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View Full Version : how could marseille beat 16 foes all by himself?



raaaid
05-28-2007, 04:05 AM
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes

i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner

i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it

raaaid
05-28-2007, 04:05 AM
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes

i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner

i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it

jermin122
05-28-2007, 04:44 AM
cuz spitfire is under modelled in real life. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Badsight-
05-28-2007, 04:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i suppose . . . . . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>which is something you like to do

. . . . . endlessly . . . . . not letting the facts talk but trying to re-spin it into something else

FluffyDucks2
05-28-2007, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes

i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner

i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you ever stop to think that maybe,just maybe, those 1500 people were RIGHT, and you were WRONG. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Hoatee
05-28-2007, 05:01 AM
If you were capable of going 'against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it' you would be SlickStick's alter ego.

Ruy Horta
05-28-2007, 05:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes

i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This thread is similar to the ammunition one.

1. Marseilles didn't fly or fight solo, he was part of a team.

2. The Bf 109 although a relatively maneuvrable aircraft faced mainly more maneuvrable types over the deserts of North Africa.

3. He did employ the vertical though and he did develop an almost legendary gunnery skill.

alert_1
05-28-2007, 05:56 AM
How? Easy: he flew me109... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

LStarosta
05-28-2007, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes
i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner

i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're ******ed. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

raaaid
05-28-2007, 07:27 AM
you are discounting http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Pirschjaeger
05-28-2007, 07:40 AM
How could Marseille beat 16 by himself?

1) His time was before Oleg's. Willy built his ride.

2) His foes were trained by HayateAce.

3) His 109 had a beer holder.

4) He fought only noobs.

5) His his beer holder had beer.

AFJ_rsm
05-28-2007, 08:01 AM
he was an AFJ at heart

Pirschjaeger
05-28-2007, 08:08 AM
an AFJ with German beer.

Very scary http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

tigertalon
05-28-2007, 08:15 AM
The report lodged by Unteroizier Rainer Poettgen, who served as Marseilles wingman:

"All the enemy aircraft were shot down by Marseille that day in a turning dogfight. As soon as he shot, he needed only to glance at the enemy plane. His pattern began at the front, at engine's nose, and consistently ended in the cockpit. How he was able to do this,hitting his mark so precisely in a hundredth of a second, he himselft couldn't even explain, and as a result, can't relay his secret to his comrades at arms.

With every dogfight, however, I was able to notice that during a turning duel he would throttle his plane's speed back as far as possible. This enabled him to fly a tighter turn and be a bit lower than his opponent. Then, with a sudden burst of fire, the enemy would be splattered across the sky. His ammunition expenditure in this dramatic air battle came to a total of 360 rounds."

During this dogfight Marseille shot down 6 enemy planes (south african P40s) despite the fact that his 20mm cannon jammed after he fired just 10 rounds.

Pirschjaeger
05-28-2007, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tigertalon:

With every dogfight, however, I was able to notice that during a turning duel he would throttle his plane's speed back as far as possible. This enabled him to fly a tighter turn and be a bit lower than his opponent.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I've often argued this helps you turn faster. I've been accused of cheating cause I could turn inside the same model a/c in a 1 vs1.

It's also the secret to a perfect hammerhead.Why can people understand something so simple?

Tailbutcher
05-28-2007, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
thats why i like so much the guy always solo fighting more numerous foes

i suppose he got them into a turning duel being him the best turner

i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ask Tagert, he'll make it up as he goes along, as he always does, yea that's the answer.In fact, he's jumping in his own "Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine" ( i'm dating myself here) to make it all better. Lets wait and see.

Manu-6S
05-28-2007, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
1. Marseilles didn't fly or fight solo, he was part of a team.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this statement: the "problem" is that nobody wanted Marseille as wingman because he was a lone wolf, caring only for kills and not his duty.

Probably he was the worst teammate in Luftwaffe.

