shaolin has to. This feature would have very little impact on lower tier play simply because there is no need to perform these mix ups there since shaolin regularly lands attacks.


To close Please for the love of god don't let him dodge out of qi. Shaolin's poor defense in qi entirely justifies the potential strength his kit has. You would not be addressing his issue against static guard heros by doing this. His offense would still be lacking in high tier vs static guard turtles. You'd only make him harder to punish for lower tiers of play. You'd be creating a problem, not fixing one.

I understand your feelings about it if you're playing at least at Master level.. below that, is this moove so important ? Maybe at Diamond rank too on PC.
Anyway this Shaolin ability was a mistake from the team from release no? I'm not sure they wanted Shaolin able to feint Back his UB into QI.

I just moove on PC and i have to say i don't have mcuh problems with Shaolin here. And as i play mostly Musha currently i have to say Shaolin is one of the char i'm the most able to caught with BB.

I'm gonna read the Den's as i didn't for the moment but if they just nerfed a bit Shaolin i hope they did it with JJ too.

OhHowSheGoingEh
12-07-2018, 10:31 AM
Shouldn't the OG heroes receive their buff/reworks before any of the dlc heroes especially the wu lin?

Inzzane_79
12-07-2018, 11:53 AM
Shouldn't the OG heroes receive their buff/reworks before any of the dlc heroes especially the wu lin?

THIS +1

When will Ubi realise that the old heroes are not on par with the wu lin? You are at a disadvantage every freaking time you play an old hero against a wu lin

Siegfried-Z
12-07-2018, 12:03 PM
THIS +1

When will Ubi realise that the old heroes are not on par with the wu lin? You are at a disadvantage every freaking time you play an old hero against a wu lin

Does'nt apply to every match up. Nuxia is not superior than the old char first.

Shaolin and Tiandi are slightly superior on few points than the average but not that much. Tiandi isn"t superior on PC, only on console and Shaolin can be tricky sometimes but that's all.

For example Warden, Conq, Kensei, Zerk and a lot of others are not in worst spot than WuLin.

But, yes SOME old char are in troubles and needs love but once Shugo will be rework in S9 (plus maybe Cent goa have the same rework as shugo later) + Warlord balancing and PK Buff.. Only LB and Nobu gonna stay under average stregnh of the cast.

I play mostly Aramusha, Valk, Glad and Shaolin and i'm fine playing against WuLin Most of times except Dueling a Shaolin with Glad for example or having 2 JJ or more in the opposite team in 4V4.

JJ is out of consideration while he is the only WuLin which i agree is completly OP and needs a serious nerf. But again, in 4v4. I have already perfect some JJ in Duel with Glad.

Knight_Raime
12-07-2018, 01:56 PM
I understand your feelings about it if you're playing at least at Master level.. below that, is this moove so important ? Maybe at Diamond rank too on PC.
Anyway this Shaolin ability was a mistake from the team from release no? I'm not sure they wanted Shaolin able to feint Back his UB into QI.

I just moove on PC and i have to say i don't have mcuh problems with Shaolin here. And as i play mostly Musha currently i have to say Shaolin is one of the char i'm the most able to caught with BB.

I'm gonna read the Den's as i didn't for the moment but if they just nerfed a bit Shaolin i hope they did it with JJ too.

You don't need to even be in masters for this move to be helpful. High mid tier and above. Which is like. diamond/plat and above.
Yeah it wasn't intended. But that doesn't mean it should be removed on principal. As I mentioned it didn't effect the majority of players and only benefitted high tier play. It was a good thing for his kit that didn't deserve to be removed.

Siegfried-Z
12-07-2018, 03:07 PM
You don't need to even be in masters for this move to be helpful. High mid tier and above. Which is like. diamond/plat and above.
Yeah it wasn't intended. But that doesn't mean it should be removed on principal. As I mentioned it didn't effect the majority of players and only benefitted high tier play. It was a good thing for his kit that didn't deserve to be removed.

Tbh after some time really looking at shaolin and spending 2 reps with him. He is good but just fine. I don't wanted a nerf for him. But not a buff too (talk about your proposal to feint back into QI on all heavies).

But playing with him, i can win most of times without too much problems against the average player (let's say Gold is average low and plat average high).

ArchDukeInstinct
12-08-2018, 07:30 AM
In today's patch notes (though a partial list) you decided to remove Shaolin's ability to feint back into his qi from his top heavy qi attack. This was a mistake. Rather than simply raging at you i'm going to explain how this effected gameplay before, why it was beneficial to have, and why I specifically (and i'm not the only one who asked for this) wanted this to be a feature in his kit for all of his qi heavies.

*world's smallest violin plays*

Knight_Raime
12-08-2018, 12:16 PM
*world's smallest violin plays*

What no gif? You disappoint me.
Sad rah intensifies.

Soldier_of_Dawn
12-08-2018, 01:28 PM
They should have kept the feint in. Personally, I never saw a reason to nerf Shaolin at any point from his inception. I thought they were going to buff the weaker characters rather than nerf the strong ones. Also, I never understood the logic behind reducing the flexibility of a character because good flexibity is what makes fights less repetitive and boring, and more interesting.

