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BSS_CUDA
07-05-2005, 09:31 PM
serious question, is this game slanted towards blue ETO in particular.
I can only use the stats boards to compare. so using the W/C stats here goes what they post.

1.in the top 20 in total kills, 16 of the top 20 are blue
2.in the top 20 k/d ratio, 18 of the top 20 are blue
3.plane comparison with the exception of the 110,111 and F8 all Blue are over a .65 k/d ratio and ALL red are below a .65 k/d ratio ( numbers rounded, page 1 only )

now I'm sure that I'll be called a whiner, maybe so, and I'm sure some will say its the missions, but I find it fasinating what the numbers say. please keep this as a discussion and not a flame war, I really would like to know what your opinions are on the stats, on a side note, who's the Einstein that made the map the has the red team attacking flying 180 straight into a sun on the horizon?!?!?!?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif maybe they taught us wrong in school all those moons ago I was taught the sun rises 090 and sets 270 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

forgot the links
top kills (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/air/index.html)
K/D Ratio (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/kd/index.html)
plane stats page 1 (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=plane/all/index.html)

BSS_CUDA
07-05-2005, 09:31 PM
serious question, is this game slanted towards blue ETO in particular.
I can only use the stats boards to compare. so using the W/C stats here goes what they post.

1.in the top 20 in total kills, 16 of the top 20 are blue
2.in the top 20 k/d ratio, 18 of the top 20 are blue
3.plane comparison with the exception of the 110,111 and F8 all Blue are over a .65 k/d ratio and ALL red are below a .65 k/d ratio ( numbers rounded, page 1 only )

now I'm sure that I'll be called a whiner, maybe so, and I'm sure some will say its the missions, but I find it fasinating what the numbers say. please keep this as a discussion and not a flame war, I really would like to know what your opinions are on the stats, on a side note, who's the Einstein that made the map the has the red team attacking flying 180 straight into a sun on the horizon?!?!?!?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif maybe they taught us wrong in school all those moons ago I was taught the sun rises 090 and sets 270 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

forgot the links
top kills (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/air/index.html)
K/D Ratio (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/kd/index.html)
plane stats page 1 (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=plane/all/index.html)

WWSensei
07-05-2005, 09:37 PM
Cuda, what I've noticed is that the red team, with few exceptions, tends to attack in singles or pairs. Blue tends to pack hunt in groups of 4-6 on comms.

I picked off two bombers today because they came in without either a fighter sweep in front or fighter cover. I fly the 1942 Me110 have a 1.25 K/D with 20 kills. Everyone of those was catching a red pilot low, slow and not paying attention. It's the only way I CAN get in a kill in it.

I watched a series of Spit pilots dive one at a time on a group of 6 of us. It was suicidal. Maybe some pilots were used to 3.04 where you could go in one on many and often times escape, but with the new FM stupid tactics are punished and not rewarded.

My experience was some problems in 3.04 caused a lot of the blue to have to work in groups and that's translated well into 4.01.

I do know things are changing as it is getting harder and harder to find easy meat red pilots. They are more rare but still exist.

It takes comms and team work and not just lone wolves who only use comms to call for help when they are in trouble.

Get the red team working together a bit more and the numbers will start to change.

BSS_CUDA
07-05-2005, 09:47 PM
that could be part of it but I know when I'm on coms, 4-6 of us will circle the base before we head out, some of the things that so irritate us is ppl not on coms. I do find it hard to believe that everyone that flys red can be that stupid as to lone wolf constantly, where Blue is such a cohesive unit and never ventures out alone ( tone meant to be slightly sarcastic ) I've flown against ya alot in your 110 Sensei, we've both gotten each other our fair share http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif, I always get a chuckle out of the spits and stangs attackin you from the rear http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif, with the 38 its not so big a deal as the AI usually aim for the nose and I might lose a machine gun but never any controls or my engine like the previous 2.

bolillo_loco
07-05-2005, 09:56 PM
while the planes do help I think it is mostly a case of blue mostly flys in larger groups than red does. if everybody changed colors I bet the results would be the same.

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-05-2005, 09:57 PM
You cannot use those stats to guage a plane or pilots performance. What the stats do not track are the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" you get when a player lands that you damaged. Since about 50% of all Allied "Kills" are scored in this manner, the stats are not even close to what is actually happening in game.


We are trying to work into the Kill stats a .5 reward for damaging a plane that lands. I have not ETA on when this will be done.

S~

Lixma
07-05-2005, 10:00 PM
It's a fire-power issue IMO. If you get hit by any German weapons your plane generally disintegrates taking the pilot with it.The .50s are good for a lightly smoking engine if you're accurate in one pass leaving the enemy a decent chance to make it back in one piece.

Also the stats don't record these "damaged+rtb" as kills even though you get the message and points when they land.