XyZspineZyX
05-28-2007, 10:04 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Throttling back to make a tighter turn is taught in flight school

Let's us not forget that real WWII combat pilots took real training, and didn't have to learn 'secrets' as a sim pilot

raaaid
05-28-2007, 10:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ask Tagert, he'll make it up as he goes along, as he always does, yea that's the answer.In fact, he's jumping in his own "Mr. Peabody's Wayback Machine" ( i'm dating myself here) to make it all better. Lets wait and see. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that peabody time machine sounds very interesting

he travel to notice history dint happpen as it was told

or was it that they had to correct history to reach their present?

XyZspineZyX
05-28-2007, 10:23 AM
It's from a cartoon show made in the 1960s. Mr. Peabody was a dog. He had a boy named Sherman. Juxtapositionary roles. I like the Fractured Fairy Tales part of the show the best

raaaid
05-28-2007, 11:10 AM
wow

so can i turn the spit harder by reducing throttle?

Xiolablu3
05-28-2007, 11:23 AM
Any plane travelling slower can turn tighter than if its travelling fast, so yes.

Thats why planes 'break' when they are bounced.

Philipscdrw
05-28-2007, 11:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
wow

so can i turn the spit harder by reducing throttle? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or the Cessna 172.

Gliders can turn so tightly they fly around the turn backwards.

bazzaah2
05-28-2007, 11:44 AM
To answer Raaid's question; because he's Chuck Norris.

WhtBoy
05-28-2007, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
wow

so can i turn the spit harder by reducing throttle? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is it possible that a fluid dynamics genius like you needs to ask this question? I mean, if only you can understand how all the aero engineers in the world are wrong, you should already know the answer to this question right? You should also know the difference between turning "tighter" and "harder".

--Outlaw.

raaaid
05-28-2007, 01:44 PM
yeah the monkeycharts can prove that a plane turning at 260 will turn better than other at 200 but who knows if charts are a lie

i suppose marseille techniques will remain unknown since probably he was reluctant to tell his nazi comareds

you can see that on the wingman guessing he eased on throttle instead of being just told by him

Stew278
05-28-2007, 01:53 PM
Don't most planes have an optimal turn speed?

Looking in IL2 compare it appears that the turn time vs speed graphs have a minimal value(~315kph on 109-F2) for example. So if you're flying in a 109 at that speed and slow down, aren't you going to increase you turn time? You'll have a tighter turn radius, but a slower turn rate by slowing down, or no?

So slowing down only improves your overall turn if you are above the max corner speed for your aircraft.

DuxCorvan
05-28-2007, 01:55 PM
Gah!

Last night I had a hard violent struggle against my penís, which I single-handedly won. The poor bald bastage had to lower his head in shame and fled with his tail between legs. 16 times, all by myself, in a week.

Marseille would have plucked off his eyes in awe.

WhtBoy
05-28-2007, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug

me all by myself against 1500 people and coming victorious out of it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because there is an inaccuracy doesn't mean it's a bug. Multiple people posted their duplication of the effect you are seeing so your, "...me all by myself...", comment is just a TOTAL LIE on your part. Please tell us WHY you made that statement when it's OBVIOUS THAT YOU ARE LYING.

Furthermore, the aforementioned people and others, posted the most likely reason for this effect yet you just ignore those posts.

Acording to your logic, the ENTIRE GAME ENGINE is one giant bug. Anything less than 100% realtime and 100% accurate CFD calculations will result in a less than perfect simulation. Therefore, per your logic, if the programmers choose to make simplifications and assumptions due to hardware limitations, then it's a bug.


--Outlaw.

WhtBoy
05-28-2007, 02:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
yeah the monkeycharts can prove that a plane turning at 260 will turn better than other at 200 but who knows if charts are a lie
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man, this is great. Please tell us why you are now disputing the following equation...

a=(v^2)/r

--Outlaw.

