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View Full Version : Aramusha is a good hero.



Georg_Reshetov
11-21-2018, 07:33 PM
Alright. I said it. As an Aramusha main since marching Fire, I realized it. He ain't too bad.

I know this will start a ton of salt from other Aramusha mains, but I'll explain it anyway.

1. Good openers
2. Debunking the backdodge theory
3. Strong mindgames
4. strong defense
5. high damage
6. fast attacks
7. Rework
8. why people say he is bad
9. conclusion

1. good openers:
i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. You use it to start your combos. Many say that an opener needs to be a 50/50 which guarantees damage and be in the middle of an attack, but these are not openers, but just attacks. An opener is for example PKs first light, Kenseis top heavy or raiders side heavy. Orochis zone isn't an opener but an attack because you can't keep going with your combos after throwing it. Everything clear? Good.
Aramusha has 3 good openers.
a) His forward dash Heavy:
It has hyper armor, a ton of range, has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break. Thus most people will just block it and this is exactly what you want as an Aramusha. After the dash attack gets blocked, you can start your deadly feints by just doing another top heavy (before his rework, if you threw a dash attack, you would just throw your first heavy. I think this wasn't listed in the patch notes and basically no one knows that) and there you go: you opened up the enemy. If the enemy starts to understand what you're doing and starts to parry your dash heavy, bait him and feint it to a gb. you just created your very own 50/50 opener, either let it fly and go to your combos or feint it to a gb, do a top heavy and then go to your combos. Considering that this is a stupid idea, from the enemies perspective, he will just block it after some time and you will go to your combos. this is actually a very strong opener, considering it's immense range, which will beat high range heroes, and it's hyper armour which makes it impossible to hit you out of it. If you're an Aramusha main and never thought of this opener, use it. a lot. after some time of getting used to it, explain to me again then, how he has no openers.
b) His zone:
other then orochis or kenseis zone, his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage. why people complain? because "the first part is ez parry!" but this is wrong. 500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc. if he throws his zones randomly, it becomes very hard to react to it (of course, if he spams it like 80% of all aramushas, then it's going to be easy) and even if you can react to the indicators then too, he could just throw a side heavy from the same direction instead, which would hit the enemy, if they would've tried to parry the zone. this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community.
Well, although his zone is a good attack, it's not necessarily a good opener, considering that only one part of its 50/50 leads to further attacks. on the other hand though, it deals 35 hecking damage, which is good enough for one offensive.
c) his first lights:
yes you heard me correct, his lights are good openers. I found out from a youtube video that he can throw lights from opposite directions with barely any delay, same as all assassins but he is the only static guard hero who can do that, and this makes his first lights as hard to react as orochis first lights or gladiators first light or any other assassin, you get the deal. for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast.

2: Debunking the backdodge theory:
Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this.
Here's the video to it: https://youtu.be/LKfyFa0UD2s
this means, that he can counter everything the enemy tries while he does his deadly feints, and this brings us to part 3.

3: strong mindgames:
this leads to the enemy constantly being on pressure on what they're going to do. throwing another chain light in your mid combo also beat all dodge attempts and the very high rewards of actually catching a backdodging enemy (40 dmg) makes it very unlikely that they will try to dodge away all too often. This leads to his deadly feints (which are a 33/33/33 for the enemy because he needs to guess correctly which side you'll go with, thus a 66% chance of hitting the enemy) being very strong attacks and forces the enemy to do a lot of reads. Also, if we add all other possibilities and reads, then we get around a 50% chance for the aramusha to hit the enemy and an average damage of around 25 per correct read. that means, if aramusha guesses correct 3 times correct in a row, if the enemy and aramusha would guess randomly what they're gonna do, aramusha would do 75 damage in around 4 seconds. mathematically speaking, he is strong. but practically he is even stronger, considering that basically no one can do this (neither the ara nor the enemy) in such a pressure and speed, thus his deadly feint 33/33/33 with an average damage output of 26,66 are his main combos with additional backdodge catching.

Tldr: his mindgames are good but complicated as hell.

4: strong defense:
Blade blockade is one of the best defensive options in the game. to hold it simple, it beats light spam by just doing it in the middle of someones combo. his recovery is also so fast that you cannot guard break him out of his blockade on reaction. if you would try, you would end up getting hit by a side heavy. if you would try to bait the ara and then go for a gb, the ara could just try to parry normally and beat the gb attempts because his heavies have absolutely no guard break vulerability, which makes it also super safe to try to parry unblockables (just be aware that his top heavy is might too fast to feint on reaction).
Only problem is his slow walk speed which makes dodging quite hard, but you'll get used to it.

5: High damage:
his zone does 50 damage. his blade blockade punish is 30 - 50 damage. his OOS parry punish is 85(!). Guessing incorrect in his deadly feints, leads to an average of 26 damage (in comparision, conquerors 50/50 (16% higher chance of reading correctly for the enemy) only does 19 average damage.).
Do i need to add anything? i don't think so.

6: Fast attacks:
His deadly feint lights are 400ms and can be delayed, thus they are unreactable on all platforms. say whatever you want, but only 0,1% of the entire community can regularly parry 333ms attacks. to say that he is trash because 0,1% of the community can block him on reaction is just laughable. also, everything else he has is also quite fast, he has no 600 ms lights.

7: Rework:
His recent rework in season 8 was a BUFF. It made his dash attack a proper opener (before his rework, it would only lead to his first heavy, not his second), it made his damage values better and his deadly feints more viable. I know, i know, his side heavy doesn't guarantee a top light anymore, but it does far more damage now. although his normal side heavy from neutral does now 2 less damage (which is no difference anyway), his wallsplat side heavy always only did 33dmg and now it does the proper damage of his side heavies, making his blockade into kick actually somewhat viable. His deadly feint side lights don't guarantee a top light anymore, but now they are 400ms. before his rework, they were actually blockable or even parryable on reaction for many people, especially on pc but now, since they are unreactable, they shouldn't do 35 damage. imagine berserkers heavy feint to light would do 35 damage. Many people complain that you can just backdodge his deadly feints = nerf but 1. i debunked that and second, it was the same before his rework too, so i don't understand how it can be seen as a nerf. another thing changed are his chain lights. because his top chain light is now 500 ms which is honesly a great change. why? because first, it reduces the light spam strenght, thus the aramusha needs actual skill to beat the enemy and second, aramusha was completely BROKEN against any assassin. it was many times impossible to block aramusha, even when you knew where his lights would come from. it's no wonder why he has a high win percentage against all assassins on season 7. im happy that they changed this, this also makes him less overpowered in low level fights which is exactly what the devs were looking for.
In total, i think its fair to call it a rework, because of how much his moves and his playstyle has changed. it's also a buff, because most of his changes were positive ones and his infinite light nerf was basically unavoidable, considering how broken it was.

8: why people say he is bad:
Because they don't know his full potential. they think all he has is light spam and when they hear that his light spam got nerfed, they think that he got nerfed. its also bad that many of his moves arent even listed in his moveset, for example before his buff that he would get a free top light from any side heavy or that his blockade stun, would make guard breaks invisible. i think people just need to learn him far more and discover all the great things he has. i bet that many who are reading this also thought that ara is bad but didn't knew at least 2 things that i have listed here.

tldr: git gud.

9: conclusion:
Aramusha is (in my opinion of course) a good hero, a viable hero, a competitive hero. im not suprised where he stood in the duel win matrix of season 7 and 6 and i'm quite sure that he will rise even higher when we get the matrix for season 8.
if you're an aramusha main and still think that he is trash, think about all the potential that he has, think about all the great things i listed and ask yourself:
"Am I out of touch? no, it's the other heroes who are strong".

Blitzwarrior771
11-21-2018, 08:10 PM
Out of all bots lvl 3 aramusha is the strongest one . Light attacks always win take orochi for example its simple build light light light and light attacks all day long . No wonder he is the top pick in this game for veteran players . You move he light light you move he light light . Only idiots would argue otherwise about aramusha .

Devils-_-legacy
11-21-2018, 08:24 PM
Out of all bots lvl 3 aramusha is the strongest one . Light attacks always win take orochi for example its simple build light light light and light attacks all day long . No wonder he is the top pick in this game for veteran players . You move he light light you move he light light . Only idiots would argue otherwise about aramusha .
I dont agree with OP about aramusha but he wasn't the top pick at s6 the last pick rate released he was only at 3.8%(4v4) and 3.4% (1v1) well raider was at 10.5% with the highest for 4v4 and orochi was top pick for duel at 11%

Blitzwarrior771
11-21-2018, 08:36 PM
Yup and numbers donít lie itís all about data . Is raider the best hero in game ?

Georg_Reshetov
11-21-2018, 08:40 PM
Yup and numbers donít lie itís all about data . Is raider the best hero in game ?
Data wise, he is one of the worst heroes, so no.

Devils-_-legacy
11-21-2018, 08:43 PM
No wonder he is the top pick in this game for veteran players

Were did i say that i just told you he wasnt the top pick rate

Baggin_
11-21-2018, 08:54 PM
I do agree that Aramusha is a bit underrated. However he does need some things to help him out a bit. A dodge attack would be nice, as well as the ability to deadly feint his zone for example. Heís super anti gank though, which I think some people donít realize.

Blitzwarrior771
11-21-2018, 09:11 PM
Were did i say that i just told you he wasnt the top pick rate

You pull out the data and numbers why ? To show that aramusha sucks that he is not top pick ? Then raider must be the best because he is a top pick . Itís actually developers who monitor the data and tweak the game according to the numbers . You know the answer and your question is really hypocritical .

Devils-_-legacy
11-21-2018, 09:23 PM
You pull out the data and numbers why ? To show that aramusha sucks that he is not top pick ? Then raider must be the best because he is a top pick . Itís actually developers who monitor the data and tweak the game according to the numbers . You know the answer and your question is really hypocritical .

To disprove your statement that he's the top pick for veteran players he's not raiders is one of the best ganks in 4v4 due to target switching his easy access to his unblockable that's why he's one of the top picks in a 4v4b were as 1v1 he sucks as you light him out of his mix ups. I think everyone knows that? but as a player it still good to see the data to see where the devs are comming from with there changes. To the op I think the buff to aramusha df was a start but he still fells like his kit is too simple I wouldnt call him a good hero compared to the bench marks with great kits like Kensie shaman and shoalin

Blitzwarrior771
11-21-2018, 09:38 PM
Aramusha hybrid difficulty medium , fast attacks , feint , counter attacks . Raider vanguard difficulty easy adaptable lol and straightforward it seems that raider is more appealing to the masses ? You know top pick ? Is data relevant or irrelevant in this game that is the topic for itself . But Iím sure that masses would agree that aramusha needs a nerf . How many raiders would support me on this ?

Lord_Cherubi
11-21-2018, 10:53 PM
I picked him up when MF launched as well and i don't think he's nowhere near as bad as people point him out to be. Blade blockade and deadly faints are devastating tools, you just have to play smart with him.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-21-2018, 11:37 PM
Aramusha and conc level three bots should be the only bots given to a team if someone backs out of a team game like breach or dominion.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2018, 02:20 AM
Oof. No he isn't:

"A opener is a combo initiator."

No. Openers are something that reliably gets you damage. You're talking about a chain starter. that is not the same thing. Warden's shoulder bash is an opener. So is berzerker's feinted into light.

"has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break."

The feint window is 400ms just like basically every other hard feint and soft feint. You can delay the feint up to 400ms. But it's still always 400ms. Second option select. They rest their guard up top and throw a zone when they think is the proper parry time. Either their timing is correct and they parry it or they get it incorrect/you feint or don't and you eat the zone. Not every hero has access to a zone that can do this. But a lot can.

"you just created your very own 50/50 opener."

50/50's can't be reacted to/can't be beaten by a single option. Feinting your dash heavy to GB is beaten by option selecting and is there for not an opener or a 50/50.

"his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage."

Block in the direction of the attack. and walk backwards. Zone has basically no tracking. They're 100% safe. if you feint into GB they can tech. if you feint into a dash they can block. The unblockable portion is only a threat if Mushu's current target is near OOS or OOS. Beyond that it's okay to use when target switching.

"500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc."

No, they aren't.

"this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community."

Centurion's heavies are considered safe because of the variable timing and ability to soft feint into GB. Zone's timing is the exact same timing every time and has no soft feint to threaten with.

"for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast."

That just makes them slightly harder to react to. It's not an opener because blocking shuts it out. You can also slightly delay deadly feint. That doesn't mean it actually does anything super beneficial.

"Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this."

No you didn't. You posted this in the competitive sub and got laughed out because what you covered for the most part was already debunked by another person who happens to be one of the best players in the game. And as people told you there even if half of what you shows works in any sembalance Aramusha is still being forced to make 2-3 proper reads on the opponent for an action that's supposed to force his opponent to play a mind game. One which they don't have to play because back dashing gets you out of the game of trying to correctly block/parry the follow up from deadly feint. Back dodge and buffering the guard switch during it will block majority of what mushu can do.

"strong mindgames"

There are no mind games with aramusha. You block all of his in combo lights because they're 500ms with 200ms buffers in between each. His heavies are telegraphed enough via using both of his swords to hit and his heavy finishers even more so. The only mind game he would have is revolved around deadly feints. Which people don't have to deal with because back dashing avoids the deadly feint mix up. Even if back dashing wasn't a thing anyone with SB on dodge or having access to some kind of deflect can easily dodge into any of your comboed lights to chunk you. The actual mind games he used to have were scrapped because they got rid of the special hit stun he had on deadly feinted lights. That and the change to the 200ms in between each attack basically killed is top heavy after BB mix up. And then nerfing his top light to 500ms was just a slap to the face.

"strong defense"

Blade blockade being nearly instant is indeed a good counter for spam. Too bad spam isn't effective at all in higher tier play. Buffering your BB is just going to get guard broken or a heavy to the face. You're over selling the recovery. You can absolutely GB BB on reaction if you have a tight reaction. (which is known as the 300ms sweet spot.) Mid tier and low tier will not have this.
High tier absolutely does. And even if you couldn't grab it on reaction it's still very baitable. Both his slow walk speed and the fact that his back dodge is worse than everyone elses makes him even more bad.

"High damage"

His high damage for the most part came from the devs changes. Which only happened because they believed he was too strong in low tier. And guess what? the damage buff made him even worse for low tier players and does nothing for high tier players beyond decent chip damage. That's literally the only good thing high tier got from his changes.

"Fast attacks."

He only has 400ms attacks which are locked behind a combo that you have to whiff into more often than not which makes you punishable. And people don't need to react to the 400ms attack when you back dodge on the deadly feint heavy. Not the attack that comes after. If people couldn't back dash then it would be a strength for him. But only really against reflex heros. As standard heros can buffer a guard switch during hit stun so they'll likely block any follow up you do.

"Rework"

Was only a buff for him in low tier, where he didn't need it, and maybe mid tier. High mid tier and high tier got nothing substantial besides extra chip damage. They killed his actual mix up potential by slowing combo attacks down, making all lights 500ms, and getting rid of the special hit stun on side heavies and deadly feinted side lights. Sure everything he does hits harder now.
But that really doesn't matter when all of it is either reactable or avoidable with a single action.

"why people say he is bad"

He's bad because he can't keep up pressure on someone who spaces because his walk speed is trash. And any chase down moves he has are poor minus the top heavy dash. But again that's simply option selected. He's bad because he has no reliable way to open someone up. His best chance at doing so is throwing a zone. But you can't do that because of how stamina intensive it is. Which mean's his only reliable way into his combo is by whiffing into it. Which is something that's punishable on any hero with prediction. He's bad because his back dodge can't even be used situationally to avoid something due to worse recovery than everyone else. Finally he's bad because half of his move list is locked behind Blade blockade. Which entirely relies on your opponent to make a mistake, and your reward for landing is often not as strong as what you'd get from a parry (especially not now that they mega buffed his heavies.) Not to mention parry attempts are always safer than attempting to BB and his BB moves are not accessible with the rest of his kit.

Aramusha is a completely servicable hero for most of the population. The tier list doesn't apply to a majority of the players in this game. And even good players can win with bad kits. None of this changes the fact that his kit is badly designed. People don't need to "get good" and learn him. The high tier players know everything there is to know about aramusha. Kudos to coming to the forums though. You weren't happy with being told you were wrong in the competitive sub so you came here expecting people not being able to argue back due to a lack of information.

Here's a bit of advise. If you like aramusha. play him. Don't care about what others think about your main. If you like him and you're doing well with him that's all that matters.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2018, 02:32 AM
Aramusha hybrid difficulty medium , fast attacks , feint , counter attacks . Raider vanguard difficulty easy adaptable lol and straightforward it seems that raider is more appealing to the masses ? You know top pick ? Is data relevant or irrelevant in this game that is the topic for itself . But Iím sure that masses would agree that aramusha needs a nerf . How many raiders would support me on this ?

