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View Full Version : Creating a new Orochi



Knight_Raime
11-24-2018, 02:43 AM
Like my Centurion dream work post this is aimed at creating practically a new kit. I personally believe that there are several kits in this game that should be basically done from scratch in order to have good characters across the board. But like with my Centurion post this really isn't being aimed at trying to make it into the game. This is more or less just what I think Orochi should be. So lets jump in. First unlike Centurion where I gave him a new identity (grappler) I'm sticking with Orochi's original identity of "blade master." Currently Orochi is designed as a counter attacker and he does decent job in duels. But he overly relies on repeated light chains which is uninteresting, and he has no 4v4 presence. I am to change both of these things.

Chains:
L>H>L
L>L>L
H>L>L
H>L>H
L>H>H
H>H>L
L>H>L

Light neutral's are 500ms in all directions. Lights in chains are 400ms. Light side finishers are 500ms top finisher is 400ms.
Neutral side heavies and heavies in combo are 700ms. Neutral top heavy and side heavy finishers 800ms while top heavy finisher is 700ms.
Neutral side heavies can be soft feinted into a side light finisher from the opposite side. Soft feint is 500ms and considered an enhanced light.
Top heavy opener can be feinted into a sped up light (like zerk) into any direction. Is a combo starter.
Light and heavy finishers can go into the stance. lights go into after the attack is thrown out. Heavy finishers go straight in if held.

Dodge attacks:
Side dodge lights are still 600ms and variable from 200ms-500ms on input. Still undodgable. Can be held to go into stance if light attack lands.
Forward dash light is still 600ms still same variable window. Still undodgable. Can be held to go into stance if light attack lands.
New side dodge heavies that are accessible from stance only. these heavies are 700ms and unblockable. Have dodge property. feintable.
Storm rush remains with the same input. Side attacks are now the same speed as the fastest one at 300ms. Top is still undodgable at the same speed of 500ms. Storm rush gets it's old delayable input window back. Can hold storm rush to go into stance.
Riptide remains with the same input. Same speed. Now has enhanced light property. Can be held to go into the new stance instead.
Both storm rush and riptide now have proper dodge frames.

Deflects:
Orochi retains the same deflects and options. The only difference is Orochi's heavy deflect now executes if landed. (still exact same animation. Just gives him health back for landing it.) and he can combo off of a whiffed hurricane blast. He can also hold the light on his light deflect to go into the stance.

Master stance:

Pardon for the boring name..
All attacks that land can be held to go back into Master stance.
Light side inputs are 500ms and have the enhanced light property. If Orochi attacks into a side attack with this he has a special deflect.
Top light input is 500ms and has the enhanced light property. If orochi attacks into a top attack with this it he has a special deflect. blinds opponent.
Side heavies are 700ms. They're unblockable and feintable. But only after immediately inputting. Has a dodge property.
Top heavy is 700ms. Has dodge property. Unblockable. feintable but only after immediately inputting. Uses the same animation as old riptide strike.
Can't CGB. Can dodge out of the stance. Can't feint out of the stance.
Special deflect Basically just means a dodge property into his light deflect.
Zone attack:
Same speed. Can be comboed off of.

Explanation:

So Orochi is supposed to be the master of the katana according to his video trailer. There for I wanted to reflect this properly in his kit. In my opinion this is reflected in two major ways. His extended combo list and "Master stance." Giving him every 3 hit combo possible means Orochi has access to a wide variety of options as he handles different opponents. Master's stance if you can't tell is heavily influenced by QI stance from Shaolin. But the two are clearly different in terms of roles. QI stance for shaolin is all about punishing his opponent in a wide variety of ways showing off the versatility warrior monks are known for.

In Orochi's Master stance it's more about fluidity and single decisive strikes. This is why his light inputs if timed into attacks let him dodge into a deflect. And this is why his heavies have the dodge property. Making the lights enhanced and heavies unblockable symbolize the single decisive blows. Where as the dodge properties/deflects are symbolizing the fluidity. Now he can go back into master stance from his own attacks. This is powerful. Which is why I made the speeds the way they are and making the feint window the way it is. If orochi commits to any of these attacks he's at risk of being parried (on the 500ms lights) or dodged and then guard broken on the heavies. So orochi needs to read his opponent to see if committing to a heavy is a good idea. Or if throwing a blatent 500ms light would be a safe thing to do.