WhtBoy
05-28-2007, 02:39 PM
Hey raaaid, do you still believe you invented the lead pursuit?

--Outlaw.

Zoom2136
05-28-2007, 03:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
wow

so can i turn the spit harder by reducing throttle? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YEP... and play with your prop pitch to http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

CruiseTorpedo
05-28-2007, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stew278:
Don't most planes have an optimal turn speed?

Looking in IL2 compare it appears that the turn time vs speed graphs have a minimal value(~315kph on 109-F2) for example. So if you're flying in a 109 at that speed and slow down, aren't you going to increase you turn time? You'll have a tighter turn radius, but a slower turn rate by slowing down, or no?

So slowing down only improves your overall turn if you are above the max corner speed for your aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The charts I've seen are talking about sustained turn performance. There's other things you can take into account to improve your turn radius to essentially cut inside another plane's turn and be close enough to get a gun solution. Other things I mean by burning E, you can have a higher altitude than the enemy and drop a bit of flaps, cut throttle, then your instantaneous turn performance will be very good but it's all about timing timing timing. If you screwed it up you were hung out to dry, an easy target traveling slow and turning slow soon as your initial speed wore off.

Marsielle was excelent at the timing, but it took him a while to get it right and he was VERY lucky to survive long enough to learn what to do and when. He was shot down over and over again in the english channel. Flying against an even match (spits) he just didnt have the ability to make up for any mistakes and fly back home. Instead he got a belly full of lead! Over africa flying against P40s in the desert he could make more mistakes and still survive but he still came back to base full of holes many many times!

About him flying alone, he hardly ever did that while racking up the kills in the desert. His buddies were very close by circling over head watching his back so he could dive in attack, and while vulerable after those high G throttle back, flaps down manuevers they would keep his six clear while he recovered E.

Wonderful pilot, very big risk taker I'd say! If it werent for his engine going out causing him to die while bailing out I'd say the spits that were arriving in larger numbers would have had him sooner or later. The war went on too long for a guy like that to survive the entire thing from begining to end.

Zoom2136
05-28-2007, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stew278:
Don't most planes have an optimal turn speed?

Looking in IL2 compare it appears that the turn time vs speed graphs have a minimal value(~315kph on 109-F2) for example. So if you're flying in a 109 at that speed and slow down, aren't you going to increase you turn time? You'll have a tighter turn radius, but a slower turn rate by slowing down, or no?

So slowing down only improves your overall turn if you are above the max corner speed for your aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

YEP but you're forgetting that you only need to get an angle on your apponant to kill him...

CruiseTorpedo
05-28-2007, 03:16 PM
One really good analogy I read about the turn radius was to take two coins, a penny and a quarter. Say the penny is your avg p40 that can turn tighter but can't go as fast as the quarter who's the bf109. Now if they're both circling over and over the quarter will never get a shot on the penny, but take the quarter and move it's center towards one side and at one point you can get a shot, or lift one side of the quarter and again you can get a chance for a shot at each circle.

Kinda nice little visualization to go by rather than just getting told all you need is an angle to kill them. While yes all you need is an angle, but for someone knew to this that doesnt make much sense. Just can't "see it", least I couldnt when I first started

mandrill7
05-28-2007, 03:31 PM
Interesting tactics by Marseille - aside from the fact he was evidently extremely good at what he did. Everyone wants to fly the 109 in the vertical and B and Z, particularly against a slower, but maneuvrable a/c like the P-40. But Marseille T and B-ed.

Pregnant question: How did he maintain his E after those tight, low throttle turns?? He must have been an easy target for any Allied cover flights.

waffen-79
05-28-2007, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
How could Marseille beat 16 by himself?

1) His time was before Oleg's. Willy built his ride.

2) His foes were trained by HayateAce.

3) His 109 had a beer holder.

4) He fought only noobs.

5) His his beer holder had beer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO obligatory bump

tomtheyak
05-28-2007, 06:17 PM
Firstly: Marseille did NOT TnB with the Kittyhawks.

