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View Full Version : Shaman is the most versitile chracter, and subsequently maybe the best.



retrobacon74
11-11-2018, 01:07 AM
First things first i am trying to keep this thread as objective as possible, so pls keep that in mind when commenting.

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Shaman is the DLC assassin character from the vikings clan, added in season 4, along with aramusha. Shaman has 120 health and 120 stamina, the average health for an assassin and the average stamina overall. Her real appeal is all the different moves she has. shaman has the same thing as warden's side lights, where if the first one hits the second one is confirmed. just like shinobi, the second one does more damage if you change the direction, while then not being confirmed. This is really good as getting one light already confirms 15 damage, which hads up after a while. shaman really shows with her heavy though, as it does 27 damage. it does even more damage as a chain finisher, it becomes unblockable and does 40 damage, the same as warden's top heavy. The comparisons stop when you find out that shaman can soft feign it into a GB, which is confirmed if the opponent goes for a parry. this is really good, because if the shaman soft feigns it into a GB it won't be punishable if you dont go for a light or something, which wouldn't make any sense. onto shaman's zone. Her zone is especially good because if all of the attacks land it will do 50 damage in all. now of course after the first two the others are easy to block. it is still 25 damage though. you can also soft feign it into a bleed attack, which does 26 damage with 4X4 damge counting the bleed. totaling in 42 damage. as ya boi Phil Swift would say "THATS A LOT OF DAMAGE!" it does more damage than her heavy. that's really saying something. she can also soft feign her heavy's doing 1+4X4 damage, the same as the bleed damage on her zone soft feign. I think it is safe to say that her bleed is really good. An even better aspect to her bleed is that if she hits you while bleeding it heals her. while it only heals her like 5 HP per hit, it still adds up if she zones you or double lights you. this is really useful as she can heal by simply attacking you. Shaman can also use bite while you are bleeding, which heals her around 20-22 HP. Bite is confirmed off any throw. you don't even have to be closed to a wall. only a throw will confirm it. This is extremely good, because while being reactable, (assuming it's not confirmed on a throw) it is still fairly fast, and feignable at the very begging. You can not feign it as reaction to your opponent dodging like warden's shoulder bash, but it is still viable in mix-ups. next onto shaman's opener, it has all the same aspects as bit except instead of healing it confirms a double light or a heavy. this is really good because you can then throw another heavy which would be unblockable, and can be hard feigned for a mix up. you can also chain a heavy after a missed bite, but it idn't as effective but still usefull. another thing about shaman's heavies, the unblockable finishers can be softfeigned into a dodge, which can be extremely useful. shaman's deflect is extremely good as it does 18 damage plus 4X4 bleed damage.

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I think all of this evidence proves that Shaman is a very good and versatile character. My personal opinion is that shaman should get a damage nerf or something of the kind, without making her attacks do damage comparable to a pea shooter.


also please leave your ideas in the thread because i want to know what the rest of the community thinks.
please be kind tho. thank you for reading.

SixAxe505
11-11-2018, 01:21 AM
Bite should not be confirmed on a throw. At all, period, whatsoever. It does too much damage and heals and such. It needs a nerf. Speed or damage. It should be confirmed on wall splay, just like Demon Embrace, but not on a regular throw.

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 01:22 AM
Shaman isn't the best. In fact she's considered rather weak now. This is partly because all of her mix ups if read properly net her being GBed by the entire cast. And there are exceptions for stronger punishes. Like Centurion can dodge her pounce attempt and get a fully charged heavy. The second aspect that makes her not as strong is the fact that she doesn't have any good match ups against S tier heros. Every hero that's placed in front of her on the tier list has better match ups compared to her.

In high tier play Shaman is reduced to flickering her unblockable bash from neutral, using side dash heavy to punish most committed to attacks, and deflecting whenever possible to apply bleed. Parrying a light also gives you bleed (heavy soft feint into top light.) She's actually rather balanced due to having a lot of tools but fair and strong counters to her play. Every strong thing she has offers an equal punishment if her opponent reads her. Easiest example is her bleed is risky to do outside deflect because if it's parried it's a light parry. Same with going for anything in her zone beyond the first two hits. And dodging pounce or wild cats rage nets everyone a GB.

The only semi OP thing about her is how she works in ganks. She's the best ganker in the game because if she bites someone that person is dead. This is because in optimal play you can get two heavies on her pinned target while shaman bites. Meaning the target dies. And shaman herself doesn't even need to proc bleed. Someone else can do it for her via their kit or feats. This requires a lot of setup though. And it's why you don't really see this setup outside skrims.

iadvisoryi
11-11-2018, 02:10 AM
Shaman isn't the best. In fact she's considered rather weak now. This is partly because all of her mix ups if read properly net her being GBed by the entire cast. And there are exceptions for stronger punishes. Like Centurion can dodge her pounce attempt and get a fully charged heavy. The second aspect that makes her not as strong is the fact that she doesn't have any good match ups against S tier heros. Every hero that's placed in front of her on the tier list has better match ups compared to her.

In high tier play Shaman is reduced to flickering her unblockable bash from neutral, using side dash heavy to punish most committed to attacks, and deflecting whenever possible to apply bleed. Parrying a light also gives you bleed (heavy soft feint into top light.) She's actually rather balanced due to having a lot of tools but fair and strong counters to her play. Every strong thing she has offers an equal punishment if her opponent reads her. Easiest example is her bleed is risky to do outside deflect because if it's parried it's a light parry. Same with going for anything in her zone beyond the first two hits. And dodging pounce or wild cats rage nets everyone a GB.

The only semi OP thing about her is how she works in ganks. She's the best ganker in the game because if she bites someone that person is dead. This is because in optimal play you can get two heavies on her pinned target while shaman bites. Meaning the target dies. And shaman herself doesn't even need to proc bleed. Someone else can do it for her via their kit or feats. This requires a lot of setup though. And it's why you don't really see this setup outside skrims.

To keep it simple, you saying shaman is weak is insane. Her and zerker are the best assassin's. Not even sure how it's debatable

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 02:34 AM
To keep it simple, you saying shaman is weak is insane. Her and zerker are the best assassin's. Not even sure how it's debatable

Weak in comparison to the heros who are higher above her in the duel tier list. There is a difference. And i very clearly explained that all of her mix ups have hard punishes.

This makes her not a safe hero. And safety matters a lot for the tier lists.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-11-2018, 02:43 AM
Berserker is far and above Shamon both in ease of use, defense, and attack. Putting them in the same category is like saying nabushi and Shaolin are equals.

iadvisoryi
11-11-2018, 03:08 AM
Weak in comparison to the heros who are higher above her in the duel tier list. There is a difference. And i very clearly explained that all of her mix ups have hard punishes.

This makes her not a safe hero. And safety matters a lot for the tier lists.

If Im not mistaken, most of the FH player base is on console, right? Even in dual, she's safe, for console. Her match ups, insane. Her mix, dumb, her dmg and healing, dumb in both duals and even more in 4v4's. Like I said, I don't understand how it's even debatable that her and zerker are at the top of the assassin's food chain.

iadvisoryi
11-11-2018, 03:10 AM
Berserker is far and above Shamon both in ease of use, defense, and attack. Putting them in the same category is like saying nabushi and Shaolin are equals.

That comparison makes no sense. And zerker has mix, armor, that's it, parry him or outrange him and your fine, not the same for shaman, her kit is triple his, damage roughly the same, more poke, fast unreadable mix, bleed, grab, heal, like what

DefiledDragon
11-11-2018, 04:14 AM
Take away her bite, or give it the same properties as Shugo's hug, i.e. telegraphed with a twenty minute windup that's only really viable on wall splat along with a huge punish (pretty much certain death) if it misses, and she's fine within the context of the rule set laid out by pre existing characters. Oh yeah, remove the heal on hit that comes from her blood trance because that's ******** too.

Some of the characters in this game are objectively so much better than the others it makes me wonder why the others even exist tbh.

I wish this IP found its way into the hands of a company with experience in this sort of game, I really do. The audio/visual presentation is excellent (for the most part) but the mechanics and the way the designers address the games issues are so ****ing amateur it's not even funny.

Blitzwarrior771
11-11-2018, 05:00 AM
Nah shaman donít need nerf . The most annoying hero for me is aramusha even freaking bot was carrying enemy team thatís how advanced aramusha is . If anyone need nerf is aramusha hate her feint and chaining .

iadvisoryi
11-11-2018, 05:26 AM
Nah shaman donít need nerf . The most annoying hero for me is aramusha even freaking bot was carrying enemy team thatís how advanced aramusha is . If anyone need nerf is aramusha hate her feint and chaining .

Aramusha is getting buffed. He's trash. Go to training and practice because it's definitely just you who thinks that. People like you are the ones who got an already bad character nerfed.

darksavior1977
11-11-2018, 07:47 AM
I think the Shaman is fine, as for the person who said its an issue on console...its pretty much known that light spam is cancer for console players, that would need to be addressed, if it ever is addressed, across the board, NOT on a per hero basis. So "but on console..." isn't a good argument in discussions about specific hero balance. They need to do a patch that makes all light attacks slower on console or something similar and general, not hero specific.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-11-2018, 10:20 AM
Shaman is the golden child class, so it doesn't really matter that you're quite correct about Shaman having a ridiculous amount of strong tools with basically no drawbacks. At the end of the day, they're going to tell you that technically you can parry all the 400ms soft feints so it's no biggie and technically you could be Nostradamus and read that they aren't going to feint the bite and not dodge too early to an attack that's going to be a net gain of 75 for Shaman. Oh does Shaman have one of the quickest dodge heavies in the game allowing them to counteract a ton of mixups with basically 0 effort and if the opponent guesses right and waits to parry the dodge attack they're only get a light punish? But no, technically it's counterable so it doesn't matter if their risk/reward and sheer number of options is completely of proportion.

iadvisoryi
11-11-2018, 11:22 AM
I think the Shaman is fine, as for the person who said its an issue on console...its pretty much known that light spam is cancer for console players, that would need to be addressed, if it ever is addressed, across the board, NOT on a per hero basis. So "but on console..." isn't a good argument in discussions about specific hero balance. They need to do a patch that makes all light attacks slower on console or something similar and general, not hero specific.

It's not lightspam, it's her bleed mix, jump in, and shove cancels. Pk can only bleed cancel to the top, she gets to go wherever tf she wants, her jump in is a heavy and she leaps miles with it. Her jump in is also near instant with little animation to look out for, and even then, what can you do? Guess to block it? And shove cancels on a bleeding out of stamina or not even opponent. She's dumb, been dumb since her release.

retrobacon74
11-11-2018, 12:53 PM
Actually shaman is way better than aramusha. As I explained before, she all great things. However aramusha doesnít even have an opener which makes him weak already. They still nerfed him by
Making his soft feign slower. They arenít even comparable.

Herbstlicht
11-11-2018, 02:08 PM
Simply due to her numbers, shaman for sure is one of the better assassins. I think in duel berserker is above her, in breach she is above berserker. Below those two, you will find all the other assassins. And guess whats one of the reasons zerker is as strong as he is? Yeah, he swiftly deals a lot of damage too. However, though some number tuning might be the right thing to do, i would say it is no priority in comparision to some reworks.

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 08:08 PM
Shaman is the golden child class, so it doesn't really matter that you're quite correct about Shaman having a ridiculous amount of strong tools with basically no drawbacks. At the end of the day, they're going to tell you that technically you can parry all the 400ms soft feints so it's no biggie and technically you could be Nostradamus and read that they aren't going to feint the bite and not dodge too early to an attack that's going to be a net gain of 75 for Shaman. Oh does Shaman have one of the quickest dodge heavies in the game allowing them to counteract a ton of mixups with basically 0 effort and if the opponent guesses right and waits to parry the dodge attack they're only get a light punish? But no, technically it's counterable so it doesn't matter if their risk/reward and sheer number of options is completely of proportion.

The only 400ms soft feint she has is her top light bleed. her side soft feint bleeds are 500ms. So if you're a standard guard hero just rest your guard up top.
Her soft feint on her dodge attacks are bad because each time you soft feint you're giving the opponent roughly a 400-500ms window to hit you during that transition. Because during that transition you can't defend yourself. Her bite/pounce are only realistically threats if the person playing shaman knows how to flicker the indicator. Which I really doubt anyone here actually runs into.
Her dodge heavy is strong yes. But is perfectly baitable if you notice they go for it often. it's 500ms. So it shouldn't be hard to react punish once you've established your opponents pattern.
Also there are plenty of heros who have strong punishes on a heavy parry. Shinobi gets 24 damage, berzerker gets 24-25? with his zone, shaman gets 25 with the first two hits of her zone, centurion gets 25 with his heavy, aramusha gets 25 with his top heavy, shaolin gets 24 with triple light, Tiandi gets 30 with his unlock double light, JJ gets 24 with his zone, etc.

Dodging her bite nets everyone at least a GB. Same with dodging her normal pounce or her jumping heavy attacks. Her zone gives a light parry punish on the last two hits. all her soft feint attacks give a light parry punish. And dodging out of her soft feint gb/unblockable side heavy gives everyone a GB. The point is that all of her mix ups have hard punishes.

but because people have to read her and not react "ZOMG SHE'S TOO OPPPPPPP!!!?!" Is the general vibe people give off about her. That's not Shaman's problem. That's their problem.

