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Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 03:17 PM
I've played Lawbringer now since the closed alpha and there's always been an itching question in the back of my head throughout the time I played him: He has a pole-arm and no reach with it, at least no reach that doesn't involve him flinging himself towards the enemy. What I'm getting at is LB is about 7-8ft tall dude, his poleaxe is even taller roughly 8 1/2-9ft long and yet he has about as much range as everyone else still.

In my opinion after playing him for so long I feel he should have two modes of attack much like Highlander, not offensive and defensive stances but more like short range and long range stances. I feel for his long range stance his attacks should be slow, do more damage and take more stamina, but reward LB from being GB so easily during the wind-up of his heavies. His short range mode should entail the ability to do more light chains, quicker, less stamina cost, and less damage but allow him to acquire an opener move or two from neutral short range stance.

Blitzwarrior771
11-05-2018, 03:27 PM
he is fine 👍

Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 03:30 PM
he is fine ��

kk, Roman. :)

papa_joseph1
11-05-2018, 04:02 PM
Lawbringer is in need of love bad, marching nerf hit him hard, the meta used to be to run him with 100% exhaustion recovery and as much stamina re gen as you could throw on him, now without any of that being a thing he can't stay in a fight for long at all, he gets knocked down, exausted, and bullied by everybody.

honestly, a good rework for him would be giving him the immovable perk Goki has, he is the tallest character in the game wearing the most armor, he should be a difficult thing the move around.

Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 04:07 PM
Well, a lot of LBs want a rework. If you just give him the immovable perk it's really not changing all of the issues plaguing him right now. I.E. Shove on block, slow attacks, no openers, turtle meta.

Roseguard_Cpt
11-05-2018, 04:13 PM
I think he could be alright if;
-All Heavy Finishers are Unblockable
-LLH Chain
-All UB Heavies can be soft feinted into GB
-More Damage
-More Health
-More Stamina
-More Capes

Bring on the RaidBossBringer

Blitzwarrior771
11-05-2018, 04:17 PM
With new perks we all struggle with stamina it seems u need to deal with it . Any change on him should give him less defense automatically or he will be op.

Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 04:20 PM
With new perks we all struggle with stamina it seems u need to deal with it . Any change on him should give him less defense automatically or he will be op.

Why reduce his defense? Especially with the speed of the Wu Lin they'd easily be able to shut him down.

EDIT: Not only that but I was not really complaining about his OOS, if anything like I was suggesting with his "Long Range Stance" take more stamina away per attack, but deal more damage and guarantee the safety of being out of reach from GBs.

papa_joseph1
11-05-2018, 05:06 PM
"Give him less defense"

You mean the 8 foot tall space marine type guy wearing full plate armor should get less defense? he has the tallest character model in the game and wears full plate armor, if anything he should be the tankiest character in the game by a wide margin.

Plus there is so much that could be done with the Pole Axe, it is one of the most versatile weapons ever made historically, there are so many treatys and combat books on using the thing that surely we could give him a more interesting move set that makes him more useful, and honestly if we lost impaling charge for a more useful set of moves, i would be ok with that.

Illyrian_King
11-05-2018, 06:39 PM
*Make the light finisher of his LHL-chain as fast as his 2nd light.

*Keep his Block Shove WITHOUT follow up, so he can at least free himself from light spam

*Increase his HP from 150 to 160 to fit his appearance better.

*Give all his heavies hyprramour. If not he then who else??

*Increase his damage. For example his opener top heavy deals only 30dmg while even Warden with a sword deals 40dmg.

*Introduce a parry counter that allows the LB to cause 10dmg when his heavies get parried. This sounds harsh but badically just means, that you should not parry his heavies. Lights still give a punish as normal. It allows him to profit from block damage.

*Leave his stamina this low as it is, so he can not apply preasure for long.

Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 09:07 PM
King, I'm talking a full rework though, just changing the numbers of his health and damage output (Granted, you did mention speeding up an already in-game known chain attack.) doesn't work. People are so familiar with his lackluster kit that the whole thing needs to change. People get the notion that buffs = reworks when that is not the case at all. Buffs just entail the notion of making the hero stronger without any draw backs. A rework introduces an entirely new set of moves and play style with entirely new drawbacks.

Illyrian_King
11-05-2018, 10:16 PM
King, I'm talking a full rework though, just changing the numbers of his health and damage output (Granted, you did mention speeding up an already in-game known chain attack.) doesn't work. People are so familiar with his lackluster kit that the whole thing needs to change. People get the notion that buffs = reworks when that is not the case at all. Buffs just entail the notion of making the hero stronger without any draw backs. A rework introduces an entirely new set of moves and play style with entirely new drawbacks.

Mate, you didn't read what I wrote. I was talking about buffs combined with a new "parry punish" mechanic that should allow Lawbring to throw out his low-*** heavies without fearing to get parried. This combined with hyperarmour on heavies and higher damage could really make him viable in a new way, without introducing more unblockables and light spam or soft-feints (which is basically just spam).

Oddy._.
11-05-2018, 11:55 PM
Mate, you didn't read what I wrote. I was talking about buffs combined with a new "parry punish" mechanic that should allow Lawbring to throw out his low-*** heavies without fearing to get parried. This combined with hyperarmour on heavies and higher damage could really make him viable in a new way, without introducing more unblockables and light spam or soft-feints (which is basically just spam).

And you've missed the whole point of what I said and the point of the thread. I'm not talking about buffs dude, I'm talking a full rework, add all new move-sets all new status effects, I was talking about incorporating Highlanders two-stance idea into LB but instead of it being offense and defense stances - make em long range and short range stances. A full rework.

ChampionRuby50g
11-06-2018, 12:19 AM
*Make the light finisher of his LHL-chain as fast as his 2nd light.

*Keep his Block Shove WITHOUT follow up, so he can at least free himself from light spam

*Increase his HP from 150 to 160 to fit his appearance better.

*Give all his heavies hyprramour. If not he then who else??

*Increase his damage. For example his opener top heavy deals only 30dmg while even Warden with a sword deals 40dmg.