I have an old book from the 1950s called "The Fighter Pilots" By a guy called Edward H. Simms. He flew combat missions as a P-51 jock. After the war he went around interviewing some of the old aces (including Johnnie Johnson, Hartmann and Galland) about their most memorable missions.

Marseille being dead, he interviewed Joachim Poetter (IIRC) who was with him that day and eyewitnessed the whole shebang.

The Kittyhawks were flying a Lufberry (if you dunno what it is look it up) a pretty standard defensive move by Desert Air Force aircraft when faced with 109s (it was about the only trick they had!).

In standard terms a Lufberry is cool cos if your opponents a bit simple he'll roll in behind one of your chums, but because you're circling in a merry-go-round it instantly puts him in the gunsight of another member of the squad...

However, it also makes you very predictable. Marseille did NOT use TnB tactics (i.e bleeding off 'E' in sharp turns) he exectuted a series of impeccably timed BnZ attacks in the form of a flattened corkscrew and combined them with his masterful deflection shooting to hack fighters out of the Luftberry without ever putting himself in the gunsight of a following Kittyhawk.

The tactics Marseille used are the very essence of BnZ; where this TnB nonsense came from i have no idea.

FluffyDucks2
05-28-2007, 07:05 PM
Nicely put, Tom, in a word, EXACTEMENT! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Divine-Wind
05-28-2007, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
Gah!

Last night I had a hard violent struggle against my penís, which I single-handedly won. The poor bald bastage had to lower his head in shame and fled with his tail between legs. 16 times, all by myself, in a week.

Marseille would have plucked off his eyes in awe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

VW-IceFire
05-28-2007, 07:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
i feel like him here take as example my thread on the delayed tracers bug, of 1500 people nobody admitted the bug yet i succeded beyond discussion proving theres a bug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You did? I didn't see anything showing anything what you were talking about....would love to see that...

raaaid
05-29-2007, 03:27 AM
well when in next patch delayed tracers are corrected as i think oleg cares more on accuracy than to plz the most people will se if the delay in the tracers are a bug or is realistical

i also heard marseille was actually a bnz but how do you explain then his flying in formation with an enemy squad?

FluffyDucks2
05-29-2007, 04:01 AM
What colour is the sky in your world Raaid? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

raaaid
05-29-2007, 05:25 AM
once when i was 18 i got stoned and the sky glowed orange

i dont think ive totally recovered from my excesses

SeaNorris
05-29-2007, 06:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
once when i was 18 i got stoned and the sky glowed orange

i dont think ive totally recovered from my excesses </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you wonder why the world doesn't take you seriously http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

WhtBoy
05-29-2007, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
well when in next patch delayed tracers are corrected as i think oleg cares more on accuracy than to plz the most people will se if the delay in the tracers are a bug or is realistical </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now you're saying that Oleg purposely made the "...delay in the tracers..." because that's what everyone wanted?

--Outlaw.

raaaid
05-29-2007, 09:07 AM
nope its a bug

crucislancer
05-29-2007, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
nope its a bug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, you're a Troll.

Let me expand on that. Quite a few folks here didn't have the same problem as you, yet you continue to complain about it. I think we all understand now that you think there is a bug. Others, by your words 1500 people, disagree. I think it's safe to assume that the end result is that folks don't think it's a bug, so therefore it would be a good idea to just drop the issue.

Give it a rest, Raaaid. I think people are getting tired of hearing the same old BS from you, and it makes you sound like a meathead and a troll when you don't even bother to respond when someone offers you a valid explaination.

VW-IceFire
05-29-2007, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by raaaid:
nope its a bug </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It doesn't exist so it can't really be fixed so its hard to call it a bug. Really man.

XyZspineZyX
05-29-2007, 04:18 PM
Dynamic tracers were not modelled.

Bugs are flaws in software, not omissions from the software