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View Full Version : Patch 4.0: How much of a change to status quo?



drose01
05-22-2005, 10:24 PM
I know that, unless a beta tester weighs in, that this is mostly an area of speculation, but...

How different will the game be? Will the "uber" airplanes like the Spit be more average? Will "unter" airplanes like P38 come up a notch or two?

Will take offs and landings be harder? Stalls more frequent?

I am just wondering.

Now that I have really started to learn 3.04, I am wondering how much relearning there will be, about how to fly and about strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft.

I recall a video of a P51 doing some pretty amazing loops, I think it was made by a Beta tester. I also read on these forums that FW190 dive speed will be enhanced.

drose01
05-22-2005, 10:24 PM
I know that, unless a beta tester weighs in, that this is mostly an area of speculation, but...

How different will the game be? Will the "uber" airplanes like the Spit be more average? Will "unter" airplanes like P38 come up a notch or two?

Will take offs and landings be harder? Stalls more frequent?

I am just wondering.

Now that I have really started to learn 3.04, I am wondering how much relearning there will be, about how to fly and about strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft.

I recall a video of a P51 doing some pretty amazing loops, I think it was made by a Beta tester. I also read on these forums that FW190 dive speed will be enhanced.

Badsight.
05-22-2005, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now that I have really started to learn 3.04 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>v3.04 flys like it is on rails

v4.0 will not be as easy

VW-IceFire
05-22-2005, 10:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:
I know that, unless a beta tester weighs in, that this is mostly an area of speculation, but...

How different will the game be? Will the "uber" airplanes like the Spit be more average? Will "unter" airplanes like P38 come up a notch or two?

Will take offs and landings be harder? Stalls more frequent?

I am just wondering.

Now that I have really started to learn 3.04, I am wondering how much relearning there will be, about how to fly and about strengths and weaknesses of the aircraft.

I recall a video of a P51 doing some pretty amazing loops, I think it was made by a Beta tester. I also read on these forums that FW190 dive speed will be enhanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That P-51 doing loops wasn't even from this game.

I don't feel that the Spit is that uber or the P-38 is that unter...but I look forward to the new advances and new challenges. We've been told: be prepared to learn how to fly again. GOOD...its about time to level the play field again. Some of the moves people have been getting away with I think will be gone...

AlGroover
05-22-2005, 10:45 PM
New FM may even save us money! If slamming the stick around results in stalls then no more broken sticks.

JamesBlonde888
05-22-2005, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by AlGroover:
New FM may even save us money! If slamming the stick around results in stalls then no more broken sticks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oooh you rough beast! I am not letting you anywhere near my sister.

Bearcat99
05-23-2005, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Now that I have really started to learn 3.04 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>v3.04 flys like it is on rails

v4.0 will not be as easy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn t go that far.... LOL.. on rails... but from what I here it will be more... challenging.

WOLFMondo
05-23-2005, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by drose01:


How different will the game be? Will the "uber" airplanes like the Spit be more average? Will "unter" airplanes like P38 come up a notch or two? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its all to do with how you fly themhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. I can't make a P38 look uber but I've flown with people who can. probably 90% of virtual spitfire pilots cannot make it look uber, 10% can much like the 190's or 109's etc.

BenvZijl
05-23-2005, 07:32 AM
hehehe yeah mondo i believe i shot ya down a few times with a P38 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

vocatx
05-23-2005, 09:27 AM
This "uber" thing is soooo over done. Planes like the Spit are good, don't get me wrong, but the person handling the controls really makes the difference. I can get in a Spit and get shot down just as well as I do in a 109. I also know a couple of guys that can fly either plane and take most comers and make it look easy. Then again, last night on Spits v. 109 I knocked down at least two Spits and scored hits on several more while flying a Cr. 42.

More to the point of your post, I'm not so concerned about how the new FM will fly as I am about whether or not my computer will be able to handle it. Any changes to the handling of aircraft can be overcome by practice, in my opinion. Some of the "ace" pilots we have right now will probably find the playing field leveled, at least for a while.

Da_Godfatha
05-23-2005, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vocatx:
This "uber" thing is soooo over done. Planes like the Spit are good, don't get me wrong, but the person handling the controls really makes the difference. I can get in a Spit and get shot down just as well as I do in a 109. I also know a couple of guys that can fly either plane and take most comers and make it look easy. Then again, last night on Spits v. 109 I knocked down at least two Spits and scored hits on several more while flying a Cr. 42.

More to the point of your post, I'm not so concerned about how the new FM will fly as I am about whether or not my computer will be able to handle it. Any changes to the handling of aircraft can be overcome by practice, in my opinion. Some of the "ace" pilots we have right now will probably find the playing field leveled, at least for a while. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Dude, that is a load of Bull !! In RL maybe, but not in Oleg`s World !! There are some strange things about the Spit...everyone knows it, but no one admits it. That is why you can fly the Spit on WEP and never heat up. No, I hope this patch (did he say patch?) when and IF it ever comes, will address these issues. Maybe (but I doubt it) even the .50 cals will be fixed.

