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Airmail109
11-04-2007, 07:44 AM
Full roll cages, racing seats and harnesses are more dangerous on the street? Yes, No? Discuss. Also feel free to discuss car safety in general.

Ive been getting into track days recently so this is of interest to me. I heard some guys discussing how roll cages even with harnesses are dangerous to use on the street without a helmet. Persononally I think its a myth.

Coincidently Ive also just had two mates
killed in road accidents, one rolled over after avoiding a deer and the other lads seatbelt failed when he met a coach on the wrong side of the road http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The lesson here guys, dont buy a **** car If your budget can afford it. After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage (not a substitute for the real thing if your doing any track racing just more practical) and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp!

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 07:44 AM
Full roll cages, racing seats and harnesses are more dangerous on the street? Yes, No? Discuss. Also feel free to discuss car safety in general.

Ive been getting into track days recently so this is of interest to me. I heard some guys discussing how roll cages even with harnesses are dangerous to use on the street without a helmet. Persononally I think its a myth.

Coincidently Ive also just had two mates
killed in road accidents, one rolled over after avoiding a deer and the other lads seatbelt failed when he met a coach on the wrong side of the road http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The lesson here guys, dont buy a **** car If your budget can afford it. After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage (not a substitute for the real thing if your doing any track racing just more practical) and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp!

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 07:47 AM
Huh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Huh? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

popular opinion has it that an unprotected head impact with Roll cage = trip to the hospital

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 07:53 AM
Headon with a coach? Somehow I doubt bars and headgear would've helped.

Sorry to hear about your friends.

Fritz

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Headon with a coach? Somehow I doubt bars and headgear would've helped.

Sorry to hear about your friends.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx Pirschy! Wasnt high speed (around 60mph total from what ive heard), no cockpit intrusion. Just a crappy 3-point seatbelt.

MEGILE
11-04-2007, 08:23 AM
I'm a big fan of swedish cars.

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 08:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
I'm a big fan of swedish cars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Weirdo http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

JG52Uther
11-04-2007, 08:29 AM
As most of my car journeys are sub 30mph these days I don't think its an issue.Drive sensibly and defensively is the best thing you can do.Whats the rush?

DrHerb
11-04-2007, 08:33 AM
This is why I use the B.M.W Bus Metro Walk http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 08:42 AM
yeah Uther, totally agree! If you want to go fast you should go to a track. Its other drivers who can be the worry. So I suppose then having a roll cage wouldnt be an issue without a helmet, any collision that would cause you to bang your head on the bars whilst wearing a harness would be anough to totally flatten an uncaged car im betting.

DrHerb yeah public transports a good idea. I try to use public transport as much as possible, but recently it looks I may have to be doing a fair bit of travelling. (Aviation engineering aprenteship) Would be brilliant if trains and busses were more reliable!

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 08:57 AM
Aimail, I know you are a young adult and no doubt your recent experiences with losing friends is weighing heavy on you. You can do all sorts of things to try to ensure your safety but there are just too many variables and possibilities.

It's better to make a moderate effort rather than fill your mind with negative thoughts and therefore missing out on a lot of the joys life brings. It's kinda like cutting of your nose to spite your face.

Death is a part of life and one of the few things you can truly count on. I suggest you find another way to deal with things. Think of it this way; wearing 20 condoms is pretty safe, but it won't feel so good. Besides that, they'll plug up your toilet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As we get older we lose more friends and loved ones. We don't get used to it. We just have the experience of dealing with it. My advice is to do what your friends would have wanted you to do; grieve a little, get on with life and cherish the moments.

Fritz

Monterey13
11-04-2007, 09:02 AM
A PADDED roll cage and harness would drastically improve your chances of survival in a roll-over.

But...working in vehicle extrication for 9 years now, with Fire and EMS, I'll say this.

If they need to cut you out of the car in a hurry, forget it. It could make it a lot harder for crews to get you out. Depends on the situation. "Jaws" will not cut through the tubing. A Sawzall or cutting blade would have to be used if the cage was bent, preventing your quick removal.

A good seatbelt, and a side and front airbag are your best bet in todays' world.

Injuries are not always external, either.
There are 3 impacts involved in a collision...
1. Vehicle impacts other object.
2.Your body impacts interior or belts/airbags.
3.Your organs impact the frame of your body.

Drive safe!!

XyZspineZyX
11-04-2007, 09:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Full roll cages, racing seats and harnesses are more dangerous on the street? Yes, No? Discuss. Also feel free to discuss car safety in general.

Ive been getting into track days recently so this is of interest to me. I heard some guys discussing how roll cages even with harnesses are dangerous to use on the street without a helmet. Persononally I think its a myth.

Coincidently Ive also just had two mates
killed in road accidents, one rolled over after avoiding a deer and the other lads seatbelt failed when he met a coach on the wrong side of the road http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The lesson here guys, dont buy a **** car If your budget can afford it. After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage (not a substitute for the real thing if your doing any track racing just more practical) and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh sure, rollcages and harnesses have a huge potential for causing injury on the street

Mostly becasue the guys and gals that have them on street cars are doing things on public roads that they shouldn't do

Oh yeah, 18 years of driving overpowered muscle cars under my belt, blah blah blah

As far as unprotected head hitting rollcage, been there done that, got knocked out from my car getting hit T-bone from a van that blew a stop sign, and I got to take a nap courtesy of the convertible top frame above and to the left of my unprotected head

Out for a few minutes. I'm sure that story explains lots of things to people here

The impact with your head isn't really the issue. It's being unconscious behind the wheel of a moving car that's kinda the bigger problem

As usual, rollcages and harnesses aren't the problem. It's the drivers that are the problem

Sorry to hear about your friends. I buried two before I or they were 27 years old. One freak accident, one murder

I'll give you advice about the car though. After being in a few pretty bad accidents, I've got to say that being prepared doesn't do squat. You can't react in time when you never see it coming. Wear your safety belt and make those in your car wear theirs

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Aimail, I know you are a young adult and no doubt your recent experiences with losing friends is weighing heavy on you. You can do all sorts of things to try to ensure your safety but there are just too many variables and possibilities.

It's better to make a moderate effort rather than fill your mind with negative thoughts and therefore missing out on a lot of the joys life brings. It's kinda like cutting of your nose to spite your face.

Death is a part of life and one of the few things you can truly count on. I suggest you find another way to deal with things. Think of it this way; wearing 20 condoms is pretty safe, but it won't feel so good. Besides that, they'll plug up your toilet. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

As we get older we lose more friends and loved ones. We don't get used to it. We just have the experience of dealing with it. My advice is to do what your friends would have wanted you to do; grieve a little, get on with life and cherish the moments.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah Pirschy, my question was mainly because Im thinking of getting a cheap to run car such as a Smart Roadster Coupe that I can use on trackdays (can get cheap specialist insurance with that...tiny engine lol) that I can use on the road but also because of recent events. Stuff like that doesnt bother me unless it means me trusting potential idiots. Cyclists and Motorbikers will know what I mean.

Monterery, great post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif Safe driving is the key, but in these two incidence they were driving below the speed limit.

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 09:31 AM
Ok, you got me. What's a "trackday car"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 09:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Ok, you got me. What's a "trackday car"? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something thats a little sportier than normal, usually light weight, spripped out and fun to drive. For use on open days at Race Circuits whilst being road legal

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 09:34 AM
Your original post is starting to make sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Your original post is starting to make sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry my thinkings always been a little disorganized so unless Im writing an essay my writing can be a little eratic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Full roll cages, racing seats and harnesses are more dangerous on the street? Yes, No? Discuss. Also feel free to discuss car safety in general.