BSS_CUDA
07-05-2005, 10:02 PM
Sparx is there a way to put in say a .5 kill or an assist on an EA?? I know there are many time when my wing and I work together to get a kill and I take satisfaction when he gets it knowing I did my part, but an assist stat would be nice if possible, it would really show the team players and not the stats hounds. BTW this is in no way a reflection on WC Sparx, it without a doubt the one of the best if not the top server out there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-05-2005, 10:09 PM
Cuda,

The data is there to be pulled out. And it is possible to award a .5 for it. Its just a matter of finding an effective way to pull out the data and add it to the kill stat. Someone is currently working oni it with me. But I dunno if he has the answer yet. What i really need is some one that can do PHP, MySQL, and HTML to work with me to redesign the stats. I have a layout that will tell a better story of the stats, but I am new to these coding languages. It took me two days to get just one section done. If someone who knows what they are doing did this, they could have dont in probably 15 mins.

So if you and someone you know can help me with this, then please have them get ahold of me.

S!~

VW-IceFire
07-05-2005, 10:13 PM
Personal opinion? Red team, on any Axis VS Allies server I'm on, looses due to poor teamwork on a consistent and regular basis.

Everyone is out for themselves and doesn't give a care towards supporting the rest of the team. Thats usually why red looses whever I've been.

Badsight.
07-05-2005, 10:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
serious question, is this game slanted towards blue ETO in particular.
I can only use the stats boards to compare. so using the W/C stats here goes what they post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
wait up a minute , you want to use a Airquake DF room stats to guage how accurate this sim is in moddeling ?

i have issues with FB as well but this is the biggest wrong way to guage how accurate FB-PF is

Tachyon1000
07-05-2005, 11:06 PM
I have a suggestion here. In my other life, I used to play a game called Starfleet Command based in the Star Trek universe. Invariably, newbs went for the familiar race in campaigns, the Federation. While Blue players (Feds) in this instance were numerous, they are also not very skilled, whereas those who were more experienced tended toward other races such as Klingons (Red in that game).


Now, while I can guarantee you that I drive down all of Blue's planes' stats in this game, I wonder if one were to compare the top 10 Axis and Allied players on WarClouds that their stats might not be similar in terms of K/D ratios when comparing Allied planes to Axis planes overall.

Further, I would suggest that the Axis' one shot kill capacity means that any one Axis player spends less time executing a kill than any one Allied player, wherein that one kill for the Allied side may be made up of a number of Allied players firing at a disabled but not dead plane. Also, this means that kill stealing is less prevalent overall for Axis than Allied, whether it be intentional or not.

Lastly, what did the stats used to be, pre-4.01. I have no idea. If they were similar, the patch cannot be faulted. If not, we cannot be sure if the results mirror the reality of these planes' lethality or not.

Actually, I would suggest something rather simple. Take the player stats, use a statistical model to predict an appropriate kill stat with independent variables being perhaps flight time, sorties, side (Red or Blue), etc and one can see if the game is indeed slanted to one side at least statistically. Of course that is dependent on being able to actually derive a good model from the available data.

ElAurens
07-05-2005, 11:16 PM
It is far different in the Pacific. In the Zeke vs. Wildcat server the Allies are essentiallly unbeatable. Although much of this has to do with the layout of the maps presented, and the fact that Allied flyers will never balance teams. 30 red vs. 4 blue? No problem. Ive seen red flyers quit rather than fly Japanese aircraft.

It's getting rather boring really...

Atomic_Marten
07-06-2005, 01:36 AM
@ElAurens exactly the same thing is on ETO theatre online, with exception that you just can not force people to go red. Reds are in most cases outnumbered and is rarely ever "even-teams".

hobnail
07-06-2005, 02:51 AM
Please....the WC 44 server is usually balanced or, if anything, oversupplied with P38L Late drivers.

The difference, IMHO, is this. On average the WC TS2 server has twice as many blues talking it up than red. Fly red and you're lucky most times to have 2 or 3 other players working with you. FLy Blue and you'll have your whole team chanting grid refs, headings and contacts.

My 2c

jurinko
07-06-2005, 02:51 AM
in real fight, almost any plane trailing smoke/glycol/fuel was doomed, since the distance to own base was beyond its possible range. Brownings are good for such type of damage.

Blue pilots are in general more skilled, it took much more skill to fly and survive up to now. I seldom find any allied plane above 4-5km.

SeaFireLIV
07-06-2005, 03:34 AM
As others have said, Blue team better discipline, Red team act like cowboys.

The amount of frustration I`ve had trying to get people working as a team just to watch them march single-file into 2-4 Blue axis planes working together.

Pirschjaeger
07-06-2005, 03:59 AM
There is another possibility. Everyone knows the 190 and 109 take more time a discipline to learn to fly effectively. No, I am not saying the red planes are "noob planes" but in general, they are more user friendly.