Tvrdi
05-23-2005, 10:24 AM
yeah overheating...test this and tell me which plane overheats when and in which docs u saw that (or anybody else9...we are so precise in documenting and arguing on other things like dive, climb, roll etc...btw did u check energy bleeding in Spit IXc...what a joke isnt it?

RedDeth
05-23-2005, 01:00 PM
little birdies say later builds planes ride on rails again.

Wolf-Strike
05-23-2005, 01:04 PM
Man this stuff kills the sim for me.The above poster says ""btw did u check energy bleeding in Spit IXc...what a joke isnt it?""

What does this mean....is it too good or too bad???

I find that when im up against a great 109 pilot in my spit IX....that the 109 seems way way uber.I get in the 109 and its one easy to get a kill in plane except for the controls freezing at higher speeds but this can be overcome.I just dont see why the spit is uber.

PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS SO I MAY USE THIS TACTIC ONLINE!!!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

chaikanut
05-23-2005, 01:43 PM
Will 4.0 be more fun though? The other versions were occasinally annoying trying to get used to the gunnery.

SeaFireLIV
05-23-2005, 02:23 PM
This`uber` and `flies on rails` thing I find real annoying.

Once the I16 flew on rails, once the Hurricane `out-of-the-box` flew on rails. No more.

I`ve flown the Spitfire to show a few friends of mine offline; I`ve spun the plane about chasing a bogey to kill it and finally land. My m8s want to fly cos it looks cool. They take it up (once they get over take off) and as soon as a bogey appears, they turn to fight and stall! And stall again! And again!

I`ll explain the principles of watching out for stalls, take it easy on the stick, etc, yet they find it very hard.
"You make it look so easy, as if it`s being held up by wires!" they`ll say.

Point is, when a guy`s had experience flying an aircraft they`ll make it look as if it`s `on rails`, doesn`t mean it is easy at all or even wrong. I remember how impossible it seemed to me to fly with stalls/spins until a Squad guy online showed me how to. In my noob days he looked as if he was on `rails` until it clicked.

A lot of this is the old whine against the hated Spit or whatever outturns the whiner`s aircraft and shoots him down.

I wonder how new pilots will feel with 4.0? If the rumours are true they`ll have a tough time learning to fly.

Jetbuff
05-23-2005, 02:34 PM
I'm sorry SeaFire, I usually agree with you but on this one I beg to differ. The Spit IXc's are a little fishy. Their climb rates at low speeds are beyond incredible and their top speeds the higher you go are generously modelled.

Yes, they can still be killed and I regularly do shoot them down in my trusty 190A-6. However, when I Boom a hard turning spit only to see it complete it's 360 and succeed in following me up in the zoom incredulity is all I am left with. Yes, in all likelihood that particular pilot is really good, but I DEFY him to be as good in another more accurately modelled aircraft like the Spit V.

BTW, I have flown the spit myself several times and I have never been shot down once in a fair contest, (read CoE or almost so) regardless of the opponent's mount. Now unless I magically transform into this uber-pilot every time I set foot in a spitfire IX, something's off.

SlickStick
05-23-2005, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I'm sorry SeaFire, I usually agree with you but on this one I beg to differ. The Spit IXc's are a little fishy. Their climb rates at low speeds are beyond incredible and their top speeds the higher you go are generously modelled.

Yes, they can still be killed and I regularly do shoot them down in my trusty 190A-6. However, when I Boom a hard turning spit only to see it complete it's 360 and succeed in following me up in the zoom incredulity is all I am left with. Yes, in all likelihood that particular pilot is really good, but I DEFY him to be as good in another more accurately modelled aircraft like the Spit V.

BTW, I have flown the spit myself several times and I have never been shot down once in a fair contest, (read CoE or almost so) regardless of the opponent's mount. Now unless I magically transform into this uber-pilot every time I set foot in a spitfire IX, something's off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, first of all, a Mk. V is nowhere near as fast as a Mk. IX. So, performing the same energy maneuver in a Mk. V vs. a Mk. IX is not really a fair comparison.

Secondly, there are undoubtedly ways to follow a B and Zer back-up into his zoom climb. The smart Spit pilot who is below the 109 keeps his speed up as fast as possible, performing shallow dives and slight degree turns to maintain energy for when the B and Zer is diving on them.

Then, as the B and Zer goes for his shot, the Spit lets him get to about 1km away, then makes a quick loop under the diving 109 attacker at an angle that will not let the 109 follow without slowing down immensely.

As the Spit pilot keeps his speed up near 450-500km/h, he then lets the 109 go by and wingsover behind him to follow him into the zoom climb. The difference in E-retention of the two planes (109 vs Spit) is not that far apart and if a Spit enters the zoom climb at the same speed or close to it as the 109, a Spitfire VIII or IX can follow the 109 far enough up into the zoom to either get a snap shot off or at least maintain the altitude, since the zoom climbing 109 is almost out of energy, by using full flaps to keep the Spit afloat up there.

Now, the really good 109ers can snap the nose around with almost no energy left and only need about .3 to .5km separation above the Spitfire to line the cannon up and catch the Spitfire at the pinnacle of his zoom. However, again the smart Spit pilot never allows his E to drop to stall speed in a climb. If it looks like I'm not going to catch a B and Zer, I'll abort the climb and setup for the next incoming dive.