The changes to his deflects were more quality of life things. And I made sure that he could get into Masters stance frequently but in a way that was more readable than Shaolin's stance. I specifically chose 700ms speeds on heavies so feint into gb isn't a thing on reaction to most of heavies. Speeds in general are put in a way to make things usable but predictable.

Ubiflowessence
11-24-2018, 03:42 AM
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing this! I'd like to read everyone else's thoughts on Orochi as well. Do you agree with the new Orochi or would like to share some of your own ideas?

MarshalMoriarty
11-24-2018, 04:34 AM
Orochi should not have an actual unblockable attack that isn't being powered by momentum (as his deflects are). Non bash unblockables from a standing position require greater raw strength than a finesse character like him should have. And he certainly shouldn't have unblockables in all directions - that is a level of raw power that is beyond all but the most musclebound heroes or else fuelled by rage and psychosis (but I still say Shaman shouldn't have her UB heavy either).

Master's Stance is IMO a bad idea. It gives him power he shouldn't have, when speed and agility are his trademarks. Shaolin already owns that kind of playstyle. I.e great agility but capable of drawing on inner strength to deal powerful blows. Orochi should stick to being about speed and agility.

He should definately have his old Riptide Strike back in addition to the one he has now. And it should have Dodge Property. As many have stated he should have Tozen's kick and only his light openers should be 400ms, not the subsequents lights.

Knight_Raime
11-24-2018, 05:31 AM
This is awesome! Thanks for sharing this! I'd like to read everyone else's thoughts on Orochi as well. Do you agree with the new Orochi or would like to share some of your own ideas?

Thanks. I think my best content that I post here is stuff like this compared to actual balance discussion.

Knight_Raime
11-24-2018, 05:39 AM
Orochi should not have an actual unblockable attack that isn't being powered by momentum (as his deflects are). Non bash unblockables from a standing position require greater raw strength than a finesse character like him should have. And he certainly shouldn't have unblockables in all directions - that is a level of raw power that is beyond all but the most musclebound heroes or else fuelled by rage and psychosis (but I still say Shaman shouldn't have her UB heavy either).

Master's Stance is IMO a bad idea. It gives him power he shouldn't have, when speed and agility are his trademarks. Shaolin already owns that kind of playstyle. I.e great agility but capable of drawing on inner strength to deal powerful blows. Orochi should stick to being about speed and agility.

He should definately have his old Riptide Strike back in addition to the one he has now. And it should have Dodge Property. As many have stated he should have Tozen's kick and only his light openers should be 400ms, not the subsequents lights.

While I don't agree with your general perspective against the changes I think it's noting that the stance (pun deff intended) you're taking is an interesting one on why you're against some things.
I agree that speed/agility are trade marks to him. Which is why I added a lot of dodge properties to his moves. And things like the soft feints to opposite sides showing finesse.

Though i'd argue that single powerful blows are apart of his identity as well. Like two executions that come to mind are his kneel for me and the one where he jumps off of someone to do a drop down decap that's quick and powerful. I understand people really want tozen's kick for his kick. I'm against this for two reasons. The primary reason being the fact that bash based play massively builds revenge in 4's. And the reason to add a bash in for him is so he can actually do something externally. The second reason i'm against it is because I think it takes away from his identity as a blade master. I feel like he'd get in on someone differently.

And maybe unblockables are not the most elegant way a blade master could get in. But imo they more fit the style of him than a bash would. I suppose he could some how use the handle or the guard. But I think that would be too similar to kensei. Orochi to me is finesse, single powerful blows, and mastery of the blade. Hence the unblockables, soft feints, faster attack after feinting, and dodge properties which in some cases lead to a deflect with a dodge property.