With this in mind, you will get more the cowboy attitute flying some of the red planes, where the blue pilots choose blue simply because they have a more disciplined attitute naturally.

I haven't tried the new FM yet but from my experience, planes like the Spit, P-51, and La7 are very easy to fly on first try. So they are a natural attraction and plane of choice for the cowboys. The 109 and especially the 190 pilots had to have patience just to reach their first kill. Makes sense doesn't it?

I don't think it's about the game or planes as much as it's about each pilot's attitude. I normally fly 190 or 109 but when I feel like going up and slaughtering or being "cowboyish", it take the Spit or La7. I apply my tactics I learnt while flying blue planes and apply them to the red planes and get many more kills. I don't think the game is slanted though.

Fritz

Slater_51st
07-06-2005, 04:16 AM
When I first started on WarClouds, I didn't have TS. It wasn't near as interesting as it could have been.

Then, last few times I've flown, I've used TS, and oh my word. It's a wonder any Red guys survive sometimes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And not to complain, but the past few times I've been on a WC server, it has always been the blue that is outnumbered. I have seen it opposite, but not as often.

I'm also guessing that some people who fly this sim grab a Spit or a P-51 because they remember reading that they "won the war" so they've gotta be great right? They forget that what won the war was disciplined flying, always attacking with an advantage, teamwork, and numbers. Which, it would seem, is how blue tends to fly, while Red usually gets its butt pounced down low. Something of a role-reversal from RL eh?

S! Slater

Hunter82
07-06-2005, 04:21 AM
I snuck in Zekes vs Wildcats this past weekend ....dogpile on red so I went blue...played about and hour, had 15 kills.... I saw it as a target rich environment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
It is far different in the Pacific. In the Zeke vs. Wildcat server the Allies are essentiallly unbeatable. Although much of this has to do with the layout of the maps presented, and the fact that Allied flyers will never balance teams. 30 red vs. 4 blue? No problem. Ive seen red flyers quit rather than fly Japanese aircraft.

It's getting rather boring really... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pirschjaeger
07-06-2005, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hunter82:
I snuck in Zekes vs Wildcats this past weekend ....dogpile on red so I went blue...played about and hour, had 15 kills.... I saw it as a target rich environment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
It is far different in the Pacific. In the Zeke vs. Wildcat server the Allies are essentiallly unbeatable. Although much of this has to do with the layout of the maps presented, and the fact that Allied flyers will never balance teams. 30 red vs. 4 blue? No problem. Ive seen red flyers quit rather than fly Japanese aircraft.

It's getting rather boring really... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my online experience, this is typical. The reds usually far outnumber the blues, on any map. This has forced the regular blue flyers to be more patient and tactical. Thanks red team! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

Fehler
07-06-2005, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hunter82:
I snuck in Zekes vs Wildcats this past weekend ....dogpile on red so I went blue...played about and hour, had 15 kills.... I saw it as a target rich environment http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
It is far different in the Pacific. In the Zeke vs. Wildcat server the Allies are essentiallly unbeatable. Although much of this has to do with the layout of the maps presented, and the fact that Allied flyers will never balance teams. 30 red vs. 4 blue? No problem. Ive seen red flyers quit rather than fly Japanese aircraft.

It's getting rather boring really... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flew on that server a week or so ago. At one point, there were only 3 axis planes v 18 allied. How can that even be fun for the red guys?

For me, it was a supreme challenge. I lost the challenge, however, and got my rear handed to me.. hehe. If I was a Zeke pilot in WWII, I would have filled my fuselage with rice to absorb the 50 cal bullets and add some weight so I could dive away from the Americans!

Pirschjaeger
07-06-2005, 05:02 AM
The issue about using TS is a funny one for me. I live in China and so I'm a member of the Chinese JG/54 squadron and am the the only foreignor in our squaron. The majority of our members can type and read English but cannot speak English. I cannot speak enough Chinese to understand what they are saying on TS but they used to ask me all the time why I refuse to use TS.

I tried it a few time but had no idea of what they were saying until I had bullets ripping through my backside. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

I never use TS.

Fritz

Hunter82
07-06-2005, 05:06 AM
you may want to teach them simpler terms like the clock aspect.... ie 3-6-9-12 I've played with a bunch before on TS who could speak little or no english and myself little to no polish,russian,korean, etc. Makes for a good learning experience after a bit and everyone has a good time when open to learning someones native language other than english.

Pirschjaeger
07-06-2005, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hunter82:
you may want to teach them simpler terms like the clock aspect.... ie 3-6-9-12 I've played with a bunch before on TS who could speak little or no english and myself little to no polish,russian,korean, etc. Makes for a good learning experience after a bit and everyone has a good time when open to learning someones native language other than english. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They know the clock aspects in English but imagine it with an excited Chinese with a strong accent. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I removed TS simply cause I was getting shotdown while trying to concentrate on what they were saying. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Fehler
07-06-2005, 05:19 AM
My favorite is the guy that tells you, "Bandit, your 3" when he is really on your 9. Not stating any names *Cough* Kannonboot *Cough*.