Spits vs 109s is very dependant on the pilots in each. I really don't think Spits are that far off from what they were in RL and how they match-up with 109s in this game. Just my .02.

AS for the "fly on rails" part, I think that comes from the fact that all the planes in this game can be handled exactly the same using trim and flaps. The only differences are how far you can pull the stick in each plane, as stall speeds do vary, and the speed at which you can do it. Again, just my .02.

VOL_Hans
05-23-2005, 04:08 PM
There IS something fishey about the Spit-IX, and if you don't see it..Well, I'm not sure what to tell you. I've flown it in DF's with only a few pilots together on the LAN here (Very little or no lag) and it seems almost too easy. Flying against it disgusts me because of all the obvious BS flight modeling.

Thankfully the Spit-V takes some skill to fly.

HayateAce
05-23-2005, 04:38 PM
Another Luftw@nker Whine-In. Surprise surprise.

You folks cried, moaned and wailed until the U.S. birds were brought down in performance to a point that they can be easily domniated in online DF servers.

Now you just can't accept the Spitfire's RL superiority over Luftiebirdies, so you continually sob about it too. Weaker players just want easy prey, period.

Let's just delete all aircraft except the FantasyBogus~109 and we can all fly around in a big circle-jerk and blast the **** out of each other with our No-Aim-Easy-Kill-Noob-Potato leet gunzzors.

If any FM needed to be addressed in 4.0, it is the Fantasy 1-OH-WHINE.

Current representation of FB~109 FM:

http://www.marshall.edu/lego/ati/duplo/atiduplo811mm48.jpg

faustnik
05-23-2005, 05:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
I'm sorry SeaFire, I usually agree with you but on this one I beg to differ. The Spit IXc's are a little fishy. Their climb rates at low speeds are beyond incredible and their top speeds the higher you go are generously modelled.

Yes, they can still be killed and I regularly do shoot them down in my trusty 190A-6. However, when I Boom a hard turning spit only to see it complete it's 360 and succeed in following me up in the zoom incredulity is all I am left with. Yes, in all likelihood that particular pilot is really good, but I DEFY him to be as good in another more accurately modelled aircraft like the Spit V.

BTW, I have flown the spit myself several times and I have never been shot down once in a fair contest, (read CoE or almost so) regardless of the opponent's mount. Now unless I magically transform into this uber-pilot every time I set foot in a spitfire IX, something's off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I have seen the Spit IXc insta-180 deal too, it is strange. The problem is that the exact reason for the problem has not been solved. You can't just say, "the Spit doesn't bleed E" because it obviously does. Maybe the problem lies in acceleration, climb rate or something else entirely? Until the problem is identified and quatified, there is really nothing to talk about.

EURO_Snoopy
05-23-2005, 05:11 PM
Much fluff

Lucius_Esox
05-23-2005, 05:18 PM
Ermm,
Just curious, wasn't the Spitfire just a little uber in real life as well when engine power was equal?

SlickStick
05-23-2005, 05:33 PM
I have no need to go as far as HayateAce, but one thing that is laughable about the 109 is the amazing mid-air braking ability of the plane using prop pitch and zero throttle.

I LMAO everytime a 109 is diving at over 700km/h, slows to almost an instant stop and then accelerates again to infinity and beyoooooooond. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My favorite about certain flyers in the online community is when they call you a noob for flying a Spitfire, yet, if I was to fly a 109 or FW regularly, I would easily quadruple my 10-1 average kill/death ratio with half of the effort it takes now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I turn because I can. B and Z is a choice for me, not a requirement for my online survival, like most B and Zers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

faustnik
05-23-2005, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
if I was to fly a 109 or FW regularly, I would easily quadruple my 10-1 average kill/death ratio with half of the effort it takes now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

anarchy52
05-23-2005, 05:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
My favorite about certain flyers in the online community is when they call you a noob for flying a Spitfire, yet, if I was to fly a 109 or FW regularly, I would easily quadruple my 10-1 average kill/death ratio with half of the effort it takes now.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ROFL

OldMan____
05-23-2005, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
I have no need to go as far as HayateAce, but one thing that is laughable about the 109 is the amazing mid-air braking ability of the plane using prop pitch and zero throttle.

I LMAO everytime a 109 is diving at over 700km/h, slows to almost an instant stop and then accelerates again to infinity and beyoooooooond. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My favorite about certain flyers in the online community is when they call you a noob for flying a Spitfire, yet, if I was to fly a 109 or FW regularly, I would easily quadruple my 10-1 average kill/death ratio with half of the effort it takes now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I turn because I can. B and Z is a choice for me, not a requirement for my online survival, like most B and Zers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but by my test that I posted a few weeks ago, 109 is not even the best braker on its weight category. The spit brakes almost equal only a little bit worse, while the 190 and p38 brakes better than both (specially the 190 in a turn where a little buit rufdder trick and you can ride your stall from 500 to 300 in no time). The P51 also breakes about same as 109 in game.

So please stop just forwarding all the " FB legends" that we read about everyday on this forum.