*Introduce a parry counter that allows the LB to cause 10dmg when his heavies get parried. This sounds harsh but badically just means, that you should not parry his heavies. Lights still give a punish as normal. It allows him to profit from block damage.

*Leave his stamina this low as it is, so he can not apply preasure for long.

Let me get something straight. You want to give LB HA on his heavies (fair enough, I agree) so the enemy can no longer interrupt them and theyíll have to make the correct read to counter and punish them. But when they do make the correct read and parry it, you want to punish them further by making them take 10 damage? I canít think of any other hero that has a mechanic that punishes the opponent for making a correct read on them. To be blunt, thatís a shocking idea which should never be implemented. LB already has arguably the best parry punishes in the game, with stunning tap light, impale leading to major damage or ledge, or a top heavy unblockable which chains into shove. He doesnít need to do that when someone parries him.

UbiInsulin
11-06-2018, 12:26 AM
Let me get something straight. You want to give LB HA on his heavies (fair enough, I agree) so the enemy can no longer interrupt them and they’ll have to make the correct read to counter and punish them. But when they do make the correct read and parry it, you want to punish them further by making them take 10 damage? I can’t think of any other hero that has a mechanic that punishes the opponent for making a correct read on them. To be blunt, that’s a shocking idea which should never be implemented. LB already has arguably the best parry punishes in the game, with stunning tap light, impale leading to major damage or ledge, or a top heavy unblockable which chains into shove. He doesn’t need to do that when someone parries him.

That does seem harsh imo.

I'll be following this thread for suggestions though, whether full reworks or smaller tweaks. :)

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-06-2018, 12:43 AM
Let me get something straight. You want to give LB HA on his heavies (fair enough, I agree) so the enemy can no longer interrupt them and theyíll have to make the correct read to counter and punish them. But when they do make the correct read and parry it, you want to punish them further by making them take 10 damage? I canít think of any other hero that has a mechanic that punishes the opponent for making a correct read on them. To be blunt, thatís a shocking idea which should never be implemented. LB already has arguably the best parry punishes in the game, with stunning tap light, impale leading to major damage or ledge, or a top heavy unblockable which chains into shove. He doesnít need to do that when someone parries him.
I think both Lawbringer and shugoki have alot in common. I think they both need unparriable heavies as someone previously suggested when speaking of a shugoki rework.

Oddy._.
11-06-2018, 01:52 AM
@Ubilnsulin. I'd hope you have played For Honor, right? If that's the case I'd like to hear an idea for a buff or rework from you... if that's even allowed?

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 02:19 AM
And you've missed the whole point of what I said and the point of the thread. I'm not talking about buffs dude, I'm talking a full rework, add all new move-sets all new status effects, I was talking about incorporating Highlanders two-stance idea into LB but instead of it being offense and defense stances - make em long range and short range stances. A full rework.

Yep I got what you mean, but adding a parry punish would be an addition to his moveset. It's not like the previous reworked heroes got more then 1-2 new animations if they even got new animations at all.

The long range stuff sounds good, but range is not his problem. His problem is, that he is to slow and has no cheese in form of viable bashes or light spam.

In order to make him viable without turning the walking fortress into a spamming balerina, I proposed what I wrote up earlier.




Let me get something straight. You want to give LB HA on his heavies (fair enough, I agree) so the enemy can no longer interrupt them and theyíll have to make the correct read to counter and punish them. But when they do make the correct read and parry it, you want to punish them further by making them take 10 damage? I canít think of any other hero that has a mechanic that punishes the opponent for making a correct read on them. To be blunt, thatís a shocking idea which should never be implemented. LB already has arguably the best parry punishes in the game, with stunning tap light, impale leading to major damage or ledge, or a top heavy unblockable which chains into shove. He doesnít need to do that when someone parries him.

Please read through what I write:

He needs offensive tools. I am a LB main since the beginning and I can tell you, that he has no opener at all.

You can give him the common treat of incredibly fast bashes or light spam/soft-feints, but who would want more of that unbalanced stuff? Fast stuff wouldn't even fit him. Also the rest of his kit would still remain useless.

Giving him hyperarmour doesn't change the fact that his shiit gets parried consistantly, and he doesn't get through a player that pays even little attention. So which correct "read" are you talking about? He is no Orochi. If you parry his lights, then you deserve it to punish him. My proposal was to cover his his heavies and NOT LIGHTS.
Additionally the hyperarmour would just back-up his heavies, so he doesn't get tapped out all the time.

You said that "you can't think of another hero that punishes a correct read".
Let me help you out: Highlander's kick/grab mix-up (40dmg), Warden's delayed shoulderbash (40dmg), Raider's out of stam mix-up. There is no read, there is pure guessing.

Look at LB's chains (LHH, HLH and LHL) and you will see that there are many 500-600ms lights that you can "read correctly".

LB has the best parry punishes indeed, but it's obvious that he can't feed himself from that. He needs offensive tools, and mine was to allow him causing good amounts of chip damage, instead of broken bashes or other spam.

Edit: Also his parry impale needs a wall to cause 50dmg, which often doesn't happen. His top unblockable does 45dmg and only lands on parried light. The stun light isn't the best since it deals only 20dmg (example: Shaolin gets 24dmg with his tripple light, Cent gets a heavy) and the stun doesn't really help enough to continue the pressure.
Also what is 50dmg nowadays? Shaman does it with her bite, Warden gets 40dmg for delaying his broken shoulderbash, Shugoki can even 1-shot in ganks. Not to think of the pervert OOS-punishes some heroes get.
50dmg is not such a big number meanwhile.

His stamina remains low and his speed too. The perfect heavy.

You can still dodge, deflect, block (with little chip damage that summs up) or parry his lights that happen in every combo.

There is no real way around. My proposition or the nasty, cheap and broken common treatment.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-06-2018, 02:33 AM
Why not make stun taps for raider, Lawbringer and shugoki last longer and be more blinding on assasins (spammers).