ROFL!

jessi1
07-06-2005, 05:38 AM
Fehler lol we all mess up once and a while huh. Kanonboot i love ya man, really it shows to me that when i fly with my boys on blue all of us are usually on comms and really look out for each other and call the grids out were enemys are all the time, we also know each other(from this game)pretty well and like to help each other out as much as possible, i dont know about red but thats how it is on the blue side. Also the guys on red dont care about there team very much, i see spits and stangs down low in furballs all the time and p-47s up high not helping anyone and p-38lates lonewolfing most of the time not using group tactics. This is just my observation when i fly. When i see a bunch of planes and i go to check it out they are almost all freindlys and that shows that there is a communication going on, my 2 cents.

Kurfurst__
07-06-2005, 05:49 AM
I give you a hint. If you fly Luftwaffe, you either fly the FW 190 or the Bf 109.

And most of the bestknownLW players are around since the original Il2 Beta, and they fly their choosen ride ever since.

Are you surprised tactics and exploiting the planes are totally perfected?

Atomic_Marten
07-06-2005, 05:51 AM
Someone once says, "Almost all regulars here flys blue. They know what's going on". What exactly did he meant by that, to me it is unknown.

But certainly good group tactic can be experienced while flying for blue side. And tactic in this game means the difference between virtual success or death.

Xiolablu3
07-06-2005, 06:12 AM
If you are on a dogfight, icons on, server then red is easier to see against the ground, blue is very dark and hard to spot sometimes where the plane exactly is.

This is my explanation, blue is easier to fly for me because of this.

Hunter82
07-06-2005, 06:34 AM
What are icons? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you are on a dogfight, icons on, server then red is easier to see against the ground, blue is very dark and hard to spot sometimes where the plane exactly is.

This is my explanation, blue is easier to fly for me because of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 06:56 AM
I dont buy the red doesnt use comms effective bit. at least not when I'm online, I'm westcoast U.S. and when I'm on, chatter is very good. it's usually so much that we need to break into 2 channels to clear it up some. as for the red flight models being easier I cannot personally speak to that as the ONLY plane I have flown on WC is the 38 since 3.04. i have heard soem of the blue's that have come over to red to even the teams speak about the comparisons tho. 1 particular 190 pilot has acutally givin up flying it and come over to the dark side saying it was too easy to fly since 4.0 he realised that its almost impossible to bring down now. if it was just the 190's with the higher stats I could attribute it just to the FM, maybe it is the teammwork. there are more noobs, ( dang another 40 points against my score http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ) flying red as of late, I've taken to flying the 38 with the gunpods now just for that little xtra pop to try to bring down those 190's. Mind you I do well in game, I just found it striking that blue has such an overwhelming advantage statisically, map wise most of them end in a draw so I see no advantage either side there, all-tho when I fly and blue is on the offensive they almost NEVER go after thier objectives, just this last monday blue was attacking and after 50 minutes the had not hit a single ground target, not one. its not like they even need to fly bombers to kill them, with those 108's they can take out anything on the ground, but yet they choose to DF instead of going after the objectives http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Side note: Sparx I believe my son might have the skills your looking for, he doesnt play this game but I'll ask him anyways http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anarchy52
07-06-2005, 07:16 AM
Q: Is the game slanted towards blue?
A: No.

F19_Ob
07-06-2005, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

In my online experience, this is typical. The reds usually far outnumber the blues, on any map. This has forced the regular blue flyers to be more patient and tactical. Thanks red team! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny how we have opposit experiences sometimes.
I guess it may depend on where one fly.
I usually flew on GG and f16. Havent flown online with the new FM yet.

For me it's the other way around.
I mainly flew the 109 for years but we always slaughtered the opposing team with better rides and numbers, although the 109 was much more disadvantages earlier, both in FM and armament.

I anyway determined my advantage days were over because there wasn't any challange anymore.
From that day I would only fly on the disadvantage side and In crappier rides than the opposition. Humorously this sentiment is in parts shared by many of my online mates, and we go on crapplane sessions together on occasion.

Only Times I can fly blue (because of my honor code) is when a map switches to japan vs allied.
Most of my mates have noticed that the guys who flew 109's and fw190 in the map before usually picks the faster american rides in the Japan vs allied map's if they aren't available on blue.
(a pattern? )

Hardly ever my team was equal or more in numbers to the opposing team, but usually my team was only half or less in size against the opponents.
So that means I normally fly red in europe and blue in the pacific.
Sometimes ofcourse the red team has outnumbered the blue team, but that has happened very seldom so far (for me and mates) and one must also look at the balance.
Usually the blue teams in european theatre consists of only fighters while the red team has a number of groundpounders and bombers mixed with fighters.