Raider is a top pick in 4's because of his 50 damage unblockable that can be made to be unparryable via target switching. He also can interrupt his dodge with a GB which lets him punish things most hero's typically can't. And he has stampede charge/stun tap. Both of which are high stamina damage attacks which severely limit someone's ability to mix up/defend in a gank/team fight often putting them OOS which makes them basically dead if they get on the ground since stunning tap into zone is 100% confirmed for 60+ damage. and that's WITH another ally doing a heavy attack on top of it.

Aramusha brings nothing substantial to a team fight. He was alright at target swapping back when his attacks had 100ms between each of them. Now that everyone of them has 200ms it's a lot easier to external block aramusha's comboed attacks.

EvoX.
11-22-2018, 05:20 AM
https://image.ibb.co/gQ7oFV/Screenshot-2018-11-22-Aramusha-is-a-good-hero-View-Poll-Results.png

Lmao, good stuff.

Blitzwarrior771
11-22-2018, 06:31 AM
aramusha spams light attacks worst then orochi or maybe Iím just blind those were all heavy attacks.

KWi_08j
11-22-2018, 06:59 AM
Raider is a top pick in 4's because of his 50 damage unblockable that can be made to be unparryable via target switching. He also can interrupt his dodge with a GB which lets him punish things most hero's typically can't. And he has stampede charge/stun tap. Both of which are high stamina damage attacks which severely limit someone's ability to mix up/defend in a gank/team fight often putting them OOS which makes them basically dead if they get on the ground since stunning tap into zone is 100% confirmed for 60+ damage. and that's WITH another ally doing a heavy attack on top of it.

Aramusha brings nothing substantial to a team fight. He was alright at target swapping back when his attacks had 100ms between each of them. Now that everyone of them has 200ms it's a lot easier to external block aramusha's comboed attacks.

I wish the admins would push this to the team to let them know where aramusha really stands at. He is my main I donít want him overpowered but something to make him at least decent. I get good results but thatís because of my opponent themselves feeling overwhelmed and panic trying to get parries or fall for deadly feint delay. Zone doesnít work unless you are ganking Iíve been parried off the first swing of it.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2018, 08:58 AM
I wish the admins would push this to the team to let them know where aramusha really stands at. He is my main I don’t want him overpowered but something to make him at least decent. I get good results but that’s because of my opponent themselves feeling overwhelmed and panic trying to get parries or fall for deadly feint delay. Zone doesn’t work unless you are ganking I’ve been parried off the first swing of it.

Was referring to the fact that if your first zone hit does land you can target swap to drop the UB version on someone not expecting it.
it's not the BEST thing but it's okay. Probably the most contribution he can give in a team fight.

Blitzwarrior771
11-22-2018, 09:56 AM
Poor aramusha he canít give much contribution in a team fight but he is good 1v1 or worst then a raider Iím still confused. Fast attacks feints and counterattackís is exactly what new meta is in this game . Just from description you feel like he is the ultimate hero who never retreats and who punish every small mistakes. How many of us panic seeing aramusha ? I think give aramusha faster fast attacks that would fix him .

Blitzwarrior771
11-22-2018, 09:58 AM
Now I really wonder why of all heroís only aramusha was reworked with marching fire 🤔

Blitzwarrior771
11-22-2018, 10:20 AM
we could compromise buff aramusha on pc and nerf aramusha on consoles 🤔oh that would never work .

Siegfried-Z
11-22-2018, 11:55 AM
Alright. I said it. As an Aramusha main since marching Fire, I realized it. He ain't too bad.

I know this will start a ton of salt from other Aramusha mains, but I'll explain it anyway.

1. Good openers
2. Debunking the backdodge theory
3. Strong mindgames
4. strong defense
5. high damage
6. fast attacks
7. Rework
8. why people say he is bad
9. conclusion

1. good openers:
i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. You use it to start your combos. Many say that an opener needs to be a 50/50 which guarantees damage and be in the middle of an attack, but these are not openers, but just attacks. An opener is for example PKs first light, Kenseis top heavy or raiders side heavy. Orochis zone isn't an opener but an attack because you can't keep going with your combos after throwing it. Everything clear? Good.
Aramusha has 3 good openers.
a) His forward dash Heavy:
It has hyper armor, a ton of range, has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break. Thus most people will just block it and this is exactly what you want as an Aramusha. After the dash attack gets blocked, you can start your deadly feints by just doing another top heavy (before his rework, if you threw a dash attack, you would just throw your first heavy. I think this wasn't listed in the patch notes and basically no one knows that) and there you go: you opened up the enemy. If the enemy starts to understand what you're doing and starts to parry your dash heavy, bait him and feint it to a gb. you just created your very own 50/50 opener, either let it fly and go to your combos or feint it to a gb, do a top heavy and then go to your combos. Considering that this is a stupid idea, from the enemies perspective, he will just block it after some time and you will go to your combos. this is actually a very strong opener, considering it's immense range, which will beat high range heroes, and it's hyper armour which makes it impossible to hit you out of it. If you're an Aramusha main and never thought of this opener, use it. a lot. after some time of getting used to it, explain to me again then, how he has no openers.
b) His zone:
other then orochis or kenseis zone, his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage. why people complain? because "the first part is ez parry!" but this is wrong. 500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc. if he throws his zones randomly, it becomes very hard to react to it (of course, if he spams it like 80% of all aramushas, then it's going to be easy) and even if you can react to the indicators then too, he could just throw a side heavy from the same direction instead, which would hit the enemy, if they would've tried to parry the zone. this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community.
Well, although his zone is a good attack, it's not necessarily a good opener, considering that only one part of its 50/50 leads to further attacks. on the other hand though, it deals 35 hecking damage, which is good enough for one offensive.
c) his first lights:
yes you heard me correct, his lights are good openers. I found out from a youtube video that he can throw lights from opposite directions with barely any delay, same as all assassins but he is the only static guard hero who can do that, and this makes his first lights as hard to react as orochis first lights or gladiators first light or any other assassin, you get the deal. for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast.

2: Debunking the backdodge theory:
Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this.
Here's the video to it: https://youtu.be/LKfyFa0UD2s
this means, that he can counter everything the enemy tries while he does his deadly feints, and this brings us to part 3.

3: strong mindgames:
this leads to the enemy constantly being on pressure on what they're going to do. throwing another chain light in your mid combo also beat all dodge attempts and the very high rewards of actually catching a backdodging enemy (40 dmg) makes it very unlikely that they will try to dodge away all too often. This leads to his deadly feints (which are a 33/33/33 for the enemy because he needs to guess correctly which side you'll go with, thus a 66% chance of hitting the enemy) being very strong attacks and forces the enemy to do a lot of reads. Also, if we add all other possibilities and reads, then we get around a 50% chance for the aramusha to hit the enemy and an average damage of around 25 per correct read. that means, if aramusha guesses correct 3 times correct in a row, if the enemy and aramusha would guess randomly what they're gonna do, aramusha would do 75 damage in around 4 seconds. mathematically speaking, he is strong. but practically he is even stronger, considering that basically no one can do this (neither the ara nor the enemy) in such a pressure and speed, thus his deadly feint 33/33/33 with an average damage output of 26,66 are his main combos with additional backdodge catching.

Tldr: his mindgames are good but complicated as hell.

4: strong defense:
Blade blockade is one of the best defensive options in the game. to hold it simple, it beats light spam by just doing it in the middle of someones combo. his recovery is also so fast that you cannot guard break him out of his blockade on reaction. if you would try, you would end up getting hit by a side heavy. if you would try to bait the ara and then go for a gb, the ara could just try to parry normally and beat the gb attempts because his heavies have absolutely no guard break vulerability, which makes it also super safe to try to parry unblockables (just be aware that his top heavy is might too fast to feint on reaction).
Only problem is his slow walk speed which makes dodging quite hard, but you'll get used to it.

5: High damage:
his zone does 50 damage. his blade blockade punish is 30 - 50 damage. his OOS parry punish is 85(!). Guessing incorrect in his deadly feints, leads to an average of 26 damage (in comparision, conquerors 50/50 (16% higher chance of reading correctly for the enemy) only does 19 average damage.).
Do i need to add anything? i don't think so.

6: Fast attacks:
His deadly feint lights are 400ms and can be delayed, thus they are unreactable on all platforms. say whatever you want, but only 0,1% of the entire community can regularly parry 333ms attacks. to say that he is trash because 0,1% of the community can block him on reaction is just laughable. also, everything else he has is also quite fast, he has no 600 ms lights.

7: Rework:
His recent rework in season 8 was a BUFF. It made his dash attack a proper opener (before his rework, it would only lead to his first heavy, not his second), it made his damage values better and his deadly feints more viable. I know, i know, his side heavy doesn't guarantee a top light anymore, but it does far more damage now. although his normal side heavy from neutral does now 2 less damage (which is no difference anyway), his wallsplat side heavy always only did 33dmg and now it does the proper damage of his side heavies, making his blockade into kick actually somewhat viable. His deadly feint side lights don't guarantee a top light anymore, but now they are 400ms. before his rework, they were actually blockable or even parryable on reaction for many people, especially on pc but now, since they are unreactable, they shouldn't do 35 damage. imagine berserkers heavy feint to light would do 35 damage. Many people complain that you can just backdodge his deadly feints = nerf but 1. i debunked that and second, it was the same before his rework too, so i don't understand how it can be seen as a nerf. another thing changed are his chain lights. because his top chain light is now 500 ms which is honesly a great change. why? because first, it reduces the light spam strenght, thus the aramusha needs actual skill to beat the enemy and second, aramusha was completely BROKEN against any assassin. it was many times impossible to block aramusha, even when you knew where his lights would come from. it's no wonder why he has a high win percentage against all assassins on season 7. im happy that they changed this, this also makes him less overpowered in low level fights which is exactly what the devs were looking for.
In total, i think its fair to call it a rework, because of how much his moves and his playstyle has changed. it's also a buff, because most of his changes were positive ones and his infinite light nerf was basically unavoidable, considering how broken it was.

8: why people say he is bad:
Because they don't know his full potential. they think all he has is light spam and when they hear that his light spam got nerfed, they think that he got nerfed. its also bad that many of his moves arent even listed in his moveset, for example before his buff that he would get a free top light from any side heavy or that his blockade stun, would make guard breaks invisible. i think people just need to learn him far more and discover all the great things he has. i bet that many who are reading this also thought that ara is bad but didn't knew at least 2 things that i have listed here.

tldr: git gud.

9: conclusion:
Aramusha is (in my opinion of course) a good hero, a viable hero, a competitive hero. im not suprised where he stood in the duel win matrix of season 7 and 6 and i'm quite sure that he will rise even higher when we get the matrix for season 8.
if you're an aramusha main and still think that he is trash, think about all the potential that he has, think about all the great things i listed and ask yourself:
"Am I out of touch? no, it's the other heroes who are strong".

First, it's nice to see someone who has taken time to really feel how it goes to play Musha.

I play on console and i've always did good with him. I have better stats with him than with Warden for example.

Like you said i just think people didn't realize his real potential.. on the paper he can looks very limited with 500ms chain with a template and vids showing his deadly feints are dead.. but they are so much more and it feels so different to play him.

To respond to few points :

I never had problem to open someone with him. I use a lot his top heavy Dash to open people and it works a lot. But i'm not feinting too much into GB, more doing Top Dash into Zone feinted for light.
As you said his lights, used with a smart timing are doing the job to open sometimes too.
About hus zone, i would just point it would be nice too have softfeint mix up there.. because now it is a bit too slow and have a high stam consumption ;)

About his defense, yes he is very very good ! I would say as Musha doesn't have side Dodge attacks, it let you focus on your defense and to CGB in Gank situation. His infinite chain, used properly with target switching (with lights, heavy and feint mix up) is insanly good !

I would add his parry punish, he's got a 25dmg top heavy which can chain on heavy parry wish is among the best heavy parry follow up of the game.

Would just end it with few adjustments on his Blade Blocade.
This moove is very good at punishing spam (love to blade blocade Roch's during light chain). But it works very well on many mooves a lot of players do, some example :

Zerk lights after his zone is a guaranteed blade blocade
Zerk lights after a heavy in his combo

WL light after a feinted heavy : they all do this

Shaman bleed dagger softfeint after zone first part

Kensei lights after dodge attack

These mooves are almost guaranteed BB without too many risks.

But about the dmg you do with BB i disagree, you said between 30-50. But the 30dmg top heavy is only guaranteed against assassins and 50 you speak about the UB i gess but it never works.
Against char with fix guard i use the pommel strike which does 15dmg plus stun and stam drain or the kick if there is a wall, fire, peaks or hole ^^.

Musha also has strong feats ! Second one which allow you to almost never been max punish is insane and the 3rd and 4th combo with sharpend blade and debuff zone is a 3 lights kill !

I'm only rep 6 with Musha and play only 4v4 on console and i do as good with him as with my Rep 17 Valk.

Siegfried-Z
11-22-2018, 12:01 PM
I forgot to add :
Musha doesn't feed too much opponent revenge bar because he doesn't relly on bash and used correctly opponent aren't blocking that much.
His top Dash heavy is also very good for thread when you're opponent is closed to be dead and gonna react 90% of times with a zone of kind of fast attack;)

Georg_Reshetov
11-22-2018, 06:44 PM
I forgot to add :
Musha doesn't feed too much opponent revenge bar because he doesn't relly on bash and used correctly opponent aren't blocking that much.
His top Dash heavy is also very good for thread when you're opponent is closed to be dead and gonna react 90% of times with a zone of kind of fast attack;)
Thanks for the feedback :) it's soooo rare that I get actual positivite or constructive criticism or someone who actually understands my point.

And yes, I was wrong about the blade blockade.

Georg_Reshetov
11-22-2018, 07:00 PM
Oof. No he isn't:

"A opener is a combo initiator."

No. Openers are something that reliably gets you damage. You're talking about a chain starter. that is not the same thing. Warden's shoulder bash is an opener. So is berzerker's feinted into light.

"has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break."

The feint window is 400ms just like basically every other hard feint and soft feint. You can delay the feint up to 400ms. But it's still always 400ms. Second option select. They rest their guard up top and throw a zone when they think is the proper parry time. Either their timing is correct and they parry it or they get it incorrect/you feint or don't and you eat the zone. Not every hero has access to a zone that can do this. But a lot can.

"you just created your very own 50/50 opener."

50/50's can't be reacted to/can't be beaten by a single option. Feinting your dash heavy to GB is beaten by option selecting and is there for not an opener or a 50/50.

"his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage."

Block in the direction of the attack. and walk backwards. Zone has basically no tracking. They're 100% safe. if you feint into GB they can tech. if you feint into a dash they can block. The unblockable portion is only a threat if Mushu's current target is near OOS or OOS. Beyond that it's okay to use when target switching.

"500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc."

No, they aren't.

"this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community."

Centurion's heavies are considered safe because of the variable timing and ability to soft feint into GB. Zone's timing is the exact same timing every time and has no soft feint to threaten with.

"for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast."

That just makes them slightly harder to react to. It's not an opener because blocking shuts it out. You can also slightly delay deadly feint. That doesn't mean it actually does anything super beneficial.

"Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this."

No you didn't. You posted this in the competitive sub and got laughed out because what you covered for the most part was already debunked by another person who happens to be one of the best players in the game. And as people told you there even if half of what you shows works in any sembalance Aramusha is still being forced to make 2-3 proper reads on the opponent for an action that's supposed to force his opponent to play a mind game. One which they don't have to play because back dashing gets you out of the game of trying to correctly block/parry the follow up from deadly feint. Back dodge and buffering the guard switch during it will block majority of what mushu can do.

"strong mindgames"

There are no mind games with aramusha. You block all of his in combo lights because they're 500ms with 200ms buffers in between each. His heavies are telegraphed enough via using both of his swords to hit and his heavy finishers even more so. The only mind game he would have is revolved around deadly feints. Which people don't have to deal with because back dashing avoids the deadly feint mix up. Even if back dashing wasn't a thing anyone with SB on dodge or having access to some kind of deflect can easily dodge into any of your comboed lights to chunk you. The actual mind games he used to have were scrapped because they got rid of the special hit stun he had on deadly feinted lights. That and the change to the 200ms in between each attack basically killed is top heavy after BB mix up. And then nerfing his top light to 500ms was just a slap to the face.