ChampionRuby50g
11-06-2018, 02:52 AM
Iím a rep 60 LB. I know he needs offensive tools and more ways to open up his opponents. Getting free damage when I get parried is not a way to open an opponent. In fact, it encourages reckless and brainless gameplay if you can throw out heavy attacks without fear of been punished for it, especially when they have hyper Armor as per your post. I never mentioned anything about parrying his lights. Buff his side lights to 500ms from 600ms, like what happened with Warden. 500ms is still very possible to parry on reaction, but quick enough that they can still land reliably, from a console perspective.

But itís not the point of whether or not his heavy attacks are easy to read. Many heroes have easy to read heavy attacks, but they donít get to punish their opponent for parrying them. It goes agaisnt the fundamental rules of For Honor that have been set in stone since the beginning of the game. You get parried, you get punished. Not you get parried, your opponent gets punished.

Jazz117Volkov
11-06-2018, 03:12 AM
Here's a few ideas.

Fix his stamina.

Heavies from neutral or mid-chain (not chain finishers, those are unblockable) should have a charge property, similar to Centurion's pin. However, in Lawbringer's case the dmg would remain 30, and they wouldn't pin, but they would be uninterruptible, this would give him much better trading potential, and more options to initiate with. This attack could be hard feint, of course, but I also think dodging could feint it too.

Additionally, his heavy chain finishers could cancel into Make Way so they actually have some utility outside of OOS pressure and light parries.

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 02:50 PM
Iím a rep 60 LB. I know he needs offensive tools and more ways to open up his opponents. Getting free damage when I get parried is not a way to open an opponent. In fact, it encourages reckless and brainless gameplay if you can throw out heavy attacks without fear of been punished for it, especially when they have hyper Armor as per your post. I never mentioned anything about parrying his lights. Buff his side lights to 500ms from 600ms, like what happened with Warden. 500ms is still very possible to parry on reaction, but quick enough that they can still land reliably, from a console perspective.

But itís not the point of whether or not his heavy attacks are easy to read. Many heroes have easy to read heavy attacks, but they donít get to punish their opponent for parrying them. It goes agaisnt the fundamental rules of For Honor that have been set in stone since the beginning of the game. You get parried, you get punished. Not you get parried, your opponent gets punished.

You are talking garbage man.

Which fundamental rules? Is Nuxia's block punish walking in line with your fundamentaly rules? I know that the trap mechanic can even be emoted out, but it still punishes blocks. There is nothing more fundamental in this game then a block.

Basically you didn't answer a single one of my points I listed up there.

You think that light spam and bash spam is less brainless then a more safe heavy (can still be dodge attacked, deflected and blocked with little damage) that has to be followed up with a vulnerable 500-600ms light?

You can still dodge attack, deflect, punish his follow up lights, gb him in start up, etc.
It is not brainless and "safe".
It opens completely new mindgames.

Only 500ms side lights DON'T MAKE HIM VIABLE and I also don't play on console. JJ has 500ms lights and they get parried often.

I said it earlier: If not completely new mechanics, then we are gonna get more fast bashes from neutral and light spam/soft feints --> more negative forum posts.
You can't fix LB with the existing tools, without making him an exact copy of the existing rooster.

Don't parry his heavies, but counter in the other ways i mentioned. There is nothing bad about having a Hero that profits from block damage.

And also: Of course it is about the point that his heavies are easy to read. It has to have a bonus trait (hyperarmour is not enough) like Nuxia's trap, Highlander's kick/grab mix-up, Warden's delay shoulderbash, Conq's heavy into shield uppercut, etc.
These are all mechanics that punish you for reacting.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-06-2018, 03:26 PM
Sorry, but I think these changes would make him the most broken hero ever. First, all none bash offensive attempt is gone since the lawbringer will shove back the enemy on block (this is a stupid mechanic that should go). Hyperarmor on some heavies are fine, all of them might be a bit too much. What is completely broken is being punished for parrying. You then have an opponent who can stop chains by blocks, have heavies that are uninterruptable (so they trade even if you fail the parry timing), and if you parry them, you lose health for making a good read. And he also has the best parry punishes in the game, so dodge attacks wouldn't solve anything. And what happens if lb is external parried? Does the opponent die?

Here is my suggestion:

1. Some nerfs first. His toolset is weak, but some moves must be adjusted first. His blockshove have to go, it has no place in the game. His spike and spike parry punish should deal 20 damage, and 10 additional if he hits the enemy into a wall or other player, maybe with a blind, but no guaranteed attack afterwards. With the changes I suggest to shove, the heavy shove must go too. His movement speed should decreased to heavy level. And the bombs need further damage nerf maybe (though I don't know much about current 4v4 balance).

2. His shoves should remain the same in everything, except they should guarantee a 17 damage light with a blind. They wouldn't be spammed because they are slow, but it would still be a threat, especially with hyperarmor, it would be a good trading tool. With confirmed damage, the biggest enemy, the bash meta, would be a bit easier to handle as lawbringer. On miss, the lawbringer should have the option to follow it up with a light, heavy or longarm. The heavy thrown out after the shove should be counted as Judge, Jury and Executioner second heavy, not Trial and Gallows finisher (aka not unblockable).

3. He needs a HH chain (let's call it Trial and Gallows for now, I am sure someone will have a better name). The second heavy should be unblockable, regardless of direction, and deal 40 damage. It would give Lb a bit better opener and more choices. Furthermore, Judge, Jury and Executioner finishers should be hyperarmored, and the hlh (forgot the name) finisher should be unblockable from the top (the guaranteed light at the end is nice, but not absolutely necessary).

4. Longarm should be hyperarmored right from the startup, and guarantee a top heavy (an unblockable one with execution chances). It's tracking should be improved against the earliest dodges. It would be a high risk, high reward move to punish opponents always answering everything with a dodge.

5. Top heavies should deal 40 damage, the sides can remain where they are. Blind justice should have undodgable properties to give the lb a chance to play a double or nothing on heavy parries with more success. Speed up the zone to 600ms (still a free parry). Finally, give the lawbringer a forward dodge attack: he dodges forward, hyperarmor added, and spikes the opponent with the things written down above in point 1, moves forward around 10 meters before the spike itself). Similar in speed to warlord's and centurion's, unfeintable, always strikes at the left (useless in neutral, designed against dodge roll in 1v1 and as gap closer in 4v4).

