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View Full Version : Quantity vs Quality



Jazz117Volkov
11-10-2018, 12:22 PM
I've remarked before that I think too much of this game's development focuses on new content and not enough attention is paid to existing content. Having sat with Marching Fire for a while, I don't think the game was ready for it. There's too much about the new heroes that feels off, and if I had to attribute it to anything, I would say it's because this game still hasn't found its identity insofar as the gameplay meta. It's like there are different schools of thought regarding how the game is best played and no one seems to know the answer, turtle, spam, deathball, etc. There's a lot of things getting thrown around and as always, the person who can make their point sound more clever is considered correct, not necessarily the one who has the better point.

Nevertheless, to clarify what I mean about the Wu Lin feeling off. It's a number of things; when they first launch I felt that they went heavily against the grain of the other heroes; the rock, paper, scissors dynamic that was barely balancing has shifted completely into imbalance, and I maintain that opinion. Some of them are little things, like Valkyrie's side dash strike being blocked by JJ, similar to how Conq and Cent can recovery and block PK dodge attacks (there are many more of these instances but I'm only listing the ones that I've personally experience), and my issue with these things are two fold. A) I can't tell if it's intentional or an oversight, B) these match-up specific quirks only benefit one of the heroes and it bottlenecks the other's viability. If a hero, or heroes, hard counter your kit's moves then your victory depends more heavily on parrying, Tiandi vs Warden is a good example of this.

There's a long list of issues pending, some smaller, some vital. Certain hero updates, the currently bugged AI, and zone attack input. Zone attack input...how that hasn't been fixed yet is a mystery to me. It's so vital to the game, yet it's been left in such a poor state. Existing hero viability and existing mechanics (like zone attack), in my mind, should have priority over introducing more heroes, with more move sets, with more problems.

Centurion has the potential to kill any hero from a single mix-up (he's otherwise pretty garbage).
Peace keeper is broken and runs counter to the game's incentive loop.
Shugoki and Lawbringer can't initiate.
Zone attack input is still broken.
The stamina system is breaking the game's back in 4v4; and it's one of the main anti-aggression offenders.

And on top of that Ubisoft pours 4 new heroes, each with a core trait that betrays the game's existing flow, and Nuxia is basically a test-dummy for a QTE style punish that works against every defensive instinct player's have developed. 400 ms attacks is not a good idea. Giving heroes unfairly punishing combos, like Cent, Shaman, Nuxia, are not good ideas. Arcade mode is a disaster; $30 for a slap in the face.

I've put this game down for a while before because I couldn't see it improving, but somehow the devs with all their charm drew me back in and I've stuck around. Probably doens't help that the player experience is geared around the addictive drip-feed of steel. They should do a den episode with their "player engagement specialists", or is that a little too real?

Whatever the case, the game feel different after Marching Fire. I don't think I can convey how disappointing Arcade is. The wasted potential and abysmal product we ended up with are far more frustrating than the mode itself, which is, to say the least, a frustrating mess. I'm just out of optimism I suppose. Pumping more stuff into the game has priority over improving the stuff that is already in the game.

Wookiescantfly
11-10-2018, 05:43 PM
I pretty much share the same sentiment; it's why I'm trying to push to have the devs pull an Operation Health style fix for For Honor and for them to start playtesting everything they want to push out to the main game.

MuscleTech12018
11-10-2018, 07:05 PM
this game just needs better developers. This ones clearly are not professional enough. Just shift some guys from other games here, you'll see, this is going to be much better.

UbiInsulin
11-10-2018, 08:17 PM
Appreciate the post, JazzVolkov. Given that Eric just asked for questions pertaining to specific heroes/moves, which ones would you most like to ask about if you had to draw the team's focus somewhere?

Blitzwarrior771
11-10-2018, 09:23 PM
I hope they release another faction and more heroes in 3-6 months . And more new content . Dominion is dull and boring breach is amazing . Oh yeah and give new faction territory 😍

AzureSky.
11-10-2018, 10:38 PM
Ubilnsulin I think (as a old player that likes data and understanding games, also play vs top 100 of my region) that the team should implement "frames" to this game, frames are the thing that makes balance stable in other games, since even if you have a move that looks really spammeable and powerful, it has some negatives when the opponent block it (for example in tekken it would be a free juggle, that means a lot of damage if they know the inputs) here the team could do the same and erase the 3 types of reactions based on hit or block they currently have (if im not mistaking they were 3) that's not nearly enough for a fighting game, they need to implement personal postive frames and negatives on each character move, based on if the opponent got hit, blocked the hit or (optional) got a counter (this could really help assasins and really make the counter attacking archetype a reality)

Also a big plus of this changes would be that low level players wouldn't be affected by it, but it would balance a lot more high level play, right now understanding how the game works is really easy, i literally know every character move advantage and what beats it, how to play vs it based on my pick, etc But this is not enough for a fighting game, it's too little.