Xnomad
05-23-2005, 06:03 PM
In response to the 'flying on rails' comments and that this game is already difficult for newcomers I would like to add this:

When I started flying here the game was called IL2 and take offs were bloody difficult. In fact if you turned an Emil even an inch to either side after takeoff it would stall and hit the ground, gaining speed was after take off took forever.

Much later on I had a friend, a complete flightsim newbie, takeoff a 109 first time with no trouble at all and I was impressed. Then I realised that we were playing FB and not the original IL2, I thought I had gotten better with the advent of FB but it turns out that FB was toned down considerably to make it easier for newbies. I'm not saying IL2 was more realistic, I have never flown a real 109 but it certainly was a lot harder.

Taking off in a real 109 you have to keep the tail on the ground until you are fast enough that the rudders respond in the airflow and you are able to turn, then you lift the tail. The rudders in FB respond at very low speeds and takeoffs are therefore very easy. Taking off in the Mustang was the same, if you lifted the tail too early you couldn't steer the plane and you would crash on takeoff.

I would like to see stuff like this implemented. All that crashing when a map loads up in multiplayer is funny with people not using runways properly, it will be interesting to see what effect difficult takeoffs will have on these impatient people, I'm guessing we are going to lose some players in the community unless the difficulty is scalable.

VW-IceFire
05-23-2005, 06:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucius_Esox:
Ermm,
Just curious, wasn't the Spitfire just a little uber in real life as well when engine power was equal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well yeah it sort of was. The Spitfire in all variations was fast, manueverable, turned extremely well, and yet also possessed good firepower and a low drag wing. It was a brilliant design. I think German pilots probably called it "uber" during the war too. However, the Spitfire was not long legged...it was quite short range really. So thats its downfall...excellent fighter at the expense of range.

The one in game displays an odd propensity to not overheat...it also has an impressive zoom climb and amazing energy retention abilities that it probably shouldn't have. But the 109 and Yak have it too...so its "noob" status is generally perpetuated by a certain crowd only and its spread.

To be perfectly honest, there were "uber" threads and whining about the Spitfire before we even had it in the game. Thats how feared it was and still is.

Bull_dog_
05-23-2005, 06:40 PM
In real life...Spit Mk IX vs Bf 109G6... the spit was faster at all altitudes, climbed better and was as good if not a better turner. Roll rate at slow speeds went to the 109 but that was it. The Spit Mk IX vs Fw-190A5...spit was faster at high altitude, turned much better and climbed much better. Fw had roll rate advantage at all speeds.

The ingame plane seems pretty accurate to me. It was a superior plane in real life in terms of dogfighting and those key attributes listed above. It wasn't particularly good in the dive and its range was very limited, other than that it was the definative fighter.

Oddly enough I love chewing up spits in my Fw190 and if I get mad at enemy 190's and 109's I jump in a spit to chew them up... hmmmm....I wonder what that means? (rhetorical question lined with sarcasm)

How this thread turned into a spit bashing thread I don't know...but I like the Fw series, Bf109 series and Spit series as is...don't change a thing! I fly them all too and I win and lose in them all as well.

Bull_dog_
05-23-2005, 06:44 PM
I'd add one last thing to anyone who doesnt' think the Spit overheats...they don't fly it properly.

Take the spit to 25,000-30,000 ft and report back.

There have been many changes to the overheat model of the spit over the various patches...at low and medium alt it does seem overheat resistant but at high alt you can't keep it from overheating...also it gets hotter in a dive and runs cooler in a high speed climb.

I see these posts from people who obviously don't fly the thing and they are just wrong. Go get some air time in the Mk IX before posting.

SlickStick
05-23-2005, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldMan____:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
I have no need to go as far as HayateAce, but one thing that is laughable about the 109 is the amazing mid-air braking ability of the plane using prop pitch and zero throttle.

I LMAO everytime a 109 is diving at over 700km/h, slows to almost an instant stop and then accelerates again to infinity and beyoooooooond. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

My favorite about certain flyers in the online community is when they call you a noob for flying a Spitfire, yet, if I was to fly a 109 or FW regularly, I would easily quadruple my 10-1 average kill/death ratio with half of the effort it takes now. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

I turn because I can. B and Z is a choice for me, not a requirement for my online survival, like most B and Zers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but by my test that I posted a few weeks ago, 109 is not even the best braker on its weight category. The spit brakes almost equal only a little bit worse, while the 190 and p38 brakes better than both (specially the 190 in a turn where a little buit rufdder trick and you can ride your stall from 500 to 300 in no time). The P51 also breakes about same as 109 in game.

So please stop just forwarding all the " FB legends" that we read about everyday on this forum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting, as I've never tested all planes for this feature. Hmmmm, then the K4's I see pulling this are engaging more space-time continuum than prop pitch. Good to know. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Come to think of it...the only time I B and Z nowadays is when I'm drinking and flying. Any other time, it's like Retirement Home flying to me, lol.

Staying high, bouncing ez prey with one or two MK 108s from my K4 or A9 for about 10 kills a sortie and I'm sound as a pound until bedtime. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

OldMan____
05-23-2005, 08:18 PM
The only reason why you dont see Spit MK IX c doing so is because they don´t need it.. they can just pull all stick up at any speed without any stall fear and just cahnge directions like you roll a coin. And then again they can regain theier speed hell of fast. As the test Me Ice and pingu stated.. Spitfire accelerate FASTER than 109 at lower speeds.