I appreciate the feedback though instead of straight dismissing it just because "omg so much stuff too powerful." So thanks for that. (:

MuscleTech12018
11-24-2018, 12:28 PM
Everyone wants a balance between light spams and actual state of the game, this dude wants more light chain combos, undodgeable and UB attacks for Orochi ..... insane :)

Even this forum moderator, just to show he is so leaned towards community praised the post, even tho' he probably understood nothing or even didnt read it... :))

SangLong524
11-24-2018, 01:43 PM
Everyone wants a balance between light spams and actual state of the game, this dude wants more light chain combos, undodgeable and UB attacks for Orochi ..... insane :)

Even this forum moderator, just to show he is so leaned towards community praised the post, even tho' he probably understood nothing or even didnt read it... :))
No need to sound so insulting. Raime is dedicated, which is more than most people around here.
If you have a problem with light, undodgeable and UB individually, then you are just not as good as you may implies to everyone and yourself. The problem with light spam is the speed, coupled with latency. Undodgeable should be blocked or parried. UBs are likely to be canceled into something else.
I count people who can come up with stuffs like this without lacing it with their fiery salted tears and snots on two hands. And i like this orochi. Tbh, current orochis seem lackluster in some way. With this one we can cheese to relax and more avenues to work on in serious games.

Harkorel
11-24-2018, 04:43 PM
Lmao some people ask a refund for some of the OPest classes of this game. Meanwhile, others classes like Raider need a seriously, big buff.
This game is now for noob and spammer.

Seriously wtf happened with damage ? I get 2 shots by knight, valkyrie, JJ. My poor raider have to deal a thousands attacks to make just a little damage. What have you done omg ?
And explain me why the **** Raider is the only ****ing class that doesn't have a guaranty HA ? Orochi, JJ.. they all have a guaranty HA after a GB. That a nonsense to me, this game is so trash now i don't understand.

Knight_Raime
11-24-2018, 09:28 PM
No need to sound so insulting. Raime is dedicated, which is more than most people around here.
If you have a problem with light, undodgeable and UB individually, then you are just not as good as you may implies to everyone and yourself. The problem with light spam is the speed, coupled with latency. Undodgeable should be blocked or parried. UBs are likely to be canceled into something else.
I count people who can come up with stuffs like this without lacing it with their fiery salted tears and snots on two hands. And i like this orochi. Tbh, current orochis seem lackluster in some way. With this one we can cheese to relax and more avenues to work on in serious games.

I appreciate the defense but i'd much rather have you just give feedback on the post. Said poster is a borderline troll so the best way to deal with them is to ignore them.

SangLong524
11-24-2018, 11:35 PM
I appreciate the defense but i'd much rather have you just give feedback on the post. Said poster is a borderline troll so the best way to deal with them is to ignore them.
I like your proposed orochi, lot of options and unblockables without resorting to deflect. I like how Qi-like stance opens up another branch.
i reckon this orochi opener is similar to berzerkers’ non-exisiting opener. Lots of feints and mind games, then. A less safe too. However, what stop people from keeping playing like they are now? L-L-L, those soft feint openers of yours can go right into combo, right? It may not be so bad if you are in full focus but casual game would still be nightmare.
I rather think making light finishers, or most fnishers into unblockables. Light UB finishers will be slower and can not be feinted. So certain set up will be needed. While heavy finishers are even slower but can be feinted. I dont fully comprehend millisecond thingy so i wont a fool of myself to use, so its just some rough idea.
Deflect: i like light deflect as it is now. No need to make it nastier. But heavy deflect should be able to go into stance, hit or not.
Stance: this special deflect need a lot more flare. Something like Tozen’s UB. Or a gauranteed heavy deflect.

MarshalMoriarty
11-25-2018, 12:37 AM
Katanas are intended to cut through bone and necks etc cleanly. It is no indicator of raw power but rather the keen edge coupled with the natural strength any warrrior has. I do not suggest that Orochi is weak, I suggest that unblockables come only from conspicuously strong heroes who are able to put all that brawn behind the blow or reckless souls willing to throw their full weight into a single blow heedless of consequence.