My most frustrating experiences was for example when my team consisted of two il-2's and a La5 against 23 blue fighters and none would come over when asked.

Olli and I considered 8 or 9 against 18 or more normal odds for a long time, and we usually flew groundpounders.
I have tracks where I try to evade 9 or more blue fighters for some minutes in an il-2 doubleseater. They all go after me because of shortage of targets.
-------------------------------------

Personally I always choose the team on the disadvantage and so far it's very seldom the blue in the european theatre on the servers I have flown on, but I guess this also can change with that late planesets are more common now and yak3, La7 and even late spits will give the blue a hard time wich was more unlikely in earlier maps.

well a few thoughts.
Sadly quite many think winning by any means is acceptable in this type of competition.
I'm sure most would be quite anoyed if one team was reduced by half in a soccer or basketball match or why not in baseball.

Online DF servers often gives me a picture of 10 big schoolkids beating a couple of girls from kindergarden. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

BSS_Goat
07-06-2005, 07:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F19_Ob:
Online DF servers often gives me a picture of 10 big schoolkids beating a couple of girls from kindergarden. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

MEGILE
07-06-2005, 07:43 AM
Hmmm maybe 2 reasons

1 - LW boys run in groups

2 - The Spitfire IX... slow, slow , slow! It is vapourware to the 44 and 45 Luftwaffe.


hmm maybe norris will pop in shortly to exclaim details about VVS over modelling, various curiosities about LaGG DMs and La-7 speeds and how this game is Red bias.. all the while "forgetting" details such as the current FW DM, the BF-109K4 climb speed, prop pitch exploit etc.etc.

Quite the progoganda chief http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

No this game isn't one side biased.. just silly people like to believe it is.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Atomic_Marten
07-06-2005, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you are on a dogfight, icons on, server then red is easier to see against the ground, blue is very dark and hard to spot sometimes where the plane exactly is.

This is my explanation, blue is easier to fly for me because of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with that, blue is harder to spot, but then again only almost blind man wouldn't noticed blue arrows on sides of his screen.. so that may be only on pit on + icons on server. Big may be.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">No this game isn't one side biased.. just silly people like to believe it is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO that is true. Errors, if made intentionally, is probably because of lacking data. But there can always be a new patch to correct them. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Q: Is the game slanted towards blue?
A: No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GENIUS PURE GENIUS

no go away or I shall taunt you a second time

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:

No this game isn't one side biased.. just silly people like to believe it is.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont missinterperate my original post. I am going off of the stats alone. I do well on WC, I am one of those 4 reds in the top 20 in kills http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, but I found it VERY striking to look at the stats and see very few reds near the top in ANY statistic, some ppl whine about the "UBER" german guns, some ppl whine about the "porked" 50's, some whine about the PP exploit on the 109's, there is always something to blame bad skills on, but it does make one wonder "if" there might be a grain of truth to all the whining http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif I do wish that more of the reds flew as a unit, maybe I'm just lucky with the group that I fly with during my time zone. there are 4-6 of us that almost NEVER leave base alone and it always seems to be the same group, we will always look for each other and if 1 or 2 of us gets shot down we will bugout and pick them up on the return flight, we do fly well as a unit. but I dont by the blue pilots are all vets and the reds are all noobs theory ( dang another 40 points http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif )

geetarman
07-06-2005, 08:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lixma:
It's a fire-power issue IMO. If you get hit by any German weapons your plane generally disintegrates taking the pilot with it.The .50s are good for a lightly smoking engine if you're accurate in one pass leaving the enemy a decent chance to make it back in one piece.

Also the stats don't record these "damaged+rtb" as kills even though you get the message and points when they land. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo. Mostly it's the cannons. You get hit good now, you go down. End of story.

Also, the German planes seem more stable to me as gun platforms than, say, a Mustang. Yes, you can't trim the rudder, but you can adjust for it. The 109's in particluar, seem rock solid in flight. Very smooth! Fly a Mustang or a T-bolt. It's a whole different experience. Your thoughts are now split almost 50/50 between trying to keep the plane in fighting trim and actually doing combat!

Definatley makes for an interesting flight. I am not surprised in the least about what the stats are showing.

geetarman
07-06-2005, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
There is another possibility. Everyone knows the 190 and 109 take more time a discipline to learn to fly effectively. No, I am not saying the red planes are "noob planes" but in general, they are more user friendly.

With this in mind, you will get more the cowboy attitute flying some of the red planes, where the blue pilots choose blue simply because they have a more disciplined attitute naturally.