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 01:44 AM
"A) I can't tell if it's intentional or an oversight, B) these match-up specific quirks only benefit one of the heroes and it bottlenecks the other's viability. If a hero, or heroes, hard counter your kit's moves then your victory depends more heavily on parrying, Tiandi vs Warden is a good example of this."

Hard counters are fine and exist in other fighting games. The nature of a hard counter isn't a problem. Its how it's done that would be the thing in question. To my knowledge there are not many hard counters in the game. I personally only know of 3-4.

"Centurion has the potential to kill any hero from a single mix-up."

His fully charged heavy combo does 65 damage? Hardly a kill. But I agree his design is poor.

"Peace keeper is broken and runs counter to the game's incentive loop."

Clarify.

"The stamina system is breaking the game's back in 4v4; and it's one of the main anti-aggression offenders."

I'll have to disagree. Sure there are some heros who struggle with stamina management like Nobushi, but she's always had this issue. I think it's less that the stamina system is broken and more that people just got comfortable with playing poorly in 4's. Now people actually have to pay attention to their stamina.

"And on top of that Ubisoft pours 4 new heroes, each with a core trait that betrays the game's existing flow, and Nuxia is basically a test-dummy for a QTE style punish that works against every defensive instinct player's have developed. 400 ms attacks is not a good idea. Giving heroes unfairly punishing combos, like Cent, Shaman, Nuxia, are not good ideas. Arcade mode is a disaster; $30 for a slap in the face."

Barring Nuxia the only thing brought to the table that didn't already exist in the game in some forum was the ability to feint a dodge attack. And if we want to be technical that already existed through wardens shoulder bash. But I find it a bit funny that you're basically stating that it's bad for them that bring things in that force people to learn how to deal with something new. Regardless of how well Nuxia's traps do or don't work it forces people to be proactive in a fight rather than reactive. Standing around and blocking is not good enough against her. This is a good thing. The rest of the wu-lin show what kind of bones are needed to make a good kit. And the rest of the current roster barring a few should learn from that. Centurion is the only one you named that is actually poorly designed. And arcade mode is mostly good. The only failure with it is AI behavior. Which admittingly is a big deal. But it's a decent alternative for pve players. the random perks keeps things interesting. and it offers comparable rewards to pvp. Not to mention it makes orders a joke.

"Pumping more stuff into the game has priority over improving the stuff that is already in the game."

While I can 100% agree they can do a lot better in terms of actual fixing of the game and it's many issues. And while I can agree they can and should be doing it in a more timely manner I think it's false to say new content takes priority. They did take several months off of adding in big content to try and fix issues about the game. Mainly hero balancing. This isn't to say they did an amazing job at it. But they did try. I would hardly count the drip feed of emotes, executions, and battle outfits to be big enough to take priority over working on the game. So yes. They can absolutely be doing better. But I disagree about them being more focused on adding content in over working on the game.

Jazz117Volkov
11-11-2018, 02:54 AM
Hard counters are fine and exist in other fighting games. The nature of a hard counter isn't a problem. Its how it's done that would be the thing in question. To my knowledge there are not many hard counters in the game. I personally only know of 3-4.I'm not going to agree that they're fine, I think they can be acceptable, but I'm talking more about certain heroes having recovery times that deny certain counter attacks, like Centurion and Peacekeeper, or JJ and Valk, and Gladiator is often block too. It just forces the game back to the parry mechanic. These heroes have counter attacking moves that should work as viable substitutes to parrying, but they don't, parrying is still the pivot point.


His fully charged heavy combo does 65 damage? Hardly a kill. But I agree his design is poor.
I'm not talking about his pin combo. Most people play 4v4, and all you need is haymaker and a parry. Heavy (25 dmg) heavy cancel into guardbreak (if this isn't countered, you win), bash their head x2 (20 dmg), throw into the wall (10 dmg), pin (30 dmg), punch (10 dmg), pounce (35 dmg). That's a total of 130 damage. The guaranteed version is to dodge and gaurdbreak their recovery, which is 105 damage.