UbiInsulin
11-11-2018, 08:33 PM
My personal opinion is that shaman should get a damage nerf or something of the kind, without making her attacks do damage comparable to a pea shooter.


also please leave your ideas in the thread because i want to know what the rest of the community thinks.
please be kind tho. thank you for reading.

Since we're kind of getting side-tracked with people bringing up other heroes they think are OP, can we focus in on what retrobacon wants to change about Shaman? What would the consequences be if we did make this change?

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 08:42 PM
Since we're kind of getting side-tracked with people bringing up other heroes they think are OP, can we focus in on what retrobacon wants to change about Shaman? What would the consequences be if we did make this change?

It depends. In the competitive side her damage (outside her bite) is reviewed as average to low (for her double lights) unless she has bleed procced. because the health swing between the two is what they start to look at in that instance. If we nerfed her raw damage across the board (excluding bite) then she'd become overly reliant on using tools that are not safe and likely get her punished a lot. Things like wild cats rage.

If we decide to either tone back/remove her healing ability (outside of bite) then she might not feel as oppressive. But i'd argue her basic double combo light should get a damage bump then. Just to put it slightly above other double lights (barring shinobi's since he's over tuned.) This would be to compensate. Because all other heros that double light can follow up with something decent to make up for the less damage. Orochi can follow up with more pressure due to being able to dodge cancel finisher recoveries, warden can threaten with his bash games after double light, shinobi can bait with his back flip. etc. Shaman can only threaten with her unblockable soft feint mix up. Which due to the hit stun changes awhile back is easily dodgable and opens her to a big punish if dodged.

Then again if we buff her double lights people might end up using that more than the rest of her kit. So i'm not really sure.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-11-2018, 10:54 PM
The only 400ms soft feint she has is her top light bleed. her side soft feint bleeds are 500ms. So if you're a standard guard hero just rest your guard up top.

That's only half the story though. There's a heavy coming so I have to put my guard up top, manage to somehow react to the lack of a soft feint happening, and then put my guard back to block the heavy. The procedure and skill needed just to deal with the potential options from a singular neutral heavy compared to other classes is blatantly obvious.


Her dodge heavy is strong yes. But is perfectly baitable if you notice they go for it often. it's 500ms. So it shouldn't be hard to react punish once you've established your opponents pattern.
Also there are plenty of heros who have strong punishes on a heavy parry. Shinobi gets 24 damage, berzerker gets 24-25? with his zone, shaman gets 25 with the first two hits of her zone, centurion gets 25 with his heavy, aramusha gets 25 with his top heavy, shaolin gets 24 with triple light, Tiandi gets 30 with his unlock double light, JJ gets 24 with his zone, etc.

So because a few classes (including Shaman themselves...) get an appropriate punish, the dodge heavies are fine? Some of these examples are just light attacks that are arguably dealing more damage than they really should to begin with. Like Shinibo for instance getting 24 damage just from landing one 500ms light attack into a guaranteed double light? I think most people would agree that's overtuned.

Shaman's dodge heavies should count as a light parry, period. There's dodge attacks that are far easier to parry that are giving that.


Dodging her bite nets everyone at least a GB. Same with dodging her normal pounce or her jumping heavy attacks. Her zone gives a light parry punish on the last two hits. all her soft feint attacks give a light parry punish. And dodging out of her soft feint gb/unblockable side heavy gives everyone a GB. The point is that all of her mix ups have hard punishes.

Right, so you have to make all these reads just to survive and parry 400ms attacks to punish. Meanwhile the Shaman just does a dodge heavy to get out of all of your mixups and now you have to do yet another read to hard cancel your mixup and then parry a 500ms attack to get a minimal reward unless you're one of the lucky classes you mentioned above. You do all the work and Shaman gets all the wins.


but because people have to read her and not react "ZOMG SHE'S TOO OPPPPPPP!!!?!" Is the general vibe people give off about her. That's not Shaman's problem. That's their problem.

I can't think of a response that could have better demonstrated my assertion that Shaman is the golden child class than the above quote. Nothing is ever the fault of this class's absurd design where it gets all of these strengths with no weaknesses, it's always everyone else's fault and every other class's fault for not being up to par with Shaman's "innovative" kit.

Oh Shaman can run rough shot over all of your mixups with dodge heavies? Clearly it's your class at fault for not doing enough damage on a heavy parry. Clearly we need to buff all light attacks to do 24 damage instead of making the dodge attacks of Shaman that are as quick as the standard light attack count as a light parries.

Obliged_HL
11-11-2018, 11:07 PM
Shaman is actually terrible. Most of what she does is easily avoided or reactable. Furthermore her only good thing going for her is predator's mercy and that can be dodge-rolled by reaction. Her bleed softfeint can be negated by just blocking and her unblockable softfeint can be beat every time by a 500ms light.

Obliged_HL
11-11-2018, 11:12 PM
Since we're kind of getting side-tracked with people bringing up other heroes they think are OP, can we focus in on what retrobacon wants to change about Shaman? What would the consequences be if we did make this change?

Don't listen to low level players feedback, please, like, don't listen to it at all. They'll get better and change their opinions. I used to think Shaman was OP. Shaman is severely underpowered. The new players just want the "pain" of dying to a mix up to stop. They don't care about the long term consequences it will do to the hero, and how that hero will be useless past mid-level play. Just look at the Warden feedback. "Make him not able to feint the bash". That's nonsense, they just want a guaranteed escape every time to avoid the "pain". Same with the low level players who defended dodge roll. "How else would we escape kick-grab? How would we escape warden 50/50?". Non sense from people who think they're experts of For Honor balance while they get hit by 600ms lights.

Her bash can be negated by dodging into it, which causes her lights not to reach. Her bleed-softfeint applies no pressure and be blocked easily or dodged at the same time the heavy is dodged. The unblockable can reacted to by good players and lighted out of by 500ms lights. Predator's Mercy can be dodge-rolled by reaction. She needs small tweaks but no major changes or reworks. Also if you buff her unblockable soft feint, make it do less damage so it's less oppressive. But that's just me, a masters level player with 1200+ hours. Ask the best of the best players for what needs fixing as well. I'm sure if you ask some high level shaman mains they'll dump you a massive list of grieviances and bugs/tech that makes their class useless, just like my post about Highlander: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1955018-(BALANCE)-Tech-That-Cripples-Highlander-s-Offensive-Capability-and-more?p=13776381#post13776381

also found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9vz9r8/tech_that_cripples_highlanders_offensive/?

Blitzwarrior771
11-11-2018, 11:26 PM
Yeah why would u nerf shaman ? Over orochi and aramusha thatís stupid .

Obliged_HL
11-11-2018, 11:30 PM
Yeah why would u nerf shaman ? Over orochi and aramusha that’s stupid .

?????????????????????
Both classes are pretty bad what are you talking about lmfao

Blitzwarrior771
11-11-2018, 11:34 PM
Really?? Orochi is most used hero in duels itís super op statistics donít lie so ****ofg

Obliged_HL
11-11-2018, 11:36 PM
Just block him. Now he can't do anything. Same with Aramusha, but you can also backdodge any deadly feint mix up an aramusha does because both his heavies and gb do not reach when he starts spamming. Aramusha is literally the worst character in the game, both console and PC.

Blitzwarrior771
11-11-2018, 11:48 PM
Yeah but yet we need to reach your levels you got more experience then most of us here I wish I can just block him . I try to block aramusha but he suddenly stops feint and change direction and then chaining starts with light attacks .

Obliged_HL
11-11-2018, 11:52 PM
If he feints move your guard to the other direction. I don't understand. Is it just too fast? If that's the case you'll be able to block it when you play more.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-11-2018, 11:54 PM
Her bash can be negated by dodging into it, which causes her lights not to reach.

Well that's a first, advising people to dodge into an attack when they could just dodge to the side and punish if they had the time to dodge. lol


Her bleed-softfeint applies no pressure and be blocked easily or dodged at the same time the heavy is dodged.

Not a solution because Shaman can soft feint into a guard break. Did you forget that?


The unblockable can reacted to by good players and lighted out of by 500ms lights.

This is true but not everyone has 500ms lights and certainly not in every direction, so this simply isn't always an option. Congrats though this is the only good point you had.


Predator's Mercy can be dodge-rolled by reaction.

So bad.... Shaman is probably one of the most equipped to deal with a roll like that with her forward dodge heavies and their bugged indicators.


She needs small tweaks but no major changes or reworks. Also if you buff her unblockable soft feint, make it do less damage so it's less oppressive. But that's just me, a masters level player with 1200+ hours. Ask the best of the best players for what needs fixing as well. I'm sure if you ask some high level shaman mains they'll dump you a massive list of grieviances and bugs/tech that makes their class useless, just like my post about Highlander: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1955018-(BALANCE)-Tech-That-Cripples-Highlander-s-Offensive-Capability-and-more?p=13776381#post13776381

also found here: https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9vz9r8/tech_that_cripples_highlanders_offensive/?

Shamelessly promoting their own thread that is completely irrelevant to this one.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-12-2018, 12:09 AM
This is true but not everyone has 500ms lights and certainly not in every direction, so this simply isn't always an option. Congrats though this is the only good point you had.

Actually I need to amend to this. Since you can dodge cancel the unblockable (yes Shamans really do have just about everything), a 500ms light trying to interrupt the unblockable heavy could be dodged out of immediately putting you in a situation where you need to continue your combo (and potentially get parried) or let your whiff recovery get guard broken. So using a 500ms light immediately on reaction to interrupt this is not a complete solution.

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 12:32 AM
i Agree with atlas I canít expect to be good at this game unless I spend hours and hours just in training . Perhaps if I become better at blocking and parry shaman would be piece of cake . All assassins are paper thin considering the Armor . Look at monk he is butt naked with a stick 😂😂 he is very fast but once u catch him with few heavies he is toasted . Back to training room 👍

Obliged_HL
11-12-2018, 12:34 AM
Well that's a first, advising people to dodge into an attack when they could just dodge to the side and punish if they had the time to dodge. lol

Bad idea because shaman can feint the bash into a guardbreak. If you dodge into it at the right time the bash hits but the guardbreak doesn't, and when the bash hits the lights won't even reach.




Not a solution because Shaman can soft feint into a guard break. Did you forget that?
Did you forget you can just block it?




This is true but not everyone has 500ms lights and certainly not in every direction, so this simply isn't always an option. Congrats though this is the only good point you had.

Most classes have 500ms lights. If you're playing a useless garbage class with only 600ms lights then you prob won't win against most things anyway.


So bad.... Shaman is probably one of the most equipped to deal with a roll like that with her forward dodge heavies and their bugged indicators..

Her flying heavies don't even track rolls if done correctly, they're only good in 4v4 or for max punishes. The guardbreak is where it's at though.





Shamelessly promoting their own thread that is completely irrelevant to this one.[/QUOTE]
I need to get ubisoft to read my thread. Sorry if that bothers you.

I also need you to understand that Shaman is B tier on the competitive tierlist, you know, the tierlist made by way better players than you. And the reason why she's B tier is because of many of the reasons I stated. However I do think you are right slightly, but for the wrong reasons. Her viability might be better now that unlock roll was nerfed. Before you couldn't guardbreak an unlock roll, now you can. So, to punish a dodge-roll on bite she could guardbreak and catch the roll, but only in close range. Either way, if you dodge the bite she gets absolutely annihilated, just like you if you get caught by it. I think it's fine little gimmick honestly (just not in 4v4, it's OP in 4v4).

Either way she's far from being overpowered. Her bash leaves her very open and only gives her 15 damage. Her bleed softfeint can be blocked most of the time since the unreactable portion always comes from the top. Her damage is weak save for her bite. At most she's decent. There are other classes that are much more a problem, such as unlock warlord. Extremely annoying, extremely effective, very hard to punish for much of the cast. Also extremely broken, like a reincarnation of season 1 shugoki.

Obliged_HL
11-12-2018, 12:43 AM
Actually I need to amend to this. Since you can dodge cancel the unblockable (yes Shamans really do have just about everything), a 500ms light trying to interrupt the unblockable heavy could be dodged out of immediately putting you in a situation where you need to continue your combo (and potentially get parried) or let your whiff recovery get guard broken. So using a 500ms light immediately on reaction to interrupt this is not a complete solution.

Sure, but it's another variable the shaman has to think about that counters 2 out of the 3 options she has from unblockable soft feint guardbreak. Furthermore, 400ms attacks can completely shut it down. Even then, let's just say it is a perfectly effective unblockable. Is that even a bad thing at all? I think if that's the case then we should be celebrating that she can actually attack.

The only thing people should be complaining about Shaman is how she gets cheesed teched or her overperformance in 4v4. That's it. We need more overpowered characters rather than underpowered characters right now, because the vast majority of the cast is absolutely useless right now, so every "overpowered" character is just effective while the rest are just bad. Shaman can be punished with every option that she does if you read or react correctly, and they aren't too hard to punish either. This post is a big waste of time.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-12-2018, 02:32 AM
Bad idea because shaman can feint the bash into a guardbreak. If you dodge into it at the right time the bash hits but the guardbreak doesn't, and when the bash hits the lights won't even reach.

