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Tatsu147146
11-09-2018, 04:58 PM
I think that perhaps all characters should be changed in one way or another to an extent. At the moment all the character are in a way very similar, apart from move sets, they basically have the same dodge timings, similar attack speeds and damage outputs, almost no real weight to them, and defense varies little between classes and much less between factions. I believe that giving each faction a particular advantage and disadvantage that is used for their characters respectively would bring them closer balance wise. People would know in which area they excel and in which area they don't in a way that isn't so varied between characters of a single faction. Their weapons, armor, and weight should be accounted for. Which brings me to how I think the characters/factions should be balanced out.

Knights: Knights clearly have the most durable of armor meant to be able to protect the wearer from most sharp force trauma at the cost of mobility, since it is supposed to at least add 60 lb. to the wearer. This way all the Knights (with the exception of PK and Gladiator who would trade defense for mobility) should have higher amount of defense but slower dodges (meaning in slightly higher risk of GB) and less stamina cost reduction.

Vikings: Vikings would beyond doubt have the highest mobility in the game because of the fact they wear nearly no armor or very little armor which would also mean they have less defense. Increasing their dodge speed (which in turn would mean smaller window for GB) and stamina pool but hindering their health.

Samurai: (This was at first slightly harder for me to find a weakness because Samurai were the most advanced warrior of their time but inspecting and comparing in the game I find that most of their weapons in fact would cause less damage than most others in the game with the exception of the kanabō which is second to none in terms of damage). The Samurai have the most efficient armor in the game allowing for a good range of mobility and defense but (with exception of the kanabō) would deal less damage. The Samurai are for the most part using thin blades that although durable are not the most effective tool on plate armor for example. They would have an average health pool, stamina pool, and mobility but lower damage output compared to the rest of the roster (except Sugoki which trades stamina and mobility for damage and defense).

Wu Lin: (This one is the one I can hardly understand they don't follow a particular pattern unlike the previous three. In a way they made them very similar to the Samurai but at the same time different which makes it very difficult to make a new advantage and disadvantage that isn't the same as a Samurai). Arguably the most random assortment of warriors of one faction in the game, the Wu Lin seem to have an average amount of armor so I focused on the weight of their weapons instead. Three out of the four have heavy or relatively unwieldy weapons so in turn they should have a lower amount of stamina cost reduction (which isn't even a problem for JJ because Sifu's poise can be done out of stamina, for this to work his Sifu's poise should be removed from OOS) but better mobility (which for whatever reason they already have).

However this is just the way I see it and doubt Ubi would implement such an idea but I felt like sharing it anyway. What do you guys think, is there a different way to settle the balance issues in a realistic fashion that doesn't involve an endless cycle of nerf this buff that?

UbiInsulin
11-09-2018, 08:40 PM
I can definitely see the appeal of the factions' different personalities being shown through more severe gameplay differences. But it's hard for me to say how this would work with fast Knights (like PK) and slow Vikings (HL), for example. Would they end up too strong by virtue of combining the strength of their faction with the strength of their Hero Type?

Wookiescantfly
11-09-2018, 10:07 PM
I agree with Ubinsulin on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your general theme appears to be

Knights: + Defense, - Mobility, - Stamina Cost Reduction
Vikings: + Mobility, + Stamina, - Health
Samurai: - Damage, ~ Health, ~ Stamina, ~ Mobility
Wu Lin: + Mobility, - Stamina Cost Reduction

Exceptions:
PK: +Mobility, - Defense
Gladiator: +Mobility, - Defense
Shugoki: + Defense, + Damage, - Stamina, - Mobility


If the above is correct then a character like Highlander is definitely a concern. It does look like you're going for contextual stats, so if I could spitball an idea here? Why not develop system that factors Faction, Armor, Weapon, and Class into individual stat bonuses? I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

Tatsu147146
11-09-2018, 10:48 PM
I can definitely see the appeal of the factions' different personalities being shown through more severe gameplay differences. But it's hard for me to say how this would work with fast Knights (like PK) and slow Vikings (HL), for example. Would they end up too strong by virtue of combining the strength of their faction with the strength of their Hero Type?
Well I've thought about that and I should elaborate a bit more on that matter. PK would have to trade part of her mobility and speed for slightly higher defense but not an amount that would make her too slow but enough to catch up with her. At the moment her strongest asset is light spam, decreasing her stamina pool would make her much more vulnerable by not being able to light spam her way to victory, at some point they'll have to stop or go OOS this is where her risk comes into play, she could deplete her stamina and get punished or dodge back and as a knight her decreased mobility would allow a much safer GB by the opponent giving her the defining weakness that I talked about earlier. This way she'll have to use more of her move set to get her damage in and not rely solely on lights.

