PDA

View Full Version : Until you nerf Shoulin



BaelinFisherman
11-06-2018, 02:50 AM
I will quit the match whenever I see one. This is literal garbage. His guaranteed triple hit on his kick, his stupidly OP unblockable superior attack or wtfe you call it, his ridiculous speed on all light attacks. He has way too much and no weaknesses. Total crap. Shoulin needs nerfed in a BAD way. He is FAR too strong, I cannot believe he even made it past play testing.

Blitzwarrior771
11-06-2018, 03:35 AM
Then tiandi and Nuxia make me spend 15 000 steel then nerf

BaelinFisherman
11-12-2018, 07:33 PM
Then tiandi and Nuxia make me spend 15 000 steel then nerf

Nobody made you spend 15k steel on them, you chose to do it. By that logic, that can apply to every single character that has been nerfed. "Hurrr, FH made me spend 15k steel on Shinobi then nerfed him Boo Hissssss." No, the terrible balance in this game WILL eventually kill it if they don't apply nerfs where needed, and with Shaolin, it is VERY needed.

Blitzwarrior771
11-12-2018, 08:33 PM
Sadly they made the game for 2% of player base who r also the top one . Only they can react to all this nonsense thatís why game is unenjoyable . Iím also questioning they reaction I bet they use some kind of a trick or a cheat . Is there a multifunctional controller for PS4 to buy ? I want one .

UbiInsulin
11-12-2018, 08:50 PM
Shaolin does seem to be one of the stronger Wu Lin heroes (at least in the opinion of the competitive community). The team is paying close attention to the performance of all the new additions to the game.

Fat_Conzo1ubi
11-12-2018, 09:05 PM
Its not needed bro, i mean if you really think about it he's quite counterable, yes his top light is fast, but why not just constantly block there? His side lights are slower so block top all the time, then if he throws sides just quickly change guard to block the return to top block stance, this will stop shaolin from getting into QI stance thus rendering the heri practically useless, yes he could back step heavy and purposefully whif but tjen all you simply have to do if you see this, is a dodge backwards then you're out of range of the sun kick, leaving only the stunning tap and undodgeable attack, but again, these are reactable, hope this helps you out dude

Herbstlicht
11-12-2018, 09:43 PM
Back dodge nullifies almost half of shaolins kit. Block top nullifies 400ms light. Now for the triple side light combo: it ends on the third hit. Fight back to neutral. His heavys are low relatively low on the damage side. So if you really complain about Shaolin, you might be playing one of the weak heroes or you simply have been outmatched. I won't say he is weak. But I personally consider him below Berserker, Conq, Warden, Kensei and Shaman - possibly even a few others in team games.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 10:05 PM
If you tell me who you play I might be able to give you match up specific advise. Until then here is the general run down about shaolin:

Shaolin can only get into qi stance 3 ways. Light/heavy attack landing, deflect, and whiffing an attack into it. His attack speeds from neutral (which means the first attack thrown from a standing position) are 500ms side lights/400ms top, and 800ms heavies on all sides.

If you are a standard guard hero resting your guard up top and always returning it back to top after each defensive action is how you shut him out in 90% of the situations. As reacting to a 500ms side light should be easy by now for anyone with significant play time for this game. This usually means shaolin will do one of two things. Feint and immediately do a light or try to throw a raw heavy. Shaolin like many heros out there happens to share the same start up animations for his basic attacks. So you can't go off of indicator alone. But enough time against him should lessen if not nullify this animation advantage.

So the proper response would be to parry that committed to heavy whenever he throws one out. Experienced shaolin will back whiff into qi to avoid a parry attempt. However this presents an issue for Shaolin. If he back whiffs a light he will be out of kick range which is his most powerful tool. Leaving him with only a top light or side heavy out of qi. both are reactable since top is 500ms and side heavies are 700ms. So he would have to back step heavy whiff. Since that always misses. And since the heavy is 800ms you can easily read this behavior and punish him with something or dodge as kick is likely to be the response after managing this. Since there is no reason to whiff into heavy beyond staying in range for kick.