Ive been getting into track days recently so this is of interest to me. I heard some guys discussing how roll cages even with harnesses are dangerous to use on the street without a helmet. Persononally I think its a myth.

Coincidently Ive also just had two mates
killed in road accidents, one rolled over after avoiding a deer and the other lads seatbelt failed when he met a coach on the wrong side of the road http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

The lesson here guys, dont buy a **** car If your budget can afford it. After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage (not a substitute for the real thing if your doing any track racing just more practical) and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh sure, rollcages and harnesses have a huge potential for causing injury on the street

Mostly becasue the guys and gals that have them on street cars are doing things on public roads that they shouldn't do

Oh yeah, 18 years of driving overpowered muscle cars under my belt, blah blah blah

As far as unprotected head hitting rollcage, been there done that, got knocked out from my car getting hit T-bone from a van that blew a stop sign, and I got to take a nap courtesy of the convertible top frame above and to the left of my unprotected head

Out for a few minutes. I'm sure that story explains lots of things to people here

The impact with your head isn't really the issue. It's being unconscious behind the wheel of a moving car that's kinda the bigger problem

As usual, rollcages and harnesses aren't the problem. It's the drivers that are the problem

Sorry to hear about your friends. I buried two before I or they were 27 years old. One freak accident, one murder

I'll give you advice about the car though. After being in a few pretty bad accidents, I've got to say that being prepared doesn't do squat. You can't react in time when you never see it coming. Wear your safety belt and make those in your car wear theirs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sucks doesnt it. Glad you survived your crash though! Yeah as with most things it boils down to luck.

Pirschjaeger
11-04-2007, 09:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
....my writing can be a little eratic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like my understanding. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

VW-IceFire
11-04-2007, 10:49 AM
Your best bet is to check the safety ratings for each car and select based on that and the features available. In North America one of the most affordable cars with a high crash test rating is the 2006-2008 (so far) Honda Civic...5 star and I've seen some accident reports which are very impressive considering the type of vehicle it was hit by and the speed involved. I'm also expecting the new Toyota Corolla for 2009 (I think everyone else in the world already has this one) to get an awesome rating.

Don't need an expensive car to have a safe one. Or a large vehicle for that matter. Some larger vehicles (like some of the previous gen F-150s) score badly in crash test and roll over tests.

Some of the new Chevys and Fords are starting to really pick up the pace too for safety especially. According to the automotive press the new Malibu for 2008 scores better than the Camry for things like stability in hard maneuvering. Lots of improvements on most new cars but its worth researching and checking the ratings.

Kongo Otto
11-04-2007, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Headon with a coach? Somehow I doubt bars and headgear would've helped.

Sorry to hear about your friends.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx Pirschy! Wasnt high speed (around 60mph total from what ive heard), no cockpit intrusion. Just a crappy 3-point seatbelt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those "crappy" 3-Point seat belt saved my life
at a Autobahn accident 8 years ago.
Iam still glad i had it put on.

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kongo Otto:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Headon with a coach? Somehow I doubt bars and headgear would've helped.

Sorry to hear about your friends.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx Pirschy! Wasnt high speed (around 60mph total from what ive heard), no cockpit intrusion. Just a crappy 3-point seatbelt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those "crappy" 3-Point seat belt saved my life
at a Autobahn accident 8 years ago.
Iam still glad i had it put on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah of course, they are definitely a huge step up from not wearing one. I just don't trust them lol...especially on any car over 8 years old which quite often have dodgey locking systems or clips, it would be nice if someone could design a belt more like a harness but easier to use. I suppose most people like comfort though!

Stiletto-
11-04-2007, 12:59 PM
If 5 point harnesses weren't safe, they wouldn't put them in high-end sportscars instead of lap belts. As far as the roll cage goes, this will dramtically improve structural rigidty and less flex in the corners, very good for the track and a safety necessity obviously. As far as the street goes, I wonder if a 5 point harness would keep you in place a bit better as to not lug you in the direction of the bar. The cage should have foam padding around it where it's close to the driver anyways, which would greatly help if your body impacts it, all the race cars have padding on the roll cage these days.

na85
11-04-2007, 02:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
I'm a big fan of swedish cars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Swedish cars FTW!! I drive a Saab 900 Turbo (http://static.flickr.com/74/206468284_9aaf3ee24d_b.jpg)

han freak solo
11-04-2007, 03:04 PM
Unfortunately, car makers won't install racing 5-point harnesses in regular everyday cars partly due to restriction of movement and mostly due to the proliferation of airbags.

You ever notice in a typical street car with a 3-point seat belt, that it locks up tight sometimes right when you're trying to reach something at the dash board? Garage door opener, gate card, ID badge, etc. It's rather annoying, regardless of how safe you might be. That's what I mean by restriction of movement comparable to a 5-point harness.

I too have been in a few car wrecks and a few motorcycle wrecks. One car wreck cut my face and head bad enough to nearly amputate my nose. I could see it hanging below my right eye and that made me worry a bit. I didn't have on my seatbelt in that one and it almost cost me.

I guess the best anyone can do is drive with some common sense, wear your seat belt, and expect that all the other cars out there are going to hit you. Even then, if you drive enough miles in a lifetime, a person is bound to be in a least one accident. Hopefully, it won't be a bad one.

Spinnetti
11-04-2007, 03:09 PM
I've used harnesses on the street.

Roll cages are just plain dangerous unless you'll wear a helmet too - a roll cage (I assume you mean cage, not hoop) will dash your brains out in an even minor hit - heck, I've whacked my head on them just getting the car on the trailer.

Please don't have a cage on a street car - you won't live long. (PS, I road race, do track days with purpose built cars and have fast sports cars too)

stathem
11-04-2007, 03:24 PM
Amail, I used to road rally. We has stage prepped cars but since the rallies were on public roads we weren't allowed helmets.

First and most important thing is a decent competition seat and 5 or 6 point harnesses. Get the seat as low as you can and still be able to drive.

Then you can think about a cage; but as has been said, make sure you pad it well.

Spend money on your brakes, suspension and engine - in that order

I've had a few big ones but never known me or my driver to knock ourselves out. Worst I ever had was in a Lotus Sunbeam, inexperienced driver got a slapper on up in the North Yorkshire moors at a ton+. I was sore for along time. That had no safety equipment in it. I went out and paid for a cage and harnesses for my regular driver a month later, with my first proper paycheck (I'd just started a new job)

Have fun! That's the main thing.

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spinnetti:
I've used harnesses on the street.

Roll cages are just plain dangerous unless you'll wear a helmet too - a roll cage (I assume you mean cage, not hoop) will dash your brains out in an even minor hit - heck, I've whacked my head on them just getting the car on the trailer.

Please don't have a cage on a street car - you won't live long. (PS, I road race, do track days with purpose built cars and have fast sports cars too) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting, thx for the heads up! There is one company here the UK that build race approved cages, where you can specify a build that puts more room between your head and the cage. Really expensive though. Hmmmmm

Yeah Stathem harnesses and a good seat are a must from what I gather! Rallyings nuts lol, love to watch it on TV and wouldn't mind doing a bit. But I don't ever feel like being one of the spetators hehehe.

stathem
11-04-2007, 03:51 PM
Oh got to say, in nearly 50 years of Road rallying in the UK, with most of those cars caged up down the years, and over some of the most challenging roads in the whole of England and Wales, only one person was ever killed - and that was on the Isle of Man.

