PDA

View Full Version : Lets talk a way to overpass the TURTLE meta



Hexagar
11-13-2018, 03:13 PM
Hello warriors i was thinking of a way to battle the greatest FOR HONOR problem ATM...

How to deal with defencive meta in the game so i came up with an idea that i think will open up the fighting in the game!
What if heavy attacks coulldnt be blocked at all? Heavy attacks though slower should be more punishing to block.. parry can remain
the same but block attempts on heavy attacks should make the defender stample and lose balance and open to a free light attack.
That way i think ppl will be pushed to play more openly and game will be much more enjoyable IMO. Whats your opinion on that?
Could that help the current situation? Pls share your thoughts on this change!

Goat_of_Vermund
11-13-2018, 03:21 PM
46505 Centurions like this post.

SangLong524
11-13-2018, 03:22 PM
Like the fight with Guardian?
I think what make Turtle meta great is the player's capability to parry. There's guard switching delay, i don't think they can block all the time.
I personally prefer an opener like Tiandi's Palm Strike. No damage but a guaranteed light. You can still dodge the raw opener, or guess and dodge the hard feint opener or dodge on reaction. Good thing is that such opener can't be feinted. it's fun

Hexagar
11-13-2018, 03:26 PM
IDD u are right but centurion is one out of 22 different characters, it isnt that bad to bring his heavies in the same speed with others , right?

Hexagar
11-13-2018, 03:27 PM
Like the fight with Guardian?
I think what make Turtle meta great is the player's capability to parry. There's guard switching delay, i don't think they can block all the time.
I personally prefer an opener like Tiandi's Palm Strike. No damage but a guaranteed light. You can still dodge the raw opener, or guess and dodge the hard feint opener or dodge on reaction. Good thing is that such opener can't be feinted. it's fun

The guardian only throws heavy unblockables and he does dmg if u dont parry.. im talking about stample when u block a heavy and only the chip dmg as it is will happen... stample though will leave u open for a free light

BadBOO17
11-13-2018, 03:33 PM
We already have a way with dealing with turtles especially on console. Its called light spam (of the 400ms kind) and its way worse than any turtle ever.

SangLong524
11-13-2018, 03:34 PM
The guardian only throws heavy unblockables and he does dmg if u dont parry.. im talking about stample when u block a heavy and only the chip dmg as it is will happen... stample though will leave u open for a free light

stample? you mean stagger? stumbling back with no guard just for a moment for a light to sneak in? but only a light, no more?
let me see if i understand it correctly, heavy cannot be blocked, only parried. They don't deal full heavy damage but chip damage if blocked? it's effectively a lesser version of a connected UB?
I must say it sounds good. With hard and soft feints as well as parry still around, it could work.
And the guardian throws lights too. it hurts slightly less.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2018, 07:29 PM
Nah. See it's not the tools that are the problem. it's the ease of use of them when combined with some poor offensive mechanics These changes would make defending against attacks difficult. But still possible to be as strong as we are defensively now. You'd just have to become a much better player:

~Everyone gets reflex guard and any reflex guard (if any exist at this point besides the buffer one) are fixed.
~Current standard guard heros get the decay rate of current assassins reflex guard. Assassins get the decay of shinobi's guard.
~all chain starting lights have the enhanced light property (preventing them from blocking an opening light and resetting the fight back to neutral)
~Light attacks now cause chip damage. Heavies cause slightly more chip damage than current, and drain a bit of stamina when you block them.
~Varied ms increments so people are forced to learn character speeds.
~Global stamina changes. Everyone gets a bigger stamina pool and stamina regens slightly faster. Stamina draining attacks get nerfed and only pause your stamina regen when OOS.
~deflect frames now take priority over I frames.

UbiInsulin
11-13-2018, 07:55 PM
We already have a way with dealing with turtles especially on console. Its called light spam (of the 400ms kind) and its way worse than any turtle ever.

I do tend to hear this more often than I hear worries about defensive meta. What do you guys think is currently the case?

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 08:08 PM
I tell you what is the case . Heavy attacks are useless . Way too slow way to predictable . No heavy attacks are not blocked thatís too easy they are parried 99% of the time . Why would you throw a heavy attack to lose stamina to get parried and then destroyed ? You see what is the problem ? I wish dodge is faster followed by heavy then I would never stop playing kensei but they mťnage to screw they cry babies kensei is op jj is op .

