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The_B0G_
11-11-2018, 04:00 PM
I'm making this thread to discuss a different way balance attacks and heroes, mostly the damage to speed ratio, as of now it feels like it doesn't matter how fast an attack is, some attacks that are very fast, with light weapons, do as much damage or close to the damage that slower attacks with heavier weapons have. There is little to no advantage in taking slower characters, it's actually a handicap using anyone but one of the new spammy characters.

I'm not saying that bigger weapons themselves should always do more damage, but I do feel that attacks that take longer, should definitely do a noticeable amount more that these very fast attacks.

Damage should scale in increments of 100ms for attack speed. 400 ms should do very little damage, no matter what hero is throwing it, because it is a fast attack with nothing behind it. I feel like 400ms attacks should be almost chip damage, 500 ms should do light damage, something around 10-15 damage and then scale up from there.

One thing about fighting that this game totally leaves out, is momentum. There is zero momentum in this game's attacks, landing a slow, powerful heavy should have much more of an effect than it does, because there's much more risk, it's way easier to defend against. Then you have characters like zerker who can literally cancel a powerful heavy attack just before it hits and follow it up with an instant hyper armor 400ms light.

It just feels cheesy to me how there is no accountability for throwing attacks in this game, you never have to commit to any attack at all and recovery on a feint is instant, even if you are literally in the air when you cancel it. The only time anyone has any recovery on a move is when they completely whiff, and even then some heroes barely have to recover at all.

Cooldowns/recovery times are non existent, feinting recovery time should depend on how late in the attack you feinted, if you wait until the last possible moment to feint when your attack is 95% finished when cancelled, you should not be able to hard feint and throw another attack instantly, that would put you off balance and make your attack weak. Watch any combat sport, feints are always a quick twitch of the hand or foot followed by the actual attack, no one makes it 95% of the way into a round house kick and stops to throw another attack, and if they did, they would probably get KO'd.

TLDR: I guess to summarize, the game is feeling less realistic and more fantasy with the route the devs are going, I feel we need to get back to physics and the gritty fighting the game released with.

Part of the solution, in my opinion, is to stop balancing attack damage based on the heroes total damage output and his kit, and instead keep damage ratios equal to the speed it takes to throw them, so if a character needs a damage buff on a certain move, raise the damage, lower the speed, make it look and feel more powerful, not just switch a number.

Moves can still be buffed with hyper armor and unblockable and stun effects to give them variation between characters.

Am I alone in wanting something like this, or is this new style of gameplay to everyone's liking?

Lord_Cherubi
11-11-2018, 04:28 PM
Absolutely agree. Heavy classes should feel thevway they look, throwing slow attacks with great power behind it.

Classes in general are starting to fade into oblivion, or can anyone say with a straight face that JJ is a true heavy? 😂

Tatsu147146
11-11-2018, 04:35 PM
Finally someone who actually takes into account real fighting techniques. I've been onboard with this kind of thinking since day one and have been hoping to find someone who thought the same. All I keep reading is posts with little to no relation on how these characters weigh, what weapons they're using, nothing all I see is buff this nerf that with nothing but personal preference in mind. I addressed this in a post I made on a character balancing idea but thanks to the spam bots its been pushed to the third or forth page. I've also made a couple of comments and other posts about the way characters would fight in real life but it seems that most of the community disregards realism in favor of cinematic fighting without realizing that cinematic fighting is the main problem with this game. I'm just glad there are still a few who do their combat research.

The.All.Father
11-11-2018, 05:10 PM
Finally someone who actually takes into account real fighting techniques. I've been onboard with this kind of thinking since day one and have been hoping to find someone who thought the same. All I keep reading is posts with little to no relation on how these characters weigh, what weapons they're using, nothing all I see is buff this nerf that with nothing but personal preference in mind. I addressed this in a post I made on a character balancing idea but thanks to the spam bots its been pushed to the third or forth page. I've also made a couple of comments and other posts about the way characters would fight in real life but it seems that most of the community disregards realism in favor of cinematic fighting without realizing that cinematic fighting is the main problem with this game. I'm just glad there are still a few who do their combat research.

Oh man. Realism? It didnt have such think since day one. Like what can katana do against LawDaddy armor. If we are about to take a mass and speed of weapons then Shugoni will be like a car with his mini tree in hands. There is absolutely no realism in this game and this company even add BS things to this. Dont even try to consider it realistic mate. Shinobi and Shaolin will kick this thoughts from ur head. I am just hurting that there is no balance at all for now.

Tatsu147146
11-11-2018, 05:53 PM
Oh man. Realism? It didnt have such think since day one. Like what can katana do against LawDaddy armor. If we are about to take a mass and speed of weapons then Shugoni will be like a car with his mini tree in hands. There is absolutely no realism in this game and this company even add BS things to this. Dont even try to consider it realistic mate. Shinobi and Shaolin will kick this thoughts from ur head. I am just hurting that there is no balance at all for now.

