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SUPERAEREO
04-16-2006, 02:37 PM
As far as I know practically all mid-upper turrets used by the Allies in WW2 were fitted with interruptor switches or cams which made it impossible for the gunners to hit their own aircraft.

Why is this not modelled in the sim?

I find it rather unrelaistic to open fire on an attacking enemy a/c just to see my rudder go to pieces...

Any chance of seeing this corrected in future patches..?


S!

SUPERAEREO
04-16-2006, 02:37 PM
As far as I know practically all mid-upper turrets used by the Allies in WW2 were fitted with interruptor switches or cams which made it impossible for the gunners to hit their own aircraft.

Why is this not modelled in the sim?

I find it rather unrelaistic to open fire on an attacking enemy a/c just to see my rudder go to pieces...

Any chance of seeing this corrected in future patches..?


S!

stansdds
04-17-2006, 06:48 AM
I agree, an interrupter would be nice.

Deedsundone
04-17-2006, 07:14 AM
No,no,no...how would I duplicate that scene from Indiana Jones 3 then... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SUPERAEREO
04-17-2006, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Deedsundone:
No,no,no...how would I duplicate that scene from Indiana Jones 3 then... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Guess we wouldn't necessarily need to implement it on Axis planes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Seriously: I never found out for sure if He.111 and Ju.87/88 had such a device fitted, although I am quite positive that the Bf.110 did: anyone has prexcise info on Axis aircraft about this?


S!

HotelBushranger
04-17-2006, 10:00 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Speaking of, I just watched the first Indiana Jones http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And the infamous pistol scene http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Platypus_1.JaVA
04-17-2006, 10:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:



Guess we wouldn't necessarily need to implement it on Axis planes... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif

Seriously: I never found out for sure if He.111 and Ju.87/88 had such a device fitted, although I am quite positive that the Bf.110 did: anyone has prexcise info on Axis aircraft about this?


S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

American aircraft had cams and or interuptor gear fitted. Wich may lead to the conclusion that axis gunners where better shots...

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

SUPERAEREO
04-18-2006, 01:36 PM
Erm... no offence to anyone but I was trying to make a serious point here: if you are flying an A-20 all that the enemy needs doing is flying on your 6 and you are almost guaranteed to shoot off your own tailplanes (unless you leave air gunnery to AI that is...).


S!

IIJG69_Kartofe
04-18-2006, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by HotelBushranger:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Speaking of, I just watched the first Indiana Jones http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And the infamous pistol scene http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Junior... We've been hit!" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Maraz_5SA
04-19-2006, 04:30 AM
I believe that almost all aircraft (excluding Indiana Jones's of course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) had either an interruptor or some block that prevented the MG to be pointed towards tail planes or other parts of the aircraft. This was of course a hindrance to gunners that is not implemented in the game, one of the things (together with the need to reload for drum-fed guns) that makes shooting enemy aircraft from gunner positions so easy in this sim.

But to implement this for all aircraft with gunners would be a huge work.

Some patches ago you could not damage your own aircraft (you could shoot the enemy aircraft through your own), now you can, and it is a bit more realistic, unfortunately the AI still can shoot through his own plane.

Maraz

SUPERAEREO
04-20-2006, 02:34 AM
It is not realistic: the mid-upper gunner from an A-20 or a B-25 could NOT shoot off the tailplane from his own aicraft: the guns could not shoot when pointing at it...


S!

The-Pizza-Man
04-20-2006, 03:40 AM
but what is more realistic? Being able to shoot your own tail or being able to shoot through your own tail?

Ideally we wouldn't be able to fire at all in said "guns safe" zones.

Hawgdog
04-20-2006, 06:45 AM
Yup

p1ngu666
04-21-2006, 01:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The-Pizza-Man:
but what is more realistic? Being able to shoot your own tail or being able to shoot through your own tail?

Ideally we wouldn't be able to fire at all in said "guns safe" zones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

apart from the turret guns where blocked individualy. eg the left gun will fire, but the right, if the right one will shoot the tail, but the left one wont.

the problem ingame is the hitboxes or whatever are slightly dodgy, and u hit the tail or whatever when u probably shouldnt..

german planes replied more on manualy aimed, "clip" fed guns in ball and socket mountings.

ju88 and do17 could have 5 or more in the 17, manualy aimed guns for the poor chap in the back. all fed from drums that would emputy with a few seconds fire...

KIMURA
04-21-2006, 03:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:
As far as I know practically all mid-upper turrets used by the Allies in WW2 were fitted with interruptor switches or cams which made it impossible for the gunners to hit their own aircraft.

