PDA

View Full Version : Compiled list of things that need to change in For Honor



Czarnone
11-10-2018, 05:07 PM
DISCLAIMER: I'm a high level player that plays the game everyday and has a very good idea of what's wrong with the game currently but I'm not a top tier competitive player so what I'm stating in this thread is not set in stone and is open to critique. Feel free to share your thoughts.

MECHANICS
-revenge in 1v1 fights should not be enabled; you could cap the revenge gain in 1v1 fights to 50% so that if a third person joins the fight and it becomes a 1v2 then you can gain the ramaining 50% and use your revenge; some heroes rely a lot on moves (bashes, GB, chip damage) that feed a lot of revenge and lose fights because all of the sudden their opponents gets revenge for just turtling up
-CC moves such as stampade charge, sickle rain, shaman's bite should not prevent the victim from using revenge; it's extremely unfair when outnumbered and it doesn't make sense that some moves like lawbringer's long arm does not prevent revenge activations and other moves do
-flickering attack indicators in ganks need to be fixed aswell as attack indicators changing direction as the opponent moves around you mid attack for instance when performing a dodge attack; external blocking/parrying in ganks often times does not work aswell even if you see your hero perform the block/parry animation
-ledge magnetism should be fixed and you shouldn't be able to do an insta-kill jump attack from a height of 1,5m in maps like beach head for instance
-bots need improvements because right now they react to everything you do but at the same time they are very unaware of their surroundings and can easily be killed by turtling or ganking them as they focus only one player at one time; also some of them do the correct max punishes for their hero some just do not even come close
-unlock roll is still extremely strong even after its nerf so increasing the GB vulnerability window on startup by an extra 100ms or so would make sense; in ranked 1v1 matches there's also the problem of kiting and running around to not run out of stamina and use unlocked attacks; a possible fix would be to disable unlocking in 1v1 ranked matches
- as of now assassin's have like 10 hp less than vanguards (not even a light attack worth of difference), they have higher running speed, higher attack speed, on average more damage output, deflect that can reward them even for an accitendal dodge, faster revenge gain, better dodges, they just outshine other classes in every single shape or form
-heavy heroes have too low damage and not enough hyper armour

MENUS, UI and HUD
-menus are poorly thought out and often times unresponsive; a good example is the "player x left the session" messages queu after you leave a game that covers the chat and the invetory space
-matchmaking takes too long: there's a wait time for finding a lobby, there's a wait time in the lobby for map voting, a wait time for hero selection and a wait time for loading; this makes it so that entering a game takes anywhere from 3 to 5 minutes; matchamking is also often unbalanced and random players get to fight againt premade groups that comunicate with voice chat; there should be a separate matchmaking for randoms and premade groups as the latter have a huge advantage and always win
-in game UI and HUD are bad; here's a thread with pictures that show very well what the ideal UI/HUD options would look like (I highly suggest you check it out) https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1899552-Complete-UI-Menu-Rework-Including-Pictures-Forums
-the order system does not keep into account the faction/heroes you play as so you often times get orders for heroes you don't play and game modes you don't care about
-the game takes no track of the match meaning that if you disconnect at the end of a 30 min breach game you get 0 reward; there should be a system that keeps track of a match in progress and gives the earned reward on disconnect

HEROES
REWORK: Warden, Conqueror, Lawbringer, Centurion, Raider, Warlord, Valkyrie, Shugoki, Orochi, Aramusha, Nuxia
NERF: It's better to buff the weak than to nerf the strong to make gameplay more exciting
BUFF: Peacekeeper, Gladiator, Nobushi
FINE AS IS (even if they could use tweaks to their moves or feats): Berserker, Highlander, Shaman, Kensei, Shinobi, Tiandi, Jiang-Jun, Shaolin

Knights
Warden
-weaknesses: weak swordsplay due to slow heavies and high GB vulnerability on heavy startup and slow recovery on heavy attack whiff, predictable mixups compared to vanguards like kensei and tiandi, high stamina consumption, complete lack of soft feints; due to these facts he is over reliant on his shoulder bash effectively making him an efficent but boring one-trick-pony
-strengths: OP shoulder bash that grants either 18 or 40 damage and can be fainted even after he starts lunging at the opponent making it very safe, his thick blood feat is very strong, strong out of stamina throw/parry punishes
Conqueror
-weaknesses: he is the only heavy in the game that has no hyper armour at all (meanwhile an assassin like berserker has a lot of HA), he has low damage for a hero described as a hard hitter, 600ms side lights are too slow, very bad range and hitboxes on his attacks expecially his top heavy, bad punishes, no ability to hard feint for whatever reason, very bad soft feints beacuse the shield uppercut from neutral is very slow and reactable, does not wallsplat and cannot be chained if whiffed effectively granting a guaranteed guardbreak for the opponent and his full block is very slow at 400ms and is very punishable with a GB or bash, his charged heavy uses a lot of stamina has a 300ms guard switch delay and makes the player unable to counter GB making it an useless tool aside from option selecting, his superior block can be blocked and to add insult to injury all his mixups are very stamina intensive; for these flaws on his kit he is over realiant of his shield bash effectively making him a one-trick-pony that often times has to kill his opponent in slow fights where he shield bashes them into 13 damage lights to death
-strengths: OP variable timed shield bash that has incredible out of stamina pressure, best defensive tools in the game
Peacekeeper
-weaknesses: very low damage, most of her damage comes from stackable bleed which is a bad mechanic beacuse she can be killed before her opponent bleeds out furthermore the thick blood feat makes her useless, lack of mixups, monodirectional light attack soft feint (shaman has omnidirecitonal), slow dodge attack, doesn't get a heavy attack from a guardbreak, uses a lot of stamina; she's is just a much much weaker shaman literally shaman has all peacekeeper has but better and then more tools
-strengths: good zone
Lawbringer
-weaknesses: has the heaviest armour set in the game but only has hyper armour on shove and long arm which kinda makes it like he has no hyper armour at all, has no openers, he has no softeints, slow side lights and chained lights, low damage for a big man with a poleaxe, his neutral shove is too slow, his shoves guarantee nothing and feed a lot of revenge, his long arm is too slow, he lacks some basic chains like heavy-heavy for instance, his unblockable attack is hard to access to, he has very high GB vulnerability on heavy startup and slow recovery on heavy attack whiff; he is just a very very weak jiang-jun and has to rely on turtling to deal damage
-strengths: good punishes, impale is a good ganking tool
Centurion
-weaknesses: no openers or mixups, super slow chained lights, short range, cannot feint his zone and his unblockable heavy for whatever reason, he feeds revenge like no other, his punishes are too slow to be performed in ganks, his punches is too slow to land, none of punches or kicks wallspat except his knee counter attack; the optimal way to play him is to turtle and try to perform his ridicolous punishes
-strengths: he has the most damaging punishes in the game for wallspat, out of stamina throw and out of stamina parry
Gladiator
-weaknesses: worst reflex guard in the game at 500m despite being the only assassin whith a bloody buckler, super slow chained lights, slow dodge lights; overall a very slow assassin
-strengths: OP zone that can be feinted if whiffed making it unpunisheable