"strong defense"

Blade blockade being nearly instant is indeed a good counter for spam. Too bad spam isn't effective at all in higher tier play. Buffering your BB is just going to get guard broken or a heavy to the face. You're over selling the recovery. You can absolutely GB BB on reaction if you have a tight reaction. (which is known as the 300ms sweet spot.) Mid tier and low tier will not have this.
High tier absolutely does. And even if you couldn't grab it on reaction it's still very baitable. Both his slow walk speed and the fact that his back dodge is worse than everyone elses makes him even more bad.

"High damage"

His high damage for the most part came from the devs changes. Which only happened because they believed he was too strong in low tier. And guess what? the damage buff made him even worse for low tier players and does nothing for high tier players beyond decent chip damage. That's literally the only good thing high tier got from his changes.

"Fast attacks."

He only has 400ms attacks which are locked behind a combo that you have to whiff into more often than not which makes you punishable. And people don't need to react to the 400ms attack when you back dodge on the deadly feint heavy. Not the attack that comes after. If people couldn't back dash then it would be a strength for him. But only really against reflex heros. As standard heros can buffer a guard switch during hit stun so they'll likely block any follow up you do.

"Rework"

Was only a buff for him in low tier, where he didn't need it, and maybe mid tier. High mid tier and high tier got nothing substantial besides extra chip damage. They killed his actual mix up potential by slowing combo attacks down, making all lights 500ms, and getting rid of the special hit stun on side heavies and deadly feinted side lights. Sure everything he does hits harder now.
But that really doesn't matter when all of it is either reactable or avoidable with a single action.

"why people say he is bad"

He's bad because he can't keep up pressure on someone who spaces because his walk speed is trash. And any chase down moves he has are poor minus the top heavy dash. But again that's simply option selected. He's bad because he has no reliable way to open someone up. His best chance at doing so is throwing a zone. But you can't do that because of how stamina intensive it is. Which mean's his only reliable way into his combo is by whiffing into it. Which is something that's punishable on any hero with prediction. He's bad because his back dodge can't even be used situationally to avoid something due to worse recovery than everyone else. Finally he's bad because half of his move list is locked behind Blade blockade. Which entirely relies on your opponent to make a mistake, and your reward for landing is often not as strong as what you'd get from a parry (especially not now that they mega buffed his heavies.) Not to mention parry attempts are always safer than attempting to BB and his BB moves are not accessible with the rest of his kit.

Aramusha is a completely servicable hero for most of the population. The tier list doesn't apply to a majority of the players in this game. And even good players can win with bad kits. None of this changes the fact that his kit is badly designed. People don't need to "get good" and learn him. The high tier players know everything there is to know about aramusha. Kudos to coming to the forums though. You weren't happy with being told you were wrong in the competitive sub so you came here expecting people not being able to argue back due to a lack of information.

Here's a bit of advise. If you like aramusha. play him. Don't care about what others think about your main. If you like him and you're doing well with him that's all that matters.

I'm not going to read this after you said "he debunked me" watch the video again, you've completely no idea what you're talking about.

Vakris_One
11-22-2018, 07:07 PM
I'm not going to read this after you said "he debunked me" watch the video again, you've completely no idea what you're talking about.
Well then how about answering to all of the other points he made instead of finding a convenient excuse to back out of defending points that you are clearly wrong on?

Siegfried-Z
11-22-2018, 08:31 PM
Well then how about answering to all of the other points he made instead of finding a convenient excuse to back out of defending points that you are clearly wrong on?

He should have read the rest of Knight points of course as he's got some good stuff. He's got maybe too happy by mine.

But, Knight comment while really rich in terms of details and precision is as often very school style and theoric. (that's not a critic).

The guy here is more talking about what someone who has spend time tryharding with Musha can feel and say as a real feedback from the battlefield.

I've always said it, on the paper he looks very bad, but at the end not that much, he's potential is huge and last S7 Win matrix show it as the one of S6 does before ;)

I know we are both Kensei mains and for example i did better with Musha against Wulin than with my ken Boy saddly .. how do you handle wulin with Kensei on your side ? Tiandi is my nightmare

KWi_08j
11-22-2018, 10:12 PM
Was referring to the fact that if your first zone hit does land you can target swap to drop the UB version on someone not expecting it.
it's not the BEST thing but it's okay. Probably the most contribution he can give in a team fight.

I get where you are coming from I was just saying in the form of fighting 1v1 that the zone gets crushed most of the time. I mean you can cancel but it feels like the options you have after it the opponent has enough time to be ready for it. You are right though itís not the best but it can be okay in certain situations.

KWi_08j
11-22-2018, 10:23 PM
Now I really wonder why of all heroís only aramusha was reworked with marching fire 🤔

Are you here to just troll or be actually serious?

Who do you main and wish to see better (not op but more viable)?

Can you explain the buff that he has gotten I might have missed a patch note or two that you have seen maybe?

I hate infinite chains if I could I would throw aramusha infinite chain away to get combos that could work with the other moves he has in his kit and Orochi has no restrictions to his light spam as they can freely switch to any side. Their start up is even faster with all three of the lights at 400ms. I for one donít think of giving aramusha faster lights is the way to make him viable but making his moves come together kinda like how kensei can switch up his moves to start off something else would be a better step and without a three light combo or a infinite chain would throw away the light spam you are so afraid of.
I really would like to see serious suggestions from you instead of spouting sarcasm?

Knight_Raime
11-22-2018, 11:11 PM
I'm not going to read this after you said "he debunked me" watch the video again, you've completely no idea what you're talking about.


Which is a very lovely cop out that ignores not only everything I said on this point but all other points i've made. It's on you to prove that he didn't debunk it. Not me. Saying no doesn't cover you.


He should have read the rest of Knight points of course as he's got some good stuff. He's got maybe too happy by mine.

But, Knight comment while really rich in terms of details and precision is as often very school style and theoric. (that's not a critic).

The guy here is more talking about what someone who has spend time tryharding with Musha can feel and say as a real feedback from the battlefield.

I've always said it, on the paper he looks very bad, but at the end not that much, he's potential is huge and last S7 Win matrix show it as the one of S6 does before ;)

I know we are both Kensei mains and for example i did better with Musha against Wulin than with my ken Boy saddly .. how do you handle wulin with Kensei on your side ? Tiandi is my nightmare

If OP was coming from the mindset of "I'm an Aramusha main and this is how to use his kit to the fullest" then there wouldn't have been an issue. The issue is that OP is trying to claim for a fact that his kit is a good kit from design. Which if it was anywhere close to the truth then Aramusha wouldn't be sitting in the bottom of every accepted tier list itteration that's existed. It doesn't help that he uses terminology incorrectly and makes a claim about pc that's false.

If you noticed I ended my post saying that "Aramusha is a completely servicable hero for most of the population. The tier list doesn't apply to a majority of the players in this game. And even good players can win with bad kits. If you like aramusha. play him. Don't care about what others think about your main. If you like him and you're doing well with him that's all that matters."

Tier lists really only apply to people who regularly participate in skrims and tournaments. Everyone else it's irrelevant for. The only other application it has is for theory crafting/balance discussion. OP originally posted this video on the competitive sub. Several players pointed out that some parts of what he showed off were already proven to be defendable VIA a top tier tournament player's video. Of which the OP never commented on iirc. And we all basically said that even if aramusha HAS consistent ways of dealing with someone who back dodges/rolls Aramusha is having to make consecutive correct reads for it to work. Which no kit should ever have to do when trying to use their mix up.

iadvisoryi
11-23-2018, 03:20 AM
This thread is literally going to have no purpose because of this blitz guy. Literally ruins everything.

Aramusha has two and only two ways of opening people up, one is a zone, the other is a trade with a dashing heavy. He's viable in 4v4s, actually he's pretty good in 4v4s, but he's awful in dual. and his stance is almost non viable. I'm not going to read this thread anymore because the blitz guy is going to comment something ridiculous. So good luck.

Georg_Reshetov
11-23-2018, 03:40 AM
Which is a very lovely cop out that ignores not only everything I said on this point but all other points i've made. It's on you to prove that he didn't debunk it. Not me. Saying no doesn't cover you.



If OP was coming from the mindset of "I'm an Aramusha main and this is how to use his kit to the fullest" then there wouldn't have been an issue. The issue is that OP is trying to claim for a fact that his kit is a good kit from design. Which if it was anywhere close to the truth then Aramusha wouldn't be sitting in the bottom of every accepted tier list itteration that's existed. It doesn't help that he uses terminology incorrectly and makes a claim about pc that's false.

If you noticed I ended my post saying that "Aramusha is a completely servicable hero for most of the population. The tier list doesn't apply to a majority of the players in this game. And even good players can win with bad kits. If you like aramusha. play him. Don't care about what others think about your main. If you like him and you're doing well with him that's all that matters."

Tier lists really only apply to people who regularly participate in skrims and tournaments. Everyone else it's irrelevant for. The only other application it has is for theory crafting/balance discussion. OP originally posted this video on the competitive sub. Several players pointed out that some parts of what he showed off were already proven to be defendable VIA a top tier tournament player's video. Of which the OP never commented on iirc. And we all basically said that even if aramusha HAS consistent ways of dealing with someone who back dodges/rolls Aramusha is having to make consecutive correct reads for it to work. Which no kit should ever have to do when trying to use their mix up.
Again, I'm not gonna read this. Look up who made which debunk video first -.-

Aldo, i know you from your posts, you're unbelivably toxic and it makes no sense to discuss with you thinks that i already explained

Georg_Reshetov
11-23-2018, 03:45 AM
Well then how about answering to all of the other points he made instead of finding a convenient excuse to back out of defending points that you are clearly wrong on?

Name one.

BadBOO17
11-23-2018, 05:06 AM
Aramusha hybrid difficulty medium , fast attacks , feint , counter attacks . Raider vanguard difficulty easy adaptable lol and straightforward it seems that raider is more appealing to the masses ? You know top pick ? Is data relevant or irrelevant in this game that is the topic for itself . But Iím sure that masses would agree that aramusha needs a nerf . How many raiders would support me on this ?

Yeah Raider mains(i am one) dont support you in anyway ever. I cant tell if you just troll the forums or are just completely delusional still. Fast lights are very strong nowadays but musha is just a decent hero but no where close to being OP or in need of a nerf.

Siegfried-Z
11-23-2018, 10:19 AM
Which is a very lovely cop out that ignores not only everything I said on this point but all other points i've made. It's on you to prove that he didn't debunk it. Not me. Saying no doesn't cover you.



If OP was coming from the mindset of "I'm an Aramusha main and this is how to use his kit to the fullest" then there wouldn't have been an issue. The issue is that OP is trying to claim for a fact that his kit is a good kit from design. Which if it was anywhere close to the truth then Aramusha wouldn't be sitting in the bottom of every accepted tier list itteration that's existed. It doesn't help that he uses terminology incorrectly and makes a claim about pc that's false.

If you noticed I ended my post saying that "Aramusha is a completely servicable hero for most of the population. The tier list doesn't apply to a majority of the players in this game. And even good players can win with bad kits. If you like aramusha. play him. Don't care about what others think about your main. If you like him and you're doing well with him that's all that matters."

Tier lists really only apply to people who regularly participate in skrims and tournaments. Everyone else it's irrelevant for. The only other application it has is for theory crafting/balance discussion. OP originally posted this video on the competitive sub. Several players pointed out that some parts of what he showed off were already proven to be defendable VIA a top tier tournament player's video. Of which the OP never commented on iirc. And we all basically said that even if aramusha HAS consistent ways of dealing with someone who back dodges/rolls Aramusha is having to make consecutive correct reads for it to work. Which no kit should ever have to do when trying to use their mix up.

Well yes i can only agree to this.
Musha is not a char which you can just pick and make a good job, you have to work for it.. make some nice read, brain your opponent and use smartly his Kit by knowing how to exploit any chances you've got for starting a chain, punish with a BB and so on (of course this apply only to high level).

I strongly advice to look at Prince Oreo vids to anyone who would like to learn Aramusha as the guy is good and has an interesting mix up and tips with.

I had a big preference for the previous Musha Kit before Wulin as he was more Versatile.

About the "Debunked" subject i don't know a thing so i would not comment that.


This thread is literally going to have no purpose because of this blitz guy. Literally ruins everything.

Aramusha has two and only two ways of opening people up, one is a zone, the other is a trade with a dashing heavy. He's viable in 4v4s, actually he's pretty good in 4v4s, but he's awful in dual. and his stance is almost non viable. I'm not going to read this thread anymore because the blitz guy is going to comment something ridiculous. So good luck.

No Iadvisoryi stay XD Blitz is still quiet so don't care.


Again, I'm not gonna read this. Look up who made which debunk video first -.-

Aldo, i know you from your posts, you're unbelivably toxic and it makes no sense to discuss with you thinks that i already explained

While i think you've made an interesting thread about Musha as i've already said, this is not the kind of answer who gonna help in the discussion or bring any helpful feedback ;)
Agree or not this is always interesting to argue with guys with good knowledges of the game.


Yeah Raider mains(i am one) dont support you in anyway ever. I cant tell if you just troll the forums or are just completely delusional still. Fast lights are very strong nowadays but musha is just a decent hero but no where close to being OP or in need of a nerf.

Maybe you did'nt read his thread properly, he didn't ask for a Musha nerf. He just describe why he is "Viable", nothing else.

BadBOO17
11-23-2018, 09:45 PM
Maybe you did'nt read his thread properly, he didn't ask for a Musha nerf. He just describe why he is "Viable", nothing else.

Maybe you didnt read my post then. I wasnt responding to the original poster of this thread. He did make some good arguments for the viablity of musha and like i said i think hes an alright hero(definitely going to be better on console than PC). My comment was referring to that blitz guy who comments nonsense (thats why i quoted what he said and not OPs). Since you didnt read that ill give you a rundown. Blitz said raider mains would agree that musha needs a nerf. I as a raider main stated that no raiders mains dont agree with this.

chukblok
11-23-2018, 10:20 PM
Out of all bots lvl 3 aramusha is the strongest one . Light attacks always win take orochi for example its simple build light light light and light attacks all day long . No wonder he is the top pick in this game for veteran players . You move he light light you move he light light . Only idiots would argue otherwise about aramusha .

Jango_breezy....I hate that aramusha bot

matt89connor
11-23-2018, 11:07 PM
Alright. I said it. As an Aramusha main since marching Fire, I realized it. He ain't too bad.

I know this will start a ton of salt from other Aramusha mains, but I'll explain it anyway.

1. Good openers
2. Debunking the backdodge theory
3. Strong mindgames
4. strong defense
5. high damage
6. fast attacks
7. Rework
8. why people say he is bad
9. conclusion

1. good openers:
i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. You use it to start your combos. Many say that an opener needs to be a 50/50 which guarantees damage and be in the middle of an attack, but these are not openers, but just attacks. An opener is for example PKs first light, Kenseis top heavy or raiders side heavy. Orochis zone isn't an opener but an attack because you can't keep going with your combos after throwing it. Everything clear? Good.
Aramusha has 3 good openers.
a) His forward dash Heavy:
It has hyper armor, a ton of range, has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break. Thus most people will just block it and this is exactly what you want as an Aramusha. After the dash attack gets blocked, you can start your deadly feints by just doing another top heavy (before his rework, if you threw a dash attack, you would just throw your first heavy. I think this wasn't listed in the patch notes and basically no one knows that) and there you go: you opened up the enemy. If the enemy starts to understand what you're doing and starts to parry your dash heavy, bait him and feint it to a gb. you just created your very own 50/50 opener, either let it fly and go to your combos or feint it to a gb, do a top heavy and then go to your combos. Considering that this is a stupid idea, from the enemies perspective, he will just block it after some time and you will go to your combos. this is actually a very strong opener, considering it's immense range, which will beat high range heroes, and it's hyper armour which makes it impossible to hit you out of it. If you're an Aramusha main and never thought of this opener, use it. a lot. after some time of getting used to it, explain to me again then, how he has no openers.
b) His zone:
other then orochis or kenseis zone, his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage. why people complain? because "the first part is ez parry!" but this is wrong. 500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc. if he throws his zones randomly, it becomes very hard to react to it (of course, if he spams it like 80% of all aramushas, then it's going to be easy) and even if you can react to the indicators then too, he could just throw a side heavy from the same direction instead, which would hit the enemy, if they would've tried to parry the zone. this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community.
Well, although his zone is a good attack, it's not necessarily a good opener, considering that only one part of its 50/50 leads to further attacks. on the other hand though, it deals 35 hecking damage, which is good enough for one offensive.
c) his first lights:
yes you heard me correct, his lights are good openers. I found out from a youtube video that he can throw lights from opposite directions with barely any delay, same as all assassins but he is the only static guard hero who can do that, and this makes his first lights as hard to react as orochis first lights or gladiators first light or any other assassin, you get the deal. for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast.