Why is this not modelled in the sim?

I find it rather unrelaistic to open fire on an attacking enemy a/c just to see my rudder go to pieces...

Any chance of seeing this corrected in future patches..?

S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as related to the B-25 dorsal turret. There were 2 deflectors which prevented the tail gunner from being hit by the ships own fire. There was no trigger that interruped fire in that section.
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/B25-TopTurret-3.jpeg

leitmotiv
04-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Holy blasted tailfeathers, Batman! I don't recall this happening when I played the A-20 turret gunner some time back---you really can blow the dickens out of your fins (and wingtips on the A-20) on both the A-20 and B-25! Wonder if this is new? The only bomber I can state with certainty that had deflectors was the Lancaster. Logic would suggest such a device would be on all turrets, but logic rarely applies! The Handley-Page Hampden had a wire construction on the top of the fuselage which might have been a deflector to prevent the hand-held guns from perforating the fins. This is a legitimate question!!!!

Monguse
04-21-2006, 10:37 AM
Ah a picture of Miss Mitchell!

SUPERAEREO
04-22-2006, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KIMURA:

As far as related to the B-25 dorsal turret. There were 2 deflectors which prevented the tail gunner from being hit by the ships own fire. There was no trigger that interruped fire in that section.
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/B25-TopTurret-3.jpeg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



From "Flying Guns - World War II" by Anthony G. Williams & Dr. Emmanuel Gustin, page 171:

"The B-25 received steel deflectors on top of the fuselage to prevent any damage from the top turret guns to the tail fins, if the interrupter mechanism failed"

AFAIK all American-made upper turrets were fitted with gunfire interrupters.


S!

SUPERAEREO
04-22-2006, 07:08 AM
A quick browse of volume 1 of "British Aircraft Armament" by R. Wallace Clarke confirms that all American-built turrets were fitted with gunfire interrupters.

Defensive turrets were very complicated machines, and compared with problems like assuring smooth movement in every flight attitude and G-load and providing a reliable ammo feed to rotating guns from fixed boxes using heavy cartridge belts, devising and fitting interrupter gear was a relatively simple task.


S!

leitmotiv
04-22-2006, 03:05 PM
In which case the present situation is ridiculous because the aircraft with interrupters, the A-20 and B-25, get their tails shot off, and the hand-held guns, which ought to have risk of shooting tails, are incapable of shooting their tails! Absurd! Thanks for the research SUPERAEREO.

SUPERAEREO
04-22-2006, 07:38 PM
Of the flyable Axis planes D3A1 and He.111 can still shoot their tails off, but the G4M2, all the Stukas and the Ju.88 just let the bullet stream go trough their structure with no damage whatsoever.

In other words they can shoot at you through teir own aircraft, and this behaviour is not limited to AI.

Bf.110 and A-20 seem to get visual damage, the same is for the Il-2 I think (not sure the FM gets affected by the damage in these planes, should try again).

B-25 and Dauntless can easily shoot their control surfaces off with disastrous consequences.

It would be nice if this behaviour could be corrected somehow...


S!

leitmotiv
04-23-2006, 06:49 AM
I found this intriguing enough to spur some experimentation. The TB-3 can be totally destroyed by an amok gunner---pilots and gunners can be killed, wings, tail, fuselage can be shot up, wing tanks can be set on fire, and engines destroyed or set on fire! An IL-2 rear gunner can blow huge holes in the aft fuselage, vertical tail, and horizontal tail. An SBD gunner can blow off the vertical stabilizer, rudder, elevators, and ailerons, and, as well, shoot up both wings. A D3A1 gunner can shoot the vertical tail off completely. A He 111H-2 or -6 dorsal gunner can blow off the rudder and perforate the vertical stab. A Bf 110G rear gunner can perforate the fins. A Ju 87B rear gunner can perforate the vertical stab. Ju 87s D and G produce audible banging but no damage images when the tails are hit. The Ju 88A and G4M1 are invulnerable to tail damage. I seem to recall doing a similar test about a year ago and was not able to damage my own aircraft in any case---could this be from a new patch?

SUPERAEREO
04-29-2006, 03:30 AM
BUMP?