Vikings
Raider
-weaknesses: has no openers or mixups, his soft feint is very reactable and is punished as a light parry, has super slow chains, very high GB vulnerability on heavy and zone startup, doesn't get a regular heavy on GB so he either has to throw or zone risking to go out of stamina, his zone is slow and can be interrupted by any light, has no hyper armour despite being a big man, uses a lot of stamina for everything he does; he is over reliant on his dodge into GB and on turtling
-strengths: stampade charge is a strong ganking tool, his lock-tech zones are quite strong in ganks if they are not interrupted, has the fastest GB in the game at 200ms and is very effective when he dodges into GB
Warlord
-weaknesses: has no soft feints, has no good mixups, has very low damage, uses too much stamina, lacks very basics chains like light-light and heavy-heavy, his full block counter attack can be blocked; he is just a weaker conqueror and shares a lot of the issues that conqueror has
-strengths: has good out of stamina pressure with his unlocked sprint, can easily ledge if he lands a GB
Berserker
-weaknesses: i don't know lol
-strengths: has very high damage, way too mcuh hyper armour expecially for an assassin wearing leather and rags, very good stamina management, borderline unreactable delayed feinted lights, one of the best deflects in the game if not the best, very good out of stamina throw and parry punishes, good range despite having 2 short axes; overall I think he's fine but his hyper armour needs to be removed/reduced and his damage could be nerfed very very sightly
Valkyrie
-weaknesses: low damage, slow sweep, high GB vulnerability on heavy startup, lacks mixups; she's a plain hero and lacks variety and often times is used to light spam which is weak at high level
-strengths: pretty good defense
Highlander
-weaknesses: he's fairly slow in defensive stance
-strengths: probably the best turtle in the game with 400ms dodge recovery in offenisve stance, good option select with the superior lights, exagerrated damage, strong kick into grab soft feint but not invicible, very good range and he has weird hitboxes that allow hits lo land hits so far away that they don't even display right in the guard stance indicators (cannot be done on purpose), very good punishes for small mistakes; overall he is fine but he could use a very very slight nerf to his damage
Shaman
-weaknesses: her bash is somewhat slow but still viable
-strengths: has a lot of i-frames, 50 damange bite that is easy to land and very strong in ganks expecailly if teamed with peacekeeper or nobushi, very strong dodge attacks, has a bash that wallsplats from neutral and a throw that guarantees an attack even without a wall, has good mixups and soft feints; she is a good character but she should not be able to get a bite by throwing an enemy without a wall so overall her throw needs a nerf

Samurai
Kensei
-weaknesses: slow top heavy
-strengths: a lot of i-frames expecially on his dodges, has good soft feints and mixups, great range that is better than lawbringer's even if he's wielding a poleaxe, has hyper amour as a vanguard, great damage, great mobility; overall he's fine but his hitboxes and amount of i-frames could use a very minor nerf
Shugoki
-weaknesses: very slow attacks, no mixups or soft feints, very high GB vulnerability on all he does, takes extra damage when his hyper armour is off effectively making his health pool comparable if not lower to that of assassin's, his embrace is super slow, it doesn't track and doesn't regenerate stamina as shaman's bite, very bad stamina management, poor mobility, the list goes on; overall trash tier hero
-strengths: demon embrace is a guaranteed kill in a gank if he can land it
Orochi
-weaknesses: no openers or hard to react mixups; usually ends up relying of light spam which is very bad at high level
-strengths: good damage
Nobushi
-weaknesses: doesn't have good oponers or any soft feints, slow neutral lights
-strengths: good punishes for light and heavy parries and out of stamina throws, good damage (gets top heavy on GB), hidden stance is a very good defensive tool, good zone, great range and hitboxes (kinda broken actually but she's not very strong overall) she is very good in brawls and currently is probably the best mid lane clearer in the game
Shinobi
-weaknesses: no hate but why does a range hero even exist lol
-strengths: sickle rain is a very strong tool in a gank, very high damage output and parry punishes, quite safe kick
Aramusha
-weaknesses: very predictable soft feints, easily evadeable "mixups", full block stance counter is not guaranteed; overall this hero is useless
-strengths: good damage