Next we will talk about his second biggest weakness (first was how hard it is to get into qi when vsing a standard guard hero) which is bash based mix ups. It takes 200ms for shaolin to get into qi stance. it takes him 300ms after feinting out in order to block. And it takes him 500ms after feinting out of qi in order to dodge, deflect, parry, attack. Why is this important? It means if you're letting a fast bash fly (say conq's fastest bash or warlord's headbutt) he can't avoid it. His best response to a bash is his top light in qi due to it's speed alone. but you can easily bait that with an empty dodge and then parry it or some other punish. The side heavy from his qi is too slow at 700ms. Even if it wasn't slow it's not a dodge attack as it has no I frames. So it wouldn't be able to counter a raw bash.

Shaolin's only option to deal with bash based mix ups is to play the ranged game and make correct reads with his top light from qi. Which isn't a reliable option. He also doesn't have a very strong answer to unblockable based mix ups either. as he has no dodge attack in qi, can't parry in qi, and cant CGB in qi. But unblockable attack mix ups are a bit easier to deal with in a general sense just due to their nature as attacks rather than bashes.

Finally here is some misc info for you. Shaolin's unblockable sweep and unblockable heavy after kick both can't be delayed. and in the unblockable heavie's case it has to be feinted the moment it's been input. Shaolin's side heavies have a very short feint window. Due to that and how timings work with dodges an opponent if they read your dodge heavy can parry/cgb in time regardless of what you choose to do with the attack if they early dodge. Kick itself is prone to miss on early dodges. But you can semi delay it in order to catch a late dodge. And if dodged nets you a GB. His side lights are 700ms? and have no tracking or forward movement. They do have the most forgiving superior attack property frames though. So for that reason they're only good for dealing with CCing side based attacks. Finally his top heavy unblockable does have a decent delay window. and there currently is a trick that lets you feint this back into qi. But it's really suseptiable to option selects and raw bashes if over used.

What does this all mean? Roughly speaking shaolin has to make reads on the opponent. He cannot use anything in his kit to trick people who are knowledgable of his kit both due to the fact that he has no soft feints and because all but 3 of his feintable attacks have practically no delay window to them. (forward dash heavy, top unblockable from qi, and raw heavies.) Shaolin is rolling people right now because they're not used to him. Once people get used to him he'll be less of a pub stomper.

To recap if you're a standard guard player:
~always rest guard up top and return your guard up top whenever possible after reacting to something he does.
~parry raw heavy attempts.
~Get in shaolins face to smack him out of the whiffed backwards heavy if he attempts to do so.
~if you have access to bashed based mix ups get used to throwing a bash on reaction to entering qi and whenever he tries to use his top unblockable.
~Always option select his top unblockable if you have the stamina.

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

Devils-_-legacy
11-12-2018, 10:21 PM
If you tell me who you play I might be able to give you match up specific advise. Until then here is the general run down about shaolin:

Shaolin can only get into qi stance 3 ways. Light/heavy attack landing, deflect, and whiffing an attack into it. His attack speeds from neutral (which means the first attack thrown from a standing position) are 500ms side lights/400ms top, and 800ms heavies on all sides.

If you are a standard guard hero resting your guard up top and always returning it back to top after each defensive action is how you shut him out in 90% of the situations. As reacting to a 500ms side light should be easy by now for anyone with significant play time for this game. This usually means shaolin will do one of two things. Feint and immediately do a light or try to throw a raw heavy. Shaolin like many heros out there happens to share the same start up animations for his basic attacks. So you can't go off of indicator alone. But enough time against him should lessen if not nullify this animation advantage.

So the proper response would be to parry that committed to heavy whenever he throws one out. Experienced shaolin will back whiff into qi to avoid a parry attempt. However this presents an issue for Shaolin. If he back whiffs a light he will be out of kick range which is his most powerful tool. Leaving him with only a top light or side heavy out of qi. both are reactable since top is 500ms and side heavies are 700ms. So he would have to back step heavy whiff. Since that always misses. And since the heavy is 800ms you can easily read this behavior and punish him with something or dodge as kick is likely to be the response after managing this. Since there is no reason to whiff into heavy beyond staying in range for kick.

Next we will talk about his second biggest weakness (first was how hard it is to get into qi when vsing a standard guard hero) which is bash based mix ups. It takes 200ms for shaolin to get into qi stance. it takes him 300ms after feinting out in order to block. And it takes him 500ms after feinting out of qi in order to dodge, deflect, parry, attack. Why is this important? It means if you're letting a fast bash fly (say conq's fastest bash or warlord's headbutt) he can't avoid it. His best response to a bash is his top light in qi due to it's speed alone. but you can easily bait that with an empty dodge and then parry it or some other punish. The side heavy from his qi is too slow at 700ms. Even if it wasn't slow it's not a dodge attack as it has no I frames. So it wouldn't be able to counter a raw bash.