Devils-_-legacy
11-13-2018, 08:22 PM
I do tend to hear this more often than I hear worries about defensive meta. What do you guys think is currently the case?
Yep imo the defensive meta died after the parry gb was disabled

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 08:30 PM
Yep imo the defensive meta died after the parry gb was disabled

Wow wow , Iím still getting blocked and parried all the time when I use my heavy are you playing For Honor game? What game is this maybe we have different games . Let me guess PC ?

Devils-_-legacy
11-13-2018, 09:05 PM
Wow wow , Iím still getting blocked and parried all the time when I use my heavy are you playing For Honor game? What game is this maybe we have different games . Let me guess PC ?
Ive played on every platform put ended up on ps4
and heavy parry only gives you a light and a light parry nets you a heavy. Imo the defense meta was when a heavy parry gave you a GB or heavy as the best way to get damage in was to stand still and parry any attack as it was the most viable for all heros

MuscleTech12018
11-13-2018, 11:10 PM
Hello warriors i was thinking of a way to battle the greatest FOR HONOR problem ATM...

How to deal with defencive meta in the game so i came up with an idea that i think will open up the fighting in the game!
What if heavy attacks coulldnt be blocked at all? Heavy attacks though slower should be more punishing to block.. parry can remain
the same but block attempts on heavy attacks should make the defender stample and lose balance and open to a free light attack.
That way i think ppl will be pushed to play more openly and game will be much more enjoyable IMO. Whats your opinion on that?
Could that help the current situation? Pls share your thoughts on this change!


HAHAHAHA ! What TURTLE META dude ? do you even played this game since season 1 ?

BadBOO17
11-13-2018, 11:38 PM
I do tend to hear this more often than I hear worries about defensive meta. What do you guys think is currently the case?

Cracking a good turtle is hard but at least the person is using a skill and understanding of the game to avoid damage from an opponent. Its maybe frustrating for the attacker but if the defender is using characters like lawbro, shugo, raider, and other characters that dont have great offensive capabilities, then their defense is their best tool to use.

This light spam meta is worse than dealing with anyone defensive minded is because they win by pressing one button(light attack button) to unleash what you guys have wanted "attacks that arent supposed to be reactable" over and over to win. Theres no mind games, no out playing, no tactics, just press one button to win (at least console wise).

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-14-2018, 01:31 AM
If we are talking about the strongest strategy used by the populas of For Honor as referred to as meta it would currently be light spam.

I understand that "light spam doesn't work at high level play". In general it is the best strategy currently used by players of all types.
Under this definition of meta the turtle meta died when it no longer became the best strategy for the general populas.

Is it possible that turtling still works best at high levels but light spam is the new meta?just a thought. IDK. maybe there is another ceiling above that filled with exploits and forcing reactions for the truly elite.

Blitzwarrior771
11-14-2018, 02:09 AM
I always hated orochi but more then that I hated turtles Iím glad they having hard time with all this spam fest . Nobody would ever suggest to nerf turtling .

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-14-2018, 02:26 AM
Turtling is being gradually Nerfed anyways with each new rework. Faster attacks, better openers/bashes, new defense counters like trap ect.

Vicariously at least.

DefiledDragon
11-14-2018, 03:07 AM
There are a couple of ways to "crack the turtle meta" in this game, but they will never see the light of day because the designers are focusing on attack. This games issues aren't rooted in attack, they're rooted in defence. It's too easy to defend.

1. Everybody has a reflex guard with a 100, maybe 150ms delay. Parry window is reduced to 50ms, maybe 100ms. Light attacks no longer "bounce off" somebody's guard. Suddenly, throwing a heavy from neutral doesn't seem like such a terrible idea and light attacks are actually threatening.

or

2. Two stamina bars, one for attack, just as it is now and one for defence. Defence stamina is depleted at a rate of 1/2 for blocking a heavy attack, 1/4 for blocking a light. Defence stamina regenerates at 1/4, maybe 1/3 the rate that offensive stamina does. Once your defensive stamina is depleted, you can no longer block any attack and will receive full damage. This promotes offence rather than defence and would mean that players would be more likely to throw attacks because you literally can't turtle forever and attacking your opponent is less risky.

Unfortunately, this entire discussion is moot because the developers are single minded in their pursuit of cheese. Soft-feints, bashes, to a lesser extent dodge attacks and unreactable lights. These are the future so better get used to them.