Wu-lin
Tiandi
-weaknesses: inconsistent i-frame on dodge attacks
-strengths: 400ms lights, palm strike is quite safe, super safe feintable and soft feintable dodge attacks, his kick is pretty strong in ganks expecially if there's a wall and is unpunisheable; overall very safe hero, makes for a great turtle, strong feats
Jiang-Jun
-weaknesses: he is reactable at high level I guess
-strengths: best feats in the game, great damage, very strong punishes in all scenarios, he is not very heavily armoured but he has hyper armour on several moves, his weak shin kick wallsplats a full grown man lmao and guarantees a top heavy, sifu pose makes his stamina virtually infinite, can soft feint his dodge attacks into 400ms light, very fast unblockables, has uncoordinated animations and hit boxes (it's a bug) check this video at min 4:30 to see it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kiGXWeCLg-o
Nuxia
-weaknesses: trap is useless in 1v1 as you can even emote out of it
-strengths: trap is strong in ganks, very good damage, 400ms light, caltrops is an OP feat as it clears minions, deals a lot of damage over time and can guarantee a revive if you drop it on the body of your team mate and can straight out win fights if for example placed in the middle of the healing zone in breach as it drives the enemy team out of the circle while you can stay inside and heal; she's a very plain hero and often times is played as a light spammer
Shaolin
-weaknesses: can't think of any lol
-strengths: high damage, can feint undogeable dodge attacks, has 400ms lights, very mixup intensive, has both a deflect and crushing counter, has a lot of options in qi stance, his teleportation feat are very annoying and don't belong in the game; overall he has too many options and makes old heroes obsolete

Czarnone
11-11-2018, 10:16 PM
Can a mod move this thread to the "General Discussion" section? I think I've made some valid points and I would like to hear the opinions of other people and mods but this section seems quite dead right now.

Obliged_HL
11-12-2018, 12:54 AM
"-strengths: OP shoulder bash"

Opinion discarded.

Obliged_HL
11-12-2018, 01:07 AM
"Shaolin
-weaknesses: can't think of any lol"

Even further discarded

Eidetik
11-12-2018, 02:39 AM
@Atlas kiss off man. Shaolin is the new Centurion. And this is coming from a Shaolin Player. That hero is so broken its unbelievable right now. He literally counters everything, and hits so fast you can barely react. Its easy mode. Someone boot Atlas from forums pls.

FrozenWritter
11-12-2018, 04:25 AM
No hero should have Hyper Armor if he's not heavy or heavy hybrid, just my unpopular opinion.

Alienjf
11-12-2018, 05:52 PM
hyper armor on assasins is just wrong lazy design sorry dev team.and healing on hits needs to go!

Czarnone
11-12-2018, 10:13 PM
"-strengths: OP shoulder bash"

Opinion discarded.
I guess you haven't fought against any ranked master wardens before. The shoulder bash is overly safe and it's overall a very very strong tool, really quite OP and this is coming from a rep 37 warden.


@Atlas kiss off man. Shaolin is the new Centurion. And this is coming from a Shaolin Player. That hero is so broken its unbelievable right now. He literally counters everything, and hits so fast you can barely react. Its easy mode. Someone boot Atlas from forums pls.
You know what you are talking about. I have nothing against shaolin being strong but his kit is so full of options and it's so well rounded that it's a shame to see how poor the kits of other heroes are in comparison. I wouldn't call for nerfs for him except for his teleportation feats but the level of other heroes must be brought up drastically.


No hero should have Hyper Armor if he's not heavy or heavy hybrid, just my unpopular opinion.
I support this 100% even if I proposed HA for raider since he's so bad. There's no reason to give assassins HA.

hyper armor on assasins is just wrong lazy design sorry dev team.and healing on hits needs to go!
I have nothing against berserker, I've even put him in the "fine as is" section but the ease of access he has to HA is quite disgusting and I would like to see it replaced by some other ability as HA doesn't fit the assassin class at all.

Czarnone
11-13-2018, 09:29 PM
Can I have some feedback from a forum mod? The dev team asked for balancing suggestions and I've put a fair amount of work into my post. I don't expect a mod to read the whole thing but it would be nice if a mod were to foward the post to the team.

Ubiflowessence
11-13-2018, 11:39 PM
Thanks for sharing your feedback! This is well thought out and I'll move this to general discussion. :)

chukblok
11-14-2018, 12:07 AM
Thanks for all the work. I agree with many points.
Warlord and heavies especially.

EvoX.
11-14-2018, 01:42 AM
I have to say, reading all this made me realize just how much more work the balance of this game requires. So many inconsistiencies, so many things that makes zero sense, so many heroes having qualities others should have, so much outdated stuff that's a joke to the current meta of the game, and of course the Wu Lin have none of those.

I guess being priced at 30$, giving them 600ms lights from neutral, no openers, the inability to hard faint at all, and the inability to feint a Zone just isn't a good selling strategy. But the old heroes? They can apparently have those just fine.

Delphaine00
11-14-2018, 01:42 AM
It feels like ubisoft has once again ruined something good out of greed. Since marching fire and the introduction of the new characters, new equipment and arcade mode I dont even enjoy the game anymore. They re did the equipment system specifically so players would need the expansion to keep up with other players that purchased it. The new characters are even more broken than the previous additions to the game. The original characters feel almost useless against the new additions. If I could id get a refund but ubisoft wont allow it. Its like somebody re painting the car you just got to a color you hate then trying to charge you for it. This is whats wrong with gaming today. Pay for a game just to buy a season pass, just to buy an expansion, and if you dont watch your kd drop while you try to play catch up. Its a shame and in any other industry it wouldn't be tolerated.