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 03:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Oh got to say, in nearly 50 years of Road rallying in the UK, with most of those cars caged up down the years, and over some of the most challenging roads in the whole of England and Wales, only one person was ever killed - and that was on the Isle of Man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for spectators http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Seriously, yeah the things you see the rally cars do...like literally falling off the side of a mountain...with the drivers coming out unscathed, are insane. Its just as Spinetti said, its probably a very good idea to wear a helmet with a cage. Which is kind of a pain if you intend for the car to be used on the street as well.

stathem
11-04-2007, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Oh got to say, in nearly 50 years of Road rallying in the UK, with most of those cars caged up down the years, and over some of the most challenging roads in the whole of England and Wales, only one person was ever killed - and that was on the Isle of Man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for spectators http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, well speccies can be f***in idiots sometimes. Good for putting you back on the road though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Seriously, yeah the things you see the rally cars do...like literally falling off the side of a mountain...with the drivers coming out unscathed, are insane. Its just as Spinetti said, its probably a very good idea to wear a helmet with a cage. Which is kind of a pain if you intend for the car to be used on the street as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I think you're confusing it with stage events (although I have been off the side of cliff over Trawsfynedd in a Mini - saved by the trees though)

The point I was making is that we weren't allowed helmets by law; but that I didn't know of any incidents. If you consider a properly designed cage for a competition saloon, it should have clearance for a helmet if your seating position is right; so without one you should be fine, noting that helmets can add a couple of inches to the size of your head.

Airmail109
11-04-2007, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stathem:
Oh got to say, in nearly 50 years of Road rallying in the UK, with most of those cars caged up down the years, and over some of the most challenging roads in the whole of England and Wales, only one person was ever killed - and that was on the Isle of Man. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for spectators http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, well speccies can be f***in idiots sometimes. Good for putting you back on the road though.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Seriously, yeah the things you see the rally cars do...like literally falling off the side of a mountain...with the drivers coming out unscathed, are insane. Its just as Spinetti said, its probably a very good idea to wear a helmet with a cage. Which is kind of a pain if you intend for the car to be used on the street as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, I think you're confusing it with stage events (although I have been off the side of cliff over Trawsfynedd in a Mini - saved by the trees though)

The point I was making is that we weren't allowed helmets by law; but that I didn't know of any incidents. If you consider a properly designed cage for a competition saloon, it should have clearance for a helmet if your seating position is right; so without one you should be fine, noting that helmets can add a couple of inches to the size of your head. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhh sorry Im a bit tired! Thanks! Points dually noted!

Road Rallying is bonkers in a good way. Spectators in the downhill races i used to enter were really stupid as well. If anyone wants some instruction on what not to do at a rally race go to youtube, and search for Rally + Spectator + Crash.

I've seen guys saved by those sorts of crashes before, weird to watch them fly off the end of a cliff and disapear into some trees. Only to see them walk up the side of a hill a couple of minutes later.

In a mini thats no mean feat lol

Monterey13
11-04-2007, 04:50 PM
Good racing seats have pads that protect your head. The harness helps keep you in the middle of the seat anyway, and you don't wanna build the cage that close.

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/sca-80-1606-66l_w.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/13thAFMonterey/kir-16831_w.jpg

WTE_Googly
11-04-2007, 05:03 PM
My old driving instructor said something very true.

"Buy a bigger car, and your more likely to 'win' in an accident"

True for ones personal safety, but what about the other poor *******...


I know what you mean Aimail, I lost a mate a few years ago who was 17, he was a formula ford driver when he pranged, which lead to compulsory neck brace clip thing for racing drivers here in NZ. Too bad someone had to die for this to come in.

Lost one or two people I know through accidents which didn't need to happen... Drivers are the problem, especially those who have the arrogence to drive drunk.

HotelBushranger
11-05-2007, 01:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"Buy a bigger car, and your more likely to 'win' in an accident"

True for ones personal safety, but what about the other poor *******.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno about that, theres a fair bit of evidence that 4WD's are pretty unstable and dangerous in a crash. But in a head on situation, especially with bull bar, yes the bigger car will come out on top.

ploughman
11-05-2007, 03:46 AM
Can't speak for Oz, but there aren't many situations in the UK where having bull bars on the front of your vehicle is appropriate or particularly socially responsible dressing.

It more or less guarantees that any rendezvous with a pedestrian/side impact with another vehicle is going to be like a visit from the Sopranos.

Twits in Chelsea tractors with shiny chrome bull-bars... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Not to criticise farmers and rhino wranglers and so on who have perfectly valid reasons for up-armouring their vehicles. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Blottogg
11-05-2007, 04:19 AM
My .02:

- 3 point belts aren't as good at holding you in place as a proper 5 point harness, but road cars are designed to protect the lowest common denominator. Given the poor seatbelt useage numbers here in the 'States, 5 point belts would lie in a wad on the floor of most cars. 3 point belts are a big improvement over lap belts, however.

- A car's safety features are designed to work as part of a whole. Airbags aren't very useful without seatbelts, for example. If you install a full cage, that may comprimise safety of the car by requiring the removal of side or curtain airbags.

- Those side/curtain airbags are there for a reason. If you think a 5 point harness will keep your noggin clear of the interior of the car, buckle in and try moving your head around. You'll probably be able to hit the side window, and maybe its frame as well. Now imagine a soccer mom in her SUV pushing the door in to help you make contact with your head. A full cage will help limit the intrusion, but at the cost of some initial intrusion just from its presence.

- Roll cages are good, as others have mentioned, but they too are meant to be used as part of a system. Merely padding the bars isn't a substitute for a helmet. The padding will protect your head getting in/out, but won't help much in a high speed collision. Your head gets moving too fast relative to the cage. You need something designed to cushion your head, not designed to cushion the cage.

FWIW, I've got a roll bar (not a full cage) on my Miata. It's a step up from a straight convertible safety-wise, but still isn't equal to the safety of a full coupe with a roof and additional airbags. And when I have taken it on the track, I've worn an open-face helmet, since I haven't de-activated the steering wheel airbag.

Blutarski2004
11-05-2007, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blottogg:
My .02:

- 3 point belts aren't as good at holding you in place as a proper 5 point harness, but road cars are designed to protect the lowest common denominator. Given the poor seatbelt useage numbers here in the 'States, 5 point belts would lie in a wad on the floor of most cars. 3 point belts are a big improvement over lap belts, however.

- A car's safety features are designed to work as part of a whole. Airbags aren't very useful without seatbelts, for example. If you install a full cage, that may comprimise safety of the car by requiring the removal of side or curtain airbags.

- Those side/curtain airbags are there for a reason. If you think a 5 point harness will keep your noggin clear of the interior of the car, buckle in and try moving your head around. You'll probably be able to hit the side window, and maybe its frame as well. Now imagine a soccer mom in her SUV pushing the door in to help you make contact with your head. A full cage will help limit the intrusion, but at the cost of some initial intrusion just from its presence.

- Roll cages are good, as others have mentioned, but they too are meant to be used as part of a system. Merely padding the bars isn't a substitute for a helmet. The padding will protect your head getting in/out, but won't help much in a high speed collision. Your head gets moving too fast relative to the cage. You need something designed to cushion your head, not designed to cushion the cage.

FWIW, I've got a roll bar (not a full cage) on my Miata. It's a step up from a straight convertible safety-wise, but still isn't equal to the safety of a full coupe with a roof and additional airbags. And when I have taken it on the track, I've worn an open-face helmet, since I haven't de-activated the steering wheel airbag. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... Nice to hear from you, B. It has been a while. Hope you're keeping well.

luftluuver
11-05-2007, 04:54 PM
When will head restraints be required to be worn by occupants in cars?