Clarify.
Peacekeeper relies on bleed damage. Bleeding out is slow and informs your opponent when they need to turtle to deny an execution. The bleed-out may often deny an execution anyway. On top of that, her stamina consumption is through the roof; one of her "hero tactics" actually puts her OOS, and she's listed as a counter attacker yet various heroes can recover and block her only counter attack. The kit is a mess of several standalone moves that have insane stamina cost and no chemistry. Peacekeepers have to work twice as hard to get to the same place as everyone else, and their executions (health regen) is RNG at best.


I'll have to disagree. Sure there are some heros who struggle with stamina management like Nobushi, but she's always had this issue. I think it's less that the stamina system is broken and more that people just got comfortable with playing poorly in 4's. Now people actually have to pay attention to their stamina.[Shugoki is worse off than Nobushi due to having to spend more to get anywhere. Nevertheless, I disagree, I've always held the opinion that stamina in this game punishes aggression too much, the removal of gear stats has just put a magnifying glass on that issue. The values need to be checked and aggressors need a way to recovery stamina.


Barring Nuxia the only thing brought to the table that didn't already exist in the game in some forum was the ability to feint a dodge attack. And if we want to be technical that already existed through wardens shoulder bash. But I find it a bit funny that you're basically stating that it's bad for them that bring things in that force people to learn how to deal with something new. It's not dealing with something new that I take issue with, claiming as much is simply misreading my complaint, and I won't make a habit of responding to it. My issue is with the way a lot of these new moves shut down other heroes options. For example, Tiandi has easy access to a bash and an undodgable which effectively bottlenecks their opponents options: parry. Parrying is way overburdened in this game because too often other options just aren't viable. The Wu Lin are designed in a way that just puts more pressure on parrying. Except for Nuxia, who literally punishes it. She's a real bunch of fun with external block.


And arcade mode is mostly good. The only failure with it is AI behavior. Which admittingly is a big deal. But it's a decent alternative for pve players. the random perks keeps things interesting. and it offers comparable rewards to pvp. Not to mention it makes orders a joke.No, Arcade is a joke. I've played good PvE modes in a lot of games, this is not one of them. And it's not because of the difficulty, only a handful of fights are actually difficult, and usually due to an a ridiculous modifier. I say this mode is garbage because it's a poorly conceived mess of load screens and 1v1 nonsense. For Honor has the foundation for half a dozen brilliant PvE modes. If it was free I would be more understanding but it cost half the price of a full game. It's nothing shy of an insult.


While I can 100% agree they can do a lot better in terms of actual fixing of the game and it's many issues. And while I can agree they can and should be doing it in a more timely manner I think it's false to say new content takes priority. I may be wrong in making that assumption, yes, but early in the game's life, and just now with Marching Fire, we got a bunch of new content laid on top of some pretty serious problems. The last time this happened the game almost died. We're not looking at the same situation here but we are looking at an even slower schedule for the hero updates and bug fixesbecause there's now more heroes and more things with bugs.

Jazz117Volkov
11-11-2018, 03:10 AM
Appreciate the post, JazzVolkov. Given that Eric just asked for questions pertaining to specific heroes/moves, which ones would you most like to ask about if you had to draw the team's focus somewhere?
I think parry alternatives need to be consistently viable and stamina cost needs to be looked at across the board. If we look at Kensei's swift strike, that is a good parry alternative because it chains into his best move and grants an execution. It's actually better than parrying if your opponent throws a heavy. A result of this is Kensei's parry a lot less than other heroes. It's one of the reasons Gladiator doesn't climb very high in the charts, because that kit's dodge attack is really easy to deal with, similar to Peacekeeper. Hers is morbidly low damage and multiple heroes can recover fast enough to block it. There needs to be better consistency with what type of attacks work in different situations.

Knight_Raime
11-11-2018, 08:29 PM
"I'm not going to agree that they're fine, I think they can be acceptable, but I'm talking more about certain heroes having recovery times that deny certain counter attacks, like Centurion and Peacekeeper, or JJ and Valk, and Gladiator is often block too. It just forces the game back to the parry mechanic. These heroes have counter attacking moves that should work as viable substitutes to parrying, but they don't, parrying is still the pivot point."

I'd like the specific instances then. Because iirc centurion's recovery times are fairly normal outside his punch being pretty bad. Same with his unblockable heavy. Pk's only super good recovery that I know of is after her zone cancel. Valk afaik has *** recovery still even after her rework. Biggest offenders being her sweep and any finisher attack. They did buff the recovery on shield crush iirc though. And glad i'm not sure at all.