Blitzwarrior771
11-14-2018, 02:17 AM
i strongly disagree on kensei as fine as is . You want nobushi buff? Lol sure let’s start with removing bleeds first . And shorten his spear to the size of gladiator and Valkyrie weapon .

Knight_Raime
11-14-2018, 03:19 AM
Oof. Big list. Alright. Hopefully I don't hit the character limit:

"-revenge in 1v1 fights should not be enabled; you could cap the revenge gain in 1v1 fights to 50% so that if a third person joins the fight and it becomes a 1v2 then you can gain the ramaining 50% and use your revenge; some heroes rely a lot on moves (bashes, GB, chip damage) that feed a lot of revenge and lose fights because all of the sudden their opponents gets revenge for just turtling up."

Agreed. Not sure if the 50% thing is a good idea. But I deff agree overall. It's really annoying that you're discouraged for using bashes/grabs in a 1v1 because it guarantees the opponent revenge first. I understand why they need to give more revenge than standard attacks. But it shouldn't be a thing in 1v1. that's basically indirectly gimping any kit that uses them.

"CC moves such as stampade charge, sickle rain, shaman's bite should not prevent the victim from using revenge; it's extremely unfair when outnumbered and it doesn't make sense that some moves like lawbringer's long arm does not prevent revenge activations and other moves do"

I would be fine if with giving them the ability to pop revenge. But I don't think it should end the CC. Long arm/impale don't proc the damage reduction on the cced target like most grabs do though. Making them basically instant kills if they land with a coordinated gank.

"flickering attack indicators in ganks need to be fixed aswell as attack indicators changing direction as the opponent moves around you mid attack for instance when performing a dodge attack; external blocking/parrying in ganks often times does not work aswell even if you see your hero perform the block/parry animation"

Yes. Indicators in general need to be fixed.

"ledge magnetism should be fixed and you shouldn't be able to do an insta-kill jump attack from a height of 1,5m in maps like beach head for instance."

Sure.

"bots need improvements because right now they react to everything you do but at the same time they are very unaware of their surroundings and can easily be killed by turtling or ganking them as they focus only one player at one time; also some of them do the correct max punishes for their hero some just do not even come close"

Yes AI behavior is a mess in general.

"unlock roll is still extremely strong even after its nerf so increasing the GB vulnerability window on startup by an extra 100ms or so would make sense; in ranked 1v1 matches there's also the problem of kiting and running around to not run out of stamina and use unlocked attacks; a possible fix would be to disable unlocking in 1v1 ranked matches."

Disagree. It's situationally good now as compared to the catch all it used to be. It's fine for now. And unlock play is some what an issue. It should be addressed on the individual kits. not a clunky blanket fix like you propose.

"as of now assassin's have like 10 hp less than vanguards (not even a light attack worth of difference), they have higher running speed, higher attack speed, on average more damage output, deflect that can reward them even for an accitendal dodge, faster revenge gain, better dodges, they just outshine other classes in every single shape or form."

There are currently only two assassins that are S tier anywhere. Assassins are not the best. Nor a problem. Heavies are the ones that need addressing to be made better. Vanguards/hybrids are fine.

"heavy heroes have too low damage and not enough hyper armour"

Damage isn't their main problem. and HA would not solve all of their kits issues.

"MENUS, UI and HUD"

More or less agree with everything in this section.

"HEROES"

I disagree about warden, warlord, raider, valk, and Nuxia needing reworks. Agree with the buff list. Highlander, Jiang-jun, and shinobi are not fine to be left alone.

"Warden"

His sword play is average. Side heavies on gb, top heavy on a full charge bash or wall splat which happens reasonably often, all light openers are a decent speed. And there is reason to use both side lights and top light. Zone is a good option select and can chain into heavies for semi mind games. Etc. Bash is also not OP. Warden has to make almost as many reads as his opponent does. And each level of bash (uncharged, semi charged, full charged) has it's strengths and counters.

"Conqueror"

Yeah conq has basically no offense but completely makes up for it because of how good he is defensively. His varied forward bash isn't OP. As half the cast can punish it on reaction and those who can't can punish on prediction with a GB. The issue is that it is his only viable offense. So it over shadows the rest of his kit. Which is poor design.

"Peacekeeper"

Mostly agree.

"Lawbringer"

Yeah no offense. The tools for a good kit already exist in him though. The devs just don't see it.

"Centurion"

Running theme. No offense what so ever. But incredibly strong defensively.

"Gladiator"

His heavies and toe stab are actually decent. Heavies have deceptive range for spacing and toe stab will always catch someone on early dodge if you feint into it. But yeah most of his kit is bad. His zone is perfectly punishable even before they added the 100ms vulnerability. the issue with it is not every hero can punish it.

"Raider"

Actually his soft feint is pretty good considering the huge window of variance on when you can soft feint it. The real issue with his soft feint is that you can attack/gb him out of it rather easily.
Dodge into GB should be removed for him because its absurd. But only when he gets buffs to his kit. it's a solid kit overall if not a little too basic. More combos would help him as well.

"Warlord"

Warlord's kit like raiders is a decent base just needing some polish. Also like raider more combos would be beneficial. His crashing charge mix up should be slightly nerfed though.

"Berserker"

His HA is fine and his overall range is his main weakness. He doesn't have any solid gap closer moves. Heros like valk and nobushi have the range to just poke him constantly.