German planes may decelerate faster if they force a flat wing against wing during a pre stall, but that happend only because you can over turn these planes... I NEVEr EVER was able to turn too much in a SPIT MK IX c. Good reason to poeple find it uber.. is SO easy to get 90% of its capacity that EVERY player flies at 90% or more of its capacity. Few get to 100%... ok true.. but when you compare to FW.. most pilts fly it a 30% of its capacity because it is hell harder to make it fly well. Anything more rude you do with it and it will trouw you at ground

SlickStick
05-23-2005, 08:30 PM
Totally agreed. The FW has a much different FM than a Spitfire, as it had in RL as well. The Spitfire was always known for it's ease of flight, superior maneuverability and wicked hispanos on those so equipped.

The FW-A9 is great in the vertical, is d*a*m*n*ed fast, a fair to good turner with properly employed roll and rudder and the armament of the A9 is wicked bad (read as mk108 wingpods). However, it'll snap stall in a heartbeat and "throw you towards the ground" if not careful.

I always fly any plane I'm in to it's strengths and attempt to always avoid it's weaknesses. I fly LW planes the way they were meant to be flown unless I'm in an early 109 E through G2. Then, I like to T and B a little, but try not to linger in one loop too long. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RedDeth
05-23-2005, 08:33 PM
first off. old man the 109 decelerates waaay faster than a spit. ive flown this game since beta days and i promise i can always get you to over shoot your spit if im in a 109. aint no way a spit can slow down like that. then you hit manual prop and you rocket forward.

second spits are not supposed to overheat. they were one of the best planes in war for that and above 6000 meters a spit should never overheat no matter what.

also oldman i disagree with the spit regaining speed fast. not compared to a 109 or LA7. plenty of planes have better acceleration than the spit. the spit is a VERY slow plane. try chasing a dora in your spit. dude it aint gonna catch a dora. nor a K4. Unless you got serious E advantage

and most 109s if you work that prop pitch like a fiend from low speed aint no spit gonna accelerate close to it. you obviously just fly those 109s on auto prop pitch only. which means you have NO IDEA what a 109 can do in this game

SlickStick
05-23-2005, 09:32 PM
Now, there's a first....Red and I agree on something. Good post, ya quackhead.

Look at this poor 109 Pilot....he thinks he's flying away from the Jugs as he's about to get .50s up the keester.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://img50.echo.cx/img50/5435/warrior23big4qc.jpg

Reprinted from the PF screenshots thread. A BanaBob original. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

To get back on topic, I imagine we'll have to tweak our stick inputs a bit, work the stall envelope a little tighter and fly a little more true to life, instead of slinging the planes around the sky like trapeze artists. I don't think it will ever go back to the days of IL-2 difficulty, however.

Tiger27
05-23-2005, 09:50 PM
As a 109 jock since beta days I have to laugh at some of the allied pilots belief in the 109's uberness, the Spit is also far from uber, but its climb out of a turn is just wrong.
No matter how well you fly a G2 at the moment your at a disadvantage because the Spit 9 can just soak up the damage from the rubber bullets the LW supplied us with, apparently a new stock of real 20mm is due to arrive with the next patch and then we will really hear the allied pilots start to whinge...I can hardly wait http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

RedDeth
05-23-2005, 10:31 PM
THE second a spit starts climbing out of a turn with a 109 on his six on manual prop pitch that spit will soon be turning again. or be in trouble. no spit can hang on its prop like a manual 109.

spits are great planes but they are not fast planes. and they cant climb like a monkey on fire either. nor hang on a prop vertical.

most often it comes down to pilot but with manual prop no spit can touch or keep up with or climb with or dive with or...well you get the point.

but the spit cannons are lasers out to .70 so that evens the field quite a bit.

RedDeth
05-23-2005, 10:34 PM
slickstick that is one of my favorite prints. that is by john shaw and is called the warrior and the wolfpack. its gunther rall getting chased down by hub zemke. its a historical scene. he gets shot down by them but he shot down two jugs earlier. those four get him though. he bails and survives.


it looks to be redone to look photo realistic on background by some body for a screenshot type pic look to it.

drose01
05-23-2005, 11:23 PM
To get back on the original topic...

(I should have known better then to comment on the "uberness" of any current planes!)

I heard online from someone who said he has played the patch that:

-the P51 did 645 km/hr "on the deck"

-MG 121s are devastating

-the P38 has more power and no torque

Sounds like some power could be shifting.

Badsight.
05-23-2005, 11:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xnomad:
In response to the 'flying on rails' comments and that this game is already difficult for newcomers I would like to add this: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i know i know

FB-PF is a easy game

it flies easily

stalls are not hard to control

this game plays like the planes are on rails

Il2 Sturmovik is a lot harder to play , FB is easy to play

Badsight.
05-23-2005, 11:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Yes, they can still be killed and I regularly do shoot them down in my trusty 190A-6. However, when I Boom a hard turning spit only to see it complete it's 360 and succeed in following me up in the zoom incredulity is all I am left with. Yes, in all likelihood that particular pilot is really good, but I DEFY him to be as good in another more accurately modelled aircraft like the Spit V.