2: Debunking the backdodge theory:
Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this.
Here's the video to it: https://youtu.be/LKfyFa0UD2s
this means, that he can counter everything the enemy tries while he does his deadly feints, and this brings us to part 3.

3: strong mindgames:
this leads to the enemy constantly being on pressure on what they're going to do. throwing another chain light in your mid combo also beat all dodge attempts and the very high rewards of actually catching a backdodging enemy (40 dmg) makes it very unlikely that they will try to dodge away all too often. This leads to his deadly feints (which are a 33/33/33 for the enemy because he needs to guess correctly which side you'll go with, thus a 66% chance of hitting the enemy) being very strong attacks and forces the enemy to do a lot of reads. Also, if we add all other possibilities and reads, then we get around a 50% chance for the aramusha to hit the enemy and an average damage of around 25 per correct read. that means, if aramusha guesses correct 3 times correct in a row, if the enemy and aramusha would guess randomly what they're gonna do, aramusha would do 75 damage in around 4 seconds. mathematically speaking, he is strong. but practically he is even stronger, considering that basically no one can do this (neither the ara nor the enemy) in such a pressure and speed, thus his deadly feint 33/33/33 with an average damage output of 26,66 are his main combos with additional backdodge catching.

Tldr: his mindgames are good but complicated as hell.

4: strong defense:
Blade blockade is one of the best defensive options in the game. to hold it simple, it beats light spam by just doing it in the middle of someones combo. his recovery is also so fast that you cannot guard break him out of his blockade on reaction. if you would try, you would end up getting hit by a side heavy. if you would try to bait the ara and then go for a gb, the ara could just try to parry normally and beat the gb attempts because his heavies have absolutely no guard break vulerability, which makes it also super safe to try to parry unblockables (just be aware that his top heavy is might too fast to feint on reaction).
Only problem is his slow walk speed which makes dodging quite hard, but you'll get used to it.

5: High damage:
his zone does 50 damage. his blade blockade punish is 30 - 50 damage. his OOS parry punish is 85(!). Guessing incorrect in his deadly feints, leads to an average of 26 damage (in comparision, conquerors 50/50 (16% higher chance of reading correctly for the enemy) only does 19 average damage.).
Do i need to add anything? i don't think so.

6: Fast attacks:
His deadly feint lights are 400ms and can be delayed, thus they are unreactable on all platforms. say whatever you want, but only 0,1% of the entire community can regularly parry 333ms attacks. to say that he is trash because 0,1% of the community can block him on reaction is just laughable. also, everything else he has is also quite fast, he has no 600 ms lights.

7: Rework:
His recent rework in season 8 was a BUFF. It made his dash attack a proper opener (before his rework, it would only lead to his first heavy, not his second), it made his damage values better and his deadly feints more viable. I know, i know, his side heavy doesn't guarantee a top light anymore, but it does far more damage now. although his normal side heavy from neutral does now 2 less damage (which is no difference anyway), his wallsplat side heavy always only did 33dmg and now it does the proper damage of his side heavies, making his blockade into kick actually somewhat viable. His deadly feint side lights don't guarantee a top light anymore, but now they are 400ms. before his rework, they were actually blockable or even parryable on reaction for many people, especially on pc but now, since they are unreactable, they shouldn't do 35 damage. imagine berserkers heavy feint to light would do 35 damage. Many people complain that you can just backdodge his deadly feints = nerf but 1. i debunked that and second, it was the same before his rework too, so i don't understand how it can be seen as a nerf. another thing changed are his chain lights. because his top chain light is now 500 ms which is honesly a great change. why? because first, it reduces the light spam strenght, thus the aramusha needs actual skill to beat the enemy and second, aramusha was completely BROKEN against any assassin. it was many times impossible to block aramusha, even when you knew where his lights would come from. it's no wonder why he has a high win percentage against all assassins on season 7. im happy that they changed this, this also makes him less overpowered in low level fights which is exactly what the devs were looking for.
In total, i think its fair to call it a rework, because of how much his moves and his playstyle has changed. it's also a buff, because most of his changes were positive ones and his infinite light nerf was basically unavoidable, considering how broken it was.

8: why people say he is bad:
Because they don't know his full potential. they think all he has is light spam and when they hear that his light spam got nerfed, they think that he got nerfed. its also bad that many of his moves arent even listed in his moveset, for example before his buff that he would get a free top light from any side heavy or that his blockade stun, would make guard breaks invisible. i think people just need to learn him far more and discover all the great things he has. i bet that many who are reading this also thought that ara is bad but didn't knew at least 2 things that i have listed here.

tldr: git gud.

9: conclusion:
Aramusha is (in my opinion of course) a good hero, a viable hero, a competitive hero. im not suprised where he stood in the duel win matrix of season 7 and 6 and i'm quite sure that he will rise even higher when we get the matrix for season 8.
if you're an aramusha main and still think that he is trash, think about all the potential that he has, think about all the great things i listed and ask yourself:
"Am I out of touch? no, it's the other heroes who are strong".

i say many times on competitive reddit that is a decent hero and not deserve the last position for the 4v4: he has vary good feats and the parry punish, the speed, the dmg, the decent full block,and the good ability to cleanning minnions ,put him in a better situation than other bad heroes (like goki), and i play him a lot so i know that can be hard to use but not impossible.

Siegfried-Z
11-23-2018, 11:53 PM
Maybe you didnt read my post then. I wasnt responding to the original poster of this thread. He did make some good arguments for the viablity of musha and like i said i think hes an alright hero(definitely going to be better on console than PC). My comment was referring to that blitz guy who comments nonsense (thats why i quoted what he said and not OPs). Since you didnt read that ill give you a rundown. Blitz said raider mains would agree that musha needs a nerf. I as a raider main stated that no raiders mains dont agree with this.
Yep i answered at too many post at the same time and confound to what you was answering, my bad ;)

Card1acArrest
11-25-2018, 08:30 AM
a) The Win Matrix has now been released for season 7, putting Aramusha in a hot no. 4 spot in the duel list, with a 53% win rate. Knight Raime seems to be basically proven wrong by the overall numbers... The Win Matrix is now more exclusive than earlier, as explained by Ubi, who now only pick Master and Grand Master for this list.

My personal view: Georg may be right on Aramusha, globally! I think that the classes in For Honor now offer such a multitude of movesets, that the more theoretical detailed explanations just don't cut it. Reality beats theory. So all these fine points offered by Knight Raime just dont cut it in reality?? They will make you a better player up to a given point, beyond that, they are not significant enough and basically not correct. So to sum it up: Everybody agrees Aramusha is perfectly fine at low to mid tier, and now the Win Matrix confirms Aramusha as no 4 in GM tier.:)


b) on "just step back/block".
Knight Raime is correct that the Aramusha can't hit anybody who basically block or step back. But I think he overestimates the value of that fact! You see it in the duel list now, if the defender wants to win, he will have to attack, and then it seems the Aramusha now is on par with everybody except Conq in terms of win rates. In a 4v4 scenario, I think the Aramusha is intended to be a defensive Hybrid, not meant to pursue and defeat people who "just block" . This is just how he is. But that is such a rare scenario, most of the time is hack and slash and glorious combat :P

Again theory tends to lose out to reality in my view :) I just love to play Aramusha in 4v4 or Breach, his feats are just brilliant (heal on Minion kills, rocksteady).

Vendelkin
11-25-2018, 10:54 AM
A whole lot of what you said is either A: Wrong or B: pointless to mention given the abilities of other heroes
Thus I feel the need to go through your whole post and point out some inconsistencies etc along the whole thing

1. good openers:
"i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. "

WRONG an opener is nota combo initiator. an opener is a move or combination of moves that allows a hero to open up turtlers, of whihc the aramush has none. our best opener is hard feinting a dash attack into a grab, and even that can be tech-ed out of. GUESS WHAT thats what any hero can do. when people talk about openers they are never refering to peoples opening move hard feintability... cause everyone can do that.

ALL 3 openers you list are A not openers, and B far more punishable in higher skill levels than you let on.
1 his dash top heavy, Most of how you use this is correct, and how I use the forward dash heavy, but its still not the best opener. many other heroes can easy parry this, or block it to counter punish in many ways and also thus still have the ability to counter guard break. This absolutely isnt an opener.
2nd you list his zone... I have many times tried to use this as you describe. feinting to a GB hardly ever works, if the opponent back dashes the GB doesn't connect. even the first hit is parryable. you can get hit out of it after the first hit by bashes. and even letting it fly the opponent can just dodge instead as its extremely telegraphed. Again this isn't an opener.

3rd you mention his lights..... This was the first time where I thought you might be an idiot. Lights as slow and telegraphed as the aramushas are will almost always be parried/blocked. they can't be feinted (cause they are lights) and the bounce off doesn't allow you to continue your combo. Anyone can open with a light... and its not a good opener. This is like saying something like: The shugoki is top tied cause he can light attack!..... This is stupid for Reason B pointless to mention.

Next you bring up back dodge theory
I partially agree with you here. I've had generally less issues catching back dodgers than some people admit, but certainly it is a tactic that still works unfairly well against the aramusha compared to other heroes. HOWEVER a good opponent will always succesfully dodge a deadly feint... simply because if they see you attack twice from the same side they will appropriatly time their back dodge.

"3: strong mindgames:"

...............................Wat? any hero/player can mindgame. this is all skill and speaks nothing for whether the character is good or not. I main aramusha. I do well as him, but it's not cause hes phenomenal at mindgames thats for sure. His mixup mindgame is fun, but it isn't anywhere more powerful than almost any other heroes mind games can also be..... This is again Pointless to mention... Reason B

"4: strong defense:"
BB comes out fast yes... but any good player can taunt it out of you and then punish massively because of how bad its recovery frames are. about the only thing BB works for is countering other hero infinite chains, because they often wont want to feint to continue. AND too much of our kit is locked behind this. In high tier play unless you are fighting an infinite chainer it is always safer to go for parries than BB
So I label your point for as an A: your just wrong. Studdy the frames for the move.

"5: High damage:"
I cannot disagree with this. Ara has high damage.

"6: Fast attacks:"
Deadly feints as many have already discussed can be easily evaded right now... other than that our lights aren't even light spam speed sitting at 500ms. there are tons of better fast attackers. our chained heavies tho are quite fast, but again extremely telegraphed and parry-able. I label this a B case: Pointless to bring up cause so many other characters have it better than us here too.

"7: Rework:"
B case his rework was both a nerf and a buff. you cant look at it as a one sided coin... some aspects of his kit that were fun to use were nerfed and his kill potential was increased. to me overall I feel it was a nerf, but this is really an opinion thing and pointless to even mention really.

"8: why people say he is bad:"
Again.... full potential is a case B
Any hero can be decent in the hands of a very skilled hard-feinting player. discussing potential is pointless, except when discussing potential of abusable mechanics, of which... he has none. this is very much pointless to bring up. very much a case B


"9: conclusion:

I agree that he is very viable, just maybe not for duels. but I think you still overrate him for the wrong reasons.
The reason I play aramusha is the strong synergy with certain of my teamates. Aramusha with proper use alongside a shinobi can wreck most people because of how they can feed off of eachothers harrassing tactics. I love the aramusha. I feel he is still very fun to play, but his Identity is somewhat lost, and much of his kit for solo purposes is useless entirely.

One thing I want to see changed is I want a side dodge attack. Of some kind. similar to kensei or assasin I don't care. The guy is supposed to be an Assassin Heavy hybrid. and he barely fits that bill at all. Neither his heavy nor assassin role is truly defined. he doesn't have the mobility mid combat that assasins have, nor does he have the control and unblockable/strong GBs that heavies have. He needs a better dodge. There are many other things that I would bring up for potential changes here if I had time but I dont. So heres my TLDR:

most of what you said was pointless for comparison sake, and a few things you said are straight wrong, but I still love playing aramusha.

Siegfried-Z
11-25-2018, 05:48 PM
A whole lot of what you said is either A: Wrong or B: pointless to mention given the abilities of other heroes
Thus I feel the need to go through your whole post and point out some inconsistencies etc along the whole thing

1. good openers:
"i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. "

WRONG an opener is nota combo initiator. an opener is a move or combination of moves that allows a hero to open up turtlers, of whihc the aramush has none. our best opener is hard feinting a dash attack into a grab, and even that can be tech-ed out of. GUESS WHAT thats what any hero can do. when people talk about openers they are never refering to peoples opening move hard feintability... cause everyone can do that.

ALL 3 openers you list are A not openers, and B far more punishable in higher skill levels than you let on.
1 his dash top heavy, Most of how you use this is correct, and how I use the forward dash heavy, but its still not the best opener. many other heroes can easy parry this, or block it to counter punish in many ways and also thus still have the ability to counter guard break. This absolutely isnt an opener.
2nd you list his zone... I have many times tried to use this as you describe. feinting to a GB hardly ever works, if the opponent back dashes the GB doesn't connect. even the first hit is parryable. you can get hit out of it after the first hit by bashes. and even letting it fly the opponent can just dodge instead as its extremely telegraphed. Again this isn't an opener.

3rd you mention his lights..... This was the first time where I thought you might be an idiot. Lights as slow and telegraphed as the aramushas are will almost always be parried/blocked. they can't be feinted (cause they are lights) and the bounce off doesn't allow you to continue your combo. Anyone can open with a light... and its not a good opener. This is like saying something like: The shugoki is top tied cause he can light attack!..... This is stupid for Reason B pointless to mention.

Next you bring up back dodge theory
I partially agree with you here. I've had generally less issues catching back dodgers than some people admit, but certainly it is a tactic that still works unfairly well against the aramusha compared to other heroes. HOWEVER a good opponent will always succesfully dodge a deadly feint... simply because if they see you attack twice from the same side they will appropriatly time their back dodge.

"3: strong mindgames:"

...............................Wat? any hero/player can mindgame. this is all skill and speaks nothing for whether the character is good or not. I main aramusha. I do well as him, but it's not cause hes phenomenal at mindgames thats for sure. His mixup mindgame is fun, but it isn't anywhere more powerful than almost any other heroes mind games can also be..... This is again Pointless to mention... Reason B

"4: strong defense:"
BB comes out fast yes... but any good player can taunt it out of you and then punish massively because of how bad its recovery frames are. about the only thing BB works for is countering other hero infinite chains, because they often wont want to feint to continue. AND too much of our kit is locked behind this. In high tier play unless you are fighting an infinite chainer it is always safer to go for parries than BB
So I label your point for as an A: your just wrong. Studdy the frames for the move.

"5: High damage:"
I cannot disagree with this. Ara has high damage.

"6: Fast attacks:"
Deadly feints as many have already discussed can be easily evaded right now... other than that our lights aren't even light spam speed sitting at 500ms. there are tons of better fast attackers. our chained heavies tho are quite fast, but again extremely telegraphed and parry-able. I label this a B case: Pointless to bring up cause so many other characters have it better than us here too.

"7: Rework:"
B case his rework was both a nerf and a buff. you cant look at it as a one sided coin... some aspects of his kit that were fun to use were nerfed and his kill potential was increased. to me overall I feel it was a nerf, but this is really an opinion thing and pointless to even mention really.

"8: why people say he is bad:"
Again.... full potential is a case B
Any hero can be decent in the hands of a very skilled hard-feinting player. discussing potential is pointless, except when discussing potential of abusable mechanics, of which... he has none. this is very much pointless to bring up. very much a case B


"9: conclusion:

I agree that he is very viable, just maybe not for duels. but I think you still overrate him for the wrong reasons.
The reason I play aramusha is the strong synergy with certain of my teamates. Aramusha with proper use alongside a shinobi can wreck most people because of how they can feed off of eachothers harrassing tactics. I love the aramusha. I feel he is still very fun to play, but his Identity is somewhat lost, and much of his kit for solo purposes is useless entirely.

One thing I want to see changed is I want a side dodge attack. Of some kind. similar to kensei or assasin I don't care. The guy is supposed to be an Assassin Heavy hybrid. and he barely fits that bill at all. Neither his heavy nor assassin role is truly defined. he doesn't have the mobility mid combat that assasins have, nor does he have the control and unblockable/strong GBs that heavies have. He needs a better dodge. There are many other things that I would bring up for potential changes here if I had time but I dont. So heres my TLDR:

most of what you said was pointless for comparison sake, and a few things you said are straight wrong, but I still love playing aramusha.

I just start Musha in s6. Im doing really good with him.
Or course he is not perfect, but strong ? Yes he is. At least enough to allow a good player to have good performances with him.