"Valkyrie"

Not much is needed to make Valk perfect. Better tracking on heavy finishers, delay window back on sweep, able to knock down OOS people with shield tackle, being able to dodge attack out of shield tackle. Damage numbers could be tweaked as well. And her zone should probably be a bit faster.

"Highlander"

Highlander is a mess. He does too much damage too easily in offensive form. Offensive form is actually better at playing defensively than being offensive. He has access to tech that actually makes him broken. Defensive form is useless outside of random trades people should see a mile away and parrying/cc.

"Shaman"

I'd much rather only her bleed enable her bite. And revenge should be able to be procced while on you. That way you can live from the optimal setup of a heavy or two plus her bite.

"Kensei"

His hitboxes and I frames are fine. Kensei's pommel isn't a good enough opener on it's own. His neutral side lights and natures wrath are garbage. Beyond that the rest of his kit is fine. He's not bad but he's not good. He's just decent.

"Shugoki"

No offense. Stupidly easy and heavily rewarding mechanic of passive armor. DE is hard to use and stupidly strong when he's critical. Slowest character in the game attack speed and movement speed wise. Slowest recovery overall on all of his moves. A real **** show of hero design.

"Orochi"

Orochi's kit is decent in 1v1. Storm rush is an alright opener. Brings nothing to the table and can't really do anything in a team fight/gank situation.

"Nobushi"

No offense. Most of the kit is useless outside her openers, hidden stance, and her situational punishes after hidden stance. Her defensive play should get nerfed in favor of actually having some kind of offense. Also she can use hidden stance to soft feint light and heavy openers.

"Shinobi"

If Shugoki didn't exist Shinobi would be the worst designed hero. Most of his kit is a dumpster fire. He can control the fight entirely from start to finish. If shinobi doesn't want to fight he doesn't have to. Slide tackle unlock games are borderline unpunishable. And only 3 heros in the game can exert any kind of pressure on him.

"Aramusha"

Doesn't have an offense and entirely relies on the enemy to mess up and fall for his blade blockade where half his kit is. Problem is BB is far too punishable and almost nothing from BB is worth the risk. His infinite combo was fine before they nerfed it. Some of if not all of the changes made to it should be reverted. Especially the 200ms inbetween each hit and the damage buffs.

"Tiandi"

Probably the best designed hero in the game next to Shaolin. He only falls apart against heros who are good at defending since it makes it harder for him to access his 400ms lights.

"Jiang-Jun"

Confusing buggy mess. Has no offense for 1v1's. Sifu is incredibly risky to use. But his aoe and feats carry him in 4's.

"Nuxia"

Practically perfect and my personal new favorite hero. If her zone was more usable, traps had less whiff recovery (forcing only properly timed 500ms or faster attacks to beat it,) and had the ability to access her heavy finisher easier she'd be perfect. It's a shame that outside caltrops her feats are actually awful.

"Shaolin"

His weakness is bash based offense. And heros who are strong defensively. As blocking top as a standard guard hero shuts him out completely from qi. Back whiffing into light takes you out of kick range and back whiffing heavy wouldn't but it's an 800ms attack so very easy to see coming and punish. Feinting out of qi doesn't work against bashes since you take 500ms to be able to do anything that isn't blocking. None of his moves in qi are fast enough to respond to a good bash beyond his top light and kick. But kick requires you to be in their face and qiing in the face of a good basher is bad bad bad. Top light is option selected by most defensive heros. He also has very low variable windows on feinting outside his normal heavies and his dash heavy. meaning everything he does with qi is on read. And he is weak defensively in qi due to no dodge attack, no ability to parry, and can't CGB while in it.

papa_joseph1
11-14-2018, 08:36 AM
I agree with most everything stated here, but this list hurts my head when you bring so much into the light, more then half the cast is in serious need of rework.
I just want Law Bringer to feel threatening again, because right now, my 8 foot tall space marine sized warrior in full plate armor with the longest weapon in the game.....is just free reknown for a good chunk of the other heroes, i have had to resort to learning Conq whilst i wait for LB to get fixed

He needs the rework the most to be honest [Maybe Goki needs it a bit more], a good one would be to make his unblockable work correctly, you should not be able to side step his axe at the end of his shove combo, it freaking clips though hero models when they do it anyways, but god forbid Law Bringer have any advantage besides impale.

There is so much cool stuff they can do with Law Bringer's gear, in real life the Pole Axe has so many treaties on it's use and interesting moves, they would not have to look far.....and come on Ubi, in the cinematic you made you mentioned his armor has no equal and it's a secret of his order on how to make it......yet he has less HA then a guy wearing no armor.

p0wn3rki11
11-14-2018, 01:21 PM
My only disagreements with you are on a few things with conq: Shield uppercut =/= shield bash, you mentioned that from neutral it does not wall splat and i think you may have meant the dodge bash as i wall splat plenty with the shield uppercut (heavy fient into bash) But if i may add, it has this odd tendency to SOMETIMES throw your opponent further and it is so inconsistent that after 12 and a half reps into the guy i have no fecking clue what causes it. The other thing is i don't know who you fight, but doesn't the superior block heavy get unblockable because the enemy COULD block it at one point? Doesn't matter, when trying to land it, it overlaps so much with parry timing you will just parry them 9 times out of 10. Other than that though, I agree with a lot of what you say, ESPECIALLY SHUGOKIS NEEDED MASSIVE REWORK WHICH WE WERE PROMISED NEARLY HALF A YEAR AGO UBISOFT. Now that is out of my system...this was a well thought out post, really a lot of work was put into this FANTASTIC formatting btw. And it makes me glad a lot of the things i have noticed you noticed too so i know i am not going crazy when i wiff a JJ heavy for the umpteenth time in a gank because the indicator came up halfway through his animation. There is almost nothing i disagree on with you in this, well written, nicely done and I hope that the devs see this.

marcosouza50
11-14-2018, 06:16 PM
I'm glad that the developers decided to talk about this, I'll put some regulatory points that in my opinion can improve the overall game.

please, what I am going to write is not even the absolute truth, so feel free to modify, disagree or agree with my ideas: these points are not reworking are regulations to make the game clean.