Oddy._.
11-06-2018, 03:38 PM
"Of course it is about the point that his heavies are easy to read. It has to have a bonus trait (hyperarmour is not enough) like Nuxia's trap, Highlander's kick/grab mix-up, Warden's delay shoulderbash, Conq's heavy into shield uppercut, etc."

Only the example of Nuxia's trap mechanic has any merit of similarity to what you're proposing with LBs heavy parry punish. You also have to account that Nuxia is an assassin with no where near the same health pool as LB. So giving LB a trap like mechanic, making his heavies safer, shouldn't be the case. Honestly as an LB main myself all I want is to be able to open my opponent up from neutral. The reason I want a FULL rework though is because his kit is so familiar to everyone at this point that even noobs have a very high chance of reacting to anything he tries to dish out.

The main issue with how Ubisoft likes to "rework" heroes is by making their attacks slightly faster, give them a faster opener, and some sort of unblockable. Ubisoft and their design philosophy needs to change from that into something that makes more complex move-sets that are harder to react to instead of FORCING a reaction from your opponent. What I mean by that is soft-feinting from heavy wind-ups, that is an excellent idea but how do you implement that mechanic without looking like Centurion?

What I want from Ubisoft is to make each and every hero unique in their own way, not just make them faster and grant some sort of unblockable move. For example, each reworked hero: Conq, Charged Heavy unblockable turns into an unblockable shield bash. Warden, Overhead Heavy Unblockable which can be feinted for baited crushing counter or turned into a GB or Shoulder Bash. Kensei, Top overhead Unblockable which can be feinted into different moves.

Do you see what I mean by the same style of rework? It's just entailing some sort of unblockable, speed buff, and fast opener. Those three categories are what's taking the uniqueness away from For Honors' heroes. I'd honestly want the hero designing team to sit down for months on a good rework idea, communicate with the community while their designing it, get input not only from pro players but new players alike to get the maximum amount of inspiration/ideas from the gamers they say they're trying to satisfy. This is to you Ubisoft, don't be afraid to go out of your way to engage the community at all, personally, through emails, panels ANYTHING. I can guarantee some people will give you crap starting out, but as time goes on I'm very certain people will begin to respect the amount of outreach you're giving to the player-base. Take a risk, what do you have to lose?

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 03:51 PM
Sorry, but I think these changes would make him the most broken hero ever. First, all none bash offensive attempt is gone since the lawbringer will shove back the enemy on block (this is a stupid mechanic that should go). Hyperarmor on some heavies are fine, all of them might be a bit too much. What is completely broken is being punished for parrying. You then have an opponent who can stop chains by blocks, have heavies that are uninterruptable (so they trade even if you fail the parry timing), and if you parry them, you lose health for making a good read. And he also has the best parry punishes in the game, so dodge attacks wouldn't solve anything. And what happens if lb is external parried? Does the opponent die?

Here is my suggestion:

1. Some nerfs first. His toolset is weak, but some moves must be adjusted first. His blockshove have to go, it has no place in the game. His spike and spike parry punish should deal 20 damage, and 10 additional if he hits the enemy into a wall or other player, maybe with a blind, but no guaranteed attack afterwards. With the changes I suggest to shove, the heavy shove must go too. His movement speed should decreased to heavy level. And the bombs need further damage nerf maybe (though I don't know much about current 4v4 balance).

2. His shoves should remain the same in everything, except they should guarantee a 17 damage light with a blind. They wouldn't be spammed because they are slow, but it would still be a threat, especially with hyperarmor, it would be a good trading tool. With confirmed damage, the biggest enemy, the bash meta, would be a bit easier to handle as lawbringer. On miss, the lawbringer should have the option to follow it up with a light, heavy or longarm. The heavy thrown out after the shove should be counted as Judge, Jury and Executioner second heavy, not Trial and Gallows finisher (aka not unblockable).

3. He needs a HH chain (let's call it Trial and Gallows for now, I am sure someone will have a better name). The second heavy should be unblockable, regardless of direction, and deal 40 damage. It would give Lb a bit better opener and more choices. Furthermore, Judge, Jury and Executioner finishers should be hyperarmored, and the hlh (forgot the name) finisher should be unblockable from the top (the guaranteed light at the end is nice, but not absolutely necessary).

4. Longarm should be hyperarmored right from the startup, and guarantee a top heavy (an unblockable one with execution chances). It's tracking should be improved against the earliest dodges. It would be a high risk, high reward move to punish opponents always answering everything with a dodge.

5. Top heavies should deal 40 damage, the sides can remain where they are. Blind justice should have undodgable properties to give the lb a chance to play a double or nothing on heavy parries with more success. Speed up the zone to 600ms (still a free parry). Finally, give the lawbringer a forward dodge attack: he dodges forward, hyperarmor added, and spikes the opponent with the things written down above in point 1, moves forward around 10 meters before the spike itself). Similar in speed to warlord's and centurion's, unfeintable, always strikes at the left (useless in neutral, designed against dodge roll in 1v1 and as gap closer in 4v4).

Honestly this is not good.

Simple why, because it doesn't change the fact that LB has no opener in your version.

Block Shove is gone. Neutral shove is still useless, same as Long Arm. The damage is higher but the accessability with the removal of Block Shove is even worse then now.

Bombs are already so useless, that I don't have bombs equiped anymore. Same goes for catapult.

An HH-chain would be parry deluxe since you can't even throw out a heavy from neutral, not even to think about two.

His impale run on wall should be nerfed too.

No shove after a heavy and slower movement speed ... really?

There is no trade, that is a flat out nerf.
You don't change the fact that LB has no opportunity to access the increased damage you talk about.


In my version he is strong but not broken because, there are plenty of way to counter his armoured non-parriable heavies. I just said, don't parry the heavy. That's all.

