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CSaunders95
11-03-2018, 01:09 PM
Edit: I propose balancing JJ by removing his ability to regen stamina while out of sifu stance. Personally I think this would balance the character a lot more and give him a niche which would be unique in the for honor character roster.

Because currently



He's a heavy.

He has hidden stance.
He has the extremely quick lights
Has quick dodge attacks which can be cancelled into the other direction depending on what his opponent does.
He has quick unblockables
He has area of effect damage


He does not have a single move, that once committed too, has to follow through with.
There's no way you can possibly bait him without being an extremely top tear player!

The only thing he doesn't have in his kit is bleed! And that's only because it'd make nobushi obsolete!

IAmOddGirl
11-03-2018, 01:26 PM
that stance actually is to regen stamina You can't break into an attack from it like Nobushi can

CSaunders95
11-03-2018, 01:32 PM
Lol, yeah your correct he can only zone from it, however it still has a dodge property much like hidden stance. The entrance and exit time to it is also extremely quick, combine that with the fact HE GAINS STAMINA WHILE IN IT AND CAN USE IT WHILE OOS and he basically its got infinite use. Unlike NOBUSHIS which has 2 uses before she's exhausted. And has slow stamina regen.


The whole point of hidden stance on nobushi is to use it as a dodge property. Which JJ also has.

Plus he moves back from it, meaning its usually out of range of short armed assassins, unlike nobushi who stays on the same spot.

So JJs sifu stance + sifu stance + sifu stance combo basically means he's reset the fight and has full stamina.

Devils-_-legacy
11-03-2018, 01:33 PM
that stance actually is to regen stamina You can't break into an attack from it like Nobushi can
No but still has I frames like hidden stance and can be entered from os

IAmOddGirl
11-03-2018, 01:38 PM
well I should hope you can enter it from OOS since stamina regen is it's primary purpose. Also it is quite easy to read it and then get a free guard break on him or use your gap closer to exploit his vulnerability.

CSaunders95
11-03-2018, 01:46 PM
well I should hope you can enter it from OOS since stamina regen is it's primary purpose. Also it is quite easy to read it and then get a free guard break on him or use your gap closer to exploit his vulnerability.

His stamina regen is probably the fastest WITHOUT it.

Using that logic

Nobushis primary purpose of hidden stance is to hide her guard stance, which according to the tutorial is conveyed as that.

But who the hell uses it for that!? They don't. They us it for the dodge property.

IAmOddGirl
11-03-2018, 01:50 PM
His stamina regen while no using that stance is pretty normal actually. Also using that logic you must not have tried such a move vs highlander or another JJ

SangLong524
11-03-2018, 01:51 PM
His stamina regen is probably the fastest WITHOUT it.

Using that logic

Nobushis primary purpose of hidden stance is to hide her guard stance, which according to the tutorial is conveyed as that.

But who the hell uses it for that!? They don't. They us it for the dodge property.
JJ regen is. The fastest without stance?!
I sincerely call this utterly bullsh*t. Ignorant bullsh*t.
And i see plenty of JJs die just as often as every other “underpowered” heroes.
No, i’m afraid JJ is not OP, Oh Pee.

CSaunders95
11-03-2018, 02:14 PM
JJ regen is. The fastest without stance?!
I sincerely call this utterly bullsh*t. Ignorant bullsh*t.
And i see plenty of JJs die just as often as every other ďunderpoweredĒ heroes.
No, iím afraid JJ is not OP, Oh Pee.

And what rep were they? Someone who is below rep5 can't really be classed as someone who's got to grips with the character properly. After facing a fair few rep 6-10 JJs, the moveset can be completely abused.

It's the same as if someone picked up kensei and was rep 3 with him, he'd probability get absolutely destroyed. Get a rep 40 or so kensei and he can be quite a bit to handle.

Same with JJ, play someone who has got the feel of him and he can absolutely annihilate a team.


The thing is, your comparing high rep players who have mastered their movesets to players who have barely learnt all the combos.

What should be happening is they should be dieing MORE than the others, however if they're breaking even before they've even got the hang of him, something is horribly wrong.

Herbstlicht
11-03-2018, 04:49 PM
I felt so very early and those days I am pretty convinced. JJ is too strong, at least on console. It's incredible how many people play him despite saying he is ugly and they like there mains more. But he really is incredible dominant in teamgames and outshines kensei. I think the problem is less the moveset but the numbers. Speed is ok and even needed for 1on 1. But his damage combined with speed, moveset and sifu poise is too much for teamgames.