UbiInsulin
12-08-2018, 10:45 PM
They should have kept the feint in. Personally, I never saw a reason to nerf Shaolin at any point from his inception. I thought they were going to buff the weaker characters rather than nerf the strong ones. Also, I never understood the logic behind reducing the flexibility of a character because good flexibity is what makes fights less repetitive and boring, and more interesting.

Keep in mind that this was something that was remarked on briefly as part of a big list of bug fixes. It was not something meant as a balance tweak, although it will have some impact there. I'm going to let the team know that some feel strongly that this should remain part of Shaolin's kit - although I'm also seeing people who welcome any kind of nerf to Shaolin, of course.

Knight_Raime
12-08-2018, 11:45 PM
They should have kept the feint in. Personally, I never saw a reason to nerf Shaolin at any point from his inception. I thought they were going to buff the weaker characters rather than nerf the strong ones. Also, I never understood the logic behind reducing the flexibility of a character because good flexibity is what makes fights less repetitive and boring, and more interesting.

The simple fact here is that it was unintended so it was removed. No other thought was given about it beyond that. Which is what's most upsetting.


Keep in mind that this was something that was remarked on briefly as part of a big list of bug fixes. It was not something meant as a balance tweak, although it will have some impact there. I'm going to let the team know that some feel strongly that this should remain part of Shaolin's kit - although I'm also seeing people who welcome any kind of nerf to Shaolin, of course.

Yes it was a bug. But the devs should know better by now. All things effect gameplay even bugs. So they should have considered what this bug allowed him to do and what impact it had on his match ups/gameplay before making a decision. The thing that's bothersome is it comes off as "we removed this because it wasn't intended" Which is just sad considering a lot of fighter games have gotten better over they years specifically because people find tech that ended up benefitting the game on a deeper level. So said things become a feature in a later version.

I could get behind this removal if it was only temporary so they can make it an actual mechanic in his kit later on. But there was no indication of that. Be sure to let them know that quite a lot of the competitive community enjoyed this interaction with his kit and wanted it to be a fully fledged feature in his kit. Both on his top heavy and side heavy from qi.

Vendelkin
12-09-2018, 12:53 AM
My only gripe with shaolin is hus triple side stab. I feel it does just a bit too much damage, and keeps your guard down for too long in ganks consequently. (Not that the gank part could be fixed, nor do i want it to be, but its another small reason the dmg should be slightly reduced). Then again it does take slightly more skill to time so it should be rewarded.

On the main subject. I have no issue with him feinting back into ki stance.

Kryltic
12-09-2018, 01:44 AM
It's far more than a slap on the wrist. But you keep on raging at the hero instead of learning how to deal with him.

You keep on loving a hero that sh*ts all over older heroes. Some heroes simply can't handle his move set and damage output.

I'm very much in the camp of toning down heroes a little rather than simply massively boosting others.

Knight_Raime
12-09-2018, 02:10 AM
My only gripe with shaolin is hus triple side stab. I feel it does just a bit too much damage, and keeps your guard down for too long in ganks consequently. (Not that the gank part could be fixed, nor do i want it to be, but its another small reason the dmg should be slightly reduced). Then again it does take slightly more skill to time so it should be rewarded.

On the main subject. I have no issue with him feinting back into ki stance.

As I have mentioned before I think his triple light should be changed and his light after his kick to be slightly nerfed. So instead of 12-6-6 it would be 6-6-12. This keeps it as a good threatening tool and decent heavy parry punish. But players are actually forced into a choice instead of always going for triple light. This in conjunction with nerfing the light after kick to 18 (from 20) means the combo most people deal with (double light into kick light) will now deal a total of 30 damage instead of 38. Both changes should make shaolin feel less painful for average play without changing his effectivness at a high level of play.


You keep on loving a hero that sh*ts all over older heroes. Some heroes simply can't handle his move set and damage output.

I'm very much in the camp of toning down heroes a little rather than simply massively boosting others.

Warlord, warden, conq, berzerker, glad, and shinobi (before his upcoming slide tackle nerf) are all ahead of shaolin in duels. Realistically the only heros that struggle versus shaolin are reflex guard heros and heros who are just objectively bad. I'm not against nerfing some of shaolin's damage. I am against removing something that was not present for most people's gameplay and had zero impact on it whilst nerfing his effectiveness at a high level of play. Me asking for feinting back into qi is not a direct buff to him in anyway shape or form. he's still just as vulnerable. It only means against static guard heros who are good at turtling will not completely shut him out.

I understand that things can be frustrating for players. But y'all need to not REEE at positive changes for heros you're not fond of just based on principal alone. I specifically talked about this stuff in depth in my main post to explain why players like you probably will not be impacted by this in the slightest. If you simply can't keep and open mind and want to disagree just because you dislike shaolin fine. But don't come into my thread unless you're going to actually contribute something meaningful to the discussion. Your post doesn't dismiss/disprove any claim I have made. So it is not a constructive post.

HighGround_S3G
12-09-2018, 04:48 AM
Shaolin needs a buff not a nerf, he is extremely easy to parry because his light attacks are so slow and his recovery time is horrible, once you parry him you can punish him.. did I mention his lights are super easy to parry? People who cry nerf shaolin have never played him competitively