I haven't tried the new FM yet but from my experience, planes like the Spit, P-51, and La7 are very easy to fly on first try. So they are a natural attraction and plane of choice for the cowboys. The 109 and especially the 190 pilots had to have patience just to reach their first kill. Makes sense doesn't it?

I don't think it's about the game or planes as much as it's about each pilot's attitude. I normally fly 190 or 109 but when I feel like going up and slaughtering or being "cowboyish", it take the Spit or La7. I apply my tactics I learnt while flying blue planes and apply them to the red planes and get many more kills. I don't think the game is slanted though.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Respectfully, I don't agree with you. A 190 or 109. IMHO, is a more stable, easier plane to fight with than almost all the later US/Brit planes, except a P-38 since 4.01.

Tvrdi
07-06-2005, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
serious question, is this game slanted towards blue ETO in particular.
I can only use the stats boards to compare. so using the W/C stats here goes what they post.

1.in the top 20 in total kills, 16 of the top 20 are blue
2.in the top 20 k/d ratio, 18 of the top 20 are blue
3.plane comparison with the exception of the 110,111 and F8 all Blue are over a .65 k/d ratio and ALL red are below a .65 k/d ratio ( numbers rounded, page 1 only )

now I'm sure that I'll be called a whiner, maybe so, and I'm sure some will say its the missions, but I find it fasinating what the numbers say. please keep this as a discussion and not a flame war, I really would like to know what your opinions are on the stats, on a side note, who's the Einstein that made the map the has the red team attacking flying 180 straight into a sun on the horizon?!?!?!?! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif maybe they taught us wrong in school all those moons ago I was taught the sun rises 090 and sets 270 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

forgot the links
top kills (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/air/index.html)
K/D Ratio (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=pilots/all/kd/index.html)
plane stats page 1 (http://www.war-clouds.com/wf-stats/index.php?navigation=plane/all/index.html) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

many of us (who are flyin this sim from the beginning) was in red squads and later converted to the blue squads....thats an answer to your question....il2 vet flies in blue and red planes..its very rare occasion that ull see a rookie in blue plane (spec. in FWs)..and ofcourse, like WWSensei said earlier - teams vs single (or team tactic vs crappy one-by-one tactic) wins...not to mention when you fly in online war, or even in dog against a team which is connected via comms....

LStarosta
07-06-2005, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif maybe they taught us wrong in school all those moons ago I was taught the sun rises 090 and sets 270 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You know, Russia is a f*cked up place with all that crazy magnetic deviation and whatnot.

Xiolablu3
07-06-2005, 08:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you are on a dogfight, icons on, server then red is easier to see against the ground, blue is very dark and hard to spot sometimes where the plane exactly is.

This is my explanation, blue is easier to fly for me because of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with that, blue is harder to spot, but then again only almost blind man wouldn't noticed blue arrows on sides of his screen.. so that may be only on pit on + icons on server. Big may be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mean when I am attacking from above, when there is a big red icon I can see excatly where the plane is, when its blue it merges with the background and I cant see it properly.

This especially happens when I'm diving fast on someone and have to work out where he is heading quickly.

csThor
07-06-2005, 08:59 AM
Biased towards blue? No, it isn't.

Let me give you an example of what we see in the DF Server stats. I used to fly Warbirds on the old german server flying for JG 26. We - as a squadron of fifteen to twenty pilots - had a kill/death ratio of 5-6 : 1. That's the average value, we had times when it was 12 or 13 : 1. The first five or six places in the kill/death table were usually occupied by members of our squad ... The list goes on. The reasons for this success were simple:

a) We used team tactics and never flew alone, mostly with one or two Four-Ships. The Allied players never did that with a few notable exceptions.
b) We used voice coms.
c) We were extremely familiar with the planes we flew.
d) We flew with the brain and not the biceps. We didn't do the casual ******** at 500 feet between the two closest airfields, we got up in the distance and made some altitude.

In the end we were accused of being cheaters, of ignoring teammates in need of help, of being arrogant, of being unfair and lastly even our planes were accused of being overmodelled. One day we went Allied and flew Spits to show it's not a matter of FM, but of mindset and tactics (our K/D ratio skyrocketed that night BTW) - it didn't show any result on the Allied player's side (Read: they did not want to learn). And let me tell you one last thing: in WB 2.01 the Axis Aircraft had every flaw displayed and exaggerated, while the Allied aircraft had every advantage displayed and exaggerated.

SeaFireLIV
07-06-2005, 09:03 AM
Be advised that there are a LOT of good disciplined Red Squads out there who`ll take on a disciplined Blue side and batter them. It`s just in general, most kids who can`t be bothered to work as a team, will opt for the `easy` allied planes.

I`ve also seen the situation of 12 Red vs 2 Blue. A stupid situation and I often wonder how the reds can feel with that situation. But then you get a good idea of the type when nearly all 12 are flying after the 1 hapless Blue and crashing into eachother, shooting each other or whining that someone, `Stole their kill`.