Shaolin's only option to deal with bash based mix ups is to play the ranged game and make correct reads with his top light from qi. Which isn't a reliable option. He also doesn't have a very strong answer to unblockable based mix ups either. as he has no dodge attack in qi, can't parry in qi, and cant CGB in qi. But unblockable attack mix ups are a bit easier to deal with in a general sense just due to their nature as attacks rather than bashes.

Finally here is some misc info for you. Shaolin's unblockable sweep and unblockable heavy after kick both can't be delayed. and in the unblockable heavie's case it has to be feinted the moment it's been input. Shaolin's side heavies have a very short feint window. Due to that and how timings work with dodges an opponent if they read your dodge heavy can parry/cgb in time regardless of what you choose to do with the attack if they early dodge. Kick itself is prone to miss on early dodges. But you can semi delay it in order to catch a late dodge. And if dodged nets you a GB. His side lights are 700ms? and have no tracking or forward movement. They do have the most forgiving superior attack property frames though. So for that reason they're only good for dealing with CCing side based attacks. Finally his top heavy unblockable does have a decent delay window. and there currently is a trick that lets you feint this back into qi. But it's really suseptiable to option selects and raw bashes if over used.

What does this all mean? Roughly speaking shaolin has to make reads on the opponent. He cannot use anything in his kit to trick people who are knowledgable of his kit both due to the fact that he has no soft feints and because all but 3 of his feintable attacks have practically no delay window to them. (forward dash heavy, top unblockable from qi, and raw heavies.) Shaolin is rolling people right now because they're not used to him. Once people get used to him he'll be less of a pub stomper.

To recap if you're a standard guard player:
~always rest guard up top and return your guard up top whenever possible after reacting to something he does.
~parry raw heavy attempts.
~Get in shaolins face to smack him out of the whiffed backwards heavy if he attempts to do so.
~if you have access to bashed based mix ups get used to throwing a bash on reaction to entering qi and whenever he tries to use his top unblockable.
~Always option select his top unblockable if you have the stamina.

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

Nice write up very detailed.
The only thing Im questioning is the side lights from qi stance in my experience they track a early dodge but miss on walking backwards out of range back or a timed dodge.

Knight_Raime
11-12-2018, 10:41 PM
Nice write up very detailed.
The only thing Im questioning is the side lights from qi stance in my experience they track a early dodge but miss on walking backwards out of range back or a timed dodge.

in my experience it does hit early dodges. But not really based on tracking and more so the fact that it's a wide arching hit.

Mezetha
11-13-2018, 12:09 AM
I will quit the match whenever I see one. This is literal garbage. His guaranteed triple hit on his kick, his stupidly OP unblockable superior attack or wtfe you call it, his ridiculous speed on all light attacks. He has way too much and no weaknesses. Total crap. Shoulin needs nerfed in a BAD way. He is FAR too strong, I cannot believe he even made it past play testing.

Blindfolded ez win.. no comment.

https://youtu.be/5gAiqP-gWIo

Blitzwarrior771
11-13-2018, 12:31 AM
yup keep dodging backwards until he screw u with lights . There is no fair fight with Shaolin , when you gonna throw heavy at him ? I guess never gg .

Mezetha
11-13-2018, 12:49 AM
yup keep dodging backwards until he screw u with lights . There is no fair fight with Shaolin , when you gonna throw heavy at him ? I guess never gg .

That s not me I just watched it.. the issues with wu lin heros is literally how easy their move set is to use and what you can get out of if in comparison to old hero's.. there are nearly no downsides for spaming specific moves over and over they will land.. earlier or later.

BaelinFisherman
11-13-2018, 03:04 AM
If you tell me who you play I might be able to give you match up specific advise. Until then here is the general run down about shaolin:

Shaolin can only get into qi stance 3 ways. Light/heavy attack landing, deflect, and whiffing an attack into it. His attack speeds from neutral (which means the first attack thrown from a standing position) are 500ms side lights/400ms top, and 800ms heavies on all sides.