Well that's highly interesting, but even if there is a timing that allows you to do that (sounds like it would be extremely specific), how do you get a punish from that?


Did you forget you can just block it?

As for "just block" it. You have to pretty much make a read between blocking top or the side the heavy is on because the top feint is 400ms and the feint window is 400ms into the only 800ms heavy. "Just block" between two 400ms options hitting in different directions is heavily underrating this mixup.


Most classes have 500ms lights. If you're playing a useless garbage class with only 600ms lights then you prob won't win against most things anyway.

Fair enough.


I need to get ubisoft to read my thread. Sorry if that bothers you.

I think we should keep threads on topic.


Either way she's far from being overpowered. Her bash leaves her very open and only gives her 15 damage.

It's actually 20. Furthermore it can wallsplat for even more damage.


Her bleed softfeint can be blocked most of the time since the unreactable portion always comes from the top. Her damage is weak save for her bite.

Weak damage? Where? Compared to who?
Her dodge attacks are 20 damage. Many dodge attacks that give better punishes and are much slower do less damage than that.
Her unblockable left heavy finisher is 40 damage which is 100% inline with Warden's top unblockable heavy, Kensei's unblockable, Conqueror's charged unblockable. Except of course Shaman has more options out of it.
20 damage from the double lights.
Her punish on an OOS throw is superb as well.
Really the only damage she has that is low is the opener heavy at 27 which is still better than a lot of classes.


At most she's decent. There are other classes that are much more a problem, such as unlock warlord. Extremely annoying, extremely effective, very hard to punish for much of the cast. Also extremely broken, like a reincarnation of season 1 shugoki.

I hardly see how Warlord having one strong tool left takes away from anything that has been said here. At least Warlord still has real weaknesses implemented into his kit unlike Shaman.


Sure, but it's another variable the shaman has to think about that counters 2 out of the 3 options she has from unblockable soft feint guardbreak. Furthermore, 400ms attacks can completely shut it down. Even then, let's just say it is a perfectly effective unblockable. Is that even a bad thing at all? I think if that's the case then we should be celebrating that she can actually attack.

I think the bad thing is how Shaman has this very effective unblockable yet can get out of other people's mixups so easily with her dodge heavy and even when the opponent reads that they get minimal damage from parrying it.

SixAxe505
11-12-2018, 02:43 AM
Way to be a hero archduke. I mean seriously, all these keyboard warriors who claim that these moves have definitive counters, but in order to accomplish them reliably and all the time you would have to have "Bot" like reflexes and be psychic. The reason she is so effective is because of the properties the moves entail and the options she has from each. But as I stated in an earlier post I don't have a real problem with all that stuff. What I believe needs to go is the bite on throw. That is way to OP. Either slow the bite, making it only effective on wallsplat or nerf the damage and benefits it returns to shaman.

Obliged_HL
11-12-2018, 03:05 AM
Well that's highly interesting, but even if there is a timing that allows you to do that (sounds like it would be extremely specific), how do you get a punish from that?

You don't, it's like dodge-roll where you get nothing but the opponent gets nothing either. Either way it shuts down offense. However, I have to test this tech again because it's been a while since it's been mentioned and it may have been phased through for forgotten.




As for "just block" it. You have to pretty much make a read between blocking top or the side the heavy is on because the top feint is 400ms and the feint window is 400ms into the only 800ms heavy. "Just block" between two 400ms options hitting in different directions is heavily underrating this mixup.

Blocking isn't hard to do, especially if it's coming from 1 direction only at a high speed while the other two directions are "very slow."



It's actually 20. Furthermore it can wallsplat for even more damage.
Beep, wrong. It's 15 damage. Just tested it. Sure it can wallsplat. But that isn't always the case. I get it though it's better to have it than not to.


Weak damage? Where? Compared to who?

Her dodge attacks are 20 damage. Many dodge attacks that give better punishes and are much slower do less damage than that.
Her unblockable left heavy finisher is 40 damage which is 100% inline with Warden's top unblockable heavy, Kensei's unblockable, Conqueror's charged unblockable. Except of course Shaman has more options out of it.
20 damage from the double lights.
Her punish on an OOS throw is superb as well.
Really the only damage she has that is low is the opener heavy at 27 which is still better than a lot of classes.

Her damage is low because her opener heavy is weak, her lights are standard. Her OOS is admittedly pretty great but so many classes have insane OOS punishes too. Her damage can be compared to pretty much any assassin except PK, however I'll give you this one because in the end the heavy openers don't matter; if she gets a gb a smart shaman will initiate the bleed and begin the bite mix ups. Still not overpowered though. Bleed is very punishable.




I hardly see how Warlord having one strong tool left takes away from anything that has been said here. At least Warlord still has real weaknesses implemented into his kit unlike Shaman.

1 Strong tool that interrupts everything, becomes in incredibly hard to punish and dangerous 50/50 that also might I add looks absolutely ridiculous and broken. His zone combined with that can also be used to shut down so many things, if you only knew. That's why he's S tier in duels. There are far more powerful characters than Shaman and they aren't even overpowered, like Warden or Beserker for example.



I think the bad thing is how Shaman has this very effective unblockable yet can get out of other people's mixups so easily with her dodge heavy and even when the opponent reads that they get minimal damage from parrying it.

Not really "minimal damage" though. Sure it's a heavy parry but most classes can output more than what would've been recieved. Most classes at least get 20 damage from parrying her dodge attack, and many can just deflect it for massive damage. Warden can zone (20dmg) or double light (18). PK can deflect (idk a lot of damage). Cent can just do a heavy (25dmg), Conq can get a superior block dodge-gb or superior block heavy parry (25), LB can wall impale or light riposte(50 or 20), Glad can zone (20), Beserker can zone (24), Warlord can zone (20dmg), Shaman can deflect, Kensei can parry toplight (20) or zone (20) or dodge attack deflect. Orochi can zone, Shinobi can do nuclear damage lights after parry, Nobu can parry into insane bleed or just hidden stance gb, Aramusha parry for top heavy, Highlander can crushing counter for a whopping 30, JJ can do like 33, Shaolin 24, etc etc, Only like a handful of classes (raider, shugoki, valk) get ****ed. Her dodge attack is supposed to be good but it is super fast so it can't be option selected either.

It's not that bad, you're really just overexaggerating. She's B tier after all. Shaman is no where near as effective as you put it, at best she's decent and she is very punishable. You could say her mix ups give either equal value to defender or attacker or she is at a disadvantage for risk/reward in her offense. Her offense is very risky and until she has a bleed, is only even.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-12-2018, 05:16 AM
Way to be a hero archduke. I mean seriously, all these keyboard warriors who claim that these moves have definitive counters, but in order to accomplish them reliably and all the time you would have to have "Bot" like reflexes and be psychic. The reason she is so effective is because of the properties the moves entail and the options she has from each. But as I stated in an earlier post I don't have a real problem with all that stuff. What I believe needs to go is the bite on throw. That is way to OP. Either slow the bite, making it only effective on wallsplat or nerf the damage and benefits it returns to shaman.

This is the issue with everyone that defends Shaman. They just have a completely binary view, they only judge the character based on what technically is possible without accounting for how much more difficult or unlikely it is to actually happen. There's no gradient. The thing is they only have that view for Shaman because it's the golden child class. They got crazy amounts of options, multiple very strong tools, and they can wipe out large amounts of health in the blink of an eye.


You don't, it's like dodge-roll where you get nothing but the opponent gets nothing either. Either way it shuts down offense. However, I have to test this tech again because it's been a while since it's been mentioned and it may have been phased through for forgotten.

Well I close my case on this one then.


Blocking isn't hard to do, especially if it's coming from 1 direction only at a high speed while the other two directions are "very slow."

I'm not talking about the side directions of the soft feint. I'm talking about the top soft feint and letting the heavy land normally.


Beep, wrong. It's 15 damage. Just tested it. Sure it can wallsplat. But that isn't always the case. I get it though it's better to have it than not to.



Her damage is low because her opener heavy is weak, her lights are standard. Her OOS is admittedly pretty great but so many classes have insane OOS punishes too. Her damage can be compared to pretty much any assassin except PK, however I'll give you this one because in the end the heavy openers don't matter; if she gets a gb a smart shaman will initiate the bleed and begin the bite mix ups. Still not overpowered though. Bleed is very punishable.

Regardless of what it is, I'll take your value for now, with context of other follow up lights after a bash, Shaman is still doing better than Conqueror or Warlord and has infinitely better followups as she can immediately go into her left heavy finisher unblockable. So yeah I really wouldn't say she's doing shabby on damage at all when she's usually on par or better than average in most categories.

And yes you're right that there's other classes that have great OOS punishes, but they don't have that amazing OOS punish + all the crap Shaman gets for free.


Not really "minimal damage" though. Sure it's a heavy parry but most classes can output more than what would've been recieved. Most classes at least get 20 damage from parrying her dodge attack, and many can just deflect it for massive damage. Warden can zone (20dmg) or double light (18). PK can deflect (idk a lot of damage). Cent can just do a heavy (25dmg), Conq can get a superior block dodge-gb or superior block heavy parry (25), LB can wall impale or light riposte(50 or 20), Glad can zone (20), Beserker can zone (24), Warlord can zone (20dmg), Shaman can deflect, Kensei can parry toplight (20) or zone (20) or dodge attack deflect. Orochi can zone, Shinobi can do nuclear damage lights after parry, Nobu can parry into insane bleed or just hidden stance gb, Aramusha parry for top heavy, Highlander can crushing counter for a whopping 30, JJ can do like 33, Shaolin 24, etc etc, Only like a handful of classes (raider, shugoki, valk) get ****ed. Her dodge attack is supposed to be good but it is super fast so it can't be option selected either.

Really? We're going to talk about getting side deflects and Conqueror's 2 frame superior block on heavy against a 500ms side dodge attack and pretend the non-Shaman isn't putting in vastly more work than the Shaman? We're going to continue to ignore than side dodge attacks like Berserker's and Orochi's are a piece of cake to parry yet give you a full heavy punish?

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 05:27 AM
@ArchDukeInstinct

"That's only half the story though. There's a heavy coming so I have to put my guard up top, manage to somehow react to the lack of a soft feint happening, and then put my guard back to block the heavy. The procedure and skill needed just to deal with the potential options from a singular neutral heavy compared to other classes is blatantly obvious."

It's not like her heavy from neutral is even remotely fast and blocking is extremely forgiving compared to parrying where you're not allowed to parry the last 100ms of an attack. So if you're struggling to actually react block her raw heavy from neutral idk what to say tbh.

"So because a few classes (including Shaman themselves...) get an appropriate punish, the dodge heavies are fine? Some of these examples are just light attacks that are arguably dealing more damage than they really should to begin with. Like Shinibo for instance getting 24 damage just from landing one 500ms light attack into a guaranteed double light? I think most people would agree that's overtuned.
Shaman's dodge heavies should count as a light parry, period. There's dodge attacks that are far easier to parry that are giving that."

I'm more than confident in saying that at least half the roster if not more gets comparable damage for a heavy parry. By that logic so should your conq's zone. Since the first hit is also 500ms

"Right, so you have to make all these reads just to survive and parry 400ms attacks to punish. Meanwhile the Shaman just does a dodge heavy to get out of all of your mixups and now you have to do yet another read to hard cancel your mixup and then parry a 500ms attack to get a minimal reward unless you're one of the lucky classes you mentioned above. You do all the work and Shaman gets all the wins."

If her general response is to dodge heavy any mix up you do on reaction to the start of your mix up that is very easily baitable and parryable. Reading is not as difficult as people make it sound.
It really just comes off as people not liking the fact that they can't react. Which if that's your preference fine. But i'd seriously question why you'd bother to play a fighting game at all then.

"I can't think of a response that could have better demonstrated my assertion that Shaman is the golden child class than the above quote. Nothing is ever the fault of this class's absurd design where it gets all of these strengths with no weaknesses, it's always everyone else's fault and every other class's fault for not being up to par with Shaman's "innovative" kit."

You blatently ignore any of the weaknesses I point out in her kit just solely based on the fact that you have to make reads. If you want to throw hands about absurd design lets talk about your favorite the conq and how safe he is.

Conq's heavies even in combo have 100ms GB vulnerability. So feint into Gb or reading a heavy being thrown and attempting to GB does not work against him. He can HEAVILY delay his soft feint from a heavy into full block. All of his heavies have the superior property. Meaning he can miss time a parry attempt and still win that attack clash. He can HEAVILY delay his bash after an attack lands and semi heavily delay the bash feint on heavies. His charged heavy acts as an option select just by holding the trigger down in response to any indicator.

Meaning he'll either parry it on the right timing, or let the heavy fly and get his superior block property going for him. And if it's a super slow attack and he miss timed his heavy release he can just soft feint into full block. And if the opponent was baiting anything from conq he can just hard/soft feint his charged heavy. His full block is virtually safe as well because he can dodge out of them. Either into a bash that you realistically can't punish (if you were mid GB as an example) or if you tried to throw an attack after a feint he just superior block dodges into it netting him free damage.