His Block Shove has NO FOLLOW-UP
Just interrupt.
And also no LB will block even near to every light (average 15dmg ).

His parry punish would lead to mindgames like dodge into gb or dodge attack, deflect, parry the slow follow-up light, etc
It is about letting the heavy guy charge for a short time.

Meanwhile he chips some damage away with blocked heavies.

The main point about my idea is, that he remains slow with little stamina as he is now.
A true heavy.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-06-2018, 04:25 PM
He would have openers, namely every heavy finisher in every chain, and guaranteed damage on shoves. He also has a 400ms top light. He would have great ways to counter every kind of attacks with these changes, he would deal big damage, would keep the very good parry counters, and I think his offense would be great. First, I wanted JJE first heavy to be unblockable too, but that might be a bit too much.

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 04:46 PM
He would have openers, namely every heavy finisher in every chain, and guaranteed damage on shoves. He also has a 400ms top light. He would have great ways to counter every kind of attacks with these changes, he would deal big damage, would keep the very good parry counters, and I think his offense would be great. First, I wanted JJE first heavy to be unblockable too, but that might be a bit too much.

He would have exactly no openers and not even he Block Shove --> worse then now.

He doesn't make it to his 3rd chain, and even his 3rd chain is just a mix-up that can be evaded.
I proposed letting him cole to his 3rd chain by not fearing to get parried.

His neutral shove doesn't land so you don't even cone to his guaranteed follow-up

The rest lands even less.

You successfully nerfed him.


Also his parry rewards are not that good, since the light stun deals only 20dmg (Shaolin gets a triple light 24dmg, Cent gets a heavy)
The impale run needs a wall or it deals only 20dmg. You want to nerf it even.
The top unblockable is only guaranteed on a parried light and deals 45dmg. Pretty average for a top heavy from a heavy class.

Oddy._.
11-06-2018, 05:14 PM
"The top unblockable is only guaranteed on a parried light and deals 45dmg. Pretty average for a top heavy from a heavy class."

Isn't it sad the Nuxia's light attack off deflect does 40dmg? Lightning fast, only a tiny poke and does only five less points damage than a 7-8ft tall fully armor clad overhead unblockable slam on someones forehead.

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 05:44 PM
"The top unblockable is only guaranteed on a parried light and deals 45dmg. Pretty average for a top heavy from a heavy class."

Isn't it sad the Nuxia's light attack off deflect does 40dmg? Lightning fast, only a tiny poke and does only five less points damage than a 7-8ft tall fully armor clad overhead unblockable slam on someones forehead.

There is really a point ...

I really hope the rework for LB is gonna make him heavy and punshy. He wears at least 70kg of metall on his body and swings a heavy 2-handed weapon and is taller then all the other Heroes.
That's why i want to him to get physically dominant but not fast.

JJ is good exception, since his OOS stamina punish is a double top heavy and deals incredible 108dmg.
What is 50dmg from a poke + wallsplatt compared to this?
A poke + wallsplatt from run (not from parry) deals only 45dmg.

Oddy._.
11-06-2018, 06:40 PM
Not only that King, but it takes a huge amount of stamina to even initiate impaling charge off parry THEN it takes stamina to run the person into the wall AND THEN it takes stamina to follow the wall-splat with an overhead heavy, that's also even considering in 4v4s if the opponent doesn't have that anti-wall splat feat active like Aramusha and Shugoki.

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 08:26 PM
The impale with wallsplatt is not OP by far.

It is simply strong, but very stamina expensive, and on parry you go instantly OOS.

UbiInsulin
11-06-2018, 08:53 PM
@Ubilnsulin. I'd hope you have played For Honor, right? If that's the case I'd like to hear an idea for a buff or rework from you... if that's even allowed?

I don't usually offer my own takes because I'm bad at the game, plus I'm not a dev.

If I could bring up a topic that I've only seen a few mention in this thread, it would probably be changes (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/91jcu4/lawbringer_tweaks_and_buffs/) to Long Arm (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9h39q9/lawbringers_longarm/).

Oddy._.
11-06-2018, 09:08 PM
I don't usually offer my own takes because I'm bad at the game, plus I'm not a dev.

Oh no no, I'm not a dev and some could say I'm bad at the game. I don't want a link from someone else. I want to hear an assessment from YOU.

Illyrian_King
11-06-2018, 09:46 PM
I don't usually offer my own takes because I'm bad at the game, plus I'm not a dev.

If I could bring up a topic that I've only seen a few mention in this thread, it would probably be changes (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/91jcu4/lawbringer_tweaks_and_buffs/) to Long Arm (https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/9h39q9/lawbringers_longarm/).

Good initiative, but the proposition is basically useless ^^

Would really be great, if the devs would finally tell us something in the Den.

At least tell us when they can tell us something.

UbiInsulin
11-06-2018, 09:51 PM
Good initiative, but the proposition is basically useless ^^

Would really be great, if the devs would finally tell us something in the Den.

At least tell us when they can tell us something.

I hear you on that. I'm letting them know that you guys would like as much info on balance as possible (and not just in terms of the new heroes, but older ones). Particularly when it comes to what we cover on Warrior's Den.