You want a side dodge attack for him, i was thinking the same before but at the end im not sure. If yes it should be a fast heavy one as shaman.

Vakris_One
11-26-2018, 05:19 PM
Name one.
Well you were wrong on quite a few things so I can name more than one:

● What an opener is - An opener is something that must force a reaction from your opponent and can be relied on to get you damage. What you were talking about are chain starters and that's not the same thing. A Kensei top heavy from neutral is not an opener. His soft feint into pommel strike is the opener. Warden's shoulder bash is an opener. Aramusha does not have an opener.

● 500ms attack being hard to parry even on PC - no, they're not.

● Strong mind games - He has very predictable mind games. Everything Aramusha does sans the 400ms deadly feint side lights is counterable on reaction. And you can back dodge out of range of his 400ms sides lights if you think he'll use them.

● Strong defence via blade blockade - Against spam it's very good but at high level nobody will be silly enough to use light spam against an Aramusha. BB is very easy to overcome once an opponent starts feinting and having an over reliance on BB at that level will result in free GBs for your opponent.

I could go on but Raime already covered these things and more and really your reply should be directed towards him instead of brushing it all under the carpet.


He should have read the rest of Knight points of course as he's got some good stuff. He's got maybe too happy by mine.

But, Knight comment while really rich in terms of details and precision is as often very school style and theoric. (that's not a critic).

The guy here is more talking about what someone who has spend time tryharding with Musha can feel and say as a real feedback from the battlefield.

I've always said it, on the paper he looks very bad, but at the end not that much, he's potential is huge and last S7 Win matrix show it as the one of S6 does before ;)
It's not really theory though when he's pointing out obvious flaws in the OP's points. Whether Raime plays Aramusha or not is irrelevant to the points he was making about the character's kit. Secondly, has the OP as you say, "spent time tryharding with Musha"? What do you mean by try harding? Do you mean having a Diamond ranking or above with Aramusha? Or do you mean being a serious competitive level player that has won a tournament using Aramusha? Because playing ranked and winning a competitive tournament are two very different things.

Aramusha is one of my favourite heroes and I have about 19 reps in the guy. He's not as bad as Shugoki in my opinion, he does have some power to him. But at higher levels he just cannot cut it because he cannot compete with the likes of S to A tier heroes like Conq, Zerker, Kensei, Warden, etc. At low to mid-tier level Ara is great to use and has no problems. At high level he starts to struggle as players can confidently shut him down without worrying about having to deal with any kind of opener from him. 400ms deadly feints gave him a nice bit of extra pressure but opponents can learn to avoid having to deal with that by either back dashing, dodge rolling or using a dodge attack.

And so we're back to him being shut down at high level by anyone who has bothered to learn and adapt to his tweaks. He no longer has a guarranteed top light after side heavy thereby weaking his wall splat and light parry punish. So in reality he got given 400ms feints that work wonders at low to mid level play but will never land at the higher levels (because players constantly learn and adapt at this level) while losing a move/punish that was actually useful all throughout low to mid to high level play. Sounds like a bad tradeoff to me any way I try to look at it. And last but not least even though we may not play at the competitive level we still have to consider the fact that nobody has won a competitive tournament with Aramusha.



I know we are both Kensei mains and for example i did better with Musha against Wulin than with my ken Boy saddly .. how do you handle wulin with Kensei on your side ? Tiandi is my nightmare
I generally just try to shut them out and use pokes such as my zone, top light and occassionally helm splitter if I can't go more aggressive. If they're a bit more cautious I can start getting into my soft feints. JJ and Nuxia are pretty standard to engage since they can't really dictate the pace of the fight. For me Tiandi and Shaolin are trickier due to Kensei's slow attack speed being a liability. It restricts how much I can go into my soft feints so I have to buckle down and use less moves/press less buttons. If my opponent knows what they're doing I have to chip them down gradually and focus on making correct reads on them.

Tiandi's palm strike is the main culprit in making him a tough customer to deal with. Proper spacing helps neutralise the threat from his palm strike but you don't always have the luxury of a prolonged 1v1 in a 4v4 mode. Shaolin for me is the trickier one. He can go full on aggression for quite a while before running down his stamina and a few of the stuff he can mix up into forces me to make reads rather than simply react, which could be down to me. With both of them though I find that If I can slow down the fight by proper spacing and resets then I have the advantage.


a) The Win Matrix has now been released for season 7, putting Aramusha in a hot no. 4 spot in the duel list, with a 53% win rate. Knight Raime seems to be basically proven wrong by the overall numbers... The Win Matrix is now more exclusive than earlier, as explained by Ubi, who now only pick Master and Grand Master for this list.
It's actually way more inclusive than ever, despite what Ubi write in their blog post. If you check the top right corner of the win matrix it starts at "Platinum" and above, which is much, much wider than the previous 2.5% of players. It means this data is including mid to high level players, which explains why Aramusha is so high and Warlord is bottom place. This data is too skewed to be of any use as a judge of how competitive a hero is. At best it's a representation of mid to high level play as those are the majority of the data sample size with Master and Grandmaster being pretty much drowned out because they're a much smaller sample size.



My personal view: Georg may be right on Aramusha, globally! I think that the classes in For Honor now offer such a multitude of movesets, that the more theoretical detailed explanations just don't cut it. Reality beats theory. So all these fine points offered by Knight Raime just dont cut it in reality??
In reality Aramusha has not won a competitive tournament and his pick rate in competitive scrims and tournies is so non-existent that the devs had to branch out all the way down to Platinum just to get enough representative data on all the heroes. That's like 30% of all players who play ranked duel. 30%..... With that wide of a pool I'm surprised Shugoki wasn't higher up in the win chart.



They will make you a better player up to a given point, beyond that, they are not significant enough and basically not correct. So to sum it up: Everybody agrees Aramusha is perfectly fine at low to mid tier, and now the Win Matrix confirms Aramusha as no 4 in GM tier.:)
Not in GM tier. In Platinum and above. We don't know how much of that data is really coming from Platinum and Diamond versus Master and Grandmaster. If Ubi wanted any kind of accuracy from this data they would have seperated the data up into contextual charts and presented it as follows:

1) Platinum and Diamond win matrix + hero pick rates
2) Master and Grandmaster win matrix + hero pickrates
3) Just the Console win matrix
4) Just the PC win matrix
5) All of the above data smushed into one big win chart & pick rate

If only they did this ^ then we would get a much more detailed and much, much more useful set of data from which to base our opinions and comments on. My only hope is that Ubi does actually do this internally for themselves at least otherwise their data is practically useless to them without the proper context.

Siegfried-Z
11-26-2018, 06:16 PM
It's not really theory though when he's pointing out obvious flaws in the OP's points. Whether Raime plays Aramusha or not is irrelevant to the points he was making about the character's kit. Secondly, has the OP as you say, "spent time tryharding with Musha"? What do you mean by try harding? Do you mean having a Diamond ranking or above with Aramusha? Or do you mean being a serious competitive level player that has won a tournament using Aramusha? Because playing ranked and winning a competitive tournament are two very different things.

Aramusha is one of my favourite heroes and I have about 19 reps in the guy. He's not as bad as Shugoki in my opinion, he does have some power to him. But at higher levels he just cannot cut it because he cannot compete with the likes of S to A tier heroes like Conq, Zerker, Kensei, Warden, etc. At low to mid-tier level Ara is great to use and has no problems. At high level he starts to struggle as players can confidently shut him down without worrying about having to deal with any kind of opener from him. 400ms deadly feints gave him a nice bit of extra pressure but opponents can learn to avoid having to deal with that by either back dashing, dodge rolling or using a dodge attack.

And so we're back to him being shut down at high level by anyone who has bothered to learn and adapt to his tweaks. He no longer has a guarranteed top light after side heavy thereby weaking his wall splat and light parry punish. So in reality he got given 400ms feints that work wonders at low to mid level play but will never land at the higher levels (because players constantly learn and adapt at this level) while losing a move/punish that was actually useful all throughout low to mid to high level play. Sounds like a bad tradeoff to me any way I try to look at it. And last but not least even though we may not play at the competitive level we still have to consider the fact that nobody has won a competitive tournament with Aramusha.


I generally just try to shut them out and use pokes such as my zone, top light and occassionally helm splitter if I can't go more aggressive. If they're a bit more cautious I can start getting into my soft feints. JJ and Nuxia are pretty standard to engage since they can't really dictate the pace of the fight. For me Tiandi and Shaolin are trickier due to Kensei's slow attack speed being a liability. It restricts how much I can go into my soft feints so I have to buckle down and use less moves/press less buttons. If my opponent knows what they're doing I have to chip them down gradually and focus on making correct reads on them.

Tiandi's palm strike is the main culprit in making him a tough customer to deal with. Proper spacing helps neutralise the threat from his palm strike but you don't always have the luxury of a prolonged 1v1 in a 4v4 mode. Shaolin for me is the trickier one. He can go full on aggression for quite a while before running down his stamina and a few of the stuff he can mix up into forces me to make reads rather than simply react, which could be down to me. With both of them though I find that If I can slow down the fight by proper spacing and resets then I have the advantage.

Well, of course all these issues are well known.

By tryharding i mean play ranked at least at Diamond level and then in normal games matched with people with this level. Not about Tournaments.

I'm not looking at tournaments too often but yes i know Musha has never won one.

But, let's say good level start from Diamond 5.

I'm myself usually between Diamond 2 and above and at this level which is obviously not "pro level" but can be considered as the begenning of high level, playing on console and exclusivly 4v4, Musha is doing the job.

Because while i agree with the issues you talk about, he still bring some nice things to the table such as :

1) His dash attack he can feint, have HA on to cut the distance and sometimes score some dmg and start his chain
2) His zone. While not perfect because his mix up is slow on it and has a high stam consumption, the first hit almost always go through and then you can brain the opponent on the UB part sometimes
3) His deadly feints, in a 4v4 game where people are usually less focus because they have many things to look at this often works and they are not that often punished
4) His BB still works perfectly on many "template" people like to do very often
5) His infinite chain with nice feint is insane in anti-gank whith a good target switching
6) His feats are very good. The second one specially which allow him to avoid max punish most of the times

Of course he is not perfet, but viable ? yes. But that's what you said in others words and from a higher level pov.

About Kensei, that's the thing i try to do too, keep distance. Otherwise anything which allow Kensei to start a chain or to open are too slow compared to Tiandi as every mooves of his kit are really fast.

I also agree Ubi should split their Stats as you suggest to. But i highly doubt they would go that far one day..

UbiInsulin
11-26-2018, 10:43 PM
Not in GM tier. In Platinum and above. We don't know how much of that data is really coming from Platinum and Diamond versus Master and Grandmaster. If Ubi wanted any kind of accuracy from this data they would have seperated the data up into contextual charts and presented it as follows:

1) Platinum and Diamond win matrix + hero pick rates
2) Master and Grandmaster win matrix + hero pickrates
3) Just the Console win matrix
4) Just the PC win matrix
5) All of the above data smushed into one big win chart & pick rate

If only they did this ^ then we would get a much more detailed and much, much more useful set of data from which to base our opinions and comments on. My only hope is that Ubi does actually do this internally for themselves at least otherwise their data is practically useless to them without the proper context.

We are not claiming that the data we show alone is the final word on game balance. We explicitly stated multiple times that it's not to try to avoid any confusion. We do look at different hero match-ups, skill levels, game modes, etc. There's also community feedback, tournaments, and the feelings of the dev team.

It's a holistic process, and it is not reflected with 100% accuracy by a single chart that we show once per season.

Knight_Raime
11-27-2018, 01:15 AM
We are not claiming that the data we show alone is the final word on game balance. We explicitly stated multiple times that it's not to try to avoid any confusion. We do look at different hero match-ups, skill levels, game modes, etc. There's also community feedback, tournaments, and the feelings of the dev team.

It's a holistic process, and it is not reflected with 100% accuracy by a single chart that we show once per season.

It's all fine and good to state that. But players are going to take it anyway they want. It doesn't help that they say on stream that they were wanting to do master/grand master only which would be the top 1%. But the blog post states platinum and up which is the top 30%. They do explain why they did this but that doesn't really matter. The point Vakris is making is that the data shown in the chart is meaningless because it's not an accurate representation of anything. And without the proper context to the data it just fuels the fire for people who don't understand the game. This very thread is proof of that.

I don't think Vakris assumes the devs only look at this. Nor do any of the competitive players I actually speak to. We just don't know why the devs even bothered showing this data when it helps no one and at worst convinces people who don't know the game well that their idea of how things might be is actually correct. When it's not and it just creates more strife in the community.

Vendelkin
11-27-2018, 06:11 AM
A lot of this discussion is great. TBH I agree that the Aramusha is viable. but it is in a very strange place because sometimes as an aramusha you blow people out of the water (anyone who hasn't adapted to him yet) and then other times you get constantly decimated and are incapable of accessing any of your mechanics (against high tier players)

I'm not sitting back here thinking the Ara needs a massive buff. I do think he needs a mild buff, but mainly I want to see him just reworked, so his style is more uniquely defined and he actually feels like a hybrid heavy/assassin. Cause right now he just feels like a heavy to me.

This all said the weirdest thing about Aramusha is just the massive difference in viability across skill ranges. He is a noob stomper plain and simple, but in high tier he really really struggles.

One thing I do like that some people have mentioned is his skill ceiling. he absolutelyu takes awhile to master. I play on console and I remember still vividly the first time i got off a double deadly feint combo (Left heavy, left heafy feinted right light, right heavy feinted top, heavy right execute.) in actualy combat against a player. It was extremely vindicating and satisfying, but obviously the player I stomped with it wasn't prepared.

Additionally in high ranked play even if you have the skill to do such combo moves on console you will never see the combo through to completion. after the first deadly feint (if you even get that far) the opponent is out of the way and readying to counter you, or full blocking themselves (warlord, conq, another aramusha, or valk) and then riposting.

The most fun aspects of his kit: Blade blockade, and the Deadly Feint game are literally untouched in high rank play for aramusha, because people know how to counter so well.

Also I literalyl can't remember the last time I hit an actual player with the second hit of his zone attack. It is always parried it feel like to me haha.

Knight_Raime
11-27-2018, 07:24 AM
A lot of this discussion is great. TBH I agree that the Aramusha is viable. but it is in a very strange place because sometimes as an aramusha you blow people out of the water (anyone who hasn't adapted to him yet) and then other times you get constantly decimated and are incapable of accessing any of your mechanics (against high tier players)

I'm not sitting back here thinking the Ara needs a massive buff. I do think he needs a mild buff, but mainly I want to see him just reworked, so his style is more uniquely defined and he actually feels like a hybrid heavy/assassin. Cause right now he just feels like a heavy to me.

This all said the weirdest thing about Aramusha is just the massive difference in viability across skill ranges. He is a noob stomper plain and simple, but in high tier he really really struggles.

One thing I do like that some people have mentioned is his skill ceiling. he absolutelyu takes awhile to master. I play on console and I remember still vividly the first time i got off a double deadly feint combo (Left heavy, left heafy feinted right light, right heavy feinted top, heavy right execute.) in actualy combat against a player. It was extremely vindicating and satisfying, but obviously the player I stomped with it wasn't prepared.

Additionally in high ranked play even if you have the skill to do such combo moves on console you will never see the combo through to completion. after the first deadly feint (if you even get that far) the opponent is out of the way and readying to counter you, or full blocking themselves (warlord, conq, another aramusha, or valk) and then riposting.

The most fun aspects of his kit: Blade blockade, and the Deadly Feint game are literally untouched in high rank play for aramusha, because people know how to counter so well.

Also I literalyl can't remember the last time I hit an actual player with the second hit of his zone attack. It is always parried it feel like to me haha.

Yeah don't get me wrong I love Aramusha. I actually just picked him back up yesterday as it had been months since i'd played him. For me he's the second character in the game that I actually enjoy doing mirror matches with (first being warden.) You deff can use the games base mechanics if you know them well enough to eek out a little more than the standard Aramusha player. The issue is just that in high tier and above that just isn't enough to make him a threat.

Personally i've always wanted easier access to some of his BB moves, some improvement to BB itself, and really just a way to lace his kit together. As he sort of comes off light highlander to me. Where you've got two halves of the kit. Except HL can some what mix his forms together (though honestly i'm still not a fan of how he plays out.) But with aramusha it's either blade blockade OR infinite combo. never both.