1-the hybrid classes must be extinct, we can not have heroes that carry the best of two different classes, or if they are not extinct they must have the characteristic means of each of the classes since they are hybrids we are fighting two classes in

hero this makes the game confusing, the hybrid heroes that already exist can be embedded in the existing classes.

2- Avoidance with blows should only be used by pure non-hybrid assassins, and this blow after the lateral dodge has to be a light blow I say this to - kensei, valkiria and wu lin

Kensei is a vanquardeiro that uses the lateral elbow followed by heavy blow and a little too much considering the high damage of the hero, never played a match that did not have a kensei amenos this shows that this hero stands above the others.

3- No opponent should be overthrown if he still has resistance say this to - centurion, valkyrie, shaman, shugoki, nuxia, tiandi and lawbringer. Take down an opponent in a match of invasion or tribute domain and practically a death sentence.

4 - All teleportation moves should be completely removed from the game I say this to - shaolin, shinobi. These movements, besides being unrealistic for the game's theme, bring great frustrations, especially in fights with more than one opponent.

5- soft feats I consider the ability to cancel a blow in one direction in another direction in another direction and should be withdrawn from the game all the heroes will have to use the feint canceling their blows, soft feints are a disparity factor for the game. if they are not removed let all the heroes have this ability, I say this to - kensei, shaman, beserker pacifier, aramusha and wu lin at the moment just remember these!

6- fast luzes of 400ms in sequence should change to 450ms only in first light example first light 450ms second light 550ms and third light 650ms say this to - orochi, aramusha,

This would somewhat improve the issue of console players who receive only 30fps will no longer need to guess when a light will be thrown at him. another alternative to fast punch sequences could reduce damage to 5 so a full sequence would only give 15 damage the player will have to use other techniques to win, he can still win using only fast blows but the risk will be much higher.

7 - all heroes of the same class should have speed defense and equal forces say this to - gladiator

The gladiator's defense is so weak that even veteran players do not get any consistent defense.

8- this system of advantages and simply neutral does not stimulate me to seek a perfect match because it is not very useful for my game the statistics system only needed small adjustments and it was stimulating many of the players who always played honor had this as characteristic very important in the game.

9-super armor has to be the privilege of the heavy ones, I say this for centurião beserker e kensei.

There is something wrong when a reflex defense finds a super armor that has to be dealt with was very confused when I apply a reflex guard and it does not happen as expected.

10- I am not able to dodge the wu lin their blows mainly shaolin chase me even using the correct dodge time them, they are too fast jj speed and unreal for a heavy.

I'm sorry if I'm being arrogant but I believe that balancing any game should take into account the average audience that should represent the vast majority, professional players will get the best of the game anyway they live for it in the players means that we play to have fun and compete in an average pattern we will not be able to reach and fight at this level of balancing that is done today.

Thank you all for reading

These are my initial thoughts, sorry for bad English.

Czarnone
11-14-2018, 08:05 PM
I have to say, reading all this made me realize just how much more work the balance of this game requires. So many inconsistiencies, so many things that makes zero sense, so many heroes having qualities others should have, so much outdated stuff that's a joke to the current meta of the game, and of course the Wu Lin have none of those.

I guess being priced at 30$, giving them 600ms lights from neutral, no openers, the inability to hard faint at all, and the inability to feint a Zone just isn't a good selling strategy. But the old heroes? They can apparently have those just fine.
The thing is I don't have a problem with the wu-lins being good: I believe that the problem is how far behind most of the old heroes are.


It feels like ubisoft has once again ruined something good out of greed. Since marching fire and the introduction of the new characters, new equipment and arcade mode I dont even enjoy the game anymore. They re did the equipment system specifically so players would need the expansion to keep up with other players that purchased it. The new characters are even more broken than the previous additions to the game. The original characters feel almost useless against the new additions. If I could id get a refund but ubisoft wont allow it. Its like somebody re painting the car you just got to a color you hate then trying to charge you for it. This is whats wrong with gaming today. Pay for a game just to buy a season pass, just to buy an expansion, and if you dont watch your kd drop while you try to play catch up. Its a shame and in any other industry it wouldn't be tolerated.
The thing is that none of these issues is unfixable. It could all be improved if they started patching the game with a consistent schedule.


i strongly disagree on kensei as fine as is . You want nobushi buff? Lol sure let’s start with removing bleeds first . And shorten his spear to the size of gladiator and Valkyrie weapon .
Nobushi is generally regarded as good in brawls and in dominion as a mid lane clearer but average at best in 1v1. I don't think she should be at the top of the priority list but like any another hero in the game she could use some changes.


I agree with most everything stated here, but this list hurts my head when you bring so much into the light, more then half the cast is in serious need of rework.
I just want Law Bringer to feel threatening again, because right now, my 8 foot tall space marine sized warrior in full plate armor with the longest weapon in the game.....is just free reknown for a good chunk of the other heroes, i have had to resort to learning Conq whilst i wait for LB to get fixed

He needs the rework the most to be honest [Maybe Goki needs it a bit more], a good one would be to make his unblockable work correctly, you should not be able to side step his axe at the end of his shove combo, it freaking clips though hero models when they do it anyways, but god forbid Law Bringer have any advantage besides impale.