I don`t fly Blue, but whenver I see this I will always join the Blue side, no matter what the odds until the sides even out.

SeaFireLIV
07-06-2005, 09:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by csThor:
- it didn't show any result on the Allied player's side (Read: they did not want to learn).. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is important. A lot of the kids who fly with no teaming or discipline are simply this. Then they have the gall to come on the boards and expect their plane to be `fixed` so they can kill multiple bogeys like their heroes in r\l!

Atomic_Marten
07-06-2005, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Atomic_Marten:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xiolablu3:
If you are on a dogfight, icons on, server then red is easier to see against the ground, blue is very dark and hard to spot sometimes where the plane exactly is.

This is my explanation, blue is easier to fly for me because of this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with that, blue is harder to spot, but then again only almost blind man wouldn't noticed blue arrows on sides of his screen.. so that may be only on pit on + icons on server. Big may be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mean when I am attacking from above, when there is a big red icon I can see excatly where the plane is, when its blue it merges with the background and I cant see it properly.

This especially happens when I'm diving fast on someone and have to work out where he is heading quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Use zoom. You do not need to see icon whatsoever once you have spotted him. I have "Toggle FOV" mapped on SPACE button. When I am diving on someone I have him full zoomed all the time. That way I can see what is his heading etc. long before he enters the range of my guns. Other plus is that I can sometimes open fire on over .50k, depending on aircraft and gun type etc.

Hendley
07-06-2005, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The issue about using TS is a funny one for me. I live in China and so I'm a member of the Chinese JG/54 squadron and am the the only foreignor in our squaron. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sorry, OT* You know those guys (or some of them) deliberately and consistently TK players they think are from Japan? Plus they NEVER balance teams. Bad rep squad in our timezone.

FA_Maddog
07-06-2005, 10:00 AM
My two cents is the Axis group flies only two planes from the start to the end of the war in both the Western & Eastern front servers and on line wars, the Bf-109 and FW-190. In the Pacific they fly the Zero. Thus they are very familiar with their ride.

The Allies group flies many different planes in all theaters , Spits, Hurricanes, P-40's, P-51's, P-47's, P-38's, P-39's, Yak's, Mig's, La's, ect. Plus the all the different U.S. Navy birds in the Pacific too. Thus most never really master any one plane.

Stigler_9_JG52
07-06-2005, 11:04 AM
I know that errors in FM/DM and the like aren't limited to any one side, I cannot for the life of me think that, if there is bias, it is slanted toward the Axis. I mean, come ON.

This version 4.01 is the first one ever in which the German MG151/20 cannon has been an effective weapon. Used to be, if you had the Mk108 option, you took it, simply because you knew if you could manage to hit with one of the 65 widely scattering shells in the magazine, at least it would almost certainly have some effect. The MG151/20 might as well have been firing spitballs. Now, it's a capable weapon and you can do some damage in a stock 109G6.

Those of us who've been around since the beginning have watched the cavalcade of overmodelled no-energy-loss UFOs pass from the La5FN to the P-39 family, to the Hurricane II as the various versions and patches have been released. We still see the highly compromised view from the Focke Wulf, and the predominance of stained cockpit glass on 'selected' Axis planes. And who can forget the 109G6 that couldn't climb from early FB?

With all of this, how can anyone say there is a blanket bias in FAVOR of the blue side???

StellarRat
07-06-2005, 11:35 AM
Putting aside the teamwork issues: Since the 4.01 patch the German planes are even better then they already were at low level. Better guns and a greatly improved 190. Most of the American planes aren't good at low level. The only plane that seems to truly competitive is the Spitfire. Even then we didn't get an late model version (XIV) even though the Germans have late 45 planes. There are no in cockpit heavy bombers and no missions that require high alt bombing, so the American planes never get to do what they were designed for, high altitude escort (where they would be very competitive or maybe dominating.)

I used to really enjoy flying the P-47 on WC, but now unless I stay above 5000m all the time it's really useless against the new 190 flight model (unless I catch someone sleeping), as they can out speed, out climb and out manuever me easily now. Now, all I can do is fly an hour above 5000m and see no enemies, (boring) or I can drop down and get shot down. I believe this is all realistic, but it has changed the game more in favor of Blue.

Until we get missions and planes that require high alt flying there will always be a blue slant.

Red would be much better off with an Eastern Front WC server because the Russian planes are excellent low level fighters.

NorrisMcWhirter
07-06-2005, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Hmmm maybe 2 reasons

1 - LW boys run in groups

2 - The Spitfire IX... slow, slow , slow! It is vapourware to the 44 and 45 Luftwaffe.


hmm maybe norris will pop in shortly to exclaim details about VVS over modelling, various curiosities about LaGG DMs and La-7 speeds and how this game is Red bias.. all the while "forgetting" details such as the current FW DM, the BF-109K4 climb speed, prop pitch exploit etc.etc.