Rough ideas but what i'd like out of Aramusha is:
~back to 100ms time between combos. (needed if all lights in his combo are 500ms.)
~Deadly feint gets another soft feint option. Either to something from his BB portion (like kick) or something that lets him chase down people who back dash/roll.
~Potentially give him a soft feint option from normal heavies as well. Either/or which ever option doesn't go on his deadly feint.
~BB either becomes less risky (so shorter recovery time so he can only be GBed on read) or the rewards from BB themselves get buffed. (i'd rather the latter. So next points are those buffs)
~Ring the bell now chains directly into a finisher heavy for mix up options.
~Kick distance nerfed and recovery reduced so aramusha can land a raw dash heavy in the open as well as against a surface.
~Fury unleashed is now guaranteed on BBing heavies.
~Twin vipers sped up to now be guaranteed on slow heavies (800ms and above) if it's not already.
~zone/twin vipers get slight tracking increase to deal with people who simply walk backwards.

Siegfried-Z
11-27-2018, 01:39 PM
Yeah don't get me wrong I love Aramusha. I actually just picked him back up yesterday as it had been months since i'd played him. For me he's the second character in the game that I actually enjoy doing mirror matches with (first being warden.) You deff can use the games base mechanics if you know them well enough to eek out a little more than the standard Aramusha player. The issue is just that in high tier and above that just isn't enough to make him a threat.

Personally i've always wanted easier access to some of his BB moves, some improvement to BB itself, and really just a way to lace his kit together. As he sort of comes off light highlander to me. Where you've got two halves of the kit. Except HL can some what mix his forms together (though honestly i'm still not a fan of how he plays out.) But with aramusha it's either blade blockade OR infinite combo. never both.

Rough ideas but what i'd like out of Aramusha is:
~back to 100ms time between combos. (needed if all lights in his combo are 500ms.)
~Deadly feint gets another soft feint option. Either to something from his BB portion (like kick) or something that lets him chase down people who back dash/roll.
~Potentially give him a soft feint option from normal heavies as well. Either/or which ever option doesn't go on his deadly feint.
~BB either becomes less risky (so shorter recovery time so he can only be GBed on read) or the rewards from BB themselves get buffed. (i'd rather the latter. So next points are those buffs)
~Ring the bell now chains directly into a finisher heavy for mix up options.
~Kick distance nerfed and recovery reduced so aramusha can land a raw dash heavy in the open as well as against a surface.
~Fury unleashed is now guaranteed on BBing heavies.
~Twin vipers sped up to now be guaranteed on slow heavies (800ms and above) if it's not already.
~zone/twin vipers get slight tracking increase to deal with people who simply walk backwards.

I would love to see these changes as well.

It would help him at higher level.

Specially having a SF from his BB portion on deadly feint and a dash after the kick.

In terms of pleasure, Musha is my fav char. It gave a very good feeling to play with, mastering the basics.

HazelrahFirefly
11-27-2018, 04:49 PM
Ha, funny thing, I came to this board this morning with the intent of posting a thread about the S7 data, specifically to do with the Aramusha. Of course, knowing that I am slow to the party on this, I checked for priority made threads and found this one.

I wish that I was surprised by what I am seeing. You focus on the top 1100 players and they all say the Aramusha is trash. Then Ubi expands their data out just a fraction, from 2.5 to 4 per cent, and the Aramusha is top-tier. 1.5% is barely any more players, especially compared to the remaining 96% of the total (those who shouldn't have any say in balancing the game, according to some).

Can anyone really say that while the first 2.5% of players are worthy of collecting data from, the next 1.5% are not? The fact that Aramusha is a great pick to win, with them included, should be dismissed away? Can you really say that those 1.5% of players are not good at the game? Great at it? ****ing excellent at it but they aren't Faraam, Mege, Alnerkin, and others so who cares?

They are still going to be amazing and their data included shows that Aramusha is/was a good hero.

I've thoroughly respected some of you on here, but the we say you are still dismissing Ara... well, its disappointing. Hell, Kenzo and Faraam both have videos absolutely destroying people in their MMR with Aramusha since he was "nerfed."

Some of you will know that I have a vendetta against Ara as he is my worst hero to face. I'm writing this now so that you all know that I am aware of it. I admit that most of my problems with Ara are my own, I just can't see his animations; the deadly feints look as if he is not moving for my eyes.

I've put more time into the Ara and I now know just how difficult it is to do the Deadly Feints, especially when mixed with other moves. Aramusha has a much higher skill ceiling than most other heroes, including even Berserker and Kensei. At this point I might be ramble-typing, but I suppose my point is the following question: is it possible that the top 2.5% of data shows Ara as a bad hero because they play who they play only, and don't truly know how to play Aramusha?

Siegfried-Z
11-27-2018, 07:04 PM
Ha, funny thing, I came to this board this morning with the intent of posting a thread about the S7 data, specifically to do with the Aramusha. Of course, knowing that I am slow to the party on this, I checked for priority made threads and found this one.

I wish that I was surprised by what I am seeing. You focus on the top 1100 players and they all say the Aramusha is trash. Then Ubi expands their data out just a fraction, from 2.5 to 4 per cent, and the Aramusha is top-tier. 1.5% is barely any more players, especially compared to the remaining 96% of the total (those who shouldn't have any say in balancing the game, according to some).

Can anyone really say that while the first 2.5% of players are worthy of collecting data from, the next 1.5% are not? The fact that Aramusha is a great pick to win, with them included, should be dismissed away? Can you really say that those 1.5% of players are not good at the game? Great at it? ****ing excellent at it but they aren't Faraam, Mege, Alnerkin, and others so who cares?

They are still going to be amazing and their data included shows that Aramusha is/was a good hero.

I've thoroughly respected some of you on here, but the we say you are still dismissing Ara... well, its disappointing. Hell, Kenzo and Faraam both have videos absolutely destroying people in their MMR with Aramusha since he was "nerfed."

Some of you will know that I have a vendetta against Ara as he is my worst hero to face. I'm writing this now so that you all know that I am aware of it. I admit that most of my problems with Ara are my own, I just can't see his animations; the deadly feints look as if he is not moving for my eyes.

I've put more time into the Ara and I now know just how difficult it is to do the Deadly Feints, especially when mixed with other moves. Aramusha has a much higher skill ceiling than most other heroes, including even Berserker and Kensei. At this point I might be ramble-typing, but I suppose my point is the following question: is it possible that the top 2.5% of data shows Ara as a bad hero because they play who they play only, and don't truly know how to play Aramusha?

TBH i agree with this. Even at decent level Musha is viable.

I just think too many people just read everywhere and see in lots of tier list Musha is bad etc with some true argue. And then they try for few level and get crushed so they just say "yeah he's trash".

But, once you use to it and start to know how to really use all of his kit to maximize your efficiency, he is good and can bring many things to the table once mastered.

As you said Faraam is a good example. I look a lot his vids as he is one of the rare 4v4 youtubers and i am only a 4v4 players. But others as Prince Oreo or AnimeExpert are doing really nice things with him as well.

Like i said, of course he is not perfect and he could need some slight buff but overall he is viable.

Knight_Raime
11-27-2018, 09:08 PM
Ha, funny thing, I came to this board this morning with the intent of posting a thread about the S7 data, specifically to do with the Aramusha. Of course, knowing that I am slow to the party on this, I checked for priority made threads and found this one.

I wish that I was surprised by what I am seeing. You focus on the top 1100 players and they all say the Aramusha is trash. Then Ubi expands their data out just a fraction, from 2.5 to 4 per cent, and the Aramusha is top-tier. 1.5% is barely any more players, especially compared to the remaining 96% of the total (those who shouldn't have any say in balancing the game, according to some).

Can anyone really say that while the first 2.5% of players are worthy of collecting data from, the next 1.5% are not? The fact that Aramusha is a great pick to win, with them included, should be dismissed away? Can you really say that those 1.5% of players are not good at the game? Great at it? ****ing excellent at it but they aren't Faraam, Mege, Alnerkin, and others so who cares?

They are still going to be amazing and their data included shows that Aramusha is/was a good hero.

I've thoroughly respected some of you on here, but the we say you are still dismissing Ara... well, its disappointing. Hell, Kenzo and Faraam both have videos absolutely destroying people in their MMR with Aramusha since he was "nerfed."

Some of you will know that I have a vendetta against Ara as he is my worst hero to face. I'm writing this now so that you all know that I am aware of it. I admit that most of my problems with Ara are my own, I just can't see his animations; the deadly feints look as if he is not moving for my eyes.

I've put more time into the Ara and I now know just how difficult it is to do the Deadly Feints, especially when mixed with other moves. Aramusha has a much higher skill ceiling than most other heroes, including even Berserker and Kensei. At this point I might be ramble-typing, but I suppose my point is the following question: is it possible that the top 2.5% of data shows Ara as a bad hero because they play who they play only, and don't truly know how to play Aramusha?

No going to platinum and up is the top 30%. Not the top 4%
Having a good player be able to do something with a bad kit doesn't mean the kit is suddenly good. Like come on.
Is it possible the top 2.5% and up don't play Mushu? Sure. That doesn't change anything said about his kit.
The competitive's tier list is a combination of top players opinion's who come to a consensus from the person in charge of it.
To even think that the reason why people think he's bad because "they don't know how to use him" is just absurd.
That's conspiracy theory levels of denial.

If looking at Aramusha's placement is too difficult for you to see objectively then look at the bottom of the data. Warlord is at the bottom. Why?
Because not many people are aware of/use his crashing charge mix up. Which that combined with some headbutts is why he's as high as he is for the tier list.
The only thing the data actually shows here is the massive difference between good players and great players.

The point of the data is for them to see how the changes they make to the game effect the highest level of play. Widening the pool (which they only did because not enough players play ranked. They only wanted to do master/grand master) would not do that.

EDIT: Also Kenzo and Faraam are no where near top levels of play. Kenzo at best is high mid tier. Maybe early high tier. Faraam's videos, as entertaining as they are, are mainly compilations of people who don't know how to gank someone properly. There are clips where they do that and he comes out on top. But a lot are just bad people playing bad. He did do ranked duels recently and he did place in master. That being said though placements through you against a wide variety of players. Some of the people he fought were pretty bad. And even then it's genuinely believed by the competitive community that ranked mode means nothing because it's flawed. Both players here are good. but they're not top players. Which is what the point of discussion is about.

HazelrahFirefly
11-28-2018, 12:45 AM
No going to platinum and up is the top 30%. Not the top 4%
Having a good player be able to do something with a bad kit doesn't mean the kit is suddenly good. Like come on.
Is it possible the top 2.5% and up don't play Mushu? Sure. That doesn't change anything said about his kit.
The competitive's tier list is a combination of top players opinion's who come to a consensus from the person in charge of it.
To even think that the reason why people think he's bad because "they don't know how to use him" is just absurd.
That's conspiracy theory levels of denial.

If looking at Aramusha's placement is too difficult for you to see objectively then look at the bottom of the data. Warlord is at the bottom. Why?
Because not many people are aware of/use his crashing charge mix up. Which that combined with some headbutts is why he's as high as he is for the tier list.
The only thing the data actually shows here is the massive difference between good players and great players.

The point of the data is for them to see how the changes they make to the game effect the highest level of play. Widening the pool (which they only did because not enough players play ranked. They only wanted to do master/grand master) would not do that.

EDIT: Also Kenzo and Faraam are no where near top levels of play. Kenzo at best is high mid tier. Maybe early high tier. Faraam's videos, as entertaining as they are, are mainly compilations of people who don't know how to gank someone properly. There are clips where they do that and he comes out on top. But a lot are just bad people playing bad. He did do ranked duels recently and he did place in master. That being said though placements through you against a wide variety of players. Some of the people he fought were pretty bad. And even then it's genuinely believed by the competitive community that ranked mode means nothing because it's flawed. Both players here are good. but they're not top players. Which is what the point of discussion is about.

Talk about denial, to think Faraam is not a top player.

I was speaking far more to Ara's 4v4 stats, of which he is picked in the middle of the pack, placed 2nd for wins, and is out of the top 4%. All that seems pretty obvious, what with me mentioning 4% a bunch of times.....

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-28-2018, 01:24 AM
For me in 4v4s if it helps... I ignore him like I do with orochi and farm revenge off them. I to suck at fighting Ara with Shugoki...mostly because he has rocksteady so getting a DE wall splat shuts down my backup plan when I am not awake enough to deal with his feint spam.

Knight_Raime
11-28-2018, 02:58 AM
Talk about denial, to think Faraam is not a top player.

I was speaking far more to Ara's 4v4 stats, of which he is picked in the middle of the pack, placed 2nd for wins, and is out of the top 4%. All that seems pretty obvious, what with me mentioning 4% a bunch of times.....

Unless he's actually participating and regularly performing well in skrims/torunaments I highly doubt he is. I've yet to see him in any tournament i've actually watched. But then again I don't watch as many as I used to. 4v4 stat's are just as incorrect as the duel stats. This doesn't account for team makeup. This doesn't account for pre made teams or solo que. This doesn't account for if it's said person's main or if it's just a good player making good plays on the kit. Doesn't account for what the player is doing in the match either. He could be farming minions. he could only be back capping. or he could be constantly slaying the whole team. The devs might have the knowledge on this. But we don't. And it's because we don't that the data is basically irrelevant to us. This is the problem with only showing win/loss.

Siegfried-Z
11-28-2018, 10:27 AM
No going to platinum and up is the top 30%. Not the top 4%
Having a good player be able to do something with a bad kit doesn't mean the kit is suddenly good. Like come on.
Is it possible the top 2.5% and up don't play Mushu? Sure. That doesn't change anything said about his kit.
The competitive's tier list is a combination of top players opinion's who come to a consensus from the person in charge of it.
To even think that the reason why people think he's bad because "they don't know how to use him" is just absurd.
That's conspiracy theory levels of denial.

If looking at Aramusha's placement is too difficult for you to see objectively then look at the bottom of the data. Warlord is at the bottom. Why?
Because not many people are aware of/use his crashing charge mix up. Which that combined with some headbutts is why he's as high as he is for the tier list.
The only thing the data actually shows here is the massive difference between good players and great players.

The point of the data is for them to see how the changes they make to the game effect the highest level of play. Widening the pool (which they only did because not enough players play ranked. They only wanted to do master/grand master) would not do that.

EDIT: Also Kenzo and Faraam are no where near top levels of play. Kenzo at best is high mid tier. Maybe early high tier. Faraam's videos, as entertaining as they are, are mainly compilations of people who don't know how to gank someone properly. There are clips where they do that and he comes out on top. But a lot are just bad people playing bad. He did do ranked duels recently and he did place in master. That being said though placements through you against a wide variety of players. Some of the people he fought were pretty bad. And even then it's genuinely believed by the competitive community that ranked mode means nothing because it's flawed. Both players here are good. but they're not top players. Which is what the point of discussion is about.

Well that the point.

All of this discussion is just people saying such the same thing but from a different "level" pov.

The problem just come from not having the same "high level" definition.

I don't even care about Tournaments players .. How many are they ?

While i agree all Youtubers aren't good (Kenzo for example is not that good) some really are.

Faraam is one of them, Faraam level is what i consider beiing a real high level player, such as Frisksz, Sororus, Flux Deluxe, Nate Cadillac, Thunders gaming etc.

Maybe he's got Master, but firstly he goes among the top of Master and don't forget he is a 4v4 player. Having to play 1v1 is very different.

PS : as they gonna nerf all unlock tech WL gonna be really trased untill they rework him.

Knight_Raime
11-28-2018, 10:57 AM
Well that the point.

All of this discussion is just people saying such the same thing but from a different "level" pov.

The problem just come from not having the same "high level" definition.

I don't even care about Tournaments players .. How many are they ?

While i agree all Youtubers aren't good (Kenzo for example is not that good) some really are.

Faraam is one of them, Faraam level is what i consider beiing a real high level player, such as Frisksz, Sororus, Flux Deluxe, Nate Cadillac, Thunders gaming etc.

Maybe he's got Master, but firstly he goes among the top of Master and don't forget he is a 4v4 player. Having to play 1v1 is very different.

PS : as they gonna nerf all unlock tech WL gonna be really trased untill they rework him.

I would consider Faraam a high level player. But there is a difference between high tier and top tier play. High tier is basically the best of everyone else. And top tier is the best of the best. These are people who regularly skrim with other top players and often place well in tournaments/win them. A few examples of these top players are alernakin, Baarace, setmyx, legion unchained (though I don't think he plays anymore, Skorabrand. There are maybe 20 active/semi active top players. Don't have numbers on how many there used to be.

Of the list you gave I would consider flux a high tier. Not nate or thunders. and I am not familiar with frisk or sororus. And yes. But they said that they're going to buff him in compensation for the nerf to his crashing charge mix up. For reference what highlander got was called a balance pass. And he became a monster. So we really don't know what will become of warlord.