My guess is that we're waiting for the dust to settle on Marching Fire before getting into any upcoming balance changes. I'm still letting the team know that lots of people are asking for an update on the topic.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-06-2018, 09:57 PM
With my suggestion, the punishes would be increased. If we would keep the shove on blind justice, that would make light parries deal 62 damage (since that's a bit too much, I think it shouldn't chained into a shove anymore). I think if we take down the shove from blind justice, it should be a chain starter, which means at least two heavies are guaranteed- that's 85 damage on throwdown (I don't think JJ deals 108 on throwdown, nor that he should have, 85 damage is already more than half of any characters' health). By the way, the zone is guaranteed on heavy parries for 25 damage (as far as I know, I always go for lights or spikes out of comfort), that's a bit more than shaolin's, but returns him to neutral. It's less than berserker's, however, which is insanely stupid, and berserkers can continue their chains after succesful zones too.
I don't find it hard to get access to parts of my chains offensively, what I find hard now is to discomfort any of my opponents as lawbringer, since they are low block damage, and feints plus top lights can get people off guard, so it's actually not that hard to open people up if they want parries. Lawbringer's greatest weakness is the bash meta, that would be solved with my solution, and the excessive access to unblockables would make him a threat in neutral. Your solution would make him unfair against anyone with no access to bashes (especially non-assassins who don't have access to any other counter but parries, like the current centurion or shugoki, and some characters relying on parries like jj). Meanwhile, I don't think it would cause any discomfort to conquerors or wardens, conquerors would just tech all heavies with zones, superior blocks, superior heavies and superior dodges or simply would dodge out for a shieldbash, while the lawbringer would still struggle against the shieldbash spam. If I understood correctly and after taking 10 damage would also give you access to your parry punishes, then characters with high heavy parry punishes would just turtle up a bit more (like berserker with guaranteed 28 damage on any heavy parry would gladly take the trade, while some characters would barely deal more than what they took). Maybe it would be good in 4v4, maybe having access to it via feats (especially if level 4 feat, the igneus is as bad as you say).

Some expansion on my rework idea:

6. Blind justice is not chained into a shove, but acts like a chain starter.
7. Zone damage is increased to 28 (for better heavy parry punishes without walls), and finally a fix on the animation (it supposed to hit in 360 degree, it hits now in about 165).
8. JJE second heavy is unblockable from the top. Or a softfeint option to shove with the guardbreak button from any heavy opener (I am not a fun of mechanics like this though, I picked lawbringer exactly because he is a badass with a big weapon, not because he keeps bashing. That's the reason I left my warden).


But again, I am not a particularly high level player. I would find these changes vastly improving my gaming experience and I would also enjoy fighting this lawbringer, while I always hated the low level ones standing there and shoving me back if I tried anything but turtling (at least when I played pk, it's a freerun with anyone with bashes again). I, however, accept if you think that this wouldn't work on a competitive level (I have never seen anyone parrying all my heavies when I kept feinting and mixing them up, but I believe there are people capable of that).

Goat_of_Vermund
11-06-2018, 10:00 PM
I hear you on that. I'm letting them know that you guys would like as much info on balance as possible (and not just in terms of the new heroes, but older ones). Particularly when it comes to what we cover on Warrior's Den.

My guess is that we're waiting for the dust to settle on Marching Fire before getting into any upcoming balance changes. I'm still letting the team know that lots of people are asking for an update on the topic.



Thank you, we are grateful!

Illyrian_King
11-07-2018, 12:58 AM
I hear you on that. I'm letting them know that you guys would like as much info on balance as possible (and not just in terms of the new heroes, but older ones). Particularly when it comes to what we cover on Warrior's Den.

My guess is that we're waiting for the dust to settle on Marching Fire before getting into any upcoming balance changes. I'm still letting the team know that lots of people are asking for an update on the topic.

Thanks alot!
Would be really great to hear again something about rebalance/reworks.



With my suggestion, the punishes would be increased. If we would keep the shove on blind justice, that would make light parries deal 62 damage (since that's a bit too much, I think it shouldn't chained into a shove anymore). I think if we take down the shove from blind justice, it should be a chain starter, which means at least two heavies are guaranteed- that's 85 damage on throwdown (I don't think JJ deals 108 on throwdown, nor that he should have, 85 damage is already more than half of any characters' health). By the way, the zone is guaranteed on heavy parries for 25 damage (as far as I know, I always go for lights or spikes out of comfort), that's a bit more than shaolin's, but returns him to neutral. It's less than berserker's, however, which is insanely stupid, and berserkers can continue their chains after succesful zones too.

Yes, you want to increase the punishes, but again ... you offer no advanced access to really get to this punishes. The punish can be 250dmg and it would be useless if it depends on Longarm for example. Longarm is in ganks at least half-way viable (here LB is decent), but in 1vs1 a Long Arm basically never lands in higher leagues.
Same goes for neutral Shove.

What doesn't land can't profit from higher damage.
Also making it faster would just result in having more bashes and spam.



I don't find it hard to get access to parts of my chains offensively, what I find hard now is to discomfort any of my opponents as lawbringer, since they are low block damage, and feints plus top lights can get people off guard, so it's actually not that hard to open people up if they want parries. Lawbringer's greatest weakness is the bash meta, that would be solved with my solution, and the excessive access to unblockables would make him a threat in neutral.

Well look ... this is different on how good your ranking is and how hard the enemies are that you get matchmaked with.

I would really recomment you to watch (on youtube) videos of high level Lawbringer matches. Spliced is a very good example. He is one of, if not the best LB from the whole Community. He didn't make it beyond Platin in Ranked Duells, which says all.

I would not consider myself a pro by any means, but I have a really hard time with LB since a turtle can shut LB down very easily.

He has no offense and the hard feints and top lights you mentioned are no viable tool in higher plays.

LB missing offensive openers are the biggest weakness this guy has, and every real pro will confirm that.

Unblockables are no such big threat anymore, if you don't go OOS.
But you can't rely on getting the enemy OOS as LB.



Your solution would make him unfair against anyone with no access to bashes (especially non-assassins who don't have access to any other counter but parries, like the current centurion or shugoki, and some characters relying on parries like jj). Meanwhile, I don't think it would cause any discomfort to conquerors or wardens, conquerors would just tech all heavies with zones, superior blocks, superior heavies and superior dodges or simply would dodge out for a shieldbash, while the lawbringer would still struggle against the shieldbash spam. If I understood correctly and after taking 10 damage would also give you access to your parry punishes, then characters with high heavy parry punishes would just turtle up a bit more (like berserker with guaranteed 28 damage on any heavy parry would gladly take the trade, while some characters would barely deal more than what they took). Maybe it would be good in 4v4, maybe having access to it via feats (especially if level 4 feat, the igneus is as bad as you say).

Tell me a single Hero, that has no bashes and ALSO NO 400ms lights and soft-feints.
The only exceptions are the Heroes, that still need a Rework (Goki, Raider, Cent and Ara) so the problem would fix itself soon.