XyZspineZyX
11-05-2007, 05:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by luftluuver:
When will head restraints be required to be worn by occupants in cars? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never, hopefully

racing is different from commuting. A restraint would do several negative things to a driver's ability to look around, for instance when backing up. Not every good racing idea translates to everyday driving. Then there's the problem of where to attach the head restraint, unless each person has a helmet...and there's issues with that, too, in a passenger vehicle. Look up your local laws about wearing helmets inside a vehicle when you're driving. I'll bet you a dollar it's a thing you can get ticketed for

Airbags do their jobs well; side curtain ones are making the idea of head restraints in cars un-needed anyway

han freak solo
11-05-2007, 08:51 PM
Helmets would never happen in street cars due to the impediment of cell phone usage. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

BaldieJr
11-05-2007, 09:15 PM
http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/C1516441744/E20050830171054/Media/Black%20hot%20rod.jpg

Badsight-
11-06-2007, 12:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
lol , what a complete waste of money & time

& Double LOL at the smart car being considered "safe"

you are a worry aimail , how i wish the youth today had more commen sense & less "intelligence"

PS , if you are going to crash - Dont Drive! . . . . . . EVER!!!

Badsight-
11-06-2007, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monterey13:
A good seatbelt, and a side and front airbag are your best bet in todays' world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>HARDLY!

a working brain & open eyes are the best protection - & ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

basically , under 120 kmh is like a walking pace - its Far too SLOW to get "surprised" , or "caught unawares"

there are very FEW "accidents" . almost all wrecks are crashes . & a crash is an avoidable occurance

HotelBushranger
11-06-2007, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">a working brain & open eyes are the best protection - & ALWAYS HAVE BEEN </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For you maybe, but you can't count on the stupid drugged up idiots who use the roads.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">basically , under 120 kmh is like a walking pace - its Far too SLOW to get "surprised" , or "caught unawares" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's bollocks, 60kmh speed limits are implemented because of safety. You're so much more likely to accidentally hit someone going 120 than 60, and their (and your) survival rate plunges.

Badsight-
11-06-2007, 04:00 AM
yeah right

the whole point is to not hit Anything . . . . . EVER!

you dont hit things "accidentally" - you do it cause your not looking or your daydreaming

at 100 , things happen _slowly_

Blottogg
11-06-2007, 04:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Monterey13:
A good seatbelt, and a side and front airbag are your best bet in todays' world. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>HARDLY!

a working brain & open eyes are the best protection - & ALWAYS HAVE BEEN

basically , under 120 kmh is like a walking pace - its Far too SLOW to get "surprised" , or "caught unawares"

there are very FEW "accidents" . almost all wrecks are crashes . & a crash is an avoidable occurance </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsight, I also prefer the term "Crash" to "Accident". Accident implies no one was at fault, while the safety analogy of a "chain of events" contributing to the crash is usually more accurate, with one or more peoples' mistakes contributing. I also agree that passive safety measures should compliment defensive driving, not substitute for it. I still like the British driving instructor's comment that the driving world would be a lot safer if steering wheel airbags were replaced with large steel spikes. Driving as a divine right is one of my pet peeves, since it assumes that all comers deserve to drive, regardless of skill.

Having said all that, you to some degree put your trust in the abilities of others whenever you drive on public roads. I remember thinking to myself while driving along a two-lane road with a 45 mph speed limit... "there comes a point with oncoming traffic, that if he were to swerve towards me, I would be physically unable to avoid a collision." Shortly after this revelation, I was hit by a lost out-of-town driver in a rental, when he spotted the left he wanted at the last minute, and turned in front of me with about 100 feet of room. Both of us were doing 30 mph at the time, and even so I almost missed him. Still my right front hit his right rear hard enough to sheer off a couple of wheel studs and lug nuts.

As far as head restraints in passenger cars go, the biggest impediment would again be compliance. A single latch 3 point belt is too much of a bother for 20-50% of the driving populace, let alone a properly used HANS device.

Good to be heard, Blutarski. I've been around, if not so verbose. In only marginally related news, I finally took the plunge with a dedicated aftermarket ECU for the Miata, and the dyno says it's making 170 hp at the wheels now. Just in time for winter, yeah!

luftluuver
11-06-2007, 04:51 AM
Guys, my head restraint comment was made tongue in cheek.

Airbags are only good for the first collision.

Best thing I ever did was begin driving on a motorcycle. Teaches one defensive driving very quickly and has served me well on numerous occasions, car, truck and bike. I have only been in one collision in at least 800,000 miles of driving. An epileptic took a fit coming off a traffic light, put his foot to the floor in his Cuda and started swerving all over the road as I was approaching him (30mph zone). Ended as a side swipe because of defensive driving. This was pre airbag and it would have inflated before he hit the tree after going through/over a snow bank.

I really hate all these new safety gizmos and driving aids, like ABS, for they give drivers a false sense of security.

whiteladder
11-06-2007, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I really hate all these new safety gizmos and driving aids, like ABS, for they give drivers a false sense of security </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here`s my experience of this. A week after my 21st birthday I was driving home from work and had a huge car accident. Being a inexperienced driver I had braked too hard in wet conditions and skidded off the road and hit a tree. Luckily it was on a quiet country road and no other road users were involved.

I was driving a 1.1 litre Mk2 Ford Fiesta at the time, a compact car sold in the UK with very low horsepower. I hit the tree sideways at 50 mhp, the trunk of the tree was level with the front door post of the car. The car was literally wrapped around the tree like a banana, my knees being at the fulcrum of the bend. I shattered my right leg and had a open fracture of the tib/fib, damaged the nerves going to my left foot, the end of the gearstick sheared off and went through my left knee out the other side and into my right knee, impaling them and destroying the ligaments. I also broke my collar bone. It took the firebrigade 7 hours to cut me from the wreckage, and although I had lost almost a complete "full tank" of blood through the wounds in my legs I didn`t have any life threatening injures.
It took a year in hospital to learn to walk again and five operations to regain some mobility in my left foot.

But I consider myself lucky.... because about 2 years after I had my accident I moved house. I was stopped in my new street by a gentleman who turned out to be one of the firemen who had cut me free. We got chatting and he expressed surprise on how well I had recovered, with me saying I was lucky.He said I was indeed because he had been to another accident at the same spot a week later, involving another young motorist in a another Fiesta. This was almost identical to my car accept it was owned by what we term a "Boy Racer" in the UK. It had been lowered, had a tuned engine, body kit, racing seat, and a roll cage fitted. He said when they got to the scene the car look almost intact, the roll cage had prevented the car crushing like mine had. He said the young man was awake and didn`t seem to have a scratch on him and they were suprised to learn he had died on the way to hospital from internal bleeding.

Although I suffered some pretty nasty injuries I believe the car deforming as it did saved my life. Had it been fitted with a roll cage I`m not sure that I would have.

Monterey13
11-06-2007, 06:35 AM
You are very lucky. Almost always, when I roll up on a car wrapped around a tree/pole, there is a fatality. It's one of the worst wrecks you can be in.

Most fatalities I have seen are from T-bone type collisions. That is because it almost always causes a cervical spine injury, which usually results in death.

Badsight, no matter how aware you are, and how good your eyesight is, it cannot protect you from the other car coming into your lane at the last minute, and smashing you head-on. I've seen more of those than I want to.