Lets not forget that your zone is 500ms and feintable after the first flail. It also has full block on it. Meaning unless you got an armored unblockable the only way you're punishing that is with a parry. Oh and I don't even need to get into his variable forward bash.

Shaman might have a heap of semi effective to effective offensive options. But at least she's far from safe. Conq has one really decent offensive option topped on to several option selects/safe mechanics that make dealing with him an absolute nightmare unless you have easy access to unblockable attacks/bashes. Competitively speaking being safe is more valuable than anything else. Which is why conq is S tier in duels and shaman isn't even A tier.
Her decent enough offense and decent enough OOS pressure isn't enough to offset how unsafe she is.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 05:37 AM
Way to be a hero archduke. I mean seriously, all these keyboard warriors who claim that these moves have definitive counters, but in order to accomplish them reliably and all the time you would have to have "Bot" like reflexes and be psychic. The reason she is so effective is because of the properties the moves entail and the options she has from each. But as I stated in an earlier post I don't have a real problem with all that stuff. What I believe needs to go is the bite on throw. That is way to OP. Either slow the bite, making it only effective on wallsplat or nerf the damage and benefits it returns to shaman.

I'm a console player that's not even close to being considered a high tier player and I can deal with Shaman no problem. If I can do it it's sure as heck possible for a ton of other people.
The problem is most people would rather give up and blame something else rather than accept fault and try to get better.

SixAxe505
11-12-2018, 05:53 AM
You are out of your mind raime. I have no problem with shaman or her kit except bite being guaranteed on gb. I think that is op. Fighting her mix-ups and what not is all fine by me.

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 06:49 AM
I donít know whatís worst light spam or turtling

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 07:39 AM
You are out of your mind raime. I have no problem with shaman or her kit except bite being guaranteed on gb. I think that is op. Fighting her mix-ups and what not is all fine by me.

I think her bite is fine. Outside the fact that you can't pop revenge to save yourself when she's on you. And the fact that allies can proc bleed to enable her bite. If both of those aspects were changed I think Bite would be a lot more fair.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-12-2018, 08:07 AM
It's not like her heavy from neutral is even remotely fast and blocking is extremely forgiving compared to parrying where you're not allowed to parry the last 100ms of an attack. So if you're struggling to actually react block her raw heavy from neutral idk what to say tbh.

The heavy itself doesn't need to be fast when the soft feint window is 400ms into the heavy, the top soft feint is 400ms, and heavy's overall speed is 800ms. So I still have to make a read between two 400ms options. Instead of accepting that fact and accepting it's a lot more complicated than "just block top", you disingenuously pretend as if I'm struggling to block an 800ms attack. Tsk tsk Raime.


I'm more than confident in saying that at least half the roster if not more gets comparable damage for a heavy parry. By that logic so should your conq's zone. Since the first hit is also 500ms

Well it's funny you bring up the Conqueror zone because it's actually 600ms, always comes from the same side, and will only do 10 damage and people complain about it all time. Then when I bring up something that is the same functionally but way better for Shaman there's suddenly a giant hold up on whether it is problem. It's almost like Shaman is the golden child class or something.

And for the record I'm not even opposed to Conqueror's zone being a light parry.


If her general response is to dodge heavy any mix up you do on reaction to the start of your mix up that is very easily baitable and parryable. Reading is not as difficult as people make it sound.
It really just comes off as people not liking the fact that they can't react. Which if that's your preference fine. But i'd seriously question why you'd bother to play a fighting game at all then.

Exactly. Having to make reads is so great, so lets make Shaman have to make reads of their own by changing their dodge heavies to count as light parries so it's not a get out of jail free card anymore.


You blatently ignore any of the weaknesses I point out in her kit just solely based on the fact that you have to make reads. If you want to throw hands about absurd design lets talk about your favorite the conq and how safe he is.

Because the 400ms soft feints having vulnerability to being parried isn't a genuine weakness, it's a universal mechanic that every class in the game has to face. I know it's shocking that the golden child class should have to adhere to the existing game mechanics like everyone else.


Conq's heavies even in combo have 100ms GB vulnerability. So feint into Gb or reading a heavy being thrown and attempting to GB does not work against him.

First off Aramusha has the same thing for his heavies, I thought I would add that in for reference before you try to make it sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread. Secondly it's not actually true that a soft feint into gb won't work but yes Conqueror can certainly beat out many mixups that hard feint into a GB. I notice it most often against Berseker top heavy unblockable. Lets also take into account Conqueror can't cancel into a GB himself because full block stance's enter/exit times will delay all follow up options by roughly 400ms. As you can see, Conqueror actually pays for his strengths with inherent weaknesses unlike Shaman who gets objectively better versions of other classes's stuff for free.


He can HEAVILY delay his soft feint from a heavy into full block.

What exactly does "soft feinting" into a state that you cannot counter gb from have to do with safety? This is basically the opposite of safety because if you cancel into full block too often opponents will then start making reads and guard break you upon seeing a heavy. If you're going to make a big song and dance about how unsafe Shaman is because people can make reads, don't then try to tell us this is not a counter example to Conqueror being safe.


All of his heavies have the superior property. Meaning he can miss time a parry attempt and still win that attack clash.

The superior block only lasts 2 frames on console. You're really going to nickel and dime us?


He can HEAVILY delay his bash after an attack lands

Raime, shield bash mixup is terrible. It's a 700ms move. Why would you even consider bringing this up as a strong point for Conqueror? You can easily side dodge and GB it on reaction because it's 200ms longer than a regular shield bash. If you really had to bring this up, what you should have said is how you can branch into an attack much earlier with a shield bash mixup compared to a regular shield bash, but I guess that would have required having more than superficial knowledge of the class.


and semi heavily delay the bash feint on heavies.

I guess you mean shield uppercut but who knows. Shield uppercut is extremely easy to dodge and GB. How is that safe?


His charged heavy acts as an option select just by holding the trigger down in response to any indicator. Meaning he'll either parry it on the right timing, or let the heavy fly and get his superior block property going for him.

Finally a decent point from Raime here. I thought he was just going to gish gallop on and on about being able to delay cancels into moves that aren't safe is somehow bolstering Conqueror's safety when there are far better arguments.

While this is an alternative to the zone attack, you are vulnerable to GBs with it which is kinda one of the main points to an option select. So yeah, mixing up between these two is pretty good but I would always err on using the zone attack because the damage based punish for it is way lower in comparison.


And if it's a super slow attack and he miss timed his heavy release he can just soft feint into full block.

Which attack is so slow that you can mess up the superior block timing and get into full block stance (400ms) in time? I believe parrying is a 200ms window within the last 300ms of an attack.


And if the opponent was baiting anything from conq he can just hard/soft feint his charged heavy.

Every class in the game can hard feint their heavy, dude.


His full block is virtually safe as well because he can dodge out of them. Either into a bash that you realistically can't punish (if you were mid GB as an example) or if you tried to throw an attack after a feint he just superior block dodges into it netting him free damage.

Either I'm misreading something or Raime is just falling apart completely. You're saying full block is virtually safe because you can dodge out of it and your example in parenthesis is the opponent being mid GB....... Raime please, dude. What are you even doing? Just stick to the zone attack, and charging heavy tech, don't try to tell us that full block stance is safe.

Then you say that the Conqueror can dodge out of the full block to superior block to catch an attack to shield bash. Dude just stay in full block and you'll get double the damage if the opponent throws an attack.


Lets not forget that your zone is 500ms and feintable after the first flail. It also has full block on it. Meaning unless you got an armored unblockable the only way you're punishing that is with a parry. Oh and I don't even need to get into his variable forward bash.

Poor Raime. He still doesn't know the zone is 600ms yet he is trying to school me on a class that I'm in the top 100 for on the PS4. Must have huffed too many competitive reddit fumes today while trying to get their approved response for this thread.

You went on some screed regarding how safe Conqueror is, something nobody disagreed with, and then failed badly by bringing up a bunch of points that were actually counter productive or just saying things that were just plain ridiculous. I really don't understand.

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 08:35 AM
**** assassins I will quit every time they in my game **** orochi

SnizzyWizzy
11-12-2018, 12:52 PM
she's more a one trick pony. all her mixups come from the unblock able so she's really not that hard to deal with. i think she needs more options to be honest. if you get bit its almost your fault in my opinion. i stopped playing her because she only has good mixups off her unblock and most good players can deal with it too easily.

Alustar.
11-12-2018, 01:10 PM
This is the issue with everyone that defends Shaman. They just have a completely binary view, they only judge the character based on what technically is possible without accounting for how much more difficult or unlikely it is to actually happen. There's no gradient. The thing is they only have that view for Shaman because it's the golden child class. They got crazy amounts of options, multiple very strong tools, and they can wipe out large amounts of health in the blink of an eye.



Well I close my case on this one then.



I'm not talking about the side directions of the soft feint. I'm talking about the top soft feint and letting the heavy land normally.



Regardless of what it is, I'll take your value for now, with context of other follow up lights after a bash, Shaman is still doing better than Conqueror or Warlord and has infinitely better followups as she can immediately go into her left heavy finisher unblockable. So yeah I really wouldn't say she's doing shabby on damage at all when she's usually on par or better than average in most categories.

And yes you're right that there's other classes that have great OOS punishes, but they don't have that amazing OOS punish + all the crap Shaman gets for free.



Really? We're going to talk about getting side deflects and Conqueror's 2 frame superior block on heavy against a 500ms side dodge attack and pretend the non-Shaman isn't putting in vastly more work than the Shaman? We're going to continue to ignore than side dodge attacks like Berserker's and Orochi's are a piece of cake to parry yet give you a full heavy punish?

This is hilarious coming from the same tool who defends his conqueror with all the fervor of a thousand angry chimps upset because someone wants to take away their toys. It's sad really what a bubble you live in. I wish I could see life from your perspective, but I don't honestly think I could get my head that far up my own ***.

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 07:25 PM
At low skill players everyone is using heavy heroís game is more menagable . Higher levels everyone is using assassins fast heroís and spam light attacks . Both meta are over flawed defensive and offensive . If they buff or nerf 1 ****ing character it donít make difference .

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 08:37 PM
Only 2% of players enjoy this game , veterans with sharp skills to dodge and parry everything . Heavy attacks would never penetrate anything how slow they are and how punishable parry is . Once again why the **** you call it unblockable when they can block it parry it . It makes no sense .

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 08:39 PM
@ArchDukeInstinct

"The heavy itself doesn't need to be fast when the soft feint window is 400ms into the heavy, the top soft feint is 400ms, and heavy's overall speed is 800ms. So I still have to make a read between two 400ms options. Instead of accepting that fact and accepting it's a lot more complicated than "just block top", you disingenuously pretend as if I'm struggling to block an 800ms attack. Tsk tsk Raime."

400ms is the same speed for all soft feints and hard feints in the game. Resting your guard up top and waiting to see if they commit to the heavy is a lot safer/easier to defend than waiting on the side of the heavy and trying to block the attack after. You're misleading here by calling her top heavy essentially another 400ms option but you bury the lead by openly stating the attack is 800ms total. Regardless. Blocking up top means she can't soft feint into top or she'll be blocked/parried. You're not having to react to a 400ms option if you always rest your guard up top. you're reacting to either a 500ms attack (soft feint to either side) or an 800ms heavy.

"Well it's funny you bring up the Conqueror zone because it's actually 600ms, always comes from the same side, and will only do 10 damage and people complain about it all time. Then when I bring up something that is the same functionally but way better for Shaman there's suddenly a giant hold up on whether it is problem. It's almost like Shaman is the golden child class or something.
And for the record I'm not even opposed to Conqueror's zone being a light parry."

That's my bad. I don't know why I always thought it was a 500ms attack. Conq's zone is complained about because of how safe it is due to the full block property which makes it a strong option select tool. Shaman's side dash heavy isn't good for option selecting side side deflects are borked in the game. It is a good attack. But you make it off to be amazing when functionally it's not. The extra damage due to it being a heavy is the best part. And like I said while it's a decent answer to mix up committed to attacks it's still far too baitable to rely on as your constant answer.

"Exactly. Having to make reads is so great, so lets make Shaman have to make reads of their own by changing their dodge heavies to count as light parries so it's not a get out of jail free card anymore."

This is a hyperbolic statement. As I already mentioned there are plenty of classes that get 20+ damage on a heavy parry. She more often than not has to be careful about throwing her side dash heavies because of this. Shaman has to make reads also when it comes to her mix ups. Because as i've said all of her mix ups have hard punishes. And since you clearly state right here that "light parry punish=read=I'm fine with this" means you should be fine with her mix ups. Since they all net a light parry/GB punish or more situationally.

"Because the 400ms soft feints having vulnerability to being parried isn't a genuine weakness, it's a universal mechanic that every class in the game has to face. I know it's shocking that the golden child class should have to adhere to the existing game mechanics like everyone else."

The competitive/tournament winning crowd seems to disagree with you. And even if we ignored that you're being hyperbolic again. Yes. Every class has to deal with the potential of being light parried. That's irrelevant. two of her strongest mix ups involve a possible light parry as a punishment if read wrong. Context is important. By your logic we shouldn't consider GB's as weaknesses to mix ups either because every class has to deal with GB's.

