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View Full Version : General balance and Shugoki



Eradian
11-13-2018, 10:50 PM
Note: I'm a Shugoki main, so I mostly discuss Shugoki, because he's what I know.

So let me start by saying, I get what happened to the game... well once the meta was first established. The game quickly turned into a staring contest or someone wasting their who stamina bar just to bait out an attack that probably wasn't safe. So to counteract this the game was sped up and characters got unblockable turtle breakers to stop this. Which... alright it's kind of annoying, especially on console when I'm 100ms or less late on a dodge or parry cause my opponent has 90 more ping than me and I'm not using a quick character. (I mean for real I can't tell you how many times I've seen my guy, mid animation or just straight up doing the animation and I get anyway)

So what the hell do we do about the characters that can't open someone up? In particular Raider and Shugoki (but mostly goki). I mean hell, I often find myself feeling bad about getting annoyed by Wardens, because if they couldn't shoulder bash their character is on par with Raider. Naturally then I just think well, why hasn't Raider or Shugoki gotten an unblock opener or some other kind of... well anything really. And for Shugoki this has been a problem in a game since launch (I'll ignore beta cause GBs were like kryptonite back then... ah the glory days). I remember getting my Shugoki to rep 3 and hearing about a tourney that I joined... and lost immediately cause of the dash cancel heavy disqualified him (he was the only character I had any skill with). I mean once that nerf came, which it should have no doubt, Shugoki was just a wimp outside of 4v4s and even then he's only used for demon's embrace.

Now, if one of the devs happen to read this firstly did we get a date or any kind of time frame on that Shugoki rework? Also could we see one for Raider by chance? I apologise if I've missed an announcement on these I don't have a lot of time to watch all of the warrior's den.

Here's some suggestions on how to make the big boi a little better.
1) he's the trading character perhaps give him a second layer of hyper armor against succeed attacks. For example Warden's side lights, instead of losing the hyper armor on the first hit lose it after the second hit, but he still loses it to GB or 1 heavy.
2) You can't back dash or stance dodge the demon's embrace. Can't tell you how many times I've run into the opponent with this attack and I just can't help but feel utterly crushed, because I just lost the fight.
3) Heavies are unblockable. Alright hold on... I know, but think about man can you really not parry a Shugoki heavy? And with this make it either a charged heavy, so he has to commit, or just a completely uncharged heavy, so there's no discrepancies and to make up for how strong this would be.
4) LET THE HEADBUTT LEDGE PEOPLE! Lordy Lou I can't tell you how frustrating that is.
5) Does he really need to take extra damage AND hurt himself AND lose hyper armor on miss of the demon's embrace? Can we just not take damage from that? Or at least have one of these negatives removed (preferably the damage on miss to keep it more balanced)?

Here's some suggestions for the game as a whole.
1) Give everyone an opener... or make them like Kensei where he's the mixup god. This is where the game is headed anyway and I think that will balance everything so much more!
2) Instead of balancing PC and console separately make the chain attacks parryable or the end of chain attacks parryable. For example the 3rd hit of Orochi's light chain.
3) Change the deflect window to include i-frames to make deflects more consistent
4) Don't allow people to dodge into the direction of an attack who can't deflect or something like superior block
5) Incentives for rematches on! Holy cow can't tell you how annoying it is to reque after every game
6) Changeable characters. Now... I'm not sure if this would work, but I've thought it would be interesting if you could change characters on death or had to, or you picked say... three and you rotated between them on death. This one is more for a fresh take on the game, but something I thought might interest people.
7) This is for the Dev's and less for the game, but a more concise Warrior's Den. Tell us what you're working on, what you want to do, and tell us what you think of a few big topics. I mean you go through the last few of them and what... hour, hour and half, two hours, hour and fifteen minutes. Which... ok fine, but can we get an edited version or at the start of the show can you talk about what will be discussed first? I'd like to have time to see the big stuff and play the game since I don't have a lot of time.

Well these are just a few thoughts I've had. I'm not really a forum guy, but I thought hey... maybe this could help.

UbiInsulin
11-13-2018, 11:31 PM
Thanks for the write-up! Shugoki is definitely a hero that the team is looking at, and I've seen many of your suggestions for changes elsewhere.


5) Incentives for rematches on! Holy cow can't tell you how annoying it is to reque after every game
This is an intriguing suggestion for sure.


6) Changeable characters. Now... I'm not sure if this would work, but I've thought it would be interesting if you could change characters on death or had to, or you picked say... three and you rotated between them on death. This one is more for a fresh take on the game, but something I thought might interest people.


Hero-switching would make for a very different game.



7) This is for the Dev's and less for the game, but a more concise Warrior's Den. Tell us what you're working on, what you want to do, and tell us what you think of a few big topics. I mean you go through the last few of them and what... hour, hour and half, two hours, hour and fifteen minutes. Which... ok fine, but can we get an edited version or at the start of the show can you talk about what will be discussed first? I'd like to have time to see the big stuff and play the game since I don't have a lot of time.


They do the best they can to keep it concise while also expanding on subjects that the community might be interested in. There's been a lot of new content since the release of Marching Fire, which has definitely bogged them down somewhat I think.

If they run through changes too fast, they lose the opportunity to expand on their reasoning.

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 11:40 PM
Well bro for some hero’s u need to be superb player with superb connection to be able to use them .

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-13-2018, 11:48 PM
He will probably get a sifu stance, DE controler layout change, more move sets, faster DE without one shot, penalties removed, a bash for OOS pressure, slightly faster attacks....Some of that stuff he doesn't need.

What he will not get is unparriable heavies with chip damage which he needs aswell.

How do I know this?
OOS bash pressure.... He is pretty useless without this.
Sifu stance.... Why they Nerfed his stamina recently?
Move sets.... Always added on reworks
DE layout change... Like Vals sweep... They want to make him more noob friendly.
One shot Nerf... Everyone including shug mains are saying to get rid of it.
Health Penalties and DE speed.... Nearly every time shugoki is brought up ubi comes back asking if this change would be helpful enough.
Speed of attacks... This happens often enough with reworks and given shugokis speed it would seem to be highly likely.

At least that is my take. I hope he gets to keep his armor on a successful counter gb

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 11:50 PM
Why berserker light attacks cannot be interupted ? 🤔

Goat_of_Vermund
11-14-2018, 09:39 AM
How it would work if we would remove the passive hyperarmor (while giving him lots of actives), and would make him unstaggerable by all light attacks?

p0wn3rki11
11-14-2018, 01:34 PM
I like your ideas, as for the rework, it was confirmed like in may and has been radio silence ever since. I slightly disagree with you on a couple things:
1)Goki should not lose hyperarmor if he counters a guardbreak. Seriously it is like the biggest cheese this game has next to ledging someone when you are 4v1 against them.
2)Goki should lose a bit of health or his hyper armor on a wiffed demon's embrace, but not both.
3)Not a disagreement, just something to add: Why does goki take more damage when he loses hyper armor? That really shouldn't be a thing imo.

But i need not go on, i posted my rant on the forums ages ago (though it is in the suggestions/feedback and now i am wondering if i put it in the wrong place....oops) You make some valid points and i cannot agree more when you asked for a time frame for the big boi's rework because wow i cannot find anything on it besides clickbait goki montages from like july.