I didn't always wear my seatbelt before I got into this line of work, but I have picked up enough lifeless bodies from roads, fields etc... that probably would have survived if they had remained inside the safety of the vehicles' structure, that I ALWAYS wear my seatbelt now...and always will. A local 16 year old girl died here last week when she was partially ejected in a roll-over incident, and the car continued to crush her exposed body with each roll. No seatbelt was worn. Still had to cut the car away from her to get her out, because she was entangled in the outer structure. She lived in critical condition for about 4 days until she passed.

There is nothing that will protect you 100%. You just have to be cautious and aware when driving, and hope your LUCK holds out.

FoxThree
11-06-2007, 08:38 AM
I have been flirting with a T1 cage in my old heap. I have gotten it over 170 mph quite a few times now. I asked a shop, Phoenix Performance, to do the rear half T1only so as to keep from having to climb over the bar to get in/ out ... that and the fact that they need to cut apart the doors for the side bars. They declined and for good reasons. Installing the cage would cause me to lose my dead pedal, ease of entry/ egress, door panels, SA and cockpit mobility. When I am ready to trailer it to WG or LimeRock the cage goes in and I'll get another beater for "joy riding"

Not sure of your driving habits but If you need a cage then save it for the track...else a good six point harness is the better option for street safety.

XyZspineZyX
11-06-2007, 10:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
yeah right

the whole point is to not hit Anything . . . . . EVER!_ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course that's the point, bu it still doesn't prevent things from hitting YOU. In which case, it's good to wear seatbelts and have airbags. All of your personal vigilance comes to nothing when a dummy rear ends you while you're sitting at a stop light. Your perfect SA doesn't get you out of the crash in this, and many other examples of things that really do happen on the roads. Your attentivesness does zilch to protect you in cases like this

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
you dont hit things "accidentally" - you do it cause your not looking or your daydreaming _ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem? Maybe YOU don't hit things accidentally. Maybe you were in full control of every aspect of every driver and every car on the road when you were in a crash. Your example of "daydreaming" is too often the case of poor driving, but "not looking"?

Sure. You're looking to your left to make sure a car really stopped for his red light, and a truck blows the red light to your right. You get hit. According to your logic, this was a case of you not looking. Nonsense. No matter what, you cannot correct other drivers' bad habits from your car. It's not an arguable point


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
at 100 , things happen _slowly_ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At 100 kph, 10 kph, or 0 kph, a situation you cannot have warning of can occur. Your preparedness and rapt attention means nothing in those situations in which you cannot react

JG6_Oddball
11-06-2007, 03:53 PM
No helmut needed
No roll cage needed
No airbag needed.....just alot of gas money http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif 74 coupe Deville
http://thumb15.webshots.net/t/52/52/0/17/86/408301786XvNvwo_th.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1408301786042216555XvNvwo)

S!

R_Target
11-06-2007, 04:05 PM
ABS is great if you learned how to drive without it and already know how to brake properly.

Airmail109
11-06-2007, 06:13 PM
In the motorcycle world theyre designing suits that explode airbags round your whole body and neck if a crash is sensed

How about chairs that inflate airbags around your neck?

In fact I may have seen one being done actually, where airbags pop out of the side of the seat and cocoon you.

Airmail109
11-06-2007, 06:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
After those two incidents Im saving my money and getting a car with a built in roll-cage and intrusion cell like the Smart Roadster. Dont skimp! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
lol , what a complete waste of money & time

& Double LOL at the smart car being considered "safe"

you are a worry aimail , how i wish the youth today had more commen sense & less "intelligence"

PS , if you are going to crash - Dont Drive! . . . . . . EVER!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Roadster sports car version isnt so bad, it did better than a Corsa and 206 in crash tests. (In fact even the really tiny ones did) Which is aboult all i can afford. Clarkson loved it as well. I cant afford to drive a 2 liter car http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I dunno about in the US, but over here in the UK any 25 or under male is charged extortionate insurance prices for any engine over 1.4 liters.

Ill just have to be wary of lorry drivers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Going by your logic about 70 percent of road users shouldnt drive ever. Over here did you know 1/3 18 year olds will be involved in a major accident by the time theyre 30.

Also did you know the age group responsible for most of the drink driving is 35-45 years, so much for mature adults having common sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Biatch

JG6_Oddball
11-06-2007, 06:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
In the motorcycle world theyre designing suits that explode airbags round your whole body and neck if a crash is sensed

How about chairs that inflate airbags around your neck?

In fact I may have seen one being done actually, where airbags pop out of the side of the seat and cocoon you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


ummmmm im starting to think of "demolition man " for some reason... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight-
11-06-2007, 08:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Also did you know the age group responsible for most of the drink driving is 35-45 years, so much for mature adults having common sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>its the same in NZ . older drink drivers spiking up the crash rate for 35-45 year olds to the point where they are the greatest percentage of fatal crashes

it still doesnt alter the fact that yoof today are intelligent to the point of their brain falling out . a huge lack of commen sense

cars are not "safe" to crash , you car that passes a "crash" test will get completely crushed in a decent head-on

your ONLY defense when driving is a working brain & open eyes

on the road , not the cellphone or the stereo or the girl walking down the street

ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident - they are very rare occurances

almost every single road crash has contributing factors that could have been avoided - drive with your brain on & avoid becoming a statistic

we have the most ******ed speed ads on the telly in NZ

the message is : "go slow & your Safe!"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Von_Rat
11-07-2007, 01:22 AM
ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident
__________________________________________________ _________


give it time.

ive been driving about 35 years and ive witnessed some god awful accidents.


im a excellent driver, ive avoided accidents by good driving and awarness that left my passengers dumbfounded that i escaped without getting hit. but even i know that no matter how good your sa someday someone will blindside you in such a way that even if you see him coming your still trapped.

Bo_Nidle
11-07-2007, 05:52 AM
For normal road driving you don't need roll cages and all the other kit in a modern car. Wear your seat belt, drive to the speed limit and don't drink....I mean nothing at all if you are driving.

Booze has a different effect on different people depending on weight and metabolism. 2 pints might be fine in one person but knock the other person over the legal limit (..in the UK. I believe Scandinavian countries have a zero drink and drive limit which to me makes perfect sense.It eliminates any doubt as to if you could be over the limit). I've lost count of the amount of people I've breath tested over the last twenty years who reply "I've only had two pints!"

In my experience drivers between 17 and 30 tend to collide with other objects rather than cars because they push the speed beyond their abilities and experience and leave the road.

Between 30 and 55 it becomes a mixture of arrogance from driving for a while, impatience from the stress of daily life and drink. I breath test more people between 30 and 50 than any other age group. Collisions in this age range are normally with other vehicles due to lack of attention as they are rushing.

The 55+ age range suffer from the last symptoms progressing to reduced reaction time and general confusion as the years progress. The collisions in this age group are usually low speed junction pull-outs.

Get the best car you can afford and maintain it. Check your tyre tread depth regularly as it's the only thing keeping you on the road and the contact area is roughly only the size of your palm!

I've been to numerous fatal road accidents and almost always the driver wasn't wearing their seatbelt.

Another thing to bear in mind in the UK is that if you speed and kill someone then you could be looking at a charge of causing "Death by dangerous driving" and that can potentially carry a life sentence.

If anyone thinks that they are a good driver then I guarantee they aren't. Our advanced(Pursuit) driving school is recognised as being one of the top ones in the UK. The first day you go out for an assessment drive thinking that you are pretty good only to be torn apart in the debrief and then rebuilt over the next month. Like the saying goes "Spring chicken to sh!tehawk in one easy lesson"!