BTW, I have flown the spit myself several times and I have never been shot down once in a fair contest, (read CoE or almost so) regardless of the opponent's mount. Now unless I magically transform into this uber-pilot every time I set foot in a spitfire IX, something's off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Jetbuff , if you test them , you will see the Bf109 7 Spitfire perform basically the same

only difference is that the Bf retains speed only slightly not-as-good as the Spit

if people would only do some testing instead of posting what they see happen in a DF then there would be 90% less complaining

the Spits , any mk will overheat

the Spits will not keep speed looping , hard turning , hard climbing or whatever hard manouver you wish to call , they bleed it just as every other plane does

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY ! :

you CANNOT do a Hard Turn & keep speed , if you passed and your over 500 kmh & you keep speed , he CANNOT catch you , its impossible

Jetbuff
05-24-2005, 12:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SlickStick:
Well, first of all, a Mk. V is nowhere near as fast as a Mk. IX. So, performing the same energy maneuver in a Mk. V vs. a Mk. IX is not really a fair comparison. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How stupid do you think I am? Of course it's not directly comparable, but it's performance is just more plausible against it's contemporaries.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Secondly, there are undoubtedly ways to follow a B and Zer back-up into his zoom climb. The smart Spit pilot who is below the 109 keeps his speed up as fast as possible, performing shallow dives and slight degree turns to maintain energy for when the B and Zer is diving on them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh get off it! I clearly stated that they performed a full 360, i.e. continued their break turn all the way around. Now considering I boomed them it means I had positive closure, i.e. we were at least at equal speed if I wasn't faster, and yet they are able to bleed less energy in 270 degrees+ of turn than I lose in the transition from dive to climb. Then the superior (and quite questionable imo) climb-rate of the spit takes over and they climb in a way almost reminiscent of the K-4's warped climb a few iterations back.

If you don't think there's something off about the Spit IX, I doubt there's anything anyone can say to convince you.

Badsight.
05-24-2005, 01:07 AM
K-4's climb has been the same to 6K since FB v1.1

like i said , you cannot pass a plane at equal speed & then turn hard & then catch him if he stays the same hi-speed as when he passed you . . . . . . .

regardless of plane

. . . . . . . unless he slows down

just test it , you & a freind , do a head-on merge , FW-190 A6/8 & Spitfire Mk9

400 Kmh then you & the Spit firewall it as soon as the merge happens

you in the FW or your freind

have the Spitfire do a hard turn & chase & have the FW-190 fly onwards

its no contest

Jetbuff
05-24-2005, 01:13 AM
Fasutnik and Tiger are on the money:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tiger27:
the Spit is also far from uber, but its climb out of a turn is just wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There's simply something very disturbing in how the Spit IX transitions from a hard turn into the vertical. If I could put my finger on it I would have sent a track to Oleg.

As for the rather childish remarks about "luft-whining" I find them pathetic.

(a) My record on the issues speaks for itself. I have whined just as vehemently on both sides of the fence! I'm an omni-whiner! :P

(b) I did not post a whine, I commented in response to SeaFire's post. usually I wouldn't have bothered but I find SeaFire to be rational/objective and like I said we usually agree on most things.

(c) Nowhere did I claim spitfire uberness, I noted something were off is all - the top speed was argued to death and the consensus was that while it was accurate on the deck it got a bit higher than it should be at altitudes. Look in ORR for the original thread. As for the E-bleed thing, that's my best guess for the strange way it seems to transition out of the turn into a climb.

(d) This "off" behaviour's main effect is to periodically destroy my sense of immersion as I mouth the inevitable "WTF?" when I see one of those questionable transitions. i.e. it does not make the Spit uber, at least not uber enough to pose an insurmountable challenge for me personally.

(e) I fully realize the real Spit IX was very good, and compares favourably with the in-game version - EXCEPT in top-speeds at altitude and the fishy transition thing. I am not too familiar about the Spit IX's historical climb rate so I withdraw my earlier comments on this aspect.

Badsight.
05-24-2005, 01:15 AM
you realise the Spitfires Zoom ability is basically the same as the MW-50 Bf109s ?

Jetbuff
05-24-2005, 01:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
Ka's climb has been the same to 6K since FB v1.1

like i said , you cannot pass a plane at equal speed & then turn hard & then catch him if he stays the same hi-speed as when he passed you . . . . . . .

regardless of plane

. . . . . . . unless he slows down

just test it , you & a freind , do a head-on merge , FW-190 A6/8 & Spitfire Mk9

400 Kmh then you & the Spit firewall it as soon as the merge happens

you in the FW or your freind

have the Spitfire do a hard turn & chase & have the FW-190 fly onwards

its no contest </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Read my comments one more time and stop trying to teach me the basics of flying, I've been doing so since the demo and long before that in other sims.

What you are describing is no contest because the 190 is accelerating level. Try the same but with the 190 approaching in a shallow dive and then transitioning into a 40?+ climb. Then watch as the Spit reverses and claws up after you forcing you to go level to extend.