"I'm not talking about his pin combo. Most people play 4v4, and all you need is haymaker and a parry. Heavy (25 dmg) heavy cancel into guardbreak (if this isn't countered, you win), bash their head x2 (20 dmg), throw into the wall (10 dmg), pin (30 dmg), punch (10 dmg), pounce (35 dmg). That's a total of 130 damage. The guaranteed version is to dodge and gaurdbreak their recovery, which is 105 damage."

Ah. I didn't think about feats (cause I hate them.) But yeah haymaker is absolutely stupid and needs to be changed.

"Peacekeeper relies on bleed damage. Bleeding out is slow and informs your opponent when they need to turtle to deny an execution. The bleed-out may often deny an execution anyway. On top of that, her stamina consumption is through the roof; one of her "hero tactics" actually puts her OOS, and she's listed as a counter attacker yet various heroes can recover and block her only counter attack. The kit is a mess of several standalone moves that have insane stamina cost and no chemistry. Peacekeepers have to work twice as hard to get to the same place as everyone else, and their executions (health regen) is RNG at best."

I wouldn't say bleed makes people turtle. In my experiences people who bleed tend to be more aggressive because they know they'll die from it. What do you consider her counter attack? Her stamina costs seem normal to me apart from her triple kidney stab. But yeah her kit needs work in general.

"[Shugoki is worse off than Nobushi due to having to spend more to get anywhere. Nevertheless, I disagree, I've always held the opinion that stamina in this game punishes aggression too much, the removal of gear stats has just put a magnifying glass on that issue. The values need to be checked and aggressors need a way to recovery stamina."

Shugoki afaik is bugged. IN that for whatever reason it applies extra stamina costs on his moves after he does them. I agree that stamina costs can be looked at in general. But I don't think it's a glaring issue as a concept like you seem to be presenting.

"It's not dealing with something new that I take issue with, claiming as much is simply misreading my complaint, and I won't make a habit of responding to it. My issue is with the way a lot of these new moves shut down other heroes options. For example, Tiandi has easy access to a bash and an undodgable which effectively bottlenecks their opponents options: parry. Parrying is way overburdened in this game because too often other options just aren't viable. The Wu Lin are designed in a way that just puts more pressure on parrying. Except for Nuxia, who literally punishes it. She's a real bunch of fun with external block."

In this case I think you look at it a little too much like it's a spread sheet. Yes Tiandi has easy access to a bash and an undodgable light. He doesn't have a way to flow one into the other though (via soft feint.) Tiandi can technically follow up anything with a palm strike because it's doable in neutral. But palm strike is a 600ms bash. Which is just as reactable speed wise as a nobushi kick. If you know he's not going to throw an attack after you can just react dodge and get a free GB. His light after has poor range/tracking. and while the heavy he can follow up with on whiff is decent at beating dodge attacks it's again pretty punishable if you know how he plays. I'll have to disagree. In a lot of cases where parrying is seen as the standard you can also simply dodge through the committed to attack and then GB. I do it a lot. People can also try to attack them out of it. This works well against both Tandi's and JJ's dodge heavies. I think the only people feeling the pressure for parries are people who don't try to approach things differently. Nuxia is hit or miss in an external situation. And the fact that her traps in general force people to actually do more than just sit and wait is the best thing this game has ever made imo.

"No, Arcade is a joke. I've played good PvE modes in a lot of games, this is not one of them. And it's not because of the difficulty, only a handful of fights are actually difficult, and usually due to an a ridiculous modifier. I say this mode is garbage because it's a poorly conceived mess of load screens and 1v1 nonsense. For Honor has the foundation for half a dozen brilliant PvE modes. If it was free I would be more understanding but it cost half the price of a full game. It's nothing shy of an insult."

If we compare anything in for honor to a different game it's a joke. Yes arcade mode is low effort. But that doesn't change my perspective. 30$ to pay for the early/access on the heros, their outfits, and a pve mode that is highly abusable for steel/exp/gear gain is how i'm looking at it.

"I may be wrong in making that assumption, yes, but early in the game's life, and just now with Marching Fire, we got a bunch of new content laid on top of some pretty serious problems. The last time this happened the game almost died. We're not looking at the same situation here but we are looking at an even slower schedule for the hero updates and bug fixesbecause there's now more heroes and more things with bugs."

I can't recall much content being dropped pre marching fire. I think tribute, maybe 3 maps. The dlc heros were season pass based and had deadlines they had to make since people paid for the content. Now if next year is another pass I could agree with you. Or if they aim to drop a new hero(s) every 2-3 months and the hero balancing/changes we need to core mechanics take a back seat than I could agree. But for now I simply can't.