There is so much cool stuff they can do with Law Bringer's gear, in real life the Pole Axe has so many treaties on it's use and interesting moves, they would not have to look far.....and come on Ubi, in the cinematic you made you mentioned his armor has no equal and it's a secret of his order on how to make it......yet he has less HA then a guy wearing no armor.
Yea it's a shame to see such an interesting hero not being able to perform. As far as the priority goes it's pretty obvious that focusing on 1 or 2 heroes at a time is not a good strategy as it is way too slow and by the time all heroes are reworked those who have been reworked first are going to be obsolete. I don't know why they don't invest more into hero balance: it's the biggest hold back this game is facing right now and I cannot imagine it helping their sales.


My only disagreements with you are on a few things with conq: Shield uppercut =/= shield bash, you mentioned that from neutral it does not wall splat and i think you may have meant the dodge bash as i wall splat plenty with the shield uppercut (heavy fient into bash) But if i may add, it has this odd tendency to SOMETIMES throw your opponent further and it is so inconsistent that after 12 and a half reps into the guy i have no fecking clue what causes it. The other thing is i don't know who you fight, but doesn't the superior block heavy get unblockable because the enemy COULD block it at one point? Doesn't matter, when trying to land it, it overlaps so much with parry timing you will just parry them 9 times out of 10. Other than that though, I agree with a lot of what you say, ESPECIALLY SHUGOKIS NEEDED MASSIVE REWORK WHICH WE WERE PROMISED NEARLY HALF A YEAR AGO UBISOFT. Now that is out of my system...this was a well thought out post, really a lot of work was put into this FANTASTIC formatting btw. And it makes me glad a lot of the things i have noticed you noticed too so i know i am not going crazy when i wiff a JJ heavy for the umpteenth time in a gank because the indicator came up halfway through his animation. There is almost nothing i disagree on with you in this, well written, nicely done and I hope that the devs see this.
Thanks for the feedback! I may have worded the conq part wrong I'm not sure but as a rep 38 conq I can tell you that a neutral heavy soft feinted into a sb does not wallsplat and if it whiffs it cannot chain right into another attack and it guarantees a guardbreak for the opponent who dodges the bash. In the other hand if you land a heavy and you chain a shield bash, that bash does wallspalt and it can even be chained into another attack even if it whiffs. I believe the first move is called a shield uppercut and the second is the shield bash mixup. You can test it in the training arena and it should work the way I said unless they changed it overnight lol. Anyways let's hope the devs start balancing the game asap.


I'm glad that the developers decided to talk about this, I'll put some regulatory points that in my opinion can improve the overall game.

please, what I am going to write is not even the absolute truth, so feel free to modify, disagree or agree with my ideas: these points are not reworking are regulations to make the game clean.

1-the hybrid classes must be extinct, we can not have heroes that carry the best of two different classes, or if they are not extinct they must have the characteristic means of each of the classes since they are hybrids we are fighting two classes in

hero this makes the game confusing, the hybrid heroes that already exist can be embedded in the existing classes.

2- Avoidance with blows should only be used by pure non-hybrid assassins, and this blow after the lateral dodge has to be a light blow I say this to - kensei, valkiria and wu lin

Kensei is a vanquardeiro that uses the lateral elbow followed by heavy blow and a little too much considering the high damage of the hero, never played a match that did not have a kensei amenos this shows that this hero stands above the others.

3- No opponent should be overthrown if he still has resistance say this to - centurion, valkyrie, shaman, shugoki, nuxia, tiandi and lawbringer. Take down an opponent in a match of invasion or tribute domain and practically a death sentence.

4 - All teleportation moves should be completely removed from the game I say this to - shaolin, shinobi. These movements, besides being unrealistic for the game's theme, bring great frustrations, especially in fights with more than one opponent.

5- soft feats I consider the ability to cancel a blow in one direction in another direction in another direction and should be withdrawn from the game all the heroes will have to use the feint canceling their blows, soft feints are a disparity factor for the game. if they are not removed let all the heroes have this ability, I say this to - kensei, shaman, beserker pacifier, aramusha and wu lin at the moment just remember these!

6- fast luzes of 400ms in sequence should change to 450ms only in first light example first light 450ms second light 550ms and third light 650ms say this to - orochi, aramusha,

This would somewhat improve the issue of console players who receive only 30fps will no longer need to guess when a light will be thrown at him. another alternative to fast punch sequences could reduce damage to 5 so a full sequence would only give 15 damage the player will have to use other techniques to win, he can still win using only fast blows but the risk will be much higher.

7 - all heroes of the same class should have speed defense and equal forces say this to - gladiator

The gladiator's defense is so weak that even veteran players do not get any consistent defense.

8- this system of advantages and simply neutral does not stimulate me to seek a perfect match because it is not very useful for my game the statistics system only needed small adjustments and it was stimulating many of the players who always played honor had this as characteristic very important in the game.

9-super armor has to be the privilege of the heavy ones, I say this for centurião beserker e kensei.

There is something wrong when a reflex defense finds a super armor that has to be dealt with was very confused when I apply a reflex guard and it does not happen as expected.

10- I am not able to dodge the wu lin their blows mainly shaolin chase me even using the correct dodge time them, they are too fast jj speed and unreal for a heavy.

I'm sorry if I'm being arrogant but I believe that balancing any game should take into account the average audience that should represent the vast majority, professional players will get the best of the game anyway they live for it in the players means that we play to have fun and compete in an average pattern we will not be able to reach and fight at this level of balancing that is done today.