"First off Aramusha has the same thing for his heavies, I thought I would add that in for reference before you try to make it sound like the greatest thing since sliced bread. Secondly it's not actually true that a soft feint into gb won't work but yes Conqueror can certainly beat out many mixups that hard feint into a GB. I notice it most often against Berseker top heavy unblockable. Lets also take into account Conqueror can't cancel into a GB himself because full block stance's enter/exit times will delay all follow up options by roughly 400ms. As you can see, Conqueror actually pays for his strengths with inherent weaknesses unlike Shaman who gets objectively better versions of other classes's stuff for free."

I'm aware of everyone's gb vulnerabilities when it comes to heavies. Saying "Mushu has it too" is irrelevant. The point I tried to illistrate with my multiple points is that a majority of your heavies (not top heavy) are generally safe from pretty much any standard punishment barring a normal parry. Soft feint into GB is 100ms faster than a normal hard feint to GB. You're never going to GB something that has 100ms of vulnerability on reaction or on read. Light attacks have this same gb vulnerability and you know how often those get GBed in start up.

"What exactly does "soft feinting" into a state that you cannot counter gb from have to do with safety? This is basically the opposite of safety because if you cancel into full block too often opponents will then start making reads and guard break you upon seeing a heavy. If you're going to make a big song and dance about how unsafe Shaman is because people can make reads, don't then try to tell us this is not a counter example to Conqueror being safe."

Again the point of the above quote you responded to is he has plenty of wiggle room with his options. And his options in general make attacking him without an unblockable very difficult to do.

"The superior block only lasts 2 frames on console. You're really going to nickel and dime us?"

SB is the same active frames on all platforms. Bringing in the platform argument is an attempt to fluff up your poor argument. Parrying active frames/deflect frames are maybe 1-2 frames more. And people manage to do those just fine. I also see people use the superior frames on kensei's dodges and valks dodges quite often. So either you struggle to use them and that's your problem not the classes or you're just trying to down talk an obvious strength of the class just as any other main would do with their favorite hero.

"Raime, shield bash mixup is terrible. It's a 700ms move. Why would you even consider bringing this up as a strong point for Conqueror? You can easily side dodge and GB it on reaction because it's 200ms longer than a regular shield bash. If you really had to bring this up, what you should have said is how you can branch into an attack much earlier with a shield bash mixup compared to a regular shield bash, but I guess that would have required having more than superficial knowledge of the class."

700ms speeds in general do not mean they're terrible. 700ms attacks still fall into the low GB vulnerability catigories. the point of me bringing up his various bashes and their variable timings is again to prove how much wiggle room conq has with his options. It's either this bash or the one after an attack that has good tracking on early dodges. Meaning if the person is used to you throwing out the faster bashes he might dodge early and eat this bash. Also all of his bashes can be followed up with a light attack even on whiff. So even if you could react dodge/gb his shield bash mix up (since you can't due to the gb vulnerability period) he can just throw a light after which beats that GB attempt. Of course you can just wait and parry after. But then again the conq can also realize this and throw a side heavy instead to throw off your parry timing.

"I guess you mean shield uppercut but who knows. Shield uppercut is extremely easy to dodge and GB. How is that safe?"

Unless his shield uppercut is 800ms or slower you can't react GB on dodge. Any attack that is 700ms or faster has a 100ms to 400ms gb vulnerability period. Soft feint into GB's can some what catch 300ms/400ms gb vulnerabilities due to them being 100ms faster than a standard guard break. But in either case it's a read. And again he can follow any bash with a light after a whiff.

"Finally a decent point from Raime here. I thought he was just going to gish gallop on and on about being able to delay cancels into moves that aren't safe is somehow bolstering Conqueror's safety when there are far better arguments.
While this is an alternative to the zone attack, you are vulnerable to GBs with it which is kinda one of the main points to an option select. So yeah, mixing up between these two is pretty good but I would always err on using the zone attack because the damage based punish for it is way lower in comparison."

Zone attack option select is safer yes. And the fully charged heavy is rarely actually used. But the point is that he has yet another source in his kit that lets him play super defensively.

"Which attack is so slow that you can mess up the superior block timing and get into full block stance (400ms) in time? I believe parrying is a 200ms window within the last 300ms of an attack."

Was a poor way to write my point. It's just me stating that it's possible to get both your parry timing and your SB timing wrong but still have the option to avoid a parry attempt with the soft feint into full block. Which would beat out both a light and heavy parry attempt from the opponent. In other words it's me again restating how safe conq is.

"Every class in the game can hard feint their heavy, dude."

And this comment is just as irrelevant as your one about the light parry. You acknowledge the strengths of his charged heavy option selects. So it should be noted that he doesn't have to commit to the charge in any way. And can cancel it in multiple ways. (full block, hard feint, soft feint into FB if he does commit to release, dodging out of it empty or into a bash.)

"Either I'm misreading something or Raime is just falling apart completely. You're saying full block is virtually safe because you can dodge out of it and your example in parenthesis is the opponent being mid GB....... Raime please, dude. What are you even doing? Just stick to the zone attack, and charging heavy tech, don't try to tell us that full block stance is safe.
Then you say that the Conqueror can dodge out of the full block to superior block to catch an attack to shield bash. Dude just stay in full block and you'll get double the damage if the opponent throws an attack."

Full block is mostly safe. It not being GB immune is a downside i'll grant you that. The reason I bring up dodging out of it is because some times you might want to. Like if someone is threatening you with some attack/gb mix up. And because it's a dodge you get SB frames. and access to a very quick bash. The fastest bash possible for him is 500ms. Which has 200ms? SB frames at almost start up of said dodge. Yes staying in FB would be better for more damage. But dodging out of FB into your 500ms bash is an option if you don't want to read and still have a safe ish attack. (that being your 500ms bash)

"Poor Raime. He still doesn't know the zone is 600ms yet he is trying to school me on a class that I'm in the top 100 for on the PS4. Must have huffed too many competitive reddit fumes today while trying to get their approved response for this thread.
You went on some screed regarding how safe Conqueror is, something nobody disagreed with, and then failed badly by bringing up a bunch of points that were actually counter productive or just saying things that were just plain ridiculous. I really don't understand."

I wasn't trying to teach you about your class. I was pointing out that your class is just as absurd as shaman (in my eyes) because of how safe he is. If I had merely only said "dude is super safe" it wouldn't have been a very decent argument. More over i'm not parading each individual mechanic I listed for conq as amazing and not without flaws. Again. This was a ticket list to prove what makes conq so safe against a majority of offense out there. You openly acknowledge how safe he is. I'm trying to get you to understand that conq is just as bad offender of "poor design" as shaman would be. Because in your eyes she's both hella safe and incredibly offensive. Yet She doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her safe like conq is. The only "safe" thing she would have is speed/gb vulnerability. and her GB vulnerability in 2 of her 4 total mix ups is an issue because everyone can net a GB. So her speed is the only thing. And well. I guess if it comes down to that then there isn't anything else to talk about. Because speed isn't everything and I really don't want to step into that argument again. Wouldn't be productive.

Devils-_-legacy
11-12-2018, 09:02 PM
**** assassins I will quit every time they in my game **** orochi

Did that include hybrids because you must never play a game then?

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 01:05 AM
if u canít beat them join them ... I still got 50 000 steel and option to buy nuxia or a Shaolin and because Shaolin is op and is hybrid hmm why not get a hybrid . I think itís a good idea .

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 01:13 AM
This is hilarious coming from the same tool who defends his conqueror with all the fervor of a thousand angry chimps upset because someone wants to take away their toys. It's sad really what a bubble you live in.

At least I never had a mental break down on these forums where I started calling everyone subhumans like you did last year. lol


I wish I could see life from your perspective

Try platform shoes. I'm sure there's gotta be a pair that'll take you from 4 foot to 6 foot. Who knows, maybe you'll even find a pair for your negative KDR from S1 to S4 while you're at it.


but I don't honestly think I could get my head that far up my own ***.

The guy who has repeatedly declared on these forums that tiers do not exist is trying to purport that I'm the one who is out of touch. Astonishing.

The difference between Alustar and I is that I'm actually receptive to making changes to Conqueror whereas Alustar would just shut down at the slightest thought there was a change to S1 - S4 PK or Shaman by saying tiers don't exist.


400ms is the same speed for all soft feints and hard feints in the game. Resting your guard up top and waiting to see if they commit to the heavy is a lot safer/easier to defend than waiting on the side of the heavy and trying to block the attack after. You're misleading here by calling her top heavy essentially another 400ms option but you bury the lead by openly stating the attack is 800ms total. Regardless. Blocking up top means she can't soft feint into top or she'll be blocked/parried. You're not having to react to a 400ms option if you always rest your guard up top. you're reacting to either a 500ms attack (soft feint to either side) or an 800ms heavy.

Raime it's not rocket science. Both the opener side heavy and top heavy are 800ms. You initiate a side heavy. 400ms into the heavy you can soft feint into a bleed. One of those being a top 400ms soft feint, however since you're already 400ms into an 800ms attack that's 400ms remaining on the heavy. Therefore from that point in time you have two 400ms options, that side heavy is allowed to finish or that top soft feint occurs.

I don't know why you're talking about the top heavy. Maybe you think the top heavy is 800ms but the side heavies are longer. Who knows.


Conq's zone is complained about because of how safe it is due to the full block property which makes it a strong option select tool. Shaman's side dash heavy isn't good for option selecting side side deflects are borked in the game. It is a good attack. But you make it off to be amazing when functionally it's not. The extra damage due to it being a heavy is the best part. And like I said while it's a decent answer to mix up committed to attacks it's still far too baitable to rely on as your constant answer.

You don't need to do anything other than parry a 600ms attack that always comes from the right side in the context of being an option select. Having full block on the move doesn't change anything about that.


This is a hyperbolic statement. As I already mentioned there are plenty of classes that get 20+ damage on a heavy parry. She more often than not has to be careful about throwing her side dash heavies because of this. Shaman has to make reads also when it comes to her mix ups. Because as i've said all of her mix ups have hard punishes. And since you clearly state right here that "light parry punish=read=I'm fine with this" means you should be fine with her mix ups. Since they all net a light parry/GB punish or more situationally.

Well where did I say to nerf any of her mixups? Just because I proved they aren't weak and super easy to bypass like you try to claim, doesn't mean I want them nerfed. The only change I've even suggested is to make her dodge heavy count as a light parry which is inline with most other dodge attacks. But because Shaman is the golden child class, even the most reasonable suggestions generate a ton of ire from people like you.


The competitive/tournament winning crowd seems to disagree with you. And even if we ignored that you're being hyperbolic again. Yes. Every class has to deal with the potential of being light parried. That's irrelevant. two of her strongest mix ups involve a possible light parry as a punishment if read wrong. Context is important. By your logic we shouldn't consider GB's as weaknesses to mix ups either because every class has to deal with GB's.

This seems to be a recurring theme. It's somehow a weakness when Shaman needs to adhere to norms like every other class. She can get parried. Oh that's unfair! Her dodge heavies that are the speed of a standard light attack should count as a light parry? That's unfair!!!


I'm aware of everyone's gb vulnerabilities when it comes to heavies. Saying "Mushu has it too" is irrelevant. The point I tried to illistrate with my multiple points is that a majority of your heavies (not top heavy) are generally safe from pretty much any standard punishment barring a normal parry. Soft feint into GB is 100ms faster than a normal hard feint to GB. You're never going to GB something that has 100ms of vulnerability on reaction or on read. Light attacks have this same gb vulnerability and you know how often those get GBed in start up.

Irrelevant? How so? Because if safety is the most important thing competitive wise and Aramusha is by one of the least competitively viable yet has this same property, clearly it's not nearly as helpful as far as safety goes as you're trying to make it out to be. Saying "irrelevant" doesn't make facts you don't like go away.


SB is the same active frames on all platforms. Bringing in the platform argument is an attempt to fluff up your poor argument. Parrying active frames/deflect frames are maybe 1-2 frames more. And people manage to do those just fine. I also see people use the superior frames on kensei's dodges and valks dodges quite often. So either you struggle to use them and that's your problem not the classes or you're just trying to down talk an obvious strength of the class just as any other main would do with their favorite hero.

Nothing to do with a platform argument. I brought up console because they're locked at 30 fps and therefore you would know what each frame's actual time value is. Do you really believe I give a crap about the minuscule timing differences between 30fps and 60fps? Nickel and diming people on delays and a couple of frames given by superior block, saying that they "give Conqueror wiggle room" seems to be your gig.


700ms speeds in general do not mean they're terrible. 700ms attacks still fall into the low GB vulnerability catigories.

It's statements like this that just goes to show that Raime has basically no practical experience regarding what he's talking about. He's just trying his best to cobble competitive reddit's approved opinions into a response. Shield bash mixup is terrible, period, don't bring it up when you're trying to give strong points regarding Conqueror unless you want to look like a fool.