The vision of the devs is it to get tid of the defensive meta and every aspect of pure relying on parries. That's mostly why the reworks happen.

In my version, the Block Shove would have no follow, so light spam gets interrupted on a successful block (which can already be hard with 400ms lights) but not countered. It sets the game back to zero, and then ithe question is, who iniates first.

I don't really understand what you mean in the second half of this quote, but let me explain how I imagine the parry punish exactly:

You throw out a heavy and it gets parried --> you press guardbreak in the right moment --> LB hooks the weapon, pulls it back and pokes with the spike (10dmg)
Pure block damage of heavies would be around 6-7dmg.
10dmg parry punish would just be to get enemies away from parrying the heavy and nothing more, since blocking causes 3-4 less damage.


Some expansion on my rework idea:

6. Blind justice is not chained into a shove, but acts like a chain starter.
7. Zone damage is increased to 28 (for better heavy parry punishes without walls), and finally a fix on the animation (it supposed to hit in 360 degree, it hits now in about 165).
8. JJE second heavy is unblockable from the top. Or a softfeint option to shove with the guardbreak button from any heavy opener (I am not a fun of mechanics like this though, I picked lawbringer exactly because he is a badass with a big weapon, not because he keeps bashing. That's the reason I left my warden).


But again, I am not a particularly high level player. I would find these changes vastly improving my gaming experience and I would also enjoy fighting this lawbringer, while I always hated the low level ones standing there and shoving me back if I tried anything but turtling (at least when I played pk, it's a freerun with anyone with bashes again). I, however, accept if you think that this wouldn't work on a competitive level (I have never seen anyone parrying all my heavies when I kept feinting and mixing them up, but I believe there are people capable of that).

The problem here is again, that there is missing access to the increased punishes.

Also my idea with the parry punish is to avoid more unblockables, 400ms light spam, bashes and soft-feints.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-07-2018, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the advice! I know Spliced, I learned a lot from his and other youtubers' videos, and I always found it amazing how good they are with such a handicapped hero. What even they couldn't overcome is the bash meta, they could seemingly defeat anything else (even turtles). That is why I think the most mandatory change is to make lawbringer ways to punish bashes. The best tool for it is a dodge shove, if you dodge to the side from a shieldbash for example, it will hit the conqueror, but he can easily beat every options after it. Guaranteed damage from the dodge shove would defeat this option.
My impression of the lawbringer always was that he is slow, but incredibly strong and though, that is why I hated his low damage, lack of openers, and how he is forced to dance around like an idiot when anyone tries to bash him. I don't think he needs bash like openers, I think he should rely on unblockables, he looks strong, and maybe he needs more hyperarmor than I gave him. I really think that more unblockable heavy would solve his problems, and he can access his second part chains pretty easily by whiffing the first attack. The jje finisher is a joke however, everyone is far away at the point he is about to throw it (this might be solved with some better tracking, undodgable properties, or just more movement chance during chains, but I think most combo heavies should be unblockable).

Your solution might work this way, but only if you must commit to it before you are parried, and getting some punishment if you are not. Like pressing gb during the heavy, if the enemy parries, you thrust him, if not, no block damage, decreased damage and heavily increased stamina cost, the enemy wouldn't get any visual clue if it is trapped or not. And I think I would disable it if oos or attacking someone's external block (at least autoparries shouldn't be punished).
I thought you mean you get parried and deal damage, while the opponent still gets his parry punish, but then it is more of a trap like mechanic. It should also defeat some other counters them, some characters would suffer against this lawbringer, while the conqueror has five more different ways to counter you.
Block shove is not a fair mechanic, some characters heavily rely on their chains, interrupting it just by a block is not just unfair, it would make the game boring too. Lights are interrupted on block, shove or not, heavies are very risky to throw out, especially against a lawbringer, and there are only a few characters having fast lights after heavies. Since it would end any chains, it would encourage to keep spamming lights, as it does now. Hyperarmor, range and parrying should counter 400ms lights, blocking already stops their chains. It would also encourage more safe bashing, which is the bane of lawbringers.

The current longarm is indeed useless sometimes, though if you are unexpected enough or use it as a counter, it works surprisingly well (I once caught a shaman midair trying to bite me with it, she rage quitted before my heavy landed, that was hilarious). With 40 damage and hyperarmor added, longarm would beat very early side dodges and even dodge attacks. It shouldn't be a spam move, but a nice addition to his kit that used as a read/counter tool. Still would be better than aramusha fullblocks (does anyone uses that?). The forward shove mostly doesn't land, but that is hyperarmored too, and has low recovery, only dodge attacks can punish them, so I don't think it's totally useless either. If you dodge forward and they light, you trade with them.

Oddy._.
11-07-2018, 03:20 PM
Here's an idea. Why not treat LBs combos sort of like his Swift Justice Finisher where at the end of the combo, if on a successful overhead heavy LB can perform a light attack to sneak in an extra stunning tap with a little bit more damage. What I suggest if they rework his combos to incorporate that style of extra damage BUT treat it like a reactable light attack from the opposite direction where his heavy came from. Even adding to that idea, why not make it possible to do that even if his heavy is simply blocked?

EDIT: To help get the idea, if an LB swings a heavy say with his right arm being the leading arm (So up by the head of the axe) his left arm, being the arm at the base of the pole could then slide up the shaft to the middle and push out the pommel end of the pole towards the opposite side of their opponent. Basically using his heavy as sort of a distraction tool to lead into a really quick, low damage, stunning light attack which can help in letting LB put pressure on his blinded opponent without the use of unblockables that force a reaction or, stupidly absurd light attack chains.

Roseguard_Cpt
11-07-2018, 04:52 PM
As much as I hate to be "that guy" I gotta point out the big issue here, if Lawbringer got a Parry Counter Mechanic I would main LB and only throw heavies. Because it would be so safe. You don't parry, you take chip, you do parry, I hit you instead with the new mechanic, you dodge, I feint into GB. A parry counter wouldn't end the turtle meta, just change it because now my heavies would be a turtle move. Not to mention with me spamming heavy I might accidentally get a parry. Sure a parry takes my stam but I can just wait for it to come back and use shove o my opponent can't get to me.