Quite the progoganda chief http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

No this game isn't one side biased.. just silly people like to believe it is.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having a pop without your m8 at hand? Unusual, to say the least http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So, you think the Lagg3 DM is/was OK? Hmmm.

As to the 190 DM, feel free to spread misinformation. I've already posted on numerous occasions that there is something wrong with it and it should be rectified.

As to the 109, I wouldn't have said either - I don't fly it.

Nice try, though - close but no cigarillo.

Spit-whiners aside, there should be a distinction made between red Western allies and red VVS as there has always been a bias towards the latter something which, thankfully, has been largely rectified with the corrected 151/20.

As other people have said, if there is a bias towards blue in a DF server then it can only be because they are employing better tactics (or some at all).

Ta,
Norris

anarchy52
07-06-2005, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Q: Is the game slanted towards blue?
A: No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GENIUS PURE GENIUS

no go away or I shall taunt you a second time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sugesting that I lack credibility?
I unclog my nose in your general direction

__
15/JG52_Riddler when flying for the Dark side
CRM_Riddler when flying freedom, democracy and similar stuff

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 03:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
Q: Is the game slanted towards blue?
A: No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GENIUS PURE GENIUS

no go away or I shall taunt you a second time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sugesting that I lack credibility?
I unclog my nose in your general direction

__
15/JG52_Riddler when flying for the Dark side
CRM_Riddler when flying freedom, democracy and similar stuff </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your Mother was a hamster, and you Father smelt of elderberry's pfffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anarchy52
07-06-2005, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
your Mother was a hamster, and you Father smelt of elderberry's pfffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fart in your general direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 03:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by anarchy52:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
your Mother was a hamster, and you Father smelt of elderberry's pfffft http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fart in your general direction http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you tiny brained wiper of other people's bottoms http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

bolillo_loco
07-06-2005, 04:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VFS-22_SPaRX:
You cannot use those stats to guage a plane or pilots performance. What the stats do not track are the "Enemy Aircraft Destroyed" you get when a player lands that you damaged. Since about 50% of all Allied "Kills" are scored in this manner, the stats are not even close to what is actually happening in game.


We are trying to work into the Kill stats a .5 reward for damaging a plane that lands. I have not ETA on when this will be done.

S~ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not expect to see the feature I am about to discribe nor do I know if it is possible. but, the situation you discribed is what happens I have seen it several times. tracking stats in this manner would be a neat feature. when x plane lands after you have damaged it heavily enough to get an "enemy a/c destroyed" message it would be a neat feature if it were counted at "probably destroyed" I have noticed that if I damage an aircraft it says so in the record of my flight. destroyed aircraft are obviously easy to track, you either blew him up, damaged him so badly that he hit the ground and blew up, or he bailed out. so stats that track, destroyed, probably destroyed, and damaged aircraft would be a neat feature.

but its your money and time sparx so do as you please, I was only stating something I thought would be a neat feature, possibly others might also enjoy it. I however have no clue if it is possible.

BSS_CUDA
07-06-2005, 05:17 PM
IIIIIIIIIIIII like it http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

VFS-22_SPaRX
07-06-2005, 05:56 PM
bolillo_loco,

This is exactly what i am trying to do at the moment. But my MySQL abilities are quite lacking. So I need some help getting this done. The data is already collected and sitting there, its just a matter of sorting it out of the tables and putting it into the stats. So, hopefully someone will step up and give me a hand with this.

S!

MEGILE
07-06-2005, 10:42 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

p1ngu holds up my ego, be sure.

Badsight.
07-06-2005, 11:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
I do well on WC, I am one of those 4 reds in the top 20 in kills .................................................. ................., maybe I'm just lucky with the group that I fly with during my time zone. there are 4-6 of us that almost NEVER leave base alone and it always seems to be the same group, we will always look for each other and if 1 or 2 of us gets shot down we will bugout and pick them up on the return flight, we do fly well as a unit.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>you dont see a connection here ?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BSS_CUDA:
but I dont by the blue pilots are all vets and the reds are all noobs theory ( dang another 40 points http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>& you dont understand the difference between :
1)Noobs
&
2)blue works together more than the red flyers

why does any comment against the allied side equate to being a Noob putdown ?

Pirschjaeger
07-07-2005, 12:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hendley:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
The issue about using TS is a funny one for me. I live in China and so I'm a member of the Chinese JG/54 squadron and am the the only foreignor in our squaron. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sorry, OT* You know those guys (or some of them) deliberately and consistently TK players they think are from Japan? Plus they NEVER balance teams. Bad rep squad in our timezone. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can believe it, but it's better I don't add to what you pointed out.

Fritz