Meaning if the person is used to you throwing out the faster bashes he might dodge early and eat this bash. Also all of his bashes can be followed up with a light attack even on whiff. So even if you could react dodge/gb his shield bash mix up (since you can't due to the gb vulnerability period) he can just throw a light after which beats that GB attempt. Of course you can just wait and parry after. But then again the conq can also realize this and throw a side heavy instead to throw off your parry timing.

Raime forgot the part where he said earlier that light attacks are GB vulnerable for the first 100ms, meaning you were late anyway. Past Raime just KO'd present Raime for me.


Unless his shield uppercut is 800ms or slower you can't react GB on dodge. Any attack that is 700ms or faster has a 100ms to 400ms gb vulnerability period. Soft feint into GB's can some what catch 300ms/400ms gb vulnerabilities due to them being 100ms faster than a standard guard break. But in either case it's a read. And again he can follow any bash with a light after a whiff.

Uh yes? Shield uppercut is 800ms. Shouldn't you have already known this if you're going to call the move safe?????
Maybe before engaging in an argument like this, you should brush up on the character stats and frame data first.


Was a poor way to write my point. It's just me stating that it's possible to get both your parry timing and your SB timing wrong but still have the option to avoid a parry attempt with the soft feint into full block. Which would beat out both a light and heavy parry attempt from the opponent. In other words it's me again restating how safe conq is.

Well if the parry timing was that bad then you could do a standard feint and block as anyone else anyway. If anything Conqueror is less safe in this regard because he needs 400ms to get his block activated.


Full block is mostly safe. It not being GB immune is a downside i'll grant you that. The reason I bring up dodging out of it is because some times you might want to. Like if someone is threatening you with some attack/gb mix up. And because it's a dodge you get SB frames. and access to a very quick bash. The fastest bash possible for him is 500ms. Which has 200ms? SB frames at almost start up of said dodge. Yes staying in FB would be better for more damage. But dodging out of FB into your 500ms bash is an option if you don't want to read and still have a safe ish attack. (that being your 500ms bash)

Mostly safe outside of a 400ms move from neutral that everyone has?

Raime if you want to counter a guard break you predict is coming, then do a top heavy. If you see no guard break, soft feint into the uppercut. Don't try to dodge out into a shield bash against a GB.


If I had merely only said "dude is super safe" it wouldn't have been a very decent argument.

Yeah but if you kept it short and simple like that, it would have been way better as it would be less filler content for me to shift through to find stuff that's actually worth responding to and for you it wouldn't have given so many opportunities to show that you really don't know what you're talking about.


You openly acknowledge how safe he is. I'm trying to get you to understand that conq is just as bad offender of "poor design" as shaman would be. Because in your eyes she's both hella safe and incredibly offensive. Yet She doesn't have anything in her kit that would make her safe like conq is. The only "safe" thing she would have is speed/gb vulnerability. and her GB vulnerability in 2 of her 4 total mix ups is an issue because everyone can net a GB. So her speed is the only thing. And well. I guess if it comes down to that then there isn't anything else to talk about. Because speed isn't everything and I really don't want to step into that argument again. Wouldn't be productive.

Well no he's not, since he actually pays for his strengths with weaknesses unlike Shaman. Shaman is just an amalgamation of other people's moves yet has much superior versions without the weaknesses and no unique weaknesses to herself.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2018, 03:19 AM
@ArchDukeInstinct

"Raime it's not rocket science. Both the opener side heavy and top heavy are 800ms. You initiate a side heavy. 400ms into the heavy you can soft feint into a bleed. One of those being a top 400ms soft feint, however since you're already 400ms into an 800ms attack that's 400ms remaining on the heavy. Therefore from that point in time you have two 400ms options, that side heavy is allowed to finish or that top soft feint occurs.
I don't know why you're talking about the top heavy. Maybe you think the top heavy is 800ms but the side heavies are longer. Who knows."

Blocking up top means her soft feint into top light which is the 400ms attack is invalid. She can't soft feint there or she'll be blocked/parried. This means she after throwing a heavy has two options for attack. Letting the raw heavy go (which is 800ms) or soft feinting to either side. Which is a 500ms attack. Soft feints occur at 400ms. That does not mean soft feint attacks are 400ms like your wording is implying. Also not once in this quoted section did I specify top heavy. I only mention up top when speaking about denying the soft feint top light.

"You don't need to do anything other than parry a 600ms attack that always comes from the right side in the context of being an option select. Having full block on the move doesn't change anything about that."

This doesn't refute the point I made. Which was full block makes it a very safe option select tool. it being 600ms doesn't matter in that regard since all zones that are 600ms or faster are considered decent option select tools.

"Well where did I say to nerf any of her mixups? Just because I proved they aren't weak and super easy to bypass like you try to claim, doesn't mean I want them nerfed. The only change I've even suggested is to make her dodge heavy count as a light parry which is inline with most other dodge attacks. But because Shaman is the golden child class, even the most reasonable suggestions generate a ton of ire from people like you."

In the above quoted segment I didn't say nor imply that you were asking for nerfs on her mix ups. You were saying in the previous statement that her dodge side heavy is too good because it's a 500ms heavy. And your proposed solution was to make it give a light parry punish. Because in your eyes that would make it fair. I thus took that to mean that all of her mix ups should be fair.
Because all her mix ups net her a light parry punish or a GB. You've been seen posting on the forums before saying that shaman has all the good stuff but with out the downsides. Now how can you acknowledge her mix ups as being fair due to said punishments if she's read properly while also stating that she herself does not have any weaknesses. Because you imply or directly state in our conversation that a light parry punish WOULD be a weakness for something that is strong.

"This seems to be a recurring theme. It's somehow a weakness when Shaman needs to adhere to norms like every other class. She can get parried. Oh that's unfair! Her dodge heavies that are the speed of a standard light attack should count as a light parry? That's unfair!!!"

I've already explained why context matters here.

"Irrelevant? How so? Because if safety is the most important thing competitive wise and Aramusha is by one of the least competitively viable yet has this same property, clearly it's not nearly as helpful as far as safety goes as you're trying to make it out to be. Saying "irrelevant" doesn't make facts you don't like go away."

It's irrelevant because Aramusha is not the topic of discussion. And you yourself point out that aramusha is not considered competitively viable in attempts to discredit the value of having low GB vulnerable heavies. Just because Aramusha is bad doesn't mean he doesn't have any nice aspects to his kit. And as I point out later on towards the end of the post I was not glorifying every nice thing conq has. It was a ticket list showcasing all the aspects in sum to show how strong he is defensively.

"Nothing to do with a platform argument. I brought up console because they're locked at 30 fps and therefore you would know what each frame's actual time value is. Do you really believe I give a crap about the minuscule timing differences between 30fps and 60fps? Nickel and diming people on delays and a couple of frames given by superior block, saying that they "give Conqueror wiggle room" seems to be your gig."

What a lovely bunch of nothing that doesn't disprove the benefits i've mentioned. Delaying is important because the bigger the delay window the harder it is for your opponent to play purely reactionary. and superior block, parries, and deflects all have little amounts of frames. yet all are very usable and important. By hyper focusing on the amount given you're showing that you only aim to discredit rather than disprove. If you're trying to prove that the SB property isn't as good as I'm claiming it to be you'd be better off explaining the downsides of the mechanic in the instances conq has SB frames. Telling me the amount of frames doesn't disprove the benefits of SB frames. At best it only proves that it's not super duper easy to use. But then again that wasn't my point.
My point was that SB frames makes his miss timed heavies and dodges into attacks safer than most.

"It's statements like this that just goes to show that Raime has basically no practical experience regarding what he's talking about. He's just trying his best to cobble competitive reddit's approved opinions into a response. Shield bash mixup is terrible, period, don't bring it up when you're trying to give strong points regarding Conqueror unless you want to look like a fool."

"it's bad because I say it's bad." Mhm. Again. Not actually refuting my point that 700ms attacks can't be gbed on reaction and that he can follow it up with a light.

"Raime forgot the part where he said earlier that light attacks are GB vulnerable for the first 100ms, meaning you were late anyway. Past Raime just KO'd present Raime for me."

Yup. The light after bash won't be GBed. Because a gb is a 400ms action. Soft feint gb's are 300ms. After a dodge you have 100ms till your guard is back up. The GB attempt would take 400ms. so that's 500ms of time that's passed after you dodged the bash. Conqs top light iirc is 500ms. So in order for that GB to even realistically land you'd need to have dodged early. And that would also mean that the person who's playing conq couldn't have delayed the bash or the light follow up. Because if he does either your early dodge won't matter. You won't get the time required to land a GB.

"Uh yes? Shield uppercut is 800ms. Shouldn't you have already known this if you're going to call the move safe?????
Maybe before engaging in an argument like this, you should brush up on the character stats and frame data first."

Feel free to go back to my original statement when we started this. But I don't believe I called his uppercut safe. I called it relatively safe due to a decent ish delay window and the ability to follow a whiff of it with a top light. But yes if the conq wasn't delaying the input and you knew it was going to be an upper cut you realistically could interrupt it with a GB since 800ms attacks typically have a 500ms gb vulnerability period.

"Well if the parry timing was that bad then you could do a standard feint and block as anyone else anyway. If anything Conqueror is less safe in this regard because he needs 400ms to get his block activated."

Conq can't feint his heavies barring his fully charged one. I believe the statement you were replying to was me talking about standard heavies. Conq's standard heavies are only slightly worse compared to other heavies due to the lack of a traditional feint. This is easily made up for the fact that he can soft feint it into full block, has SB frames, is 100ms vulnerable gb wise, and can start to charge a heavy (before it even visually looks like it) as an option select.

"Mostly safe outside of a 400ms move from neutral that everyone has?
Raime if you want to counter a guard break you predict is coming, then do a top heavy. If you see no guard break, soft feint into the uppercut. Don't try to dodge out into a shield bash against a GB."

Top heavies from conq are slow. 800ms neutral and 900ms in combo. I would not throw a top heavy at a gb. I'd throw a side heavy. And I will reiterate. If I DIDN'T want to deal with an attack/gb based mix up I can dodge out into the fast safe bash. I was not in anyway shape or form saying bash to counter a GB that I read coming. I was specifically talking about an option for conq that he can do from full block if the conq didn't want to deal with reading the mix up.

"Yeah but if you kept it short and simple like that, it would have been way better as it would be less filler content for me to shift through to find stuff that's actually worth responding to and for you it wouldn't have given so many opportunities to show that you really don't know what you're talking about."

Nah if I kept it short you would've just responded in the same mannor. Just with less words. At least this way you're actually forced to try and respond with counter points.

"Well no he's not, since he actually pays for his strengths with weaknesses unlike Shaman. Shaman is just an amalgamation of other people's moves yet has much superior versions without the weaknesses and no unique weaknesses to herself."

And we've come full circle. You assert that conq pays for his strengths because it's easy to parry his zone option select and his bashes can be dodged and GBed. You assert that shaman has no downsides to her superior versions of things despite the fact that both parries and GBs are her weaknesses to her kits. The very same things with conq. You can't have it both ways. If you can assert that conq's zone option select isn't strong because it's easy to parry then I can also claim that shaman's soft feint mix ups with lights are not strong because I can parry them. If you can assert that none of the strengths of his bashes are unfair because you can easily dodge and GB them I can claim that shaman's pounce based mix ups are not strong because I can dodge and GB them. And as you already pointed out with Shaman's dodge heavy you are claiming a light parry would justify it's strength as light parrys are a big risk and would force her to "read." Then her soft feint lights should have sufficient weaknesses as well because they can be light parried.

Alustar.
11-13-2018, 04:18 AM
At least I never had a mental break down on these forums where I started calling everyone subhumans like you did last year. lol



Try platform shoes. I'm sure there's gotta be a pair that'll take you from 4 foot to 6 foot. Who knows, maybe you'll even find a pair for your negative KDR from S1 to S4 while you're at it.



The guy who has repeatedly declared on these forums that tiers do not exist is trying to purport that I'm the one who is out of touch. Astonishing.

The difference between Alustar and I is that I'm actually receptive to making changes to Conqueror whereas Alustar would just shut down at the slightest thought there was a change to S1 - S4 PK or Shaman by saying tiers don't exist.



Raime it's not rocket science. Both the opener side heavy and top heavy are 800ms. You initiate a side heavy. 400ms into the heavy you can soft feint into a bleed. One of those being a top 400ms soft feint, however since you're already 400ms into an 800ms attack that's 400ms remaining on the heavy. Therefore from that point in time you have two 400ms options, that side heavy is allowed to finish or that top soft feint occurs.

I don't know why you're talking about the top heavy. Maybe you think the top heavy is 800ms but the side heavies are longer. Who knows.



You don't need to do anything other than parry a 600ms attack that always comes from the right side in the context of being an option select. Having full block on the move doesn't change anything about that.



Well where did I say to nerf any of her mixups? Just because I proved they aren't weak and super easy to bypass like you try to claim, doesn't mean I want them nerfed. The only change I've even suggested is to make her dodge heavy count as a light parry which is inline with most other dodge attacks. But because Shaman is the golden child class, even the most reasonable suggestions generate a ton of ire from people like you.