But anyway the whole point of the different tiers of skill comment really just boils down to this. Any player that is really good can do really good with any kit. This doesn't impact the tier list because tier lists are based on factors that don't really pay much attention to skill beyond assuming both players play perfectly. The duel tier list is primarily based on match ups. Aka the more postitive/even match ups you have (or conversely the less poor match ups you have) the higher you can be placed. Berzerker for instance is the best duelist in the game because he's currently got no unfavorable or poor match ups. Where as someone like conq is specifically lower because of a few bad match ups. The other primary factor is how safe you can be while being offensive.

In aramusha's case none of his offense is safe. and he doesn't have any match ups that are widely in his favor. His only noticable thing about match ups is reflex guard heros have a tad harder time defending against his 400ms soft feint attacks due to the nature of buffering guard switches when hit stunned on specifically reflex guard heros. So against them he can do "slightly" better. But that's it. This is why he's considered bad in duels.

4's is about what you can bring to a team fight. Any hero that can apply pressure in an external situation is great. And heros that can often/easily enable other heros is strong. This is why raider is considered a pretty high pick. due to his 50 damage unblockable/unparryable chained zone and his stampede charge. Where as it's difficult for Mushu to set things up for an ally. And he can't really exert pressure in an external situation. Infinite combo is more harmful than good because you just continue to build revenge for the person blocking you. Though ararmusha can be alright when it comes to anti gank due to target swapping a lot. (though this was nerfed a bit with his last set of changes making his chains slower.) Ara does have some decent feats for team play though. So that helps him some.

But as I said earlier, tier lists don't apply to majority of players unless they're someone who regularly skrims/participates in tournaments. The only reason why I mentioned high/top play here is because the whole point of the data is to show what kind of impact ubi's changes have at the top level of play. But the data they give is flawed. In duels it's flawed because they're not grabbing from the top 1%. And for 4's it's flawed because we lack all the variables for info. Like what the person was doing in those matches they won. their k/d. if they were solo queing or were running with a team. etc.

Either way the devs need to give us more info than their giving currently. as right now the data is useless for everyone.

Siegfried-Z
11-28-2018, 11:37 AM
I would consider Faraam a high level player. But there is a difference between high tier and top tier play. High tier is basically the best of everyone else. And top tier is the best of the best. These are people who regularly skrim with other top players and often place well in tournaments/win them. A few examples of these top players are alernakin, Baarace, setmyx, legion unchained (though I don't think he plays anymore, Skorabrand. There are maybe 20 active/semi active top players. Don't have numbers on how many there used to be.

Of the list you gave I would consider flux a high tier. Not nate or thunders. and I am not familiar with frisk or sororus. And yes. But they said that they're going to buff him in compensation for the nerf to his crashing charge mix up. For reference what highlander got was called a balance pass. And he became a monster. So we really don't know what will become of warlord.

But anyway the whole point of the different tiers of skill comment really just boils down to this. Any player that is really good can do really good with any kit. This doesn't impact the tier list because tier lists are based on factors that don't really pay much attention to skill beyond assuming both players play perfectly. The duel tier list is primarily based on match ups. Aka the more postitive/even match ups you have (or conversely the less poor match ups you have) the higher you can be placed. Berzerker for instance is the best duelist in the game because he's currently got no unfavorable or poor match ups. Where as someone like conq is specifically lower because of a few bad match ups. The other primary factor is how safe you can be while being offensive.

In aramusha's case none of his offense is safe. and he doesn't have any match ups that are widely in his favor. His only noticable thing about match ups is reflex guard heros have a tad harder time defending against his 400ms soft feint attacks due to the nature of buffering guard switches when hit stunned on specifically reflex guard heros. So against them he can do "slightly" better. But that's it. This is why he's considered bad in duels.

4's is about what you can bring to a team fight. Any hero that can apply pressure in an external situation is great. And heros that can often/easily enable other heros is strong. This is why raider is considered a pretty high pick. due to his 50 damage unblockable/unparryable chained zone and his stampede charge. Where as it's difficult for Mushu to set things up for an ally. And he can't really exert pressure in an external situation. Infinite combo is more harmful than good because you just continue to build revenge for the person blocking you. Though ararmusha can be alright when it comes to anti gank due to target swapping a lot. (though this was nerfed a bit with his last set of changes making his chains slower.) Ara does have some decent feats for team play though. So that helps him some.

But as I said earlier, tier lists don't apply to majority of players unless they're someone who regularly skrims/participates in tournaments. The only reason why I mentioned high/top play here is because the whole point of the data is to show what kind of impact ubi's changes have at the top level of play. But the data they give is flawed. In duels it's flawed because they're not grabbing from the top 1%. And for 4's it's flawed because we lack all the variables for info. Like what the person was doing in those matches they won. their k/d. if they were solo queing or were running with a team. etc.

Either way the devs need to give us more info than their giving currently. as right now the data is useless for everyone.

Frisksz often play with and against Flux Deluxe ;)

Thunders gaming has vids where he meets and destroy FluxDeluxe, Spliced, Mege, Havok and so on so i would say he is.

I never seen the one you talk about but heard a lot their names, i'm gonna check this is interesting.

Anyway of course top players are at another level than high level ones.

In my opinion this is just more interesting to look at high level because guys are good enough and they are more people.

Of course Musha is not as strong even on console in 4v4 as these last stats show.. specially against very good players. Hopefully he has good target switching in anti gank and good feats. That save him and remain him viable.

Don't get me wrong too, i don't say Musha is a very strong pick. Just viable and not as trash as people use to say.

About the stats, of course it would be far more efficient if it could be split in at least between Console/PC and by rank. It would be funny to see the huge difference between a win ratio list for Platinium players on console compared to Master one on PC :D

Knight_Raime
11-28-2018, 11:53 AM
Frisksz often play with and against Flux Deluxe ;)

Thunders gaming has vids where he meets and destroy FluxDeluxe, Spliced, Mege, Havok and so on so i would say he is.

I never seen the one you talk about but heard a lot their names, i'm gonna check this is interesting.

Anyway of course top players are at another level than high level ones.

In my opinion this is just more interesting to look at high level because guys are good enough and they are more people.

Of course Musha is not as strong even on console in 4v4 as these last stats show.. specially against very good players. Hopefully he has good target switching in anti gank and good feats. That save him and remain him viable.

Don't get me wrong too, i don't say Musha is a very strong pick. Just viable and not as trash as people use to say.

About the stats, of course it would be far more efficient if it could be split in at least between Console/PC and by rank. It would be funny to see the huge difference between a win ratio list for Platinium players on console compared to Master one on PC :D

Majority of the people I mentioned don't regularly make content. Alernakin does. but afaik none of the other ones really do.
A video beating someone doesn't mean much unless it's something that's done consistently. but I digress.
Yes technically speaking aramusha isn't trash tier. No hero is. all heros are viable till you enter skrims/tournaments with the best of the best.

Siegfried-Z
11-28-2018, 11:57 AM
Majority of the people I mentioned don't regularly make content. Alernakin does. but afaik none of the other ones really do.
A video beating someone doesn't mean much unless it's something that's done consistently. but I digress.
Yes technically speaking aramusha isn't trash tier. No hero is. all heros are viable till you enter skrims/tournaments with the best of the best.

Where can you look at tournaments then ? Dispite my 137 reps in the game i've never take time to watch this so i don't know.

Knight_Raime
11-28-2018, 12:03 PM
Where can you look at tournaments then ? Dispite my 137 reps in the game i've never take time to watch this so i don't know.

I would regularly check the competitive sub. Usually if a community tournament is being held it will be posted there. You can also ask around there to see if anyone's recorded past tournaments. as someone usually does. I think Alernakin recently uploaded a video commenting on the final match of a 4v4 tournament.

Siegfried-Z
11-28-2018, 12:53 PM
I would regularly check the competitive sub. Usually if a community tournament is being held it will be posted there. You can also ask around there to see if anyone's recorded past tournaments. as someone usually does. I think Alernakin recently uploaded a video commenting on the final match of a 4v4 tournament.

Thanks for the tips i'm gonna look at this

HazelrahFirefly
11-28-2018, 01:16 PM
Unless he's actually participating and regularly performing well in skrims/torunaments I highly doubt he is. I've yet to see him in any tournament i've actually watched. But then again I don't watch as many as I used to. 4v4 stat's are just as incorrect as the duel stats. This doesn't account for team makeup. This doesn't account for pre made teams or solo que. This doesn't account for if it's said person's main or if it's just a good player making good plays on the kit. Doesn't account for what the player is doing in the match either. He could be farming minions. he could only be back capping. or he could be constantly slaying the whole team. The devs might have the knowledge on this. But we don't. And it's because we don't that the data is basically irrelevant to us. This is the problem with only showing win/loss.

Oh I agree, and that could be said about every hero.

Which also means that, since Ara is placed 2nd and 4th in the two sets of data we have from S7, he's fine. Dare I say, good.

Knight_Raime
11-28-2018, 09:58 PM
Oh I agree, and that could be said about every hero.

Which also means that, since Ara is placed 2nd and 4th in the two sets of data we have from S7, he's fine. Dare I say, good.

You shouldn't be basing your understanding of a hero based on incorrect/incomplete data.

Aramusha and every other hero is viable enough in the game unless you start playing in the highest skill bracket where skrims/tournaments are available.
This does not mean Aramusha's kit design wise is good nor does it mean he and any other kit out there shouldn't get changed to be better at those levels.

Which is my point. I'm not saying you can't do things with Mushu. I'm saying that fundementally his kit is bad.

BadBOO17
11-29-2018, 01:19 AM
Yep i answered at too many post at the same time and confound to what you was answering, my bad ;)

No worries bud, sorry if i sounded like a **** in my response

RexXZ347
11-29-2018, 03:56 PM
Alright. I said it. As an Aramusha main since marching Fire, I realized it. He ain't too bad.

I know this will start a ton of salt from other Aramusha mains, but I'll explain it anyway.

1. Good openers
2. Debunking the backdodge theory
3. Strong mindgames
4. strong defense
5. high damage
6. fast attacks
7. Rework
8. why people say he is bad
9. conclusion

1. good openers:
i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. You use it to start your combos. Many say that an opener needs to be a 50/50 which guarantees damage and be in the middle of an attack, but these are not openers, but just attacks. An opener is for example PKs first light, Kenseis top heavy or raiders side heavy. Orochis zone isn't an opener but an attack because you can't keep going with your combos after throwing it. Everything clear? Good.
Aramusha has 3 good openers.
a) His forward dash Heavy:
It has hyper armor, a ton of range, has heavy attack-attributes and is feintable at any moment. Because of being feintable, parrying, dodging or deflecting it, is never safe because he can just feint it to a guard break. Thus most people will just block it and this is exactly what you want as an Aramusha. After the dash attack gets blocked, you can start your deadly feints by just doing another top heavy (before his rework, if you threw a dash attack, you would just throw your first heavy. I think this wasn't listed in the patch notes and basically no one knows that) and there you go: you opened up the enemy. If the enemy starts to understand what you're doing and starts to parry your dash heavy, bait him and feint it to a gb. you just created your very own 50/50 opener, either let it fly and go to your combos or feint it to a gb, do a top heavy and then go to your combos. Considering that this is a stupid idea, from the enemies perspective, he will just block it after some time and you will go to your combos. this is actually a very strong opener, considering it's immense range, which will beat high range heroes, and it's hyper armour which makes it impossible to hit you out of it. If you're an Aramusha main and never thought of this opener, use it. a lot. after some time of getting used to it, explain to me again then, how he has no openers.
b) His zone:
other then orochis or kenseis zone, his zone is indeed an opener. the first part is 500ms, the second unblockable. either the aramusha lets its unblockable fly or feints to a gb. it tracks backdodges, feint to dash attack beats roll attempts and it deals a lotta damage. why people complain? because "the first part is ez parry!" but this is wrong. 500ms attacks are hard to parry, even on pc. if he throws his zones randomly, it becomes very hard to react to it (of course, if he spams it like 80% of all aramushas, then it's going to be easy) and even if you can react to the indicators then too, he could just throw a side heavy from the same direction instead, which would hit the enemy, if they would've tried to parry the zone. this works kinda the same way as centurions heavies, which are also seen as safe from the community.
Well, although his zone is a good attack, it's not necessarily a good opener, considering that only one part of its 50/50 leads to further attacks. on the other hand though, it deals 35 hecking damage, which is good enough for one offensive.
c) his first lights:
yes you heard me correct, his lights are good openers. I found out from a youtube video that he can throw lights from opposite directions with barely any delay, same as all assassins but he is the only static guard hero who can do that, and this makes his first lights as hard to react as orochis first lights or gladiators first light or any other assassin, you get the deal. for this to work properly, you need to throw a light and switch the guard at the same time. you'll learn it quite fast.

2: Debunking the backdodge theory:
Many people say that you can simply just backdodge aramushas deadly feints (which are aramushas main combo) but I debunked this.
Here's the video to it: https://youtu.be/LKfyFa0UD2s
this means, that he can counter everything the enemy tries while he does his deadly feints, and this brings us to part 3.

3: strong mindgames:
this leads to the enemy constantly being on pressure on what they're going to do. throwing another chain light in your mid combo also beat all dodge attempts and the very high rewards of actually catching a backdodging enemy (40 dmg) makes it very unlikely that they will try to dodge away all too often. This leads to his deadly feints (which are a 33/33/33 for the enemy because he needs to guess correctly which side you'll go with, thus a 66% chance of hitting the enemy) being very strong attacks and forces the enemy to do a lot of reads. Also, if we add all other possibilities and reads, then we get around a 50% chance for the aramusha to hit the enemy and an average damage of around 25 per correct read. that means, if aramusha guesses correct 3 times correct in a row, if the enemy and aramusha would guess randomly what they're gonna do, aramusha would do 75 damage in around 4 seconds. mathematically speaking, he is strong. but practically he is even stronger, considering that basically no one can do this (neither the ara nor the enemy) in such a pressure and speed, thus his deadly feint 33/33/33 with an average damage output of 26,66 are his main combos with additional backdodge catching.

Tldr: his mindgames are good but complicated as hell.

4: strong defense:
Blade blockade is one of the best defensive options in the game. to hold it simple, it beats light spam by just doing it in the middle of someones combo. his recovery is also so fast that you cannot guard break him out of his blockade on reaction. if you would try, you would end up getting hit by a side heavy. if you would try to bait the ara and then go for a gb, the ara could just try to parry normally and beat the gb attempts because his heavies have absolutely no guard break vulerability, which makes it also super safe to try to parry unblockables (just be aware that his top heavy is might too fast to feint on reaction).
Only problem is his slow walk speed which makes dodging quite hard, but you'll get used to it.

5: High damage:
his zone does 50 damage. his blade blockade punish is 30 - 50 damage. his OOS parry punish is 85(!). Guessing incorrect in his deadly feints, leads to an average of 26 damage (in comparision, conquerors 50/50 (16% higher chance of reading correctly for the enemy) only does 19 average damage.).
Do i need to add anything? i don't think so.

6: Fast attacks:
His deadly feint lights are 400ms and can be delayed, thus they are unreactable on all platforms. say whatever you want, but only 0,1% of the entire community can regularly parry 333ms attacks. to say that he is trash because 0,1% of the community can block him on reaction is just laughable. also, everything else he has is also quite fast, he has no 600 ms lights.

7: Rework:
His recent rework in season 8 was a BUFF. It made his dash attack a proper opener (before his rework, it would only lead to his first heavy, not his second), it made his damage values better and his deadly feints more viable. I know, i know, his side heavy doesn't guarantee a top light anymore, but it does far more damage now. although his normal side heavy from neutral does now 2 less damage (which is no difference anyway), his wallsplat side heavy always only did 33dmg and now it does the proper damage of his side heavies, making his blockade into kick actually somewhat viable. His deadly feint side lights don't guarantee a top light anymore, but now they are 400ms. before his rework, they were actually blockable or even parryable on reaction for many people, especially on pc but now, since they are unreactable, they shouldn't do 35 damage. imagine berserkers heavy feint to light would do 35 damage. Many people complain that you can just backdodge his deadly feints = nerf but 1. i debunked that and second, it was the same before his rework too, so i don't understand how it can be seen as a nerf. another thing changed are his chain lights. because his top chain light is now 500 ms which is honesly a great change. why? because first, it reduces the light spam strenght, thus the aramusha needs actual skill to beat the enemy and second, aramusha was completely BROKEN against any assassin. it was many times impossible to block aramusha, even when you knew where his lights would come from. it's no wonder why he has a high win percentage against all assassins on season 7. im happy that they changed this, this also makes him less overpowered in low level fights which is exactly what the devs were looking for.
In total, i think its fair to call it a rework, because of how much his moves and his playstyle has changed. it's also a buff, because most of his changes were positive ones and his infinite light nerf was basically unavoidable, considering how broken it was.

