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View Full Version : Idea, not mine, for the heavy class



CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-09-2018, 11:41 PM
Someone had the idea of giving all heavies passive hyper armor and unparriable heavy attacks that do chip damage which makes sense to me. In a David (assasins) vs Goliath (heavies) scenario the assassin would use their agility rather than block a heavy attack that would stage them...similar to what you see in the game of thorns fight between the viper and the mountain or in the movie Troy when Paris fights Menelaus.

Conc would have to become a vanguard and Highlander would have to lose his active HA. Lawbringer would become full fledged heavies as it should be.

If heavies didn't have to fear being parried on their heavies it would probably end the 🐢 meta.

Vordred
11-10-2018, 12:21 AM
last thing we need is more special attacks, we have unblockables, bashes, traps, undodgables, so add in unparriables, it would just get silly.

i would rather see parry removed altogether and instead all characters have superior blocks. heavies can have it on heavies, and everyone else can have it on lights.

but then you would have retool a bunch of other things too. and ubi have shown they aren't interesting in investing in updating old stuff, just add new ****

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 12:26 AM
last thing we need is more special attacks, we have unblockables, bashes, traps, undodgables, so add in unparriables, it would just get silly.

i would rather see parry removed altogether and instead all characters have superior blocks. heavies can have it on heavies, and everyone else can have it on lights.

but then you would have retool a bunch of other things too. and ubi have shown they aren't interesting in investing in updating old stuff, just add new ****

Having none parriable lights on the assassin class makes sense. What if only a vanguard could parry both and be parried by both. Vanguard would receive chip damage still both on light and heavy attacks by a heavy.

Also what if a parry:
Assassin: free heavy on heavys light, heavy on vanguard light, light on vanguard heavy

Vanguard: free heavy on assasins light and free light on assasins heavy. Free light on heavy's heavy, free heavy on heavys light.

Heavy: all parries are guaranteed light.

With this system you might be able to get rid of unblockables except on highlander. He could lose his passive HA in offensive to compensate.

Illyrian_King
11-10-2018, 02:48 AM
I proposed a similar thing with the parry punish for the Lawbringer.

We need more actual heavy stuff. Something that lets heavies be heavies and not assassins with a sliggtly higher healthpool.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 03:06 AM
I proposed a similar thing with the parry punish for the Lawbringer.

We need more actual heavy stuff. Something that lets heavies be heavies and not assassins with a sliggtly higher healthpool.
Exactly... And shugoki has an assassins health pool without HA.
Assasins have spam...heavies need thiee own thing better or equal to spam.

The way I see it there should be a rock paper scissors between the classes. Heavies kill assasins, assasins kill vanguard, vanguard kill heavies generally speaking of course. Hybrids would have to pick a class....maybe in for honor 2.

Illyrian_King
11-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Exactly... And shugoki has an assassins health pool without HA.
Assasins have spam...heavies need thiee own thing better or equal to spam.

The way I see it there should be a rock paper scissors between the classes. Heavies kill assasins, assasins kill vanguard, vanguard kill heavies generally speaking of course. Hybrids would have to pick a class....maybe in for honor 2.

I know ... that extra 25% dmg without hyperamour is really a pestilence for Goki ^^

Eventhough I don't think that such a rock-scissor-paper thing would be good. Every hero should have a good chance against every hero.

What there should definitely be, is more mechanics beside unblockables (since unblockables are mostly easy to deal with) that let slow heavies be effective.
Speaking of stuff like parry-resistance, more chip-damage.

Lightning fast soft-feints don't really fit to heroes like Lawbee, Goki and even Raider to a certain extent. Just look at his bigasss 2-handed axe

Goat_of_Vermund
11-10-2018, 01:28 PM
From the heavies, I only play lawbringer and shugoki (and sometimes conqueror, but he is not a heavy, he should be swapped with lawbringer), but I try to give a generic opinion on them.

In 4v4, they do what is expected from them to some extent. They are the slow guys you want to outmanuever, because they hit you hard. Some heroes are weak, but it's easier in 4v4 to live up to your role. Vanguards are the frontlines, assassins the scout, heavies are the heavy infantry.
In 1v1, where they are easily counterable, they are not too good.

Some of my suggestions to improve them.

1. They need more active hyperarmor (on some moves) and more hp (around 200 or more if assassins keep their 120). Maybe more damage and maybe more unblockables.