I know the game ISN'T realistic I'm stating that it should be. Also even though katanas can't SLASH Lawbringer armor in real life it can certainly STAB through it, they aren't as fragile as people think they are, they are in fact as durable if not more so than the western longsword. There are full documentaries on the katana that you can find on YouTube if you so wish. And as for Shugoki's kanabō in your statement I'm not sure I understand the comparison of " ...a car with his mini tree in hands." if you're stating that the weapon is devastating then yes you are correct. If you're stating that it is too slow than I encourage you to watch the Deadliest Warrior series if you can get your hands on it, particularly the episode of Samurai v.s. Vikings were they show a lot of the weapons and armor used here including the kanabō and how it was used and if you're strong enough it is incredibly effective.

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 07:55 PM
I would be in favor of 400ms attacks doing less damage. So long as the kits that rely on them got other means of being effective. This would only nerf pk and orochi more than they already are. Same with Nuxia (till her traps are fixed anyway)

UbiInsulin
11-11-2018, 09:57 PM
@Tatsu, We can talk about making the game feel more authentic, but FH is not really a sim.

@The_B0G_, wouldn't these changes incentivize very careful play so you don't risk getting caught missing a weighty attack? Basically, defend until your opponent makes a mistake?

Blitzwarrior771
11-11-2018, 11:42 PM
@Tatsu, We can talk about making the game feel more authentic, but FH is not really a sim.

@The_B0G_, wouldn't these changes incentivize very careful play so you don't risk getting caught missing a weighty attack? Basically, defend until your opponent makes a mistake?

That’s exactly what I hate about this game people who abuse defending to the max .

DefiledDragon
11-12-2018, 03:24 AM
Nerf blocking. Really. Just nerf blocking. All these defense related issues would magically go away if you make blocking attacks more difficult and less rewarding.

ArmoredChocobo
11-12-2018, 03:45 AM
If you’re gonna talk realism than a crazy cat lady with a tomahawk and knife shouldn’t be able to catch a fat guy’s Kanabo and push it away.

Tatsu147146
11-12-2018, 01:45 PM
Okay then, I see that again people seem to disregard that we have literally complained about every single cinematic move this game has, but nobody seems to care and instead want less realism to combat other unrealistic moves. All the characters with cinematic moves are either under or overpowered and characters with realistic moves have been left dead in the water. Let's take the balance problem piece by piece starting at season 1.

Season 1: In season 1 balance wise people were mostly complained about PK's lights and Warden's shoulder bash, now for unrealistic moves I'm going to include fast lights dealing high damage since making a move that fast in real life basically has to be a twitch of the wrist or a flick of the arm with little strength behind it. The unrealistic moves were in fact kept to a minimum, let's count them (now cinematic moves doesn't necessarily mean impossible but a bad idea in sword fighting that would have your limbs chopped off or instakilled) Nobushi's kick, Warlord's headbutt, PK's lights, most of the Knight's bashes, and Orochi's storm rush. I didn't include the charges some of the characters have because they are much more possible and like in real life they are easily punished nor did I include situational attacks like Shugoki's headbutt or demon's embrace because they are incredibly situational and require a setup like in real life. If I am missing anything please let me know. And how many of these did we complain about or eventually got reworked pretty much all of them.

Season 2: If you haven't already guessed that I don't want cinematic fighting in this game and whether you realize it or not that you the player doesn't either then you forgot season 2. The inclusion of Centurion and Shinobi, well the list of cinematic moves went off the charts with this season and we all know it. I would have to name more than three fourths of the Centurion's move set, his entire kit was outfitted with nothing but cinematic fighting his punch (it would get your bloody arm chopped off), his kick (same reason as his punch), his pin (in a survival situation you want to keep his sword on your shoulder and go for an instakill since it's his only form of defense), and most of all his cutscene move, as for Shinobi it was mostly his kicks for the exact same reason as Centurion, and his sickle rain. And what happened here, one hell of an outcry no one could say one good thing about Centurion and who could blame them. They have since been nerfed and what was once their strength is now their weakness.

Season 3: Here we see a little deviation from cinematic fighting a little bit but nonetheless there were still some. Highlander's kick and grab were the cinematic moves we got for this season and people had little problem with these characters but are two of the weakest. The characters were kept pretty authentic but they needed reworks or are just plain bad now.

Season 4: Second outcry the introduction of Shaman and Aramusha. Shaman was another character outfitted with unrealistic moves as her kit and was also despised and Aramusha kept his moves more or less authentic but was also weak in the ever growing amount of unrealistic fighting styles. Shaman has a bash were she uses her HEAD against her enemy, her tackle that reheals without any punish for missing, more damaging light attacks, and another cutscene of her biting you when most of these characters are wearing armor. Aramusha's kicks need a setup and are therefore very situational like in real life so they aren't counted.

Season 5: The first of the reworks here is where the light attack was given high damage with too much speed and the Conqueror proved it by having the highest win rate ever, Berserker proved it as well by having his light feint cause high damage relative to the speed it was going. And begin outcry number three.