If you are a standard guard hero resting your guard up top and always returning it back to top after each defensive action is how you shut him out in 90% of the situations. As reacting to a 500ms side light should be easy by now for anyone with significant play time for this game. This usually means shaolin will do one of two things. Feint and immediately do a light or try to throw a raw heavy. Shaolin like many heros out there happens to share the same start up animations for his basic attacks. So you can't go off of indicator alone. But enough time against him should lessen if not nullify this animation advantage.

So the proper response would be to parry that committed to heavy whenever he throws one out. Experienced shaolin will back whiff into qi to avoid a parry attempt. However this presents an issue for Shaolin. If he back whiffs a light he will be out of kick range which is his most powerful tool. Leaving him with only a top light or side heavy out of qi. both are reactable since top is 500ms and side heavies are 700ms. So he would have to back step heavy whiff. Since that always misses. And since the heavy is 800ms you can easily read this behavior and punish him with something or dodge as kick is likely to be the response after managing this. Since there is no reason to whiff into heavy beyond staying in range for kick.

Next we will talk about his second biggest weakness (first was how hard it is to get into qi when vsing a standard guard hero) which is bash based mix ups. It takes 200ms for shaolin to get into qi stance. it takes him 300ms after feinting out in order to block. And it takes him 500ms after feinting out of qi in order to dodge, deflect, parry, attack. Why is this important? It means if you're letting a fast bash fly (say conq's fastest bash or warlord's headbutt) he can't avoid it. His best response to a bash is his top light in qi due to it's speed alone. but you can easily bait that with an empty dodge and then parry it or some other punish. The side heavy from his qi is too slow at 700ms. Even if it wasn't slow it's not a dodge attack as it has no I frames. So it wouldn't be able to counter a raw bash.

Shaolin's only option to deal with bash based mix ups is to play the ranged game and make correct reads with his top light from qi. Which isn't a reliable option. He also doesn't have a very strong answer to unblockable based mix ups either. as he has no dodge attack in qi, can't parry in qi, and cant CGB in qi. But unblockable attack mix ups are a bit easier to deal with in a general sense just due to their nature as attacks rather than bashes.

Finally here is some misc info for you. Shaolin's unblockable sweep and unblockable heavy after kick both can't be delayed. and in the unblockable heavie's case it has to be feinted the moment it's been input. Shaolin's side heavies have a very short feint window. Due to that and how timings work with dodges an opponent if they read your dodge heavy can parry/cgb in time regardless of what you choose to do with the attack if they early dodge. Kick itself is prone to miss on early dodges. But you can semi delay it in order to catch a late dodge. And if dodged nets you a GB. His side lights are 700ms? and have no tracking or forward movement. They do have the most forgiving superior attack property frames though. So for that reason they're only good for dealing with CCing side based attacks. Finally his top heavy unblockable does have a decent delay window. and there currently is a trick that lets you feint this back into qi. But it's really suseptiable to option selects and raw bashes if over used.

What does this all mean? Roughly speaking shaolin has to make reads on the opponent. He cannot use anything in his kit to trick people who are knowledgable of his kit both due to the fact that he has no soft feints and because all but 3 of his feintable attacks have practically no delay window to them. (forward dash heavy, top unblockable from qi, and raw heavies.) Shaolin is rolling people right now because they're not used to him. Once people get used to him he'll be less of a pub stomper.

To recap if you're a standard guard player:
~always rest guard up top and return your guard up top whenever possible after reacting to something he does.
~parry raw heavy attempts.
~Get in shaolins face to smack him out of the whiffed backwards heavy if he attempts to do so.
~if you have access to bashed based mix ups get used to throwing a bash on reaction to entering qi and whenever he tries to use his top unblockable.
~Always option select his top unblockable if you have the stamina.

If you have any specific questions feel free to ask.

Thanks for the huge detail, this is a damn good writeup and gives me hope that someday I will fare okay vs Shou. I'm just not fast enough to parry lights in most cases, so I'll never be able to do anything but block those (this has been by far my biggest FH achiles heel, reacting to the 400 ms attacks, or some of the CC moves out there-like Tiandie's light into palm strike).