2. I don't think they should be turtles, or be turtled. They should simply just ignore damage with heavy armor and toughness. What if some heavy attack, even if parried, would get a fast enough recovery to avoid punishes (even cent knee kick) with some difficulty, negating the main reward for turtling. In return, these heavies should regain their stamina slower, and they would only get guaranteed punish on a light parry (and only about 25 dmg or so). They could start something on parries as a blind justice, which is not guaranteed, but threatening and would give great mixup potential.
The main weakness of these heavies would come when they overextend their stamina: since they are slow, they will suffer greatly for it (kinda what happened in THAT GoT fight).

I really hope they will make heavies something like this. They should be menacing foes who attack you actively, not turtles. I don't remember the part of Star Wars for example when Darth Vader stood in one place, fishing for parries (he is what a lawbringer should be in fighting style, that was clearly shown in his character trailer. It took me some time to realize I bought the wrong hero, he is the bullied kid trying to push the bully after every slap).


Ps: I forgot to mention, superior lights for all.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 02:24 PM
I believe there should be a balance of both the spam meta and the turtle. I don't want another hackandslash battlefront. Turtling takes more skill than light spam.
Trying to balance the different classes equally is likened to a motorcycle and a car racing....one is going to be overpowered or one under powered for them to reach the finish line at the same time. Nobody will agree which one should be what so the imbalance will go on. Which is why rock paper scissors would be a much easier solution. We already have imbalance and the heavy class is underpowered so the rock and the scissors are the exact opposite of how they should be. Since heavies are getting a rework it would be easy to put them in their rightful place.
I agree that the heavy class needs more health as an assassin shouldn't be able to kill them in 15 second like they do in this game.

Illyrian_King
11-10-2018, 04:44 PM
I think (without finishing it here) we can all agree (and I hope Ubi reads this) that more blunt strenght would fit heavy characters very well.

Speaking of hyperarmour, parry-resistance, more HP, more damage, more chip damage and stuff like this.

Variations of such stuff should be considered when reworking and buffing heavy heroes.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-10-2018, 05:46 PM
Fighting a heavy should feel like fighting a troll in LOTR: assassins should have the chance to easily hit them a few times, but a few hits shouldn't even lower his health considerably. Meanwhile, heavies should kill vanguards in a few hits, maybe two hit an assassin if the assassin is a careless idiot and trades with the heavy (for example, the orochi starts lighting the shugoki while the shugoki charging up a heavy, and it would result in a trade). It should give the "oh ****, I must dodge it" feeling to the assassin, not the "meh, he must be new, let's parry that oversized club from that giant with my extremely sharp and fragile weapon without ruining the edge, then maxpunish the fat idiot." I like the parry mechanic, but the ability to stand safely in the face of a guy a head bigger without actively doing anything is stupid.

An assassin vs heavy fight should be fast: the heavy wouldn't stand a chance walking out of it unscatched, but the assassin should really move as much as he can without making bad reads.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 06:09 PM
Fighting a heavy should feel like fighting a troll in LOTR: assassins should have the chance to easily hit them a few times, but a few hits shouldn't even lower his health considerably. Meanwhile, heavies should kill vanguards in a few hits, maybe two hit an assassin if the assassin is a careless idiot and trades with the heavy (for example, the orochi starts lighting the shugoki while the shugoki charging up a heavy, and it would result in a trade). It should give the "oh ****, I must dodge it" feeling to the assassin, not the "meh, he must be new, let's parry that oversized club from that giant with my extremely sharp and fragile weapon without ruining the edge, then maxpunish the fat idiot." I like the parry mechanic, but the ability to stand safely in the face of a guy a head bigger without actively doing anything is stupid.

An assassin vs heavy fight should be fast: the heavy wouldn't stand a chance walking out of it unscatched, but the assassin should really move as much as he can without making bad reads.
So me and you disagree on who is the rock and who is the scissors essentially. I'm fine with that. I very much disagree that a tank class should be taken down quickly cuz that make no sense and goes against their nature...Respectfully.

Tyrjo
11-10-2018, 06:26 PM
The turtle meta is long gone. Hasn't been around for more than a year and with the new heroes out it was finally killed completely. Welcome the bash and light spam meta.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 06:35 PM
The turtle meta is long gone. Hasn't been around for more than a year and with the new heroes out it was finally killed completely. Welcome the bash and light spam meta.

Tell that to Lawbringer, warlord, and shugoki. I don't know why you are stating this. And one could make the argument of a resurgence of the turtle meta given that gear score is gone and oos is more prevelant.

Devils-_-legacy
11-10-2018, 06:53 PM
Tell that to Lawbringer, warlord, and shugoki. I don't know why you are stating this. And one could make the argument of a resurgence of the turtle meta given that gear score is gone and oos is more prevelant.

Turtle meta died after a parry ment no gb

Illyrian_King
11-10-2018, 07:01 PM
Forget the turtle meta and the new bash spam meta ... we need new mechanics to fix this.