This seems to be a recurring theme. It's somehow a weakness when Shaman needs to adhere to norms like every other class. She can get parried. Oh that's unfair! Her dodge heavies that are the speed of a standard light attack should count as a light parry? That's unfair!!!



Irrelevant? How so? Because if safety is the most important thing competitive wise and Aramusha is by one of the least competitively viable yet has this same property, clearly it's not nearly as helpful as far as safety goes as you're trying to make it out to be. Saying "irrelevant" doesn't make facts you don't like go away.



Nothing to do with a platform argument. I brought up console because they're locked at 30 fps and therefore you would know what each frame's actual time value is. Do you really believe I give a crap about the minuscule timing differences between 30fps and 60fps? Nickel and diming people on delays and a couple of frames given by superior block, saying that they "give Conqueror wiggle room" seems to be your gig.



It's statements like this that just goes to show that Raime has basically no practical experience regarding what he's talking about. He's just trying his best to cobble competitive reddit's approved opinions into a response. Shield bash mixup is terrible, period, don't bring it up when you're trying to give strong points regarding Conqueror unless you want to look like a fool.



Raime forgot the part where he said earlier that light attacks are GB vulnerable for the first 100ms, meaning you were late anyway. Past Raime just KO'd present Raime for me.



Uh yes? Shield uppercut is 800ms. Shouldn't you have already known this if you're going to call the move safe?????
Maybe before engaging in an argument like this, you should brush up on the character stats and frame data first.



Well if the parry timing was that bad then you could do a standard feint and block as anyone else anyway. If anything Conqueror is less safe in this regard because he needs 400ms to get his block activated.



Mostly safe outside of a 400ms move from neutral that everyone has?

Raime if you want to counter a guard break you predict is coming, then do a top heavy. If you see no guard break, soft feint into the uppercut. Don't try to dodge out into a shield bash against a GB.



Yeah but if you kept it short and simple like that, it would have been way better as it would be less filler content for me to shift through to find stuff that's actually worth responding to and for you it wouldn't have given so many opportunities to show that you really don't know what you're talking about.



Well no he's not, since he actually pays for his strengths with weaknesses unlike Shaman. Shaman is just an amalgamation of other people's moves yet has much superior versions without the weaknesses and no unique weaknesses to herself.

Lol, keep telling yourself all that, dude. You are one of the prime examples of subhuman cromagnum hominids populating the forums who sling **** on players at the slightest disagreement to their own pathetic world view.

And yes, it's pretty true that tiers aren't any sort of an argument for anything. If there were an official ranking outside of "easy, medium, hard" given in the tool tips (which denotes difficulty of play) I'd be more inclined to believe anything the player base argues on the matter but the fact is, the tier lists are all player made and borderline nonsense and only there to help justify why some one lost a match, because they all run "b tier" or below but everyone else has "A,S or S+" (yeah, I laughed so hard when I saw some one post about S+ tiers) tier characters.
Lastly, I love that you are still on about K/D from last year, because last time I checked I have a 2.35 in death match( which I run pretty much solo) and 1.70 in objective modes. Maybe you should remove that dirty foot from your mouth before you choke on it, and your massive inferiority complex.
Lol noob.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2018, 04:49 AM
Lol, keep telling yourself all that, dude. You are one of the prime examples of subhuman cromagnum hominids populating the forums who sling **** on players at the slightest disagreement to their own pathetic world view.

And yes, it's pretty true that tiers aren't any sort of an argument for anything. If there were an official ranking outside of "easy, medium, hard" given in the tool tips (which denotes difficulty of play) I'd be more inclined to believe anything the player base argues on the matter but the fact is, the tier lists are all player made and borderline nonsense and only there to help justify why some one lost a match, because they all run "b tier" or below but everyone else has "A,S or S+" (yeah, I laughed so hard when I saw some one post about S+ tiers) tier characters.
Lastly, I love that you are still on about K/D from last year, because last time I checked I have a 2.35 in death match( which I run pretty much solo) and 1.70 in objective modes. Maybe you should remove that dirty foot from your mouth before you choke on it, and your massive inferiority complex.
Lol noob.

Not really taking sides here but fighting games don't typically have "official" tier lists from the developers. Tier lists are always born from the community. Specifically the best players in the game. As they both have the reflexes and the knowledge of the game that most players don't have. This of course doesn't mean they're always correct. That's why there is constant debate about placements. But people in general take tier lists a bit too seriously in general. They don't realistically apply to the majority of the people who play the game. And tier lists are more just about meta talk anyway which is basically theory crafting. But that's kinda what high tier players care about/have fun doing when not playing.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 06:17 AM
Lol, keep telling yourself all that, dude.

Telling myself what? All I have to do is watch as you have another mental breakdown right now as we speak.


You are one of the prime examples of subhuman cromagnum hominids populating the forums who sling **** on players at the slightest disagreement to their own pathetic world view.

Are you done flailing around like a baby? I'm embarrassed for you.


And yes, it's pretty true that tiers aren't any sort of an argument for anything. If there were an official ranking outside of "easy, medium, hard" given in the tool tips (which denotes difficulty of play) I'd be more inclined to believe anything the player base argues on the matter

An official ranking? The devs literally called Centurion and Shugoki top classes in their last state of balance. Roman thinks Lawbringer needs no changes and that players just need to learn how to play him right. Nice official ranking, bro, you really have your finger on the pulse of this game unlike all those crazy tournament winning pro players who apparently make tier lists to justify why they loss. Shame on those darn subhumans am I right?


but the fact is, the tier lists are all player made and borderline nonsense and only there to help justify why some one lost a match, because they all run "b tier" or below but everyone else has "A,S or S+" (yeah, I laughed so hard when I saw some one post about S+ tiers) tier characters.

If you can't tell there is a large difference in ability to win between a Berseker and a Shugoki than that's more damning than anything I could ever say about you.


Lastly, I love that you are still on about K/D from last year, because last time I checked I have a 2.35 in death match( which I run pretty much solo) and 1.70 in objective modes.

That's because you're reading the crap on your character progression screen which is K/D/A and nobody cares about that. I noticed you didn't include duel.


Maybe you should remove that dirty foot from your mouth before you choke on it, and your massive inferiority complex.
Lol noob.

Yeah dude you're into some really weird stuff, we get it.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 06:19 AM
Blocking up top means her soft feint into top light which is the 400ms attack is invalid. She can't soft feint there or she'll be blocked/parried. This means she after throwing a heavy has two options for attack. Letting the raw heavy go (which is 800ms) or soft feinting to either side. Which is a 500ms attack. Soft feints occur at 400ms. That does not mean soft feint attacks are 400ms like your wording is implying. Also not once in this quoted section did I specify top heavy. I only mention up top when speaking about denying the soft feint top light.

Alright Raime, you clearly can't grasp the concept despite me explaining it in several different ways. You're still bringing up the 500ms side bleeds even though I've made it clear that the two options I'm talking about is between letting a side heavy fly and the top soft feint. So I'm just going to drop it as it is clearly going nowhere.


This doesn't refute the point I made. Which was full block makes it a very safe option select tool. it being 600ms doesn't matter in that regard since all zones that are 600ms or faster are considered decent option select tools.

That's because nobody is trying to refute that the zone attack is a good option select. You know, this could go a lot faster if you would stop trying to prove things that nobody disagreed with but evidently you have an unnecessary need to look "big brained".


In the above quoted segment I didn't say nor imply that you were asking for nerfs on her mix ups. You were saying in the previous statement that her dodge side heavy is too good because it's a 500ms heavy. And your proposed solution was to make it give a light parry punish. Because in your eyes that would make it fair. I thus took that to mean that all of her mix ups should be fair.

Well I don't think it's just in my eyes that a 500ms dodge attack would be more fair if it granted a light parry punish. It's just objectively true compared to other similar moves.


Because all her mix ups net her a light parry punish or a GB. You've been seen posting on the forums before saying that shaman has all the good stuff but with out the downsides. Now how can you acknowledge her mix ups as being fair due to said punishments if she's read properly while also stating that she herself does not have any weaknesses. Because you imply or directly state in our conversation that a light parry punish WOULD be a weakness for something that is strong.

I'm glad you've been paying attention. Yes, Shaman does have all the good stuff such as a 400ms bash attack that can be canceled. Huge OOS punish. Soft feints. And I could go on and on. But the worst one of all is this golden child class syndrome where you can't even ask for something that's actually pretty minor in comparison without it turning into an interrogation about one's main.


It's irrelevant because Aramusha is not the topic of discussion.

OH REALLY??? The topic of discussion for this thread was Shaman until you decided to go on some big rant about Conqueror. ZERO self awareness.


What a lovely bunch of nothing that doesn't disprove the benefits i've mentioned.

That's a great summary of all your arguments so far. A lot of text with almost nothing worth reading.


"it's bad because I say it's bad." Mhm. Again. Not actually refuting my point that 700ms attacks can't be gbed on reaction and that he can follow it up with a light.[/B]

I don't know Raime. You're the dude who doesn't know the speed of the zone attack, nor the speed of the shield uppercut, and thinks shield bash mixup is actually worth using yet continue to act like you know what you're talking about. Yeah totally dude I'm going to use a 700ms bash that only nets a 13 damage light and is far easier to punish compared to the regular shield bash instead of continuing my combo with other attacks like any other class could do to avoid a GB on whiff.


Yup. The light after bash won't be GBed. Because a gb is a 400ms action. Soft feint gb's are 300ms. After a dodge you have 100ms till your guard is back up. The GB attempt would take 400ms. so that's 500ms of time that's passed after you dodged the bash. Conqs top light iirc is 500ms. So in order for that GB to even realistically land you'd need to have dodged early. And that would also mean that the person who's playing conq couldn't have delayed the bash or the light follow up. Because if he does either your early dodge won't matter. You won't get the time required to land a GB.

Right, Raime. So if you weren't in position to GB in time with a light being thrown adding on 100ms of GB vulnerability to the existing recovery time, then you weren't in position to GB in time without a light being thrown and no 100ms GB invulnerability added on top. That's why the whole excuse of "Conqueror can follow up a shield bash miss with a light" is crap and you should feel bad for using it.

And I'd like to put a side note in, you randomly mention that "soft feint gbs are 300ms". Like dude, we're talking about dodging a shield bash and trying to guard break. It's not going to be a soft feint GB so stop putting useless filler like that into your posts. This is why I say that you gish gallop. You just put in as much random crap as possible, hoping I get tired correcting it all. You're bloating the discussion with information that even if true is garbage because it's not needed. Just like you bloated this whole thread by making it about Conqueror randomly when it's actually about Shaman.


Feel free to go back to my original statement when we started this. But I don't believe I called his uppercut safe. I called it relatively safe due to a decent ish delay window and the ability to follow a whiff of it with a top light. But yes if the conq wasn't delaying the input and you knew it was going to be an upper cut you realistically could interrupt it with a GB since 800ms attacks typically have a 500ms gb vulnerability period.

You're the one droning on about how safe Conqueror is and added in shield uppercut, now suddenly you're saying it's not safe but whatever. You can't call something safe if you can blatantly side dodge it and get a GB. Just because you can't GB it on reaction doesn't mean it's safe.

But anyway, I'm now going to add information that I withdrew from my last post because I knew that you wouldn't know that shield uppercut explicitly has only a 100ms GB vulnerability and it was another opportunity for people to see just how clueless you really are.

See you can put out a lot of information that is largely nonsense, so to the untrained it looks like you have a really detailed post and must clearly know what you're talking about, and for the most part that's what I thought when you talked about other classes. Now that you're talking about the class I have a ton of experience in, I can see just how full of ******** you really are and it's now putting everything you've ever written into question as far as I'm concerned.


Conq can't feint his heavies barring his fully charged one.

Am I being punked right now?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you meant how you can cancel the charged state. You're wrong by the way because you can cancel while it's charging too, it doesn't need to be fully charged.

But even that makes no sense, but that's the best I can do to interpret your statement in a way that isn't completely stupid.


I believe the statement you were replying to was me talking about standard heavies. Conq's standard heavies are only slightly worse compared to other heavies due to the lack of a traditional feint. This is easily made up for the fact that he can soft feint it into full block, has SB frames, is 100ms vulnerable gb wise, and can start to charge a heavy (before it even visually looks like it) as an option select.

I like how having a lack of a traditional feint is only considered slightly worse in a discussion regarding safe moves. Especially given that most of your points "Well I can't randomly GB and catch this move's startup blah blah blah" yet reading a full block stance and going for a guard break will catch it. Suddenly being able to catch something on a GB through a read is no biggie.


Top heavies from conq are slow. 800ms neutral and 900ms in combo. I would not throw a top heavy at a gb. I'd throw a side heavy. And I will reiterate. If I DIDN'T want to deal with an attack/gb based mix up I can dodge out into the fast safe bash. I was not in anyway shape or form saying bash to counter a GB that I read coming. I was specifically talking about an option for conq that he can do from full block if the conq didn't want to deal with reading the mix up.

Raime all the heavies have a 100ms GB invulnerability. A top heavy is exactly what you want to do.


Nah if I kept it short you would've just responded in the same mannor. Just with less words. At least this way you're actually forced to try and respond with counter points.

You're lucky you're getting dignified with a response at all after pulling that nonsense regarding Aramusha.