KSI_TheMadKing
11-07-2018, 06:22 PM
So I've been playing the LB sonce the start of the game and this us just my opinion on the hero and what could maybe make him better but not to powerful.

1) change his zone its pretty bad.
2) his shove on block should only work on a light block the combo already got interrupted and then he can counter and keep it with the mixup he has.
3) his neutral shove is slow and it shouldnt be as fast as the conc. But make it faster with the same mixups as before.
4) I know people want The last light in his LHL combo to be speed up and I do to. But could I propose that the last light from the right or left gets turned to a impaling charge that does half the damag of a light. If this I'd a possiblity then it shouldnt be speed up to much. Its should be like wardens charge The guy is big and should be able to control the area hes in. If it hits the top it does regular light damage.
6) give him more health. He by all accounts should be the tankest hero in the game with full plate armor.
7) give his like one or two new combo.
8) give him hyper armor on his unblockables
9) combining 2 and 7 if you do give him new combos give him stuff to control the area hes in.
10) give him more reach.

This is just my opinion it's not better nor is it worse than anyone's else's here it's just what I would like to see. Or something along that line.

Illyrian_King
11-07-2018, 08:01 PM
As much as I hate to be "that guy" I gotta point out the big issue here, if Lawbringer got a Parry Counter Mechanic I would main LB and only throw heavies. Because it would be so safe. You don't parry, you take chip, you do parry, I hit you instead with the new mechanic, you dodge, I feint into GB. A parry counter wouldn't end the turtle meta, just change it because now my heavies would be a turtle move. Not to mention with me spamming heavy I might accidentally get a parry. Sure a parry takes my stam but I can just wait for it to come back and use shove o my opponent can't get to me.

Well look at it ... you can not throw out just heavies, because it is there is no heavy-heavy combo except Judge Jury Executioner (LHH), which can easily be shut with a simple back dodge or roll.
Throwing out heavy (no combo), heavy (no combo) would be way too slow and give too much space for basically every kind of counter. If you don't combo --> you are open due too slow hit recovery.
It is always linked to a slower 500ms light you can simply block, parry, dodge attack, bash or deflect (since lights can not be feinted) and end the chain.


Once the chain is off, the LB is too slow to quickly get back to combat. Here the eneny can take initiative and fight back.
Here LB could still try to use his Block Shove without follow-up. Just to get time and distance to recover and set the game back to neutral.

These armoured unparriable heavies can still be deflected easily. A deflect happens this late into the hit, that it can not be feinted anymore --> reaction possible

Heroes with bashes have an even easier time. Except Goki, Raider, Cent and Aramusha (basically those who still need a rework) have pretty good offense to use the vulnerable moments and do effective pressure.

I want to fix Lawbringer in a new interesting way, without giving him more bashes, light spam, soft feints and all that stuff already everybody else has. It would make his WHOLE kit viable again and even his neutral attacks.

Soldier_of_Dawn
11-08-2018, 04:05 PM
I had a different take on unparryable attacks when discussing Shugoki's rework. Tell me what you think:

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1943772-I-feel-for-Shugoki-players/page4


UNPARRYABLE ATTACKS

As suggested by content creator ILLEST TRUTH a while back, consider introducing unparryable attacks into the game. These attacks could be exclusive to heavy characters and heavy hybrids like the Lawbringer. Giving the Shugoki this type of attack first would make him unique as well as a force, depending on the implementation.

Other characters that could have unparryable attacks include the Lawbringer and the Warlord. Conqueror is strong enough in his current state so any more buffs would unbalance the game further. Jiang Jun shouldn't have these attacks to begin with since he is the fastest heavy in the game, his Sifu Poise makes him very viable, and he already has a high damage rate.


How would Unparryable Attacks Work?

Unparryable attacks would have the following traits:

1) Of course, they cannot be parried or deflected. However, they can still be blocked, dodged, and absorbed by hyper armor.

2) They have the same effect as the Punch Through feat where they do extra block damage.

3) Unparryable attacks would be uninterruptable.

4) The attack would have a specific color to indicate that it is an unparryable attack being performed such as white, purple, or yellow. I would save green for attacks that heal. Red maybe too similar to unblockable attacks.

5) Opponents performing dodge blocks, superior blocks, or attacks with superior block would be shortly staggered by unparryable attacks and still receive Punch Through damage. Special attacks that follow dodge blocks or dodges with superior block cannot be performed due to the opponent being staggered.


Which Attacks from the Shugoki would be Unparryable?

I suggest the following:

a) Crashing Thunder.

b) Pre-charged heavy attacks but not fully charged ones where they become unblockable.

c) The first strike from the Shugoki's Zone attack.

d) Top heavy finishers - unless the Shugoki is given an infinite chain attack.

e) Unparryable attacks from neutral and in chains that fully connect can be followed by a Headbutt. It would also be ideal to follow heavies from his zone attack and Crashing Thunder with a Headbutt as well.


Logic Behind Unparryable Attacks

The logic behind unparryable attacks and making them exclusive to heavy and heavy hybrid characters is the following

i) Heavy tank characters, like the Shugoki, should able to perform attacks where the opponent would not be physically strong enough to parry it or block it without getting hurt due to the amount of sheer force from the attack.

The Shugoki is physically the strongest character in the game so dealing with the full force of his strongest attacks via physical contact should come at a price. Most diligent martial artists try to avoid the full force of a blow either to avoid injury or wearing out their equipment sooner than necessary.

ii) Players quite often, and ironically, turtle against the Shugoki and try to counter him and exploit his weaknesses. Giving him unparryable attacks would allow him to apply more pressure on his opponents and take more risks.

iii) In general, unparryable attacks would be good tool against turtles along with unblockables, undodgeables, and the new traps. Expanding this list without creating exploits would allow players to chose more specific and unique playstyles rather than certain ones often dictated by turtles.