Maraz_5SA
04-29-2006, 03:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
I found this intriguing enough to spur some experimentation. The TB-3 can be totally destroyed by an amok gunner---pilots and gunners can be killed, wings, tail, fuselage can be shot up, wing tanks can be set on fire, and engines destroyed or set on fire! An IL-2 rear gunner can blow huge holes in the aft fuselage, vertical tail, and horizontal tail. An SBD gunner can blow off the vertical stabilizer, rudder, elevators, and ailerons, and, as well, shoot up both wings. A D3A1 gunner can shoot the vertical tail off completely. A He 111H-2 or -6 dorsal gunner can blow off the rudder and perforate the vertical stab. A Bf 110G rear gunner can perforate the fins. A Ju 87B rear gunner can perforate the vertical stab. Ju 87s D and G produce audible banging but no damage images when the tails are hit. The Ju 88A and G4M1 are invulnerable to tail damage. I seem to recall doing a similar test about a year ago and was not able to damage my own aircraft in any case---could this be from a new patch? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes of course, this what I wrote, it was introduced by a patch, do not remember which one though but I believe in the 3.x series

Maraz

Maraz_5SA
04-29-2006, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
In which case the present situation is ridiculous because the aircraft with interrupters, the A-20 and B-25, get their tails shot off, and the hand-held guns, which ought to have risk of shooting tails, are incapable of shooting their tails! Absurd! Thanks for the research SUPERAEREO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I smell Allied whining here... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also hand-held guns had some devices to avoid shooting own aircraft.

Maraz

SUPERAEREO
04-30-2006, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Maraz_5SA:

Also hand-held guns had some devices to avoid shooting own aircraft.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Can you provide any example of such devices Maraz..?

So far I have only heard of traverse and elevation limitators which would physically stop the gunner from pointing his gun towards his own plane, but I ignore how frequent was their use.


S!

SUPERAEREO
05-01-2006, 01:09 AM
Regarding British planes: apart from the (initial production?) Avro Anson, all British made turrets were fitted with rails and interrupters.

Does anybody know for sure if the rear-firing guns on He.111/Ju.87/Ju.88/Bf.110 were fitted with any safety device?


S!

SUPERAEREO
05-05-2006, 08:56 PM
So, does anybody know for sure if the rear-firing guns on He.111/Ju.87/Ju.88/Bf.110 were fitted with any safety device?

Anyone...?

Maraz_5SA
05-06-2006, 06:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SUPERAEREO:


Can you provide any example of such devices Maraz..?

So far I have only heard of traverse and elevation limitators which would physically stop the gunner from pointing his gun towards his own plane, but I ignore how frequent was their use.


S! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just an example, the Cant Z.506B (an aircraft I studied in detail when I made a scale model of it) had a metal rail at the waist guns, shaped as the aircraft tail, so that the gun barrel could not be pointed towards the tail.

Maraz

SUPERAEREO
05-06-2006, 08:45 AM
So had the S.79 for the dorsal gun (which mean that it was physically impossible to point the Breda-Safat towards any plane that was shadowed by a roughly cruciform area behind the tailplane), but what about the MG.15's/MG.81's on He.111 and Ju.88..?

Is it possible that nobody knows anything about it?

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif



S!

horseback
05-06-2006, 11:03 AM
In general, in most purpose-built gunners' positions, there was a cam or interrupt system to prevent damaging your ouwn aircraft. Most of these gun mounts used a Scharff (?) ring to move the gun around the gunner's position, rather than a pintle mount, so a sensor or a simple cam to raise the gun over tailfins and elevators would be fairly practical.

The problem was well known, as it led to the loss of several aircraft early in the First World War. One of my grandfather's favorite stories about WWI was about his younger brother, a machine gunner with an infantry unit being brought in as a gunner on an improvised 'scout' plane. During a demonstration of the gunner's skills, 'little Albion' shot off the most of the tail of his biplane-end of demo, and just coincidentally, Albion's flying career.

cheers

horseback

SUPERAEREO
05-07-2006, 07:36 AM
The Scarff ring your grandfather's brother used was invented in 1915 by a W.O. in the Royal Navy and used in WWI on British, French, Italian ad American planes, but in itself had no disconnector or interrupter.

The twin mounting for the DS on the TB-3 are pretty much Scarff rings themselves.

I suspect that most German 7.92mm gun mountings would have had field of fire limitators that stopped the gun from being pointed anywhere near the airframe, but this would also mean that they would have had to raise the gun above the tailfin in order to traverse it.

Since most MG.15 and MG.81 were mounted in sockets, a gunfire interrupter wouldn't have been a practical proposition.



S!

Nimits
05-07-2006, 12:43 PM
I know SBD gunners were known to shoot up their own stabilizers from time to time . . .

SUPERAEREO
05-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Which could mean either a failure of the interrupter or its absence...


S!