8: why people say he is bad:
Because they don't know his full potential. they think all he has is light spam and when they hear that his light spam got nerfed, they think that he got nerfed. its also bad that many of his moves arent even listed in his moveset, for example before his buff that he would get a free top light from any side heavy or that his blockade stun, would make guard breaks invisible. i think people just need to learn him far more and discover all the great things he has. i bet that many who are reading this also thought that ara is bad but didn't knew at least 2 things that i have listed here.

tldr: git gud.

9: conclusion:
Aramusha is (in my opinion of course) a good hero, a viable hero, a competitive hero. im not suprised where he stood in the duel win matrix of season 7 and 6 and i'm quite sure that he will rise even higher when we get the matrix for season 8.
if you're an aramusha main and still think that he is trash, think about all the potential that he has, think about all the great things i listed and ask yourself:
"Am I out of touch? no, it's the other heroes who are strong".

Your statement is true... On a low level gameplay. But on mid and high tier fights. Man, you wish he will be buffed. I wonder if you ever fought on a high level gameplay where your opponent can literally almost block all your attacks because i did. Even the zone can be blocked. Even parried. The video you showed was just low level gameplay. Fighting a noob. Do you think feinting into gb works all the time? Do you think veteran players are dumb to always fall for that? Plus his rework in s8 is a buff? Lol. Before i can block aramusha lights. Now i can parry aramusha lights. Even if you have 1 million damage in one hit. If it hits in 20 secs it does not matter. You still lose. That's the concept in the aramusha. How can you use the added damage if you are constantly being parried? Again, your statement works only on low level game. But in mid and high level game where the player with the fastest reaction wins? It won't work dude. Play more for honor and you will understand. I am doubting that you are an aramusha main.

Georg_Reshetov
12-01-2018, 10:04 AM
a) The Win Matrix has now been released for season 7, putting Aramusha in a hot no. 4 spot in the duel list, with a 53% win rate. Knight Raime seems to be basically proven wrong by the overall numbers... The Win Matrix is now more exclusive than earlier, as explained by Ubi, who now only pick Master and Grand Master for this list.

My personal view: Georg may be right on Aramusha, globally! I think that the classes in For Honor now offer such a multitude of movesets, that the more theoretical detailed explanations just don't cut it. Reality beats theory. So all these fine points offered by Knight Raime just dont cut it in reality?? They will make you a better player up to a given point, beyond that, they are not significant enough and basically not correct. So to sum it up: Everybody agrees Aramusha is perfectly fine at low to mid tier, and now the Win Matrix confirms Aramusha as no 4 in GM tier.:)


b) on "just step back/block".
Knight Raime is correct that the Aramusha can't hit anybody who basically block or step back. But I think he overestimates the value of that fact! You see it in the duel list now, if the defender wants to win, he will have to attack, and then it seems the Aramusha now is on par with everybody except Conq in terms of win rates. In a 4v4 scenario, I think the Aramusha is intended to be a defensive Hybrid, not meant to pursue and defeat people who "just block" . This is just how he is. But that is such a rare scenario, most of the time is hack and slash and glorious combat :P

Again theory tends to lose out to reality in my view :) I just love to play Aramusha in 4v4 or Breach, his feats are just brilliant (heal on Minion kills, rocksteady).

I agree with everything you said besides the backdodge thing. I think i shared a link which shows how you can beat backdodges

Georg_Reshetov
12-01-2018, 10:07 AM
A whole lot of what you said is either A: Wrong or B: pointless to mention given the abilities of other heroes
Thus I feel the need to go through your whole post and point out some inconsistencies etc along the whole thing

1. good openers:
"i hear this every day. "Mah Aramusha has no openers REEEEEEE" but I don't think people know exactly what "opener" really means. A opener is a combo initiator. "

WRONG an opener is nota combo initiator. an opener is a move or combination of moves that allows a hero to open up turtlers, of whihc the aramush has none. our best opener is hard feinting a dash attack into a grab, and even that can be tech-ed out of. GUESS WHAT thats what any hero can do. when people talk about openers they are never refering to peoples opening move hard feintability... cause everyone can do that.

ALL 3 openers you list are A not openers, and B far more punishable in higher skill levels than you let on.
1 his dash top heavy, Most of how you use this is correct, and how I use the forward dash heavy, but its still not the best opener. many other heroes can easy parry this, or block it to counter punish in many ways and also thus still have the ability to counter guard break. This absolutely isnt an opener.
2nd you list his zone... I have many times tried to use this as you describe. feinting to a GB hardly ever works, if the opponent back dashes the GB doesn't connect. even the first hit is parryable. you can get hit out of it after the first hit by bashes. and even letting it fly the opponent can just dodge instead as its extremely telegraphed. Again this isn't an opener.

3rd you mention his lights..... This was the first time where I thought you might be an idiot. Lights as slow and telegraphed as the aramushas are will almost always be parried/blocked. they can't be feinted (cause they are lights) and the bounce off doesn't allow you to continue your combo. Anyone can open with a light... and its not a good opener. This is like saying something like: The shugoki is top tied cause he can light attack!..... This is stupid for Reason B pointless to mention.

Next you bring up back dodge theory
I partially agree with you here. I've had generally less issues catching back dodgers than some people admit, but certainly it is a tactic that still works unfairly well against the aramusha compared to other heroes. HOWEVER a good opponent will always succesfully dodge a deadly feint... simply because if they see you attack twice from the same side they will appropriatly time their back dodge.

"3: strong mindgames:"

...............................Wat? any hero/player can mindgame. this is all skill and speaks nothing for whether the character is good or not. I main aramusha. I do well as him, but it's not cause hes phenomenal at mindgames thats for sure. His mixup mindgame is fun, but it isn't anywhere more powerful than almost any other heroes mind games can also be..... This is again Pointless to mention... Reason B

"4: strong defense:"
BB comes out fast yes... but any good player can taunt it out of you and then punish massively because of how bad its recovery frames are. about the only thing BB works for is countering other hero infinite chains, because they often wont want to feint to continue. AND too much of our kit is locked behind this. In high tier play unless you are fighting an infinite chainer it is always safer to go for parries than BB
So I label your point for as an A: your just wrong. Studdy the frames for the move.

"5: High damage:"
I cannot disagree with this. Ara has high damage.

"6: Fast attacks:"
Deadly feints as many have already discussed can be easily evaded right now... other than that our lights aren't even light spam speed sitting at 500ms. there are tons of better fast attackers. our chained heavies tho are quite fast, but again extremely telegraphed and parry-able. I label this a B case: Pointless to bring up cause so many other characters have it better than us here too.

"7: Rework:"
B case his rework was both a nerf and a buff. you cant look at it as a one sided coin... some aspects of his kit that were fun to use were nerfed and his kill potential was increased. to me overall I feel it was a nerf, but this is really an opinion thing and pointless to even mention really.

"8: why people say he is bad:"
Again.... full potential is a case B
Any hero can be decent in the hands of a very skilled hard-feinting player. discussing potential is pointless, except when discussing potential of abusable mechanics, of which... he has none. this is very much pointless to bring up. very much a case B


"9: conclusion:

I agree that he is very viable, just maybe not for duels. but I think you still overrate him for the wrong reasons.
The reason I play aramusha is the strong synergy with certain of my teamates. Aramusha with proper use alongside a shinobi can wreck most people because of how they can feed off of eachothers harrassing tactics. I love the aramusha. I feel he is still very fun to play, but his Identity is somewhat lost, and much of his kit for solo purposes is useless entirely.

One thing I want to see changed is I want a side dodge attack. Of some kind. similar to kensei or assasin I don't care. The guy is supposed to be an Assassin Heavy hybrid. and he barely fits that bill at all. Neither his heavy nor assassin role is truly defined. he doesn't have the mobility mid combat that assasins have, nor does he have the control and unblockable/strong GBs that heavies have. He needs a better dodge. There are many other things that I would bring up for potential changes here if I had time but I dont. So heres my TLDR:

most of what you said was pointless for comparison sake, and a few things you said are straight wrong, but I still love playing aramusha.

I stopped reading after your first point because of how stupid it is. You can't backdodge the unblockable and YOUR term of opener is wrong because I clearly said that i mean combo initiator and not whatever you think opener means.

Georg_Reshetov
12-01-2018, 10:10 AM
Well you were wrong on quite a few things so I can name more than one:

● What an opener is - An opener is something that must force a reaction from your opponent and can be relied on to get you damage. What you were talking about are chain starters and that's not the same thing. A Kensei top heavy from neutral is not an opener. His soft feint into pommel strike is the opener. Warden's shoulder bash is an opener. Aramusha does not have an opener.

● 500ms attack being hard to parry even on PC - no, they're not.

● Strong mind games - He has very predictable mind games. Everything Aramusha does sans the 400ms deadly feint side lights is counterable on reaction. And you can back dodge out of range of his 400ms sides lights if you think he'll use them.

● Strong defence via blade blockade - Against spam it's very good but at high level nobody will be silly enough to use light spam against an Aramusha. BB is very easy to overcome once an opponent starts feinting and having an over reliance on BB at that level will result in free GBs for your opponent.

I could go on but Raime already covered these things and more and really your reply should be directed towards him instead of brushing it all under the carpet.


It's not really theory though when he's pointing out obvious flaws in the OP's points. Whether Raime plays Aramusha or not is irrelevant to the points he was making about the character's kit. Secondly, has the OP as you say, "spent time tryharding with Musha"? What do you mean by try harding? Do you mean having a Diamond ranking or above with Aramusha? Or do you mean being a serious competitive level player that has won a tournament using Aramusha? Because playing ranked and winning a competitive tournament are two very different things.

Aramusha is one of my favourite heroes and I have about 19 reps in the guy. He's not as bad as Shugoki in my opinion, he does have some power to him. But at higher levels he just cannot cut it because he cannot compete with the likes of S to A tier heroes like Conq, Zerker, Kensei, Warden, etc. At low to mid-tier level Ara is great to use and has no problems. At high level he starts to struggle as players can confidently shut him down without worrying about having to deal with any kind of opener from him. 400ms deadly feints gave him a nice bit of extra pressure but opponents can learn to avoid having to deal with that by either back dashing, dodge rolling or using a dodge attack.

And so we're back to him being shut down at high level by anyone who has bothered to learn and adapt to his tweaks. He no longer has a guarranteed top light after side heavy thereby weaking his wall splat and light parry punish. So in reality he got given 400ms feints that work wonders at low to mid level play but will never land at the higher levels (because players constantly learn and adapt at this level) while losing a move/punish that was actually useful all throughout low to mid to high level play. Sounds like a bad tradeoff to me any way I try to look at it. And last but not least even though we may not play at the competitive level we still have to consider the fact that nobody has won a competitive tournament with Aramusha.


I generally just try to shut them out and use pokes such as my zone, top light and occassionally helm splitter if I can't go more aggressive. If they're a bit more cautious I can start getting into my soft feints. JJ and Nuxia are pretty standard to engage since they can't really dictate the pace of the fight. For me Tiandi and Shaolin are trickier due to Kensei's slow attack speed being a liability. It restricts how much I can go into my soft feints so I have to buckle down and use less moves/press less buttons. If my opponent knows what they're doing I have to chip them down gradually and focus on making correct reads on them.

Tiandi's palm strike is the main culprit in making him a tough customer to deal with. Proper spacing helps neutralise the threat from his palm strike but you don't always have the luxury of a prolonged 1v1 in a 4v4 mode. Shaolin for me is the trickier one. He can go full on aggression for quite a while before running down his stamina and a few of the stuff he can mix up into forces me to make reads rather than simply react, which could be down to me. With both of them though I find that If I can slow down the fight by proper spacing and resets then I have the advantage.


It's actually way more inclusive than ever, despite what Ubi write in their blog post. If you check the top right corner of the win matrix it starts at "Platinum" and above, which is much, much wider than the previous 2.5% of players. It means this data is including mid to high level players, which explains why Aramusha is so high and Warlord is bottom place. This data is too skewed to be of any use as a judge of how competitive a hero is. At best it's a representation of mid to high level play as those are the majority of the data sample size with Master and Grandmaster being pretty much drowned out because they're a much smaller sample size.


In reality Aramusha has not won a competitive tournament and his pick rate in competitive scrims and tournies is so non-existent that the devs had to branch out all the way down to Platinum just to get enough representative data on all the heroes. That's like 30% of all players who play ranked duel. 30%..... With that wide of a pool I'm surprised Shugoki wasn't higher up in the win chart.


Not in GM tier. In Platinum and above. We don't know how much of that data is really coming from Platinum and Diamond versus Master and Grandmaster. If Ubi wanted any kind of accuracy from this data they would have seperated the data up into contextual charts and presented it as follows:

1) Platinum and Diamond win matrix + hero pick rates
2) Master and Grandmaster win matrix + hero pickrates
3) Just the Console win matrix
4) Just the PC win matrix
5) All of the above data smushed into one big win chart & pick rate

If only they did this ^ then we would get a much more detailed and much, much more useful set of data from which to base our opinions and comments on. My only hope is that Ubi does actually do this internally for themselves at least otherwise their data is practically useless to them without the proper context.

Just because you say opener needs to force a reaction or 500ms is reactable doesn't mean it's true. You're just saying stuff without any proof and you need proof to disprove someone.

Example: i disprove you when you said shugoki is c tier. He is s tier. Is this a disproval? No.

Georg_Reshetov
12-01-2018, 10:19 AM
Your statement is true... On a low level gameplay. But on mid and high tier fights. Man, you wish he will be buffed. I wonder if you ever fought on a high level gameplay where your opponent can literally almost block all your attacks because i did. Even the zone can be blocked. Even parried. The video you showed was just low level gameplay. Fighting a noob. Do you think feinting into gb works all the time? Do you think veteran players are dumb to always fall for that? Plus his rework in s8 is a buff? Lol. Before i can block aramusha lights. Now i can parry aramusha lights. Even if you have 1 million damage in one hit. If it hits in 20 secs it does not matter. You still lose. That's the concept in the aramusha. How can you use the added damage if you are constantly being parried? Again, your statement works only on low level game. But in mid and high level game where the player with the fastest reaction wins? It won't work dude. Play more for honor and you will understand. I am doubting that you are an aramusha main.

I am the in the 0.1% of best players in the game, i am rep 156 and have a kd of over 2 with aramusha.

I was obviously not fighting the opponent but just showcasing how ara beats backdodges.

Sorry that I didn't read the rest of your post, it's just too frustrating to read.

Vendelkin
12-01-2018, 10:41 AM
@Georg_Reshetov
Your stat calling is meaningless unless you provide pictures or links to back it up. And even then you are obviously discussing this topic with other players of skill and passion for the aramusha... and thus number calling is kinda pointless.

Two short things. You are trying to change the vernacular used regularily in discussion regarding openers. Openers mean one thing to this community. Chain starters mean another. Please stop trying to change the meaning of these terms and just use them like everyone else does.

Second using any part of someone else's post to cop out and:

"Stopped reading"

Is very childish. Especially after in your opening post you taunt and characterize a large portion of the player base with use of phrases like "REEEEEEE"
...which will cause a lot of players to stop reading.

POINT BEING: if you can skim someones post and tell them they are wrong then you cant expect us to read your posts or take them seriously.
Especially when there are things you say in responses (to me and others) that are also blatently incorrect and youd know that if you actually tested them with a friend.

Seriously. The frequency with which you just decide to stop reading what you are quotin is sad. Two of your last three posts say something close to : i stopped reading because i was frustrated.

Vendelkin
12-01-2018, 10:58 AM
ALSO

... You can't backdodge the unblockable ...


......................I literally just went to the arena just to make sure. You can absolutely single back dodge the unblockable every single time with every single character.................

Diegis.
12-02-2018, 01:54 AM
people wake up! top picks ? wtf is this ? if i main other chars than the top tier but i still kick *** with them is there a problem? aramusha is strong. alongside any other hero as long as you play the role of the hero you play. for example u cant pick shugoki and go ham like an orochi. and as i said many times before, feints and mindgames. each hero has the upper hand if played right and if you as a player are comfortable with the moveset. if i play some hero i dont master his moveset i usually get nailed, if i play smth i feel comfortable and i know well i dominate the battlefield. its just how well you know your hero and his limits. not onlu his strong points but also the weak ones. then you have a general idea and can IMPROVISE<ADAPT>OVERCOME