So forget all the rubbish and just drive sensibly, you'll live longer.

han freak solo
11-07-2007, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident - they are very rare occurances
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Come to America. I bet the odds are a lot different. Our drivers license testing for cars or motorcycles let through many people that don't have the skill or judgment to be on the road.

LEXX_Luthor
11-07-2007, 07:02 AM
Years ago they had drum brakes, so I suppose people drove more careful back then?

I mean, you see people all the time maxing out their discs today stopping on a dime. I *once* rode with one girl who drove like that -- not stopping until the last second, brakes floored. That was scary. Never again. Roads here in Ussia are really scary. Ha, its so bad, alot of the more moron type bicyclists ride the sidewalk, which is totally understandable, but then they smack down people walking on the sidewalks cos they don't get off when they ride up on somebody. People walking along, or walking onto sidewalks DO NOT look both ways for bicycles (I do now!), and shouldn't have to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

FoxThree
11-07-2007, 09:33 AM
A harness bar is prolly the next best thing to add for spirited street driving. HardBar makes one for some various rides. Also gives a good mounting point for fire suppresent(sp?) and camera mount besides harness mounts. Thought about adding one in my ride when setting it up for road course to mount a camera ... to keep weight down ... until I saw a roll over and what happens to the windscreen.

Covino
11-07-2007, 09:57 AM
Car safety isn't the issue, people just have to be more aware when they drive. If only they made cars without cupholders, radios, inside lighting, AC/heaters, DVD/CD players, etc etc etc... that would be the safest car.
I've been driving for 6 years and never had a single ticket or accident, and 75% of it was on a motorcycle. Even when I'm in a car, I don't touch the radio, AC or anything... since when did driving become secondary when in a car?

LEXX_Luthor
11-07-2007, 10:00 AM
Yah but you roll up or down the windows, from time to time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Covino
11-07-2007, 10:07 AM
only to flip off soccer moms on their cellphones trying to run me over.

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2007, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Years ago they had drum brakes, so I suppose people drove more careful back then?

I mean, you see people all the time maxing out their discs today stopping on a dime. I *once* rode with one girl who drove like that -- not stopping until the last second, brakes floored. That was scary. Never again. Roads here in Ussia are really scary. Ha, its so bad, alot of the more moron type bicyclists ride the sidewalk, which is totally understandable, but then they smack down people walking on the sidewalks cos they don't get off when they ride up on somebody. People walking along, or walking onto sidewalks DO NOT look both ways for bicycles (I do now!), and shouldn't have to. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drum brakes are not an unsafe design. It's a common misconception that somehow drum brakes can't stop a car

Disc brakes are less suscpetible to brake fade, are easier to repair, and are more efficient.

Disc brakes allow people who can't recognise brake fade to smear the brakes with impunity. Coupled with ABS, you can just stomp your foot to the floor, every time

I own a 4,000 lb car with hp and torque up the wahzoo. It has four wheel drums. I can crack your head on the windsheild by just dabbing my brakes in that car. I know what brake fade is like, I know when the brakes will experience it, and I know when to modulate the brakes in that car

It's not that you need to be 'more careful' with drums, it's that discs allow you to not need to know what's happening to the brakes. people have now 'learned' that the brakes can be smashed to the floor all the time. 40 years ago, they knew a different set of rules for braking.

I'm of the opinion that today's tech allows a lot of people to get away with pushing the car past the driver's safe limits, because the driver gets very few scary moments until it's a case of CRRRRAAAAASSSSHHHH! The car doesn't give them enough inputs for them to say "Jeez, nearly lost it! That was lucky" until a situation arrives when it's much too late to draw on experience

XyZspineZyX
11-07-2007, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Also did you know the age group responsible for most of the drink driving is 35-45 years, so much for mature adults having common sense. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>its the same in NZ . older drink drivers spiking up the crash rate for 35-45 year olds to the point where they are the greatest percentage of fatal crashes

it still doesnt alter the fact that yoof today are intelligent to the point of their brain falling out . a huge lack of commen sense

cars are not "safe" to crash , you car that passes a "crash" test will get completely crushed in a decent head-on

your ONLY defense when driving is a working brain & open eyes

on the road , not the cellphone or the stereo or the girl walking down the street

ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident - they are very rare occurances

almost every single road crash has contributing factors that could have been avoided - drive with your brain on & avoid becoming a statistic

we have the most ******ed speed ads on the telly in NZ

the message is : "go slow & your Safe!"

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Badsight, you're not a good driver. You apply your own very quaint and provincial experience to everything. You refuse to accept that anything outside of your own vehicle can be an issue. You think you've seen it all and have all the answers. When you find out how wrong you are, I really do hope that all that happens is you lose a car.

Bremspropeller
11-07-2007, 11:02 AM
Just out of curiosity - what are your country's speed limits?

In Germany, it's

50kph in-town

100kph out of town

unlimited on the Autobahn(freeway) - on some places, Autobahn-speed is limited due to construction works or dangerous spots (120, 80 or 60 kph).

We also have a general "Richtgeschwindigkeit" (at 130kph) which means that if your car is able to reach that speed (your car HAS to be able to go at least at 61kph to lawfully use the Autobahn), you're supposed to go that fast, in order to keep up traffoc-flow.

Blottogg
11-07-2007, 03:02 PM
Brems, in a lot of ways, I miss driving in Germany. The minimum skill standard is much higher, and it is enforced. The roads are also in much better shape (though the Swiss still say their's are much better.)

In the 'States, there are no speed limit standards such as in Germany. Each state sets its own standards, with some prompting from the Federal government (by threatening to withhold federal funds for highway maintenance.) In urban areas, highway limits are usually 55 mph, and up to 70 mph on rural interstate highways (roughly Autobahn equivalents.) Speed limits have also become viewed as "suggestions", with traffic court whiners blaming speedometer/radar gun/police training errors often enough to bring the actual average 5-10 mph above the posted speed "limit". Driving at the posted limit will often put you at risk of collision from behind.

Unlike Germany, American highways have exits every mile or two, so merging traffic is much more of a constant problem in cities and suburbs (which describes the entire Boston-Washington corridor, for example.) You would think that would make Americans experts at merging, but actually many unskilled drivers tend to stick to the left lane to avoid having to deal with merging traffic, and thus passing on the right is a real problem. Left turn signals go ignored (or the butt of jokes..."hey look at the guy who forgot to cancel his signal after changing lanes".) Flashing headlights to get the automotive cholesterol to keep right is now actually classified as "aggressive driving" in many states. Moronic driving is apparently still not a ticketable offense.

The biggest problem is that EVERYONE commutes by car here, and with 401k's replacing pensions, they can change jobs frequently without risking their retirement. So you've got folks with a house they like, in a good school district for the kids, driving 40 miles or more to their new job (and maybe 40 miles in the other direction to their newer job in a year or two) along with a million of their bumper buddies, doing stuff they don't have time for because they're commuting (like eating, reading, shaving, checking e-mail...). Because everyone has to drive (with urban sprawl here, public transportation is a joke... it just can't keep up) the standards are so low compared to Germany, that you'd go crazy in a week over here. The Germans taught me tail-gating as an art form over there, but here everyone rides the bumper in front of them all the time to avoid being cut-off, and not just to get the attention of the left-lane cruiser to keep right. All this while having no skill, judgement or reaction time to be that close to the car in front of them. Meanwhile, red light running has become so bad that you have to count to at least three cars running a left turn signal before you can proceed safely on the green. "My convenience is more important than your safety" is the unofficial motto of the U.S. driver.