BarneyTheNoob
11-03-2018, 05:02 PM
all of the new heroes are broken, all of them have side-dodge attacks which is utter ********, all of them have quick lights and weirdly timed heavies, most have soft feints and damage for days, what old original heroes have except for kensei ? nothing only turtling and dont get me started on shugoki and lawbringer, those poor bois dont even have openers

SangLong524
11-03-2018, 05:19 PM
And what rep were they? Someone who is below rep5 can't really be classed as someone who's got to grips with the character properly. After facing a fair few rep 6-10 JJs, the moveset can be completely abused.

It's the same as if someone picked up kensei and was rep 3 with him, he'd probability get absolutely destroyed. Get a rep 40 or so kensei and he can be quite a bit to handle.

Same with JJ, play someone who has got the feel of him and he can absolutely annihilate a team.


The thing is, your comparing high rep players who have mastered their movesets to players who have barely learnt all the combos.

What should be happening is they should be dieing MORE than the others, however if they're breaking even before they've even got the hang of him, something is horribly wrong.
regarding high rep JJs, don't you think it's too early to say anything? MF out for 2 weeks (?), and open to all just a few days.High rep JJ now would be around 10 to 20 reps? those are too few to say "JJ is OP". when you say, JJ's moveset is easy to grasp and abused, it maybe true but if you personally get used to USING those as well, it can be countered. I like JJ moveset, solid and functional, unlike Tiandi's fancy but not working, or too difficult to pull off.
the only thing that can possible be abused without retaliation is the the Unblockable Counter and possible the Choke. And good riddance if you eat it. Personally, i like it. Finally something worthy of a counter, not that lackluster light counter of lawbringer. However, I have notice that while being choked, the victim is practical invincible somehow. Attacks don't damage but revenge builds up. I haven't seen a good offensive combo out the Choke, unless to give the teammates time to regroup.
Sifu stance is much better than hidden stance regarding it's dodge property, yes. But, it's free guardbreak without a chance of CGB. Plus, JJ's hitbox is huge, which is his advantages as well as his deadly weakness. Back him into a corner, get close and he's dead. Even his UB counter will likely hit the obstacles and stagger. just watch out for forward dash heavy, it's likely a leg kick.
i don't see what the fuss is about. JJ is not OP. In a brawl, he's a beast as stray hit parried can lead to unblockable and unpunishable zone. Alone, he's not that terrifying. Kill him first, and you're good.
Finally, light speed is indeed abnormally fast. However, internet quality play a big role in this. Orochi's lights and Valk's land almost instantly, JJ's is a bit slower. I'm still learning to expect light through their body movements instead.

Helnekromancer
11-03-2018, 05:57 PM
I play on Xbox, I hate his Sifu Poise, not the regen part but the annoying back dodge (well the regen is annoying but not as bad as the back dodge), it's a stamina-less Hidden Stance. I can side dodge his side heavy or zone and miss my attack completely because he dodged my counter attack simply by using Sifu Poise.

They gutted all back dodges in the game and then give this old man a cute little back dodge to spam. It's very annoying.

Dumping his entire stamina bar on me and back pedaling with Sifu Poise to get it all back within 2-3 seconds is ridiculous. His attacks and animations don't line up, his damage is high and his speed is high, how is this guy a Heavy? Why does his Shin kick and Slap wallsplat? Nothing about him is slow, other than his heavies who start with super armor and end with unblockable that can also be cancel into poise and from that poise throw out a fast zone.

If they shorten or remove the dash back on the poise he wouldn't feel so cheap and dirty. but right now fighting that old man as a Nobushi or PK is really very stressful.

Herbstlicht
11-03-2018, 06:23 PM
Hmm. Just count the numbers. JJ is dominating Dominion and breach. He has it all, he has stuff that's unique and that brings back things like backdodge normalization should have fixed. And - again on console - his lights in chain or Dodge are ultra fast. add high damage and he really is a problem. Not that I dislike him. He is the only heavy I enjoy playing. And he is the character I perform best with though I only learned his basics. Having mained nobushi for a long time might have helped, but at least let me state this: in comparison to nobushi, especially considering like all skill levels and not just the professionals, JJ beats out nobushi Soo hard it's just ridiculous. What I would wish for him would be lower damage lights, specialy in dodge. Further, make him easier punishable. Not by much, but he can play incredibly safe leaving you only guessing. Like zone attack out of sifu slightly delayed for easier GB.