Thungs can't be fixed with more stuff like what we already have.

We need stuff, that lets people do heavy attacks without fearing a parry.
BUT
without being a bash or just a fast spam.

This is the chain we just all pull on as Community and give clear signals to the devs.

Devils-_-legacy
11-10-2018, 07:09 PM
Forget the turtle meta and the new bash spam meta ... we need new mechanics to fix this.

Thungs can't be fixed with more stuff like what we already have.

We need stuff, that lets people do heavy attacks without fearing a parry.
BUT
without being a bash or just a fast spam.

This is the chain we just all pull on as Community and give clear signals to the devs.
Im all for heavys getting buffed but The unparribale heavys just sound cancerous for 4v4s

Illyrian_King
11-10-2018, 09:45 PM
Im all for heavys getting buffed but The unparribale heavys just sound cancerous for 4v4s

But there is not much of another way.

You can still give them bashes, unblockables, 400ms lights and soft-feints ... but who wants more of that, when speaking about cancer?

One could add the condition, that unparriable stuff is just unparriable when directly locked on. It's all programmable.

Herbstlicht
11-10-2018, 10:18 PM
Hmm, If I just ignore all the crazy imbalance stuff like adding even more health and hyperarmor on different moves, I kinda like the idea of unparryable heavy attacks to some extent. Parry should be possible to avoid chip damage only. No chance to retaliate. Thing is only this property, maybe combined with hyperarmor if the attack is slow. But no unblockable property on top of this.
In the end, when talking Dominion and breach, assassin's are not in the best spot. And look at JJ with high health sifu stance extended dodge frames on a feintable dodgeattack and 500 Ms omnidirectional lights. Make his hp 200, his heavys unparryable and tell me this still is even remotely balanced in the team modes.

Devils-_-legacy
11-10-2018, 10:30 PM
But there is not much of another way.

You can still give them bashes, unblockables, 400ms lights and soft-feints ... but who wants more of that, when speaking about cancer?

One could add the condition, that unparriable stuff is just unparriable when directly locked on. It's all programmable.
You could buff there original kits or rework them from the ground up to be more on par with jj and Kensie
I don't mind soft feints or lights unblockables even bashes suite a heavy
We don't need unparribales if you want something similar then traps don't add a whole new mechanism I can see them working in 1 v 1 but the unparribales in a 4v4 situation there would be no counter but die

AzureSky.
11-10-2018, 11:03 PM
There's no more turtle meta..... also the problem with heavies are that the system is very simple and rewards a lot more a 400ms attack rather than a slow one. The solution to this is frames (advantage and negative frames based on character move and situation, if the opponent blocked, got hit, etc) This in a general non personal sense. (something that should be done)

In a personal opinion i think they should add command grabs into the game for heavies to use (also some simple ones for slower hybrids too) this game doesn't have them yet, except some moves but they don't count as command grabs cause they are not done after a grab (yeah im talking about shinobi and centurion "cinematic" moves, shaman one too)

Herbstlicht
11-11-2018, 12:45 AM
There's no more turtle meta..... also the problem with heavies are that the system is very simple and rewards a lot more a 400ms attack rather than a slow one. The solution to this is frames (advantage and negative frames based on character move and situation, if the opponent blocked, got hit, etc) This in a general non personal sense. (something that should be done)

In a personal opinion i think they should add command grabs into the game for heavies to use (also some simple ones for slower hybrids too) this game doesn't have them yet, except some moves but they don't count as command grabs cause they are not done after a grab (yeah im talking about shinobi and centurion "cinematic" moves, shaman one too)

I would personally hate everything that takes away controle from me as a player. We are not in an 1on1 but in a team fighter. Hitting bashes for a free damage hit or going into a swift animation like nuxia on successful zone trap is ok, but first one isn't bad on damage, second is very hard to get. But getting a cutscene off a guard break would just plain and simple suck. I am not against buffs for some heavies, but keep in mind how people hate to be on the receiving end of a cutscene.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-11-2018, 02:24 AM
Im all for heavys getting buffed but The unparribale heavys just sound cancerous for 4v4s
Well area attacks and heavy unblockable would be cancerous which is where we are headed with JJ. With goki and law with their natural heavies are rarely area affect.
All heavies need more health like 200 at least so they have lasting power or 170 with passive HA.
Shugoki will probably keep his passive and the reason they debuffed his stamina is probably so they can give him JJs Sufi stance.
I agree that light spam is too rewarding if heavy classes are to remain as they are. Adding active HA to them doesn't work. Because once people memorize their move set it becomes nearly useless.
Adding unparriable chip damage heavies with passive HA would make it easier for a heavy to stay active in the fight and counter the light spam meta a bit.
I think most of the community are against cut scenes thanks to centurion. Not that they are inherently bad but he did ruins their inclusion.