As an example of someone who does not meet such requirements, consider Warlord. A brutishly large chap yes, but his sword (though obviously as lethal as any sword) is a fairly modest one and his shield means he must one hand it. So even with WL's ample muscle, he is not someone who can perform UB attacks. He doesn't have the control of 2 hands as a means to direct that power for an UB. Nor is he as a veteran warrior given to the wild raging style of Raider, Berserker etc.

Which is to say that UB attacks do not suit everyone for a variety of reasons. But both in size and style Orochi is unsuited for UB attacks other than ones that he can naturally produce by momentum. Its the only way he could generate enough power without leaving himself flat footed and open. Orochi essentially fills the role of 'Fast Swordsman'. He is intended to be very mobile, dodging hither and thither. He is not a power character and he also isn't intended to be a feint master. Master of the katana might sound cool and all, but its just an empty tag line. In practice, Kensei is clearly intended to be the 'Swordmaster' style character. Kensei is the dazzling, feinting 'Man of a thousand sword styles' character. Orochi is more of a ninja that uses a sword. Deadly yes, but more reliant on swift movement and spectacular acrobatic feats than a 'stand there and give them their oats' guy like Warden etc.

I also think attacks with dodge properties from a standing position have to be very sparingly used. They need obvious visual cues or people just won't understand it (as a Nobushi player, the amount who just don't seem to understand what HS is properly is frightening). These dodges you propose added to his already full repetoire of dodging moves will utterly infuriate people and are frankly likely to incur the wrath of Shinobi players who will feel that is more his province (and will renew anger over the forward roll and backflip).

Knight_Raime
11-25-2018, 01:52 AM
I like your proposed orochi, lot of options and unblockables without resorting to deflect. I like how Qi-like stance opens up another branch.
i reckon this orochi opener is similar to berzerkers’ non-exisiting opener. Lots of feints and mind games, then. A less safe too. However, what stop people from keeping playing like they are now? L-L-L, those soft feint openers of yours can go right into combo, right? It may not be so bad if you are in full focus but casual game would still be nightmare.
I rather think making light finishers, or most fnishers into unblockables. Light UB finishers will be slower and can not be feinted. So certain set up will be needed. While heavy finishers are even slower but can be feinted. I dont fully comprehend millisecond thingy so i wont a fool of myself to use, so its just some rough idea.
Deflect: i like light deflect as it is now. No need to make it nastier. But heavy deflect should be able to go into stance, hit or not.
Stance: this special deflect need a lot more flare. Something like Tozen’s UB. Or a gauranteed heavy deflect.

Yes the top heavy neutral feint to faster light is pulled from berzerker. Just no armor. That light is a combo starter like zerks.
The soft feint lights from the opening side heavies are treated as finishers. So you can just do the heavy soft feint into side light and end your aggression there. OR if you hold the light input after the light comes out you go into the master stance.

Nothing physically prevents people from doing so. But I took a more proactive choice with the design. Instead of limiting him to force a specific way I chose to stack options that would hopefully entice people to use them. Similar to shaolin where you can absolutely only do tripple side lights and dodge attacks. But his qi stance moves are very fun and rewarding. so people try to use those most of the time as well.

Yeah stacking the ability to go into masters stance off of deflect is probably a bit over kill. But I do think the other changes I mentioned should go in as they're just a QoL thing to hopefully encourage deflects. But I can see dropping it all except for the execute on hurricane blast should most of my other choices go through.

As I mentioned in a different reply I avoided adding a bash for orochi as I don't think it fits his style as blade master. and as is kits who rely on bashes are pretty screwed in 4's due to how revenge gain works. I could specifiy the special deflect to be the heavy deflect. Not a bad idea.

MarshalMoriarty
11-25-2018, 02:23 AM
If kicking people during a sword fight is good enough for Darth Maul, who are you to argue?

Seriously though, that's kind of the point. He's not a pure blademaster and more of a ninja. His feats are full of dirty tricks and it would be more strange if he didn't know and incorporate martial arts, given the skills he already shows. Kensei is the honorable blademaster, not Orochi.