In my opinion, this game will never be balanced to a level where competitive play is viable. The designers just don't know what they're doing. The whole "art of battle" system is fundamentally flawed and needs to be redesigned with the emphasis on making defending more difficult rather than making attacking easier. Making attacking easier by implementing unreactable soft feints and light attacks and unblockable bashes etc... will work to break the defensive meta, but it will also leave players feeling like they've been cheated because they were hit by an attack that they could do nothing about because they happened to guess the wrong way. If they follow that route, FH will essentially be a game of football where both teams get ten penalties each and whoever's goalkeeper guessed right the most times wins. It's a piss poor way to design a competitive game, even a casual one, but I honestly don't think the designers know what they're doing, or have the experience required to create the right environment for either casual or professional PvP.

The game should be skill based. There should be no guessing involved. This isn't craps, where you throw a dice and hope for the best. It's a fighting game.The outcome of each fight should be based on skill and skill alone, not guesswork.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-14-2018, 03:20 AM
A couple YouTube's tend to blame the parry system and there is no rock, paper ,scissors mechanic. But I agree there will never be balance as this game is too far gone.
Personally, their are too many variables so idk how to solve it. I would suggest giving slow heavy classes unparriable heavy attacks with chip as a way for them to "safely" attack but that still doesn't solve many other issues that have been added to cover up the core mechanical failure.

Blitzwarrior771
11-14-2018, 03:34 AM
yeah if we say nerf turtling it means nerf turtling and not buffing light attacks . How simple is that ? Problem with turtling is they block and parry heavy attacks no problem itís 100% move .

Tyrjo
11-14-2018, 09:53 AM
The turtle meta is long gone. Long live the spam and soft feint meta. -.-

Goat_of_Vermund
11-14-2018, 11:09 AM
Heavy attacks do land with proper mindgames (if the opponents expects a light parry, they fail the parry timing). Turtles suffer against any properly designed character with openers and mixups. Lightspam itself is not a big deal either. Both are frustrating, but neither works from avarage level. The real meta is the bash meta now (just look at the strongest characters).

BaelinFisherman
11-14-2018, 05:04 PM
I do tend to hear this more often than I hear worries about defensive meta. What do you guys think is currently the case?

On console, 400ms lights are absolutely ****ing stupid. On PC, while annoying. barring a really high ping, they aren't a threat or counter at all to the turtle meta. I just explained this in another post, but turtles WANT you to throw light attacks. A light, for a good turtle, is a confirmed parry or deflect, since you can't feint a light attack. It is always commited. I see really good turtles completely ignore heavy attacks, because they can. They take a risk trying to parry a heavy so they just block them, or if they can tell it's commited they parry it, or bait one out (baiting Kensei's side heavy, for instance).

400ms attacks are not a threat to turtles. It does nothing to kill the turtle meta.

SangLong524
11-14-2018, 09:56 PM
Im afraid the people around here speak truly. Turtling is still an effective strategy but it is not prominent anymore. I see far fewer turtles than light flashers, save for a few heroes, which they kind of HAVE TO turtle.
But truly, heavies are useless without mind-games.

Honorless_
11-15-2018, 07:42 AM
Nah. See it's not the tools that are the problem. it's the ease of use of them when combined with some poor offensive mechanics These changes would make defending against attacks difficult. But still possible to be as strong as we are defensively now. You'd just have to become a much better player:

~Everyone gets reflex guard and any reflex guard (if any exist at this point besides the buffer one) are fixed.
~Current standard guard heros get the decay rate of current assassins reflex guard. Assassins get the decay of shinobi's guard.
~all chain starting lights have the enhanced light property (preventing them from blocking an opening light and resetting the fight back to neutral)
~Light attacks now cause chip damage. Heavies cause slightly more chip damage than current, and drain a bit of stamina when you block them.
~Varied ms increments so people are forced to learn character speeds.
~Global stamina changes. Everyone gets a bigger stamina pool and stamina regens slightly faster. Stamina draining attacks get nerfed and only pause your stamina regen when OOS.
~deflect frames now take priority over I frames.


I've talked this over with other players and I agree pretty much with everything here. One other important aspect of reflex guard is you can't see where the opponent is guarding initially (This is most obvious with nobushi's hidden stance, but works with the assassins as well). The first light being able to go through would also be a good fix, since you could actually start a combo without having to throw out an obvious heavy. Stamina I think is ok on some characters but could use some work with others. I don't really like the direction of "let's make everything faster" and guesswork, and there should be more to the game then just getting lucky lights that are extremely hard to react to at times. Blocking in its current state is too safe (you're only moving your guard), and you're building revenge, so it's no surprise that turtling is an effective choice. These changes I think would help balance the players offensive and defensive capabilities. However, implementing some of these would require a complete overhaul of the mechanics, and I don't see it being very likely to change.