As for HL it's pretty much the inverse, right now he is considerably slow but by increasing mobility slightly and decreasing his health it should allow for characters to catch up with his damage input. So even though he would be faster than now he would have to time his attacks and offensive stance carefully or be eaten up by damage.

In my opinion they would have to fight smarter to make up for their disadvantages instead of continually spamming or relying too heavily on specific moves, forcing them to strategize constantly. For example let's say we take both PK and HL and made them fight in this scenario in the game as it is now, PK always has the overwhelming advantage because of the fact she doesn't need to do much more than dodge away from her enemy and attack periodically since HL is to slow to catch up. By giving them the changes stated above PK now has to play smarter, she can no longer dodge her way out because HL can now GB safer or catch her with an attack nor can she continually spam for the fact that she'll lose her stamina. On the other side we have HL who knows he can't take overwhelming amounts of damage and therefore can't dish out attacks without thinking of its consequences if it attacks to rashly he'll get countered and eat damage. This is not to say it'll be another defensive meta stand off again since PK and HL both have options to open nonetheless. HL could enter his offensive stance to put PK on edge, she could try forward heavy which would subsequently add bleed or HL could go for his kick feint into grab and get his damage in, putting pressure on both to fight or die.

Of course if I missed some problem with this scenario let me know. But I think that with some tweaking this balancing idea might work.

Tatsu147146
11-09-2018, 10:58 PM
I agree with Ubinsulin on this one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your general theme appears to be

Knights: + Defense, - Mobility, - Stamina Cost Reduction
Vikings: + Mobility, + Stamina, - Health
Samurai: - Damage, ~ Health, ~ Stamina, ~ Mobility
Wu Lin: + Mobility, - Stamina Cost Reduction

Exceptions:
PK: +Mobility, - Defense
Gladiator: +Mobility, - Defense
Shugoki: + Defense, + Damage, - Stamina, - Mobility


If the above is correct then a character like Highlander is definitely a concern. It does look like you're going for contextual stats, so if I could spitball an idea here? Why not develop system that factors Faction, Armor, Weapon, and Class into individual stat bonuses? I'd be interested to see what you come up with.
I hadn't thought about tweaking the classes although I think you have a point, but I didn't get a chance to read this before posting my most recent post. But like I said on it if you have opinions on the example fight I'd love to hear them and yes you are right, there should be a bit more to the stats of individual classes though presently I'm unsure what to do with that but I like the idea I'll see what I might be able to come up with.

EDIT: Although yes the way you summarized the stats is quite correct, they would vary with the individual character and not completely generalized across all characters of the same faction.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-09-2018, 11:21 PM
This might be a little off topic but I like the idea someone had of giving all heavies HA and unparriable heavy attacks that cause minor chip damage if blocked.
It makes sense to be because in a David (assassin) vs Goliath (heavy) scenerio even blocking a hit would stagger the assassin so in order to properly engage the assassin would have to use their agility. Conc would have to be downgraded to a vanguard and Highlander would lose his active HA for it to be replaced with the above properties. Lawbringer would have to become a full fledged heavy in this scenario as he should be anyways.
It might be a better way of ending the turtle meta once and for all.

Tatsu147146
11-09-2018, 11:43 PM
This might be a little off topic but I like the idea someone had of giving all heavies HA and unparriable heavy attacks that cause minor chip damage if blocked.
It makes sense to be because in a David (assassin) vs Goliath (heavy) scenerio even blocking a hit would stagger the assassin so in order to properly engage the assassin would have to use their agility. Conc would have to be downgraded to a vanguard and Highlander would lose his active HA for it to be replaced with the above properties. Lawbringer would have to become a full fledged heavy in this scenario as he should be anyways.
It might be a better way of ending the turtle meta once and for all.
I'm going to have to disagree with this since making all heavies have HA ability would decrease the amount of strategy involved and would make all heavy characters behave fairly the same. Making an unparriable attack would make it too safe for heavies to simply attack without any major punish this in turn takes away from any reason to even block let alone deflect.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-10-2018, 12:13 AM
I'm going to have to disagree with this since making all heavies have HA ability would decrease the amount of strategy involved and would make all heavy characters behave fairly the same. Making an unparriable attack would make it too safe for heavies to simply attack without any major punish this in turn takes away from any reason to even block let alone deflect.