It won't catch you if you're smart and, like me, always fly with a wingman. If anything it's a death-wish for the spit driver if you have a competent wingman. But, it 's definitely one of those things that make you shake your head in amazement, just like the fact that the later 109's have a lower stall-speed than the earlier models, or the G-2 out-turning the F-4.

Badsight.
05-24-2005, 01:22 AM
no Spitfire can climb with the FW-190

test it

dont go on degrees of climb but by speed you can hold

climb both at 400 kmh & watch yourself extend

this is the FW way , high speed always , never slowing , why slow down if you suddenly are in the Spits realm , IE low speed

you might have been flying for a long time , but your plane knowledge is Lacking

EDIT : speed

Jetbuff
05-24-2005, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
you might have been flying for a long time , but your plane knowledge is Lacking </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unlike you of course you uber-sexy-macho-man!

This is pointless... good day.

Badsight.
05-24-2005, 01:48 AM
well nice way to cop-out , please leave your character assumptions to yourself & stay on topic


what part of this discussion is pointless ? how about you instead go test . your unwillingness to do so is the pointless part of this discussion .

if you wish to not understand the planes you like to fly , thats not my problem , just dont post like they are worse or better than they really are without being willing to back-up your claims in some way

Skalgrim
05-24-2005, 02:48 AM
that is not full compare, g6 dive better, accelerate better, and zoomclimb better as spit9, that is enough to win battle, big wings from spit make many drag, not good for dive accelerate and zoomclimb.

galland has 109e prefer for spit1 only because better accelerate, dive and zoomclimb, good pilots with good aiming skill need only this advantage.

that is base 109 count as very good vertical manenuver plane, too very maneuver yaks could not match vertical maneuver from 109, and yaks was better vertical as spits, say the russian test.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
In real life...Spit Mk IX vs Bf 109G6... the spit was faster at all altitudes, climbed better and was as good if not a better turner. Roll rate at slow speeds went to the 109 but that was it. The Spit Mk IX vs Fw-190A5...spit was faster at high altitude, turned much better and climbed much better. Fw had roll rate advantage at all speeds.

The ingame plane seems pretty accurate to me. It was a superior plane in real life in terms of dogfighting and those key attributes listed above. It wasn't particularly good in the dive and its range was very limited, other than that it was the definative fighter.

Oddly enough I love chewing up spits in my Fw190 and if I get mad at enemy 190's and 109's I jump in a spit to chew them up... hmmmm....I wonder what that means? (rhetorical question lined with sarcasm)

How this thread turned into a spit bashing thread I don't know...but I like the Fw series, Bf109 series and Spit series as is...don't change a thing! I fly them all too and I win and lose in them all as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

carguy_
05-24-2005, 04:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight.:
no Spitfire can climb with the FW-190

test it

dont go on degrees of climb but by speed you can hold

climb both at 400 kmh & watch yourself extend

this is the FW way , high speed always , never slowing , why slow down if you suddenly are in the Spits realm , IE low speed

you might have been flying for a long time , but your plane knowledge is Lacking

EDIT : speed </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Angle of climb?If you ask me I have never seen a Spitfire fall behind in a climb.With G10 alone.

OldMan____
05-24-2005, 05:50 AM
Both my statements about acceleration and break are not observation on game. Are from TESTING, testing like the one Pingu, me and Ice made few weeks ago.


Spit out accelerates 109 up to a certain speed , after that 109 start gaining on him. That is a FACT!!! And does not matter if you fly it since IL2 1.0.. this game is not IL 1.o anymore...


Acceleration from 300 to 400 kph at sea level.

109 K4 13.75 seconds
FW190 A4 14.1 seconds
Spilt 9 LF 12.4 seconds
La & 9.9 seconds
P51D 13.0 seconds


These are TEST DATA. Not subjective view. From 300 to 500, things change, but only then.

109K4 41,1 seconds
190A4 59.6 seconds
Spit 9 LF- 1,20 minutes
LA7 34,3 seconds
P51D 51,1 seconds

Deaceleration In 109 is NOT that bigger than SPIT. Tested again on controled online test. The 109 will make you overshoot only if you are &lt; 50 meters behind him. That was made in a controled test where both planes started deacelerating on instant comand. If you wait to notice that 109 is deaceleratign to just then start your break process.. of course you won't be able to break with him.


Also remember... I am talking about 109G6 Late.. a 43 plane compared to Spit MK iXc a 43 plane. That is the time frame where Spit rules. If you comapre K4 obviouly Spit won't have much advantages (as is logical). Spit 14 will be great for this game, but only is its increased weigt is treated in reasonable way. The weight increase from Spit 9 to 14 is much higher than from 190 A4 to 190A8 and the FW FEELS heavier in game.. Many people fear SPIT wont receive same treatment and will continue feeling like a SPIT V. If that happens.. I wil have no choice but to call it über, but if it has correct heavier behavior, than it will be a great addition to game.


Proper BnZ ina FW190 can be devastating.. but is NOT that easy as some say. Because if he sees you you don't have much chance to get a Spit in strong evasive maneuvers. Playing with Spitfire MK IX online I was shot down only 2 times (of course I play much les than with 190), because it if easy to turn the tables ina combat with it. Why? Becasue you can do anything you want without fear of satling or getting to slow. If you loose speed to &lt;300 just relaxstick and superior Spit IX acceleration will bring you back to 400 kph very fast.