Devils-_-legacy
11-11-2018, 02:31 AM
Well area attacks and heavy unblockable would be cancerous which is where we are headed with JJ. Why goki and law with their natural heavies are rarely area affect.
All heavies need more health like 200 at least so they have lasting power or 170 with passive HA.
Shugoki will probably keep his passive and the reason they debuffed his stamina is probably so they can give him JJs Sufi stance.
I agree that light spam is too rewarding if heavy classes are to remain as they are. Adding active HA to them doesn't work. Because once people memorize their move set it becomes nearly useless.
Adding unoarriable chip damage heavies with passive HA would make it easier for a heavy to stay active in the fight and counter the light spam meta a bit.
I think most of the community are against cut scenes thanks to centurion. Not that they are inherently bad but he did ruins their inclusion.

Light spam isn't a meta. I don't see aoe attacks or ub on a long range hero like jj as cancerous I don't mind it I rarely gank I tend to catch them on there own. The reason there heavys arnt area of effect like jj is Because there OG heros all of the original cast have poor kit design compared to the wulin or dlc heros (bar aramusha cent shinobi) they will probably increase the aoe on all heavys attack I just don't see adding in unparribale heavys as the answer let alone how the devs could balance other without breaking 4v4. My biggest fear is this would make a gank squad and even bigger threat with no counter with the added ha so you cant even interrupt it

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-11-2018, 02:55 AM
Light spam isn't a meta. I don't see aoe attacks or ub on a long range hero like jj as cancerous I don't mind it I rarely gank I tend to catch them on there own. The reason there heavys arnt area of effect like jj is Because there OG heros all of the original cast have poor kit design compared to the wulin or dlc heros (bar aramusha cent shinobi) they will probably increase the aoe on all heavys attack I just don't see adding in unparribale heavys as the answer let alone how the devs could balance other without breaking 4v4. My biggest fear is this would make a gank squad and even bigger threat with no counter with the added ha so you cant even interrupt it.
If your an assassin you pop revenge and run. The fact that people think an assassin should stand a chance against two heavies that haven't taken damage is full hardy. It's not in their character class. Just like if a heavy is ganked buy two assasins he will probably die and doesnt even have the option to run. The only difference is the heavy would make the fight last longer to delay the enemy. Which is how it should be.
And yes light spam is the new meta.

Illyrian_King
11-11-2018, 03:01 AM
Well area attacks and heavy unblockable would be cancerous which is where we are headed with JJ. With goki and law with their natural heavies are rarely area affect.
All heavies need more health like 200 at least so they have lasting power or 170 with passive HA.
Shugoki will probably keep his passive and the reason they debuffed his stamina is probably so they can give him JJs Sufi stance.
I agree that light spam is too rewarding if heavy classes are to remain as they are. Adding active HA to them doesn't work. Because once people memorize their move set it becomes nearly useless.
Adding unparriable chip damage heavies with passive HA would make it easier for a heavy to stay active in the fight and counter the light spam meta a bit.
I think most of the community are against cut scenes thanks to centurion. Not that they are inherently bad but he did ruins their inclusion.

Increasing HP for heavies is a thing I proposed so often. Unparriable stuff is really the way to go.

I personally don't want more cheese.
And further, not the very same cheese for all the 22 Heroes.

Devils-_-legacy
11-11-2018, 03:07 AM
.
If your an assassin you pop revenge and run. The fact that people think an assassin should stand a chance against two heavies that haven't taken damage is full hardy. It's not in their character class. Just like if a heavy is ganked buy two assasins he will probably die and doesnt even have the option to run. The only difference is the heavy would make the fight last longer to delay the enemy. Which is how it should be.
And yes light spam is the new meta.

No I feignt then deflect/parry and chip away at both enemies till either I die or they do it normally works because this is a game of skill not rock/paper/scissors next to every move has a counter that wouldn't.
I'm on console if someone is just spamming lights there going to die unless they have a massive pingrate.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-11-2018, 09:52 AM
No I feignt then deflect/parry and chip away at both enemies till either I die or they do it normally works because this is a game of skill not rock/paper/scissors next to every move has a counter that wouldn't.
I'm on console if someone is just spamming lights there going to die unless they have a massive pingrate.

The only reason you win against two heavies is because heavies are Nerfed to the ground in this game. It's not skill. And to say your on console deflecting/parrying light spam all the time like a badas is laughable.