I've been TRYING to play JJ vs him, but I feel his options are limited here, vs a Shou who knows what they are doing. My other two characters are Valk and Kensei

Knight_Raime
11-13-2018, 03:50 AM
Thanks for the huge detail, this is a damn good writeup and gives me hope that someday I will fare okay vs Shou. I'm just not fast enough to parry lights in most cases, so I'll never be able to do anything but block those (this has been by far my biggest FH achiles heel, reacting to the 400 ms attacks, or some of the CC moves out there-like Tiandie's light into palm strike).

I've been TRYING to play JJ vs him, but I feel his options are limited here, vs a Shou who knows what they are doing. My other two characters are Valk and Kensei

I can't give you much advise with JJ. I do have a rep in him but I don't feel comfortable giving match up advise with him yet. Valk has an easy access to bash via her shield crush. This can be used against him going into qi stance. Her shield crush iirc is 600ms. Meaning if he read it was coming he could feint ahead of time and last second dodge it. But unlikely to be done with the general population. So beyond using that you can use your shield tackle to avoid a fair bit of his options on reaction providing you're not hugging him. You'd go into shield tackle and then immediately feint out of it. I'm not 100% sure but I think you MIGHT be able to dodge his kick on a read using shield tackle. I had it done to me a few times. But I haven't extensively tested it. Proper spacing is required either way. If parrying isn't your thing you could attempt to dodge into his side lights or light into his side lights with her. As you have superior block frames on dodge and superior block frames on your light attacks. Since shaolin is a reflex hero you can get a same side light or a same side dodge light after the SB off of dodge for free guaranteed damage. and both options start your combos.

Kensei wise i'm unsure if pommel can be used consistently to punish going into qi. However kensei does have superior block frames on his dodges like valk. Though in this case i'd only attempt to go for this specifically when Shaolin tries to use his side heavy from qi. This is because you can swift strike raw or with the superior frames and it will land. (providing shaolin read the situation wrong and committed to his qi side heavy) Kensei's zone is capable of option selecting Shaolin's top qi heavy unblockable. I would think that if the shaolin is keen on using his superior attacks in qi that your heavy soft feint into side heavy would still land and result in a trade that's in your favor damage wise. And kensei's forward dash light is a good answer to shaolins trying to back whiff into qi using either a light or a heavy as it's really quick and pretty quick recovery. I just wouldn't do it too often because a good shaolin will get used to this and delay his top light to crushing counter your swift strike.

Herbstlicht
11-13-2018, 10:46 AM
Hum, Raime seems very knowledgable on Shaolin! Well, Sadly, for me personally, I can't react to some stuff from Shaolin due to playing on Console, Even option selecting is rather risky due to the very tight input timing that at times just doesn't register, no matter how well trained the muscle memory for it already is. But anyway, though I'd say monk is very strong, he doesn't feel overpowering. Due to the nature of console, I often play a guessing game with my opponent, and whoever did the right read, makes a good deal. Most important there is that you just don't react "immediately" with a defensive action. I try to always block top and expect the unblockable, I will accept the possible kick into light because I hardly ever dodge it if I don't read it, but everything else is reactable. Best option on console is a player that goes into the dodge attack. Its easy to parry. Guard top is rather important too because if you get hit by the top light, its incredibly hard to react to Shaolin thereafter because of his harder then average to read animations. So if he moves into infinite combo for two or three hits and then goes into Chi again, thats a real hassle. If he goes for the sides, I feel deflects work incredible well. The way he holds his staff, the alignment of the arms and body movement, is very distinct from his other other moves. I dunno how often I got deflects on this.. but I'd say very often.
One of the biggest problems I have and that are sure to stay, simply are that as with all 500 ms attack heroes (and faster): when you get into a medium to lower connection game, its a guessing game. Simple as that. It gets ever so slightly better when I move from TV to Monitor, but well. That's just For Honor on Console. Kinda different game. But still a fun one.

MrB3NX
11-13-2018, 11:35 AM
Shaolin can't start a fight

and you call that OP ?

what a joke .

SangLong524
11-13-2018, 11:59 AM
thanks for the ultimatum. Are you on PC by chance? I'll quit if I see you on my team.

Playing_Mantis
11-13-2018, 01:10 PM
shaolin is very op compared to others. the fact that the block is bugged or something and too many light attacks are making it through my blocks makes him next to impossible to face. ubi please fix the block mechanics to work properly!