Season 6: PK got her rework that fixed a lot of issues form before but Orochi (this was hard for me because he is my main) got fast light with relatively high damage for the speed it was going. Which is funny because in the animations for the attacks the heavy could go faster and the lights look like the actor is trying his hardest to make the light attack as fast as possible but the fight team wanted to keep Orochi one hand fighting instead of using his two handed sword and made him slap everybody with it instead of fighting with it as he should.

Season 7: Well here is where everyone was the most happy, a lot of characters were playing better, there were dedicated servers and Valkyrie got reworked. To clarify unlike other light attacks that were dealing high damage relative to speed she actually could do it as she uses most of her body to give weight on the attack giving both speed and damage. Things were looking up mostly.

Season 8: Holy hell this is where we get four new cinematic fighters and everyone hates them they will either say they are overpowered or underpowered I personally find them OP but that's unimportant. They brought a crap ton of cinematic moves from weapons moving to fast relative to their weight to moves that would get your limbs chopped off. Lets count, Tiandi's kick, palm strike, incredibly fast dodge attacks, and light attacks too fast for his weapon, JJ's Sifu's poise, way too fast and damaging lights, way too fast and powerful zone attack, and his ankle kick, Shaolin's triple light (who's problem really is that it requires no setup), and his kicks, Nuxia actually is more realistic (with the exceptions of her light attack speed to damage ratio) and is underpowered compared to the rest of the Wu Lin.

I didn't include unblockable attacks since some attacks in real life are too strong and need to be parried nor did I include hyper armor since most of the characters using it have enough armor to withstand the attack and press on or are in a drugged induced state that allows to continue that attack (e.g. Berserker). We have complained about all the cinematic moves either because they are too strong or too weak. To summarize we really never wanted cinematic move sets in the first place yet we decided to ignore it saying it's just a game but it seems that day after day people are beginning to lose the fun of the game and want things to change without addressing what the problem is, and simply shout balance.

The_B0G_
11-12-2018, 02:29 PM
@Tatsu, We can talk about making the game feel more authentic, but FH is not really a sim.

@The_B0G_, wouldn't these changes incentivize very careful play so you don't risk getting caught missing a weighty attack? Basically, defend until your opponent makes a mistake?

Doing this wouldn't change the move sets or timing for anyone, everyone would still have their full kits and fast lights, it would just give an actual payoff for using slower/risky attacks. You're suggesting that this would bring us back to the turtle meta, it would bring us into that direction, but I think we need to go a little back in that direction, the current spam meta is mentally exhausting, and just as unfun as the turtle meta in my opinion.

For a lot of the slow characters, the game is already like this (sitting back defending and waiting), you sit and wait because their kits are garbage, they usually have one semi fast light of about 500ms and slow heavy attacks that do mediocre damage, so the route this game is taking is only good for assassin's and fast spammy play style in the first place, now that stamina builds are gone, all you can do is sit and wait with the big slow guys because a couple feints and your stamina is gone.

Like I said in the post, HA, unblockables, stamina drain and stun can be put on to moves to give variation between fighters and make the heavy's harder to deal with.

It wouldn't completely change the way people fight, the quick easy openers just wouldn't do enough damage to be a viable move to over use, fast attacks would be used to open people up but spamming these fast attacks non stop wouldn't pay off if you get hit with a meaty heavy.

I'm just looking for something in between the two metas, the turtle meta wasn't fun at all, but it's getting to the point now that the constant too fast to defend against attacks are killing the fun in the game, it doesn't feel like anyone reacts to each other while fighting anymore, people just hammer through their characters hardest mixup to defend against over and over again, hoping their HA eats any hits that get through while they do it and if you have the faster character you have the initiative every time.

Doesn't it make sense that slower, harder to land attacks should do much more damage than attacks that can barely be reacted to, and 400 ms attacks that are meant to be unreactable?

It just feels like everyone hammers out all their fastest attacks constantly, only using heavy attacks to feint before going right back to those fast lights.

Even JJ feels more like an assassin than a heavy. With this new route it feels like no one besides a fast character is viable, the slow guys are useless, there doesn't even seem to be classes anymore when you look at all the new and reworked heroes, they all play the same, style wise.

SpaceJim12
11-12-2018, 04:07 PM
@The_B0G_, wouldn't these changes incentivize very careful play so you don't risk getting caught missing a weighty attack? Basically, defend until your opponent makes a mistake?

But we already have this problem. Even on average level of play people are very good in defending. Skilled players know almost everything about characters' kits. Do you know how many people I meet this days, who bited to Warden's UB top heavy feint? None of them.=) Right after rework it was a good tool, but couple months passed and everyone don't care. The best tactic when you almost dead is defend until revenge come. And if some skilled player decided to turtle, you'll never do anything to him. The defence in For honor are too easy to do. Unfortunatly.

@The_B0G_
It's a really good suggestion. I'm very doubt, that devs will do something like this, but it really could change game for better. Feint spam and light spam probably will be dead, if we'll get this changes.