Thank you all for reading

These are my initial thoughts, sorry for bad English.
Thanks for your feedback. I can't say I agree with all you wrote expecially about the removal of soft feints but it's nice to read everyone's opinion on the current state of the game. One thing we can definely agree on is that there should be no teleportation feats in the game lol.

Czarnone
11-14-2018, 08:11 PM
Oof. Big list. Alright. Hopefully I don't hit the character limit: [...]
Thank very much for your extensive answer. I can see we agree on a lot of subjects. Hopefully we can get some more answers like yours and most importantly let's hope that the devs actually see threads like this one bacause it sure seems like the players have a lot to say and are willing to help identifying the main problems of the game. It may be that not everyone agrees on everything but the main goal of these threads is not to give definitive answers but to bring problems to light.

Knight_Raime
11-14-2018, 09:01 PM
Thank very much for your extensive answer. I can see we agree on a lot of subjects. Hopefully we can get some more answers like yours and most importantly let's hope that the devs actually see threads like this one bacause it sure seems like the players have a lot to say and are willing to help identifying the main problems of the game. It may be that not everyone agrees on everything but the main goal of these threads is not to give definitive answers but to bring problems to light.

I think the mods here do a good job forwarding information to the devs. I think the real issue is that the feedback is so varied and the devs own view on the game differing from both the casual and competitive crowd. They might be able to understand our complaints to some degree but their responses/changes almost never exactly line up with the issues they decide to discuss. Which just gives the impression that either we were not clear enough (possible but I doubt) or the devs don't actually grasp the issue entirely.

Czarnone
11-14-2018, 10:39 PM
I think the mods here do a good job forwarding information to the devs. I think the real issue is that the feedback is so varied and the devs own view on the game differing from both the casual and competitive crowd. They might be able to understand our complaints to some degree but their responses/changes almost never exactly line up with the issues they decide to discuss. Which just gives the impression that either we were not clear enough (possible but I doubt) or the devs don't actually grasp the issue entirely.
I think you're right. I have no problem with the work of the mods of this forum, they are quite active actually. The issue is that, regardless of their opinion, players have been talking about the same problematic subjects since forever at this point but the dev team has made no changes that appeal to casuals or competitive players: they have not been implementing any changes at all.
I felt compelled to give my feedback now that the team "officially" requested suggestions but at this point I'm not expecting them to do anything to be honest.

Knight_Raime
11-14-2018, 10:46 PM
I think you're right. I have no problem with the work of the mods of this forum, they are quite active actually. The issue is that, regardless of their opinion, players have been talking about the same problematic subjects since forever at this point but the dev team has made no changes that appeal to casuals or competitive players: they have not been implementing any changes at all.
I felt compelled to give my feedback now that the team "officially" requested suggestions but at this point I'm not expecting them to do anything to be honest.

Yeah I actually just made a thread about the divided community and the devs biggest issue. It's very much why things are the way they are. Despite how good marching fire was for the game it's still more or less not a better game overall. And while some changes made might move us in that direction it's never going to get there if things stay as is.

Illyrian_King
11-15-2018, 12:36 AM
All in all the OP has made a good point, but talking about Lawbringer and other heavy heroes he just proposed the basic stuff to fix them.

Hyperarmour is logic, needed and fine but the rest is just unblockables, faster attacks and soft-feints (which are basically faster attacks) ... instead of new stuff like unparriable heavies to allow them attacking and still remaining slow, to fit their heavy role.

This game would be "fixed", but not fun, if all heroes just got the same shiit.

Weaknesses are pointed out well, but the suggested improvments aren't dope at all, speaking about heavies.

Czarnone
11-15-2018, 12:45 AM
The goal of my thread was mainly to identify problems and inconsistencies within the game and I've suggested some possible fixes here and there but I didn't really go in depth since the post was going to be too long. I encourage everyone ITT to share their ideas so speak up your mind if you have any!

Illyrian_King
11-15-2018, 12:52 AM
The goal of my thread was mainly to identify problems and inconsistencies within the game and I've suggested some possible fixes here and there but I didn't really go in depth since the post was going to be too long. I encourage everyone ITT to share their ideas so speak up your mind if you have any!

As I said, you pointed the problems out pretty well and also that health buff for heavies is legit. I proposed it often myself.

What I fear about potential heavy reworks is that they might get fixed with faster bashes and soft-feints.

The difference between assassins and heavies should not just be if the 400ms light comes directly or guaranteed after a bash.

New ways (talking about unparriable attacks for Lawbringer, Shugoki and Raider) have to come. Allowing to profit a good portion from chip damage would open new ways of playing. Their heavy attacks are slow and parrying them is no challenge at all. So heavy heroes simply don't throw them out, which is ridiculous, because sheer outforcing is a valid strategy.

Lord_Cherubi
11-15-2018, 05:18 AM
I think this is overall pretty damn accurate, nice post!

Czarnone
11-16-2018, 12:20 AM
As I said, you pointed the problems out pretty well and also that health buff for heavies is legit. I proposed it often myself.

What I fear about potential heavy reworks is that they might get fixed with faster bashes and soft-feints.

The difference between assassins and heavies should not just be if the 400ms light comes directly or guaranteed after a bash.

New ways (talking about unparriable attacks for Lawbringer, Shugoki and Raider) have to come. Allowing to profit a good portion from chip damage would open new ways of playing. Their heavy attacks are slow and parrying them is no challenge at all. So heavy heroes simply don't throw them out, which is ridiculous, because sheer outforcing is a valid strategy.

Lmao they said they are not gonna implement any changes before 2019, I'll just let this thread die at this point.