And we've come full circle. You assert that conq pays for his strengths because it's easy to parry his zone option select and his bashes can be dodged and GBed. You assert that shaman has no downsides to her superior versions of things despite the fact that both parries and GBs are her weaknesses to her kits. The very same things with conq. You can't have it both ways. If you can assert that conq's zone option select isn't strong because it's easy to parry then I can also claim that shaman's soft feint mix ups with lights are not strong because I can parry them. If you can assert that none of the strengths of his bashes are unfair because you can easily dodge and GB them I can claim that shaman's pounce based mix ups are not strong because I can dodge and GB them. And as you already pointed out with Shaman's dodge heavy you are claiming a light parry would justify it's strength as light parrys are a big risk and would force her to "read." Then her soft feint lights should have sufficient weaknesses as well because they can be light parried.

Every single class in this game can get parried but not every class has as weak damage as Conqueror relative to the speed of his attacks. Not every class has crappy opener lights where only one direction is 500ms. Not every class is missing a standard feint and have to use a full block stance instead which heavily delays any follow up options such as a GB and puts them into a vulnerable state. The fact the only "weakness" you can come up with for Shaman is something that is completely universal to every class in the game just further demonstrates there is no inherent weaknesses in the class.

As for the light parry on the dodge attacks, that's not even making it a weakness actually, that's just putting it in line with most side dodge attacks as I've explained numerous times. I'm just taking away one strength that Shaman doesn't need anyway and making it average.

And that's the crazy part, just insisting that Shaman be put in line with other classes for even one component of the kit is too much to ask apparently.

Knight_Raime
11-13-2018, 08:27 AM
@ArchDukeInstinct

"That's because nobody is trying to refute that the zone attack is a good option select. You know, this could go a lot faster if you would stop trying to prove things that nobody disagreed with but evidently you have an unnecessary need to look "big brained" "

Then perhaps I got confused because my reply was to your former point on the zone attack which made it sound like you were discrediting how good his zone was. Which is why I re brought up the option select factor.

"Well I don't think it's just in my eyes that a 500ms dodge attack would be more fair if it granted a light parry punish. It's just objectively true compared to other similar moves."

Which doesn't matter to the point I was discussing. This is side stepping what that part was about.

"I'm glad you've been paying attention. Yes, Shaman does have all the good stuff such as a 400ms bash attack that can be canceled. Huge OOS punish. Soft feints. And I could go on and on. But the worst one of all is this golden child class syndrome where you can't even ask for something that's actually pretty minor in comparison without it turning into an interrogation about one's main."

Which again is not the point of this quoted section. Which was me pointing out that you are batently agreeing she has weaknesses to her mix ups despite you originally stating she has no weaknesses at all.

"I don't know Raime. You're the dude who doesn't know the speed of the zone attack, nor the speed of the shield uppercut, and thinks shield bash mixup is actually worth using yet continue to act like you know what you're talking about. Yeah totally dude I'm going to use a 700ms bash that only nets a 13 damage light and is far easier to punish compared to the regular shield bash instead of continuing my combo with other attacks like any other class could do to avoid a GB on whiff."

This still doesn't refute/disprove my point about the 700ms bash being semi safe.

"Right, Raime. So if you weren't in position to GB in time with a light being thrown adding on 100ms of GB vulnerability to the existing recovery time, then you weren't in position to GB in time without a light being thrown and no 100ms GB invulnerability added on top. That's why the whole excuse of "Conqueror can follow up a shield bash miss with a light" is crap and you should feel bad for using it."

Nah because that's not how it works. If the person doesn't delay the bash and doesn't follow up with a light after said bash whiff you can GB it on dodge on read. But if he delays the bash or adds in a delayed light after you miss your GB window from the early dodge.

"You're the one droning on about how safe Conqueror is and added in shield uppercut, now suddenly you're saying it's not safe but whatever. You can't call something safe if you can blatantly side dodge it and get a GB. Just because you can't GB it on reaction doesn't mean it's safe."

I specificaly clarified with verbiage what was safe and what was semi safe. Either way conq is incredibly safe as a whole which you don't seem to refute.

"But anyway, I'm now going to add information that I withdrew from my last post because I knew that you wouldn't know that shield uppercut explicitly has only a 100ms GB vulnerability and it was another opportunity for people to see just how clueless you really are.
See you can put out a lot of information that is largely nonsense, so to the untrained it looks like you have a really detailed post and must clearly know what you're talking about, and for the most part that's what I thought when you talked about other classes. Now that you're talking about the class I have a ton of experience in, I can see just how full of ******** you really are and it's now putting everything you've ever written into question as far as I'm concerned"

I have detailed knowledge of how the general game works. The GB vulnerability stuff I spout off is approximate knowledge based on how a majority of things are in the game. I do not have intimate knowledge on every single hero. The only two attacks I was aware of that didn't follow the standard rule of thumb was wardens unblockable top heavy and glads zone before this most recent patch. If you want to throw out any info I happen to speak just because I got a few details with conq wrong go right ahead. I'll continue sharing my knowledge of the game and share new info as I learn it.

"I like how having a lack of a traditional feint is only considered slightly worse in a discussion regarding safe moves. Especially given that most of your points "Well I can't randomly GB and catch this move's startup blah blah blah" yet reading a full block stance and going for a guard break will catch it. Suddenly being able to catch something on a GB through a read is no biggie."

Another generalized statement where context is important.

"Raime all the heavies have a 100ms GB invulnerability. A top heavy is exactly what you want to do."

I find it highly suspect that he'd have 2 moves that don't follow the standard gb vulnerability window behavior. But i'll accept this for now as I have no way to refute it.

"Every single class in this game can get parried but not every class has as weak damage as Conqueror relative to the speed of his attacks. Not every class has crappy opener lights where only one direction is 500ms. Not every class is missing a standard feint and have to use a full block stance instead which heavily delays any follow up options such as a GB and puts them into a vulnerable state. The fact the only "weakness" you can come up with for Shaman is something that is completely universal to every class in the game just further demonstrates there is no inherent weaknesses in the class."

Round and round we go. Not going to repeat myself again. And honestly conq's low damage doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when most of his damage is guaranteed or decently safe. You'd think a hero that has practically no offense of his own would keep him from being S tier but nope. he's entirely held up with how safe he is.

"And that's the crazy part, just insisting that Shaman be put in line with other classes for even one component of the kit is too much to ask apparently."

If her kit really was overtuned as you seem to be implying you'd think she'd be considered pretty strong in the competitive scene. But she's not.

I'm just going to end this here. This isn't a productive discussion and you can't seem to go a single post without taking something out of context, side stepping a point to make another point, or cherry picking statements to make me look bad. Not to mention your general attitude in all your replies has been anywhere from down taking to straight up taking it out of my ***. I would like to say that this aggressive behavior was mostly do to me challenging the design of your main. But seeing your general attitude in other posts leads me to believe that's not the case. I had removed you off of my ignore list awhile back because I started seeing your posts again and in general it seemed like you were mostly neutral and even sometimes helpful.

But even if this kind of behavior was only towards me it's still rather disgusting. I do thank you for your time that you committed to responding to me even if it wasn't in a satisfactory manner. I hope in the future we can actually have some healthy debates. But if the next scuff we get into is anything like this i'm just going to have to go back to ignoring you. I don't really handle this kind of stuff well. And i'd rather just ignore and move on rather than get ****ty back and probably end up being banned. Have a nice night/morning.

ChampionRuby50g
11-13-2018, 09:49 AM
Well, we all now know for certain who is the forums current toxic ******bag is. Reminds of a bit more literate Ulrich.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 10:07 AM
Then perhaps I got confused because my reply was to your former point on the zone attack which made it sound like you were discrediting how good his zone was. Which is why I re brought up the option select factor.

You get confused because you gish gallop so much so there's no way to keep focus on any one particular point.


This still doesn't refute/disprove my point about the 700ms bash being semi safe.

Okay Raime. Shield bash mixup is safe against random GB attempts on its startup. Congratulations because there's no other potential ways to interrupt it like throwing a light or something and it's not totally 700ms meaning it can be dodged on reaction and guard broken at that point in time instead of on startup.


Nah because that's not how it works. If the person doesn't delay the bash and doesn't follow up with a light after said bash whiff you can GB it on dodge on read. But if he delays the bash or adds in a delayed light after you miss your GB window from the early dodge.

If you dodged early and they delayed the bash, then you get hit by the bash you fool. If it didn't work that way you could dodge early anytime as soon as you saw a dodge and completely nullify the bash/gb mixup completely because the early dodge would end in time for you to counter guard break.


I specificaly clarified with verbiage what was safe and what was semi safe. Either way conq is incredibly safe as a whole which you don't seem to refute.

Exactly Raime, you've been arguing for something that nobody ever refuted and still managed to **** it up. How does that feel?


Round and round we go. Not going to repeat myself again. And honestly conq's low damage doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things when most of his damage is guaranteed or decently safe. You'd think a hero that has practically no offense of his own would keep him from being S tier but nope. he's entirely held up with how safe he is.

That's because he does have offense, it's just all concentrated in the shield bash mixup.


I'm just going to end this here. This isn't a productive discussion and you can't seem to go a single post without taking something out of context, side stepping a point to make another point, or cherry picking statements to make me look bad.

I can't answer everything when all you do is gish gallop. If I had to put together a constructive answer to every single minute point you made even though at least half are basically worthless to begin with, I would be here all day just to write one response to something that overall I'm not even really in disagreement. I got a life, dude.


Not to mention your general attitude in all your replies has been anywhere from down taking to straight up taking it out of my ***. I would like to say that this aggressive behavior was mostly do to me challenging the design of your main. But seeing your general attitude in other posts leads me to believe that's not the case. I had removed you off of my ignore list awhile back because I started seeing your posts again and in general it seemed like you were mostly neutral and even sometimes helpful.

Nah, Raime you took me off the ignore list because you wanted to watch the only real action this forum gets.


But even if this kind of behavior was only towards me it's still rather disgusting. I do thank you for your time that you committed to responding to me even if it wasn't in a satisfactory manner. I hope in the future we can actually have some healthy debates. But if the next scuff we get into is anything like this i'm just going to have to go back to ignoring you. I don't really handle this kind of stuff well. And i'd rather just ignore and move on rather than get ****ty back and probably end up being banned. Have a nice night/morning.

You gotta let that aggression out, Raime. It's good for you.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 10:13 AM
Well, we all now know for certain who is the forums current toxic ******bag is. Reminds of a bit more literate Ulrich.

Nevermind this guy, Raime. He's just a hanger on. An NPC to put it in gaming terms. He can call you a toxic whatever all he wants but it's just useless prattle.

Herbstlicht
11-13-2018, 10:29 AM
Hm, guess something else to consider is the different platforms people experience Shaman on. She might be way easier to face on PC, whereas on console, she will continue to have a good time. And though I already said that I do not see the need for some immediate nerfs to her, I still believe she is one of the stronger assassins, specially in teamgames what does count the most for me. That isn't necessarily bad, because overall I wish that assassins would be even more effective in teamgames. But there, classes without special moves like unblockables, shoves etc. are below most others from a simple design perspective. So when acknowledging this but instead of a nerf on shaman we ask for slightly more options on other heroes, I guess it would be the better way to make things work out for us. Might take Ubi longer, but should keep the whole community happier. Maybe :3

ChampionRuby50g
11-13-2018, 10:32 AM
Donít know why youíd think Raime would give two ****s about me commenting. Pretty interesting though considering the tone youíve been talking to him in for the last few hours though. Itís Almost as if youíre just desperately trying to find someone to latch onto, like a cry for help. Not so useless if i can get some form of attention from the man himself though lol.

But youíre right, I do just hang around now. Only come on the forums when Iím bored. But itís great to see youíre as entertaining as usual. Keep it up buddy, looking forward to the next time.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-13-2018, 10:53 AM
Players until season 4: omg, pk is so broken and boring, nerf, remove, kill the players playing her.
Same players during season 4: wow, the shaman is so unique! She was literally built on pk, and was given 5 additional tools, including self heal and a 500ms bash that deals 50 damage and also selfheal. But her heavies deal less damage than pk's, so balance.

Because how broken she was, and how the players above acted, I will always hate shamans (I am also not a fond of idiotic characters, and she is little more than an animal). I don't find her hard these days, I can kill her even with my pk and lb if the player is not well above me in skill. She is far from the most well made either, that is clearly the kensei.

She certainly doesn't worth this much hate.

ArchDukeInstinct
11-13-2018, 10:56 AM
Don’t know why you’d think Raime would give two ****s about me commenting. Pretty interesting though considering the tone you’ve been talking to him in for the last few hours though. It’s Almost as if you’re just desperately trying to find someone to latch onto, like a cry for help. Not so useless if i can get some form of attention from the man himself though lol.

But you’re right, I do just hang around now. Only come on the forums when I’m bored. But it’s great to see you’re as entertaining as usual. Keep it up buddy, looking forward to the next time.

Oh the NPC is in its "Generate Psychoanalysis Quackery" subroutine. Don't worry everyone, it'll shut down due to a memory leak or segmentation fault soon enough.