For those of you not thinking it's a big problem, watch TV for a while. All the ads for GEICO, State Farm, Allstate, E-surance etc. aren't public service announcements. Hundreds of thousands of collisions occur in the U.S. every year, about 42,000 people die every year, and the money involved makes for BIG business.

FoxThree
11-07-2007, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:

Drum brakes are not an unsafe design. It's a common misconception that somehow drum brakes can't stop a car
&gt;snip&lt;

I own a 4,000 lb car with hp and torque up the wahzoo. It has four wheel drums. I can crack your head on the windsheild by just dabbing my brakes in that car.
&gt;snip&lt;

I'm of the opinion that today's tech allows a lot of people to get away with pushing the car past the driver's safe limits, because the driver gets very few scary moments until it's a case of CRRRRAAAAASSSSHHHH! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drum brakes are so yesterdays technology. It is not that they can't stop you but rather its the distance that they can consistantly stop you.

If you can cause your passenger to hit the windscreen you prolly need to change your brake bias more to the rear, especially onna a 2 ton car.

They push these cars today with all the bells and wistles and the drivers all think they are Schumi.

My old heap drives better than I do thanks to AH and TC. I take off trac control and drive in competition mode, what good is 650 hp if you can't drift, but I never touch the active handling even at the trak. It gets a bit hairy rowing thru the gears and breaking loose grabing fourth. I am all for new technology.

LEXX_Luthor
11-07-2007, 05:59 PM
Thanks Chuck and Fox for the poasts about the drums. I've driven a few old trucks on occasion and I guess they can be touchy on the pedals at first.

Badsight-
11-07-2007, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ive been involved in my share of crashes

but a situation where nothing could be done ?

be sure : accidents are rare events . . . . . . people love to shift blame & make up excuses

what i love about motorcycles , is that arriving at your destination isnt a sure thing .
you can be bashed off & squished so eaisly

combine that with higher performance than cars & you have an irresistable combination (to me)

you will ONLY stay upright & out of harms way because of the thought process going on inside your head

Badsight-
11-07-2007, 08:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
Drum brakes are not an unsafe design. It's a common misconception that somehow drum brakes can't stop a car </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
drums are **** once the speed gets up

lose the ancient tech fanboyism - the dinos died out long ago

Badsight-
11-07-2007, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bremspropeller:
We also have a general "Richtgeschwindigkeit" (at 130kph) which means that if your car is able to reach that speed (your car HAS to be able to go at least at 61kph to lawfully use the Autobahn), you're supposed to go that fast, in order to keep up traffoc-flow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
this is a revelation (to me) - here in NZ they treat you like your incapable & that you need to go so slow that you cease to be a danger

there isnt any attitude like the above at all in our traffic enforcement

your treated like a murderer if you go at 120 kmh instead of 100 - its insane

The-Pizza-Man
11-07-2007, 09:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxThree:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:

Drum brakes are not an unsafe design. It's a common misconception that somehow drum brakes can't stop a car
&gt;snip&lt;

I own a 4,000 lb car with hp and torque up the wahzoo. It has four wheel drums. I can crack your head on the windsheild by just dabbing my brakes in that car.
&gt;snip&lt;

I'm of the opinion that today's tech allows a lot of people to get away with pushing the car past the driver's safe limits, because the driver gets very few scary moments until it's a case of CRRRRAAAAASSSSHHHH! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drum brakes are so yesterdays technology. It is not that they can't stop you but rather its the distance that they can consistantly stop you.

If you can cause your passenger to hit the windscreen you prolly need to change your brake bias more to the rear, especially onna a 2 ton car.

They push these cars today with all the bells and wistles and the drivers all think they are Schumi.

My old heap drives better than I do thanks to AH and TC. I take off trac control and drive in competition mode, what good is 650 hp if you can't drift, but I never touch the active handling even at the trak. It gets a bit hairy rowing thru the gears and breaking loose grabing fourth. I am all for new technology. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its not your brakes that stop you, its your tyres, if you can lock up your wheels with them then drum brakes will stop you just as fast as discs.

Badsight-
11-08-2007, 12:42 AM
yeah

they only use discs in F1 cos its eaiser for the mechanics to adjust

but if they said "stuff the mechanics , we want to lap fast" you can be sure they would be replacing those disc's with the drum brakes faster than you can blink

Von_Rat
11-08-2007, 04:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
ive never had an accident , ive never witnessed an accident </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
ive been involved in my share of crashes

but a situation where nothing could be done ?

be sure : accidents are rare events . . . . . . people love to shift blame & make up excuses

what i love about motorcycles , is that arriving at your destination isnt a sure thing .
you can be bashed off & squished so eaisly

combine that with higher performance than cars & you have an irresistable combination (to me)

you will ONLY stay upright & out of harms way because of the thought process going on inside your head </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was qouting you. i didnt say i never had a accident, if im not mistaken it was you who made that statment.

isnt a crash the same as a accident?

as for situations were nothing could be done. i think sombodys already mentioned sitting in traffic at a stoplight when sombody rear ends you.

it almost happened to me. i was sitting at a stoplight surrounded by cars. i hear brakes screehing so i look in rearview and see a car bearing down on me. i automatically tried to get out of way, but there was nowhere to go.

luckily the guy stopped inches from my rear end. he must of really been moving because he left really long skid marks on the pavement.

The-Pizza-Man
11-08-2007, 05:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Badsight-:
yeah

they only use discs in F1 cos its eaiser for the mechanics to adjust

but if they said "stuff the mechanics , we want to lap fast" you can be sure they would be replacing those disc's with the drum brakes faster than you can blink </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope that's sarcasm there. There's no doubt that disc brakes are superior to drum brakes for most applications because they aren't as susceptible to brake fade because they have better ability to disipate heat. However, you can have the most powerful brakes in the world and they won't stop you faster than your tyres will allow. The tyre is the limiting factor not the brakes. Only once the brakes heat up does the torque the brake can apply become the limiting factor, which is why racing cars use big ***, ceramic discs. They are braking close to maximum at every single turn from very high speeds so their brakes heat up rapidly and they have very grippy tyres so the braking force they apply can be much greater. Your average joe shouldn't be doing that and car road tyres have a much lower coefficient of friction so drum brakes or disc brakes shouldn't really make a difference.

FoxThree
11-08-2007, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Its not your brakes that stop you, its your tyres, if you can lock up your wheels with them then drum brakes will stop you just as fast as discs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can lock up the wheels then you are not stopping you're skidding, not good under any circumstance no matter disk or drum. Like many here I learned to drive on cars with drum brakes, manual tranny and no power assist steering.

I am sorry to not have stated the obvious. I would have thought it was "assumed" we all know that it is the friction between the ground and tire that slows down the vehicle. Stating the obvious is just so pointless it is usually "assumed" in any serious discussion ... my bad.

Drum brakes are to the braking system what generators were to the charging system ... old tech. Drum brakes have inefficiency problems with consistancy. There is a reason the big boy's go to the rear ... if you know anything about drums and brakes you will understand this slang. On lighter weight passenger vehicles there are better options.

For performance you modify with lighter and stronger upgrades. You want to reduce weight from the suspension, unsprung and rotating weight first and foremost. Weight reduction improves suspension performance while increasing a vehicles acceleration. Rotors crack and warp but are still the better choice for performance.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2007, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxThree:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:

Drum brakes are not an unsafe design. It's a common misconception that somehow drum brakes can't stop a car
&gt;snip&lt;

I own a 4,000 lb car with hp and torque up the wahzoo. It has four wheel drums. I can crack your head on the windsheild by just dabbing my brakes in that car.
&gt;snip&lt;

I'm of the opinion that today's tech allows a lot of people to get away with pushing the car past the driver's safe limits, because the driver gets very few scary moments until it's a case of CRRRRAAAAASSSSHHHH! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drum brakes are so yesterdays technology. It is not that they can't stop you but rather its the distance that they can consistantly stop you.