SlickStick
05-24-2005, 05:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RedDeth:
slickstick that is one of my favorite prints. that is by john shaw and is called the warrior and the wolfpack. its gunther rall getting chased down by hub zemke. its a historical scene. he gets shot down by them but he shot down two jugs earlier. those four get him though. he bails and survives.


it looks to be redone to look photo realistic on background by some body for a screenshot type pic look to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I'm pretty sure (as I didn't go back to the original post in the PF screenshots thread yet) that BanaBob mentioned using a real-life scenario for that ScreenShot Art. The planes are from the game, but I believe the background is a photo.

He's a master of ScreenShot Art....be sure. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

SlickStick
05-24-2005, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
Yes, they can still be killed and I regularly do shoot them down in my trusty 190A-6. However, when I Boom a hard turning spit only to see it complete it's 360 and succeed in following me up in the zoom incredulity is all I am left with. Yes, in all likelihood that particular pilot is really good, but I DEFY him to be as good in another more accurately modelled aircraft like the Spit V. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You had made a direct compare to a IX and a V performing the same maneuver against a FW-A6. I merely pointed out that the IX could retain much more E out of the maneuver you describe than a Mk. V. Also, since a Mk. V is the better turner of the two, it's easier to dodge a diving FW-A6. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jetbuff:
If you don't think there's something off about the Spit IX, I doubt there's anything anyone can say to convince you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I haven't flown the IX regularly since the Mk. VIII came along. It's interesting that your focus is on the Mk. IX, when I feel that overall, except for a little less speed at altitude, the Mk. VIII is superior to the Mk. IX at low-to-medium altitudes (1000m to 3500m).

Do you feel the error in E-retention is only the IXc or IXe or all IXs models and you feel that the Mk. Vs and VIIIs are more accurately modelled in this aspect?

Jetbuff
05-25-2005, 01:19 PM
SlickStick, unfortunately I cannot tell the difference between an IXe and IXc from external view. However, forumites who have tested this seem to have reached a consensus that the problem appears to be isolated to the IXc. I myself am not even sure what the issue really is, I just noticed that Spit IX's appear to be capable of pulling into the vertical from an E-state that would not allow any other plane to do so.

The VIII I have no qualms with at this time, a I have neither flown it or flown against it extensively. It does suffer from the disappearing wings at certain LOD's though. (a bug it shares with the Seafire and some of the 190's; the latter tend to lose some of their external side fuselage at certain ranges)

If I knew for certain what exactly was tripping my BS meter wrt the Spit IXc I would have experimented and forwarded the information to Oleg and the community. As it stands, people far better than me at testing have failed to identify the issue. Suspect E-bleed is my best guess, but it is only that, a guess. I'd love to find out for sure what the problem is because I love the lines of the Spit IX and would like to fly it more often without feeling guilty about it.

I may fly for a Luftwaffe squad, but my interest is historical accuracy for the purpose of immersion, regardless of whether it places me at an advantage or disadvantage. I was one of the first to complain that it made no sense for the La's and yak's to break up at a speed only marginally above their top level speeds back in FB 1.0(?) and I still think the G-2 turns a bit too optimistically. E, good SA and teamwork are much bigger determinants of success in air combat than the FM of an aircraft.

carguy_
05-25-2005, 04:32 PM
Just because an aircraft was historically a superb one doesn`t mean it can pull 180deg and follow me in climb.Be it spiral,zoom or substained.

Jetbuff
05-25-2005, 05:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by carguy_:
Just because an aircraft was historically a superb one doesn`t mean it can pull 180deg and follow me in climb.Be it spiral,zoom or substained. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Precisely... I just tested the spit in QMB, at 100% fuel, default + WEP, it will never drop below 260kph in a sustained turn. (staying between 270-280 90% of the time) Now if that isn't questionable E-bleed I don't know what is!

BTW, the above means that unless you jerk the stick you cannot stall the IXc ('43 model, haven't tested any others yet) at all in a level turn... how crazy is that? Oh, and at 270-280kph you can actually pull up into a vertical frickin' loop... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

SeaFireLIV
05-25-2005, 07:03 PM
Hmm, well. I didn`t want to get to get the good folks at each other`s throats here. I was just saying it the way I see it that`s all. I respect jetbuff`s view on this as well as Badsight`s.

ploughman
05-26-2005, 01:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Precisely... I just tested the spit in QMB, at 100% fuel, default + WEP, it will never drop below 260kph in a sustained turn. (staying between 270-280 90% of the time) Now if that isn't questionable E-bleed I don't know what is!

BTW, the above means that unless you jerk the stick you cannot stall the IXc ('43 model, haven't tested any others yet) at all in a level turn... how crazy is that? Oh, and at 270-280kph you can actually pull up into a vertical frickin' loop... Big Grin </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Interesting, could a real Spit IX do that or you just assuming it couldn't? I have no idea. I've had a look but none of my reference really helps, anyone know?

Jetbuff
05-26-2005, 06:29 AM
While I doubt any plane could maintain such a high speed in a sustained max turn Ploughman, such data is hard to come by. I look forward to seeing some data either way.