Heavies acting similar is the point. An assassin can spam (similarly) so why shouldn't heavies be allowed to in their own way. That is the problem with heavies now. They have no pressure on assasins. An assasin should be the one to parry lights, deflect, dodge, and counter attack. Saying a slow heavy should is kinda against the point of being a heavy.

I created this topic in its own thread do to an error message I got when submitting. I did not mean to hijack this one. Sorry.

UbiInsulin
11-10-2018, 02:40 AM
Well I've thought about that and I should elaborate a bit more on that matter. PK would have to trade part of her mobility and speed for slightly higher defense but not an amount that would make her too slow but enough to catch up with her. At the moment her strongest asset is light spam, decreasing her stamina pool would make her much more vulnerable by not being able to light spam her way to victory, at some point they'll have to stop or go OOS this is where her risk comes into play, she could deplete her stamina and get punished or dodge back and as a knight her decreased mobility would allow a much safer GB by the opponent giving her the defining weakness that I talked about earlier. This way she'll have to use more of her move set to get her damage in and not rely solely on lights.

As for HL it's pretty much the inverse, right now he is considerably slow but by increasing mobility slightly and decreasing his health it should allow for characters to catch up with his damage input. So even though he would be faster than now he would have to time his attacks and offensive stance carefully or be eaten up by damage.

In my opinion they would have to fight smarter to make up for their disadvantages instead of continually spamming or relying too heavily on specific moves, forcing them to strategize constantly. For example let's say we take both PK and HL and made them fight in this scenario in the game as it is now, PK always has the overwhelming advantage because of the fact she doesn't need to do much more than dodge away from her enemy and attack periodically since HL is to slow to catch up. By giving them the changes stated above PK now has to play smarter, she can no longer dodge her way out because HL can now GB safer or catch her with an attack nor can she continually spam for the fact that she'll lose her stamina. On the other side we have HL who knows he can't take overwhelming amounts of damage and therefore can't dish out attacks without thinking of its consequences if it attacks to rashly he'll get countered and eat damage. This is not to say it'll be another defensive meta stand off again since PK and HL both have options to open nonetheless. HL could enter his offensive stance to put PK on edge, she could try forward heavy which would subsequently add bleed or HL could go for his kick feint into grab and get his damage in, putting pressure on both to fight or die.

Of course if I missed some problem with this scenario let me know. But I think that with some tweaking this balancing idea might work.

Got it, if the tweaks can be fine-tuned for each hero then it makes a bit more sense. So what about cases where the heroes already pretty much fit your image of the factions? I'm thinking of Shaman and Conqueror in particular. Can we just say that they're already kind of where you'd like them to be? I don't think Shaman needs a speed buff. :P

Tatsu147146
11-10-2018, 11:27 AM
Got it, if the tweaks can be fine-tuned for each hero then it makes a bit more sense. So what about cases where the heroes already pretty much fit your image of the factions? I'm thinking of Shaman and Conqueror in particular. Can we just say that they're already kind of where you'd like them to be? I don't think Shaman needs a speed buff. :P
Yes in fact that was something I forgot to mention, that not all characters would get these drastic changes to their kit like you mentioned some already resemble the kind of changes I'd like to see.

As for Wookiescan'tfly's idea on class weakness and advantage I think a have an idea on that, keep in mind this one is a bit more on the prototype stage and would love feedback on it as well.
To narrow down a bit more on identifying strength and weakness each class will have some trade off that other classes won't, offering more defining traits.

Vanguards: I think that perhaps giving Vanguards a higher exhaustion recovery would allow for more options on 4v4 scenarios but the tradeoff would be receiving higher damage from unblockable attacks than other characters.

Heavies: Heavies should have a higher debuff resistance (not feat debuff resistance but crowd control moves like Centurion's punch) making it harder for other characters to spam stamina draining moves (I'm an average build guy and I can take a full punch from another average built guy so giving the largest and strongest characters the ability to get pushed around and take it without major punish makes sense to me). Their tradeoff would be a lower exhaustion recovery (due to the fact they are larger than everyone else they require more blood pressure than the others and would be tired for longer periods of time [I'm eyeballing JJ on this one]).

Assassins: Most of the assassins have high risk low reward dodge attacks for them to be a bit more viable the assassin's should have a higher attack on dodge attacks trading it with debuff resistance allowing enemy's to throw them OOS faster than with say a Heavy character. This in theory should stop a lot of light spam.

Hybrids: Hybrids would share one of the previous three advantage/disadvantage according to what best fits their character. For example Lawbringer would have a Heavie's advantage/disadvantage instead of a Vanguard's because well just look at him.

This isn't meant to be some large drastic amount, but enough to be visible enough for each class giving them each something different that can be used for or against specific characters.