If you can cause your passenger to hit the windscreen you prolly need to change your brake bias more to the rear, especially onna a 2 ton car.

They push these cars today with all the bells and wistles and the drivers all think they are Schumi.

My old heap drives better than I do thanks to AH and TC. I take off trac control and drive in competition mode, what good is 650 hp if you can't drift, but I never touch the active handling even at the trak. It gets a bit hairy rowing thru the gears and breaking loose grabing fourth. I am all for new technology. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Change the brake bias? This vehicle is not a race car

GM designed the master cylinder, which controls the bias, and there is no proportioning valve, as is commonly thought to be present in these systems. The junction block for the front and rear halves of the system houses nothing except the brake warning light- when the system has 150 psi on one side and 150 on the other (each 150 psi from one side of the mater cylinder), the switch is centered and the light is off. If pressure on either side is lost or low, the switch moves, completes a circuit, and the warning light comes on. Even guys who grew up with muscle cars tend to think their drum brake cars have proportioning valves. There is no way to change the brake bias with that system. A system in which the bias can be changed would be needed. The stock system cannot do this, and I strongly argue that the average or even above-average driver has no business changing his or her brake bias in a passenger car

On disc brake systems of the time, yes, there is a proportioning valve. But not on drums

Today, discs outperform drums. Back when this car was new, cars like the Camaro Z28 had discs that outperformed drums, but in general, drums were just about as good as discs, due to the (generally) greater contact area of the shoes

I am not advocating drum brakes as a high performances system. The consistent stopping problems are due to brake fade, as I have mentioned. This can be combatted by modulating the pedal, but stopping distances can suffer. Still, they are not unsafe systems, they simply require a different set of rules that the driver must be aware of, or suffer the consequences

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxThree:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Its not your brakes that stop you, its your tyres, if you can lock up your wheels with them then drum brakes will stop you just as fast as discs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can lock up the wheels then you are not stopping you're skidding, not good under any circumstance no matter disk or drum. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif "A skidding tire has no directional stability"

FoxThree
11-08-2007, 10:14 AM
The bias can be changed. Though GM will not tell you so, it can be done on B-Bodys. I did this to my '96 SS and was able to get more than the 5% to the rear as it came from factory. The procedure is not difficult but not sure if it is completely legal... I am sure someone more knowledgable in law can confirm this.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2007, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxThree:
The bias can be changed. Though GM will not tell you so, it can be done on B-Bodys. I did this to my '96 SS and was able to get more than the 5% to the rear as it came from factory. The procedure is not difficult but not sure if it is completely legal... I am sure someone more knowledgable in law can confirm this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

5% brake bias to the rear as stock? This does not sound right. Are you sure you have not made a mistake here?

In the case of my car, it's not "GM won't tell me"

The car was made in November 1969. Not 1996. It's an A body, not a B body. Your car wasn't even on the drawing board the day mine went on the obsolete car list at GM in 1978. I have a true drum brake system; you have a hybrid front disc rear drum, or else 4 wheel disc, and the systems are not the same

I am also very confused by "the big boys go on the rear". This is not car-talk outside of your group. Are you actually trying to say you put the larger brakes on the back of the car?

FoxThree
11-08-2007, 02:29 PM
The A-Body came in just under 4000 lbs so when you posted your 4000 lb car earlier I took it to mean B-Body. I've owned a few A-bodies in the past one being a Doc Watson '68 Hurst Olds. Very fast car but just don't turn well. Sorry if I was comparing apples to oranges. No intention was meant to hijack or troll. I used to sell Herb Adams sway bars for the A-Body, really helped out with cornering.

Yeah the larger shoe goes to the rear, they wear quicker. Someone with more physics education can prolly explain it better than I.

GM listens to the bean counters over their engineers and let the 9C1 and impala SS go out with the same combi valve they put in their drum models. That gave a 90% - 10% bias. Plug the hole in the rear proportioning valve bolt and the ratio goes to 75-25 and the car squats under hard braking rather than taking a dive.

XyZspineZyX
11-08-2007, 03:54 PM
the rear shoe wear surface extends higher up on the front of the rear shoes because of the e-brake

msalama
11-08-2007, 04:35 PM
F*k it. I'm a proud owner of a well-kept Seat Arosa, and as a grandmotherly driver couldn't care s**t anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

YMMV, just don't f**k up my mileage is all I'm asking.

BaldieJr
11-08-2007, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Although I suffered some pretty nasty injuries I believe the car deforming as it did saved my life. Had it been fitted with a roll cage I`m not sure that I would have. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i have to chime in on this and i hope someone will gain something from it.

i've had two accidents in a honda del sol, which is a tiny two-seat car of unibody construction.

in both accidents i was hit hard. the first wiped the whole left side of the car out. $3,500 in repairs. the second was a head-on with a light pole. i hit so hard i was nearly knocked out.

in both instances the car was driven away from the accident. no lie.

anyway, i'm repairing the front end on my own (yay me!) and having torn this car apart and inspected every piece, i'm fairly certain that i would have gotten very badly hurt in an suv, truck, or some other stiff vehicle.

the smaller cars are safer in typical accidents because they crumple spread the impact. by the time we are stopped by the restraint system a large portion of the energy is already dispersed by the cars unibody.

i like to mention that i will never own anything but hondas. they're damned fine automobiles.

The-Pizza-Man
11-09-2007, 02:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FoxThree:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
Its not your brakes that stop you, its your tyres, if you can lock up your wheels with them then drum brakes will stop you just as fast as discs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can lock up the wheels then you are not stopping you're skidding, not good under any circumstance no matter disk or drum.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not reccommending skidding as the most efficient way of stopping, not under any circumstances. However, do you know when maximum braking occurs? Just before you lock up the wheels. That is the peak amount of brake force that can be applied before the tyre begins to skid and braking force is lost. So being able to apply more braking torque to the wheel beyond what is neccessary to lock it up (or just before you lock up) will do nothing, hence if you can lock up the wheels with drums you won't stop any faster with discs.

Badsight-
11-09-2007, 03:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BaldieJr:
i'm fairly certain that i would have gotten very badly hurt in an suv, truck, or some other stiff vehicle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>police in my country use Holdens & fords

a copper was chasing a young guy , he was in a newer 1990s Ford Falcon - the young guy trying to run away was in an older early 1970's Ford Falcon (decent metal)

another Police Falcon pulled out in front of the guy running

the new police Falcon was ripped in half by the older Falcon

modern cars are not designed to survive proper smashes

they are tested at city speeds - you will die in a combined speed highway head-on . or at least have your car ripped apart around you

the worst things to hit are trees . trees do not give way , their roots help keep them cemented in place

MOH_MADMAN
11-09-2007, 08:44 PM
saw one of those Smart Roadsters down in Mexico, man what a head turner, very sharp. Funny they dont import those to the US, only now do they import the two door. Neither do they offer the turbo deisel here which gets twice the fuel economy for that lil thing.

MAD

FoxThree
11-10-2007, 07:46 AM
Heres a good argument for safety equiptment.
http://www.dpccars.com/car-videos/10-21-07page-Half-pipe-in-a-car.htm

Its on the web so its gotta be real right?