UbiInsulin
11-03-2018, 06:59 PM
Thanks everyone for the discussion and the various suggested changes. I'll track this thread.

Goat_of_Vermund
11-03-2018, 08:55 PM
I don't know how to nerf him, but he must be nerfed some way. He is way too fast, has wide attacks, soft feints, has good damage, and he won't even lose his stamina (while his parry punishes are among the bests). In duels, he is low-S tier, a conqueror, berserker or warden would still be stronger than them. In 4v4 however... well, we are in the second centurion meta. He is extremely good at ganking, and the better ones casually destroy full teams.

Velentix
11-03-2018, 09:47 PM
I spent a good 45 min against him in training yesterday, and it seemed like his animations were kinda out of wack. anyone else see this?

Herbstlicht
11-03-2018, 09:51 PM
Hmm. In my opinion, the smartest move would be to nerf his damage by a meaningful amount and then work on smarter changes. His defence is incredible strong, so his counter punish and feint game. He is a little bit like the monk in this case. Many options, forces reactions. But his defence might be the best in the game. And his damage is way higher.

Smarter nerfs might be a nerf to zone speed. And with it longer GB vulnerability so you can punish him for his backpaddling. Right now it's very hard for a lot of heroes to track him when he paddles, it's fast enough to avoided whole chains of certain characters. The softfeinted light after the unblockable should be reduced in damage. In a normal breach match on PS4, you have to guess. And even if you guess right in the case of a feint, it can still hit you because you changed your guard too late. It's 400 Ms. Another thing to consider would be an internal cool down of like 2 or 3 seconds for sifu stance.

Another aspect btw. He was way slower in beta. People said 600 Ms lights is too slow. I agree. But then fix it on Highlander and shugoki as well please.

Anyway, JJ has an awesome moveset and is fun to play. The way you designed him, he would stay viable even with less damage and / or speed.

SixAxe505
11-03-2018, 10:03 PM
I see too many users, the same users, defending broken characters and their mechanics on this forum. Day 1 and everyone knew JJ and Shaolin were broken. Tiandi is fast, in an almost broken way but not really. Everyone knew Nuxia had power, but nothing to really back it up. These things were easily identifiable. Now the characters are not unbeatable, but that's like saying the the weekly quest is not unbeatable. For virtually the entire cast in a solo situation it is. These characters are the same. Consider the following:

If Skill level is equal between 2 people, one is shugoki and one is JJ, who wins?

If Skill level is slightly tilted, shugo is higher jj is lower, who wins?

If there is a massive gap, shugo is godly and JJ is noobish, who wins?

Now reverse the roles, who wins all the time?

Imbalance is easy to see from the moment you see it. Now we have to consider one or two options. Either 1. They are balanced and the rest of the cast is underpowered, so a massive overhaul needs to happen, or the rest of the cast is balanced and these guys are broken and need to be toned down. I won't pretend I know how to balance them out move wise, but sifu poise in OOS needs to go. Special moved should not be able to be used when OOS and no one should have a way to deny the punish and pressure of going OOS now that gear stats are gone. Ubisoft can't play dumb here. They knew what they were doing, but it's high time to fix it.

Brutal_DaDo
11-03-2018, 10:34 PM
Man the new heroes have been out for like a bit more than two weeks, tiandi can be hit out of his doges and even guard broken due to his heavies being damn slow, his kick itís just for your teammates to capitalize on it if timed right outside of that itís useless, shaolin if you block his attacks heíll have a hard time entering qi stance and theyíll resort to that stupid triple poke, the only thing iíd remove from jj is entering sifuís pose when out of stamina other than that i donít think heís broken, there are older characters who deals more damage with their lights than the one of jj he can be guard brokes as soon as he start his dodging heavy, canít cg when he goes in sifuís pose, his kick works only in 4v4 in 1v1 everyone dodges it and can be guard broken as soon as he starts the forward heavy, nuxia.....canít deal with her spammy lights and they deal massive dammage if she manage tocland the 3 of them. This seems to me more of a problem of not wanting to put time to learn the new charachters, shaman, berserker are more of a pain to fight than the new heroes in my opinion.

DefiledDragon
11-03-2018, 10:38 PM
I spent a good 45 min against him in training yesterday, and it seemed like his animations were kinda out of wack. anyone else see this?

That's because they are. Some of his attacks connect before his weapon touches you.

SixAxe505
11-03-2018, 11:56 PM
This seems to me more of a problem of not wanting to put time to learn the new charachters, shaman, berserker are more of a pain to fight than the new heroes in my opinion.

Incorrect. We all know Shaman and Berserker have very cheesy and fast moves and the ability to soft feint and hard feint very late into their moves which make them monstrosities to deal with. This is not new information, but it's also something Ubisoft decided not to change. Don't pretend like people didn't complain about it and point it out as well. The issue now is the new characters because they are new and everyone is using them so it's very easy to see exactly what is "too" powerful because everyone is doing the same thing. As I have said before they are not unbeatable, but that's not to say they are not overpowered. The sheer amount of work that has to be put in by heroes with inferior moves and options to beat them is the problem.

Wookiescantfly
11-04-2018, 01:01 AM
Fun Fact:

JJ Sifu regen time while not OOS from 1% stamina to 100% is 800ms. While OOS this time is 1,700ms.

I do think he needs GB vulnerability while exiting Sifu to make it more balanced, but 1700ms is a long time to just let someone stand there.

Amaterasu-90
11-04-2018, 01:25 AM
GitGud.

CHUBBYMAN328
11-04-2018, 02:17 AM
His stamina regen is probably the fastest WITHOUT it.

Using that logic

Nobushis primary purpose of hidden stance is to hide her guard stance, which according to the tutorial is conveyed as that.

But who the hell uses it for that!? They don't. They us it for the dodge property.

No that would be highlander or kensei

RexXZ347
11-04-2018, 03:39 AM
His attacks are not timed with his damage input. Ubisoft devs intended this to attract noobs and thinking they are really strong. So now us veteran players need to suffer for their idiocity.

Knight_Raime
11-04-2018, 07:58 AM
Edit: I propose balancing JJ by removing his ability to regen stamina while out of sifu stance. Personally I think this would balance the character a lot more and give him a niche which would be unique in the for honor character roster.

Because currently



He's a heavy.

He has hidden stance.
He has the extremely quick lights
Has quick dodge attacks which can be cancelled into the other direction depending on what his opponent does.
He has quick unblockables
He has area of effect damage


He does not have a single move, that once committed too, has to follow through with.
There's no way you can possibly bait him without being an extremely top tear player!

The only thing he doesn't have in his kit is bleed! And that's only because it'd make nobushi obsolete!

No. All of his attacks drain massive stamina to use. And considering quite a bit of them are heavies any time they're parried he loses even more. They'ed have to rebalance his stamina usage. Which would then imbalance his attacks as they're both wide sweeping and hard hitting. So no. It wouldn't balance him. It would massively gimp him and they'ed have to basically rework his entire kit.

"He's a heavy."
Class system means next to nothing and hasn't for several months. Even if there was any significant importance to it the game is attempting to be a competitive fighter. Something that would not gel with a class archetype system.

"He has hidden stance."
Nothing about his sifu's stance is like hidden stance barring the fact that it has a dodge property. There are several moves that have this. Further more it's worse than HS in every way sans stamina management and the ability to use it while OOS. Both incredibly niche. He can't dodge out of it. He has a forced time to sit in it and a recovery time after. Meaning it's very suseptible to in combo hits. and it's GB vulnerable. Not to mention it has no counter option outside of throwing his zone. Which is a slow 600ms attack.

"He has the extremely quick lights"
All of his lights sans the one he can soft feint into from his side dodge heavy are 500ms. Nearly every hero in the game has 500ms lights. It's the standard. And the 400ms light is extremely telegraphed due to how long and telegraphed his side dodge attack is.

"Has quick dodge attacks which can be cancelled into the other direction depending on what his opponent does."
His side dodge heavy is 900ms and his top is 1000ms. Those are not fast. You're speaking of his side dodge attack which can be soft feinted into a 400ms light which I already commented on.

"He has quick unblockables."
His unblockables outside of his parry into zone are 900ms. Which is standard speed for unblockables. His zone after parry is 500ms. But it's guaranteed so it's not like you can avoid it. Parry counters are guaranteed attacks. His shin kick unblockable is 400ms. But you can dodge it on reaction by dodging the same time you'd avoid the dash top heavy. It's a late dodge. And he can't do anything to counter that.

"He has area of effect damage."
Which is his gimmick. Bugged anyway though. his side heavy finishers on the left side whiff very often. And due to his aoe he struggles to fight in rooms or near cover.

"He does not have a single move, that once committed too, has to follow through with."
Factually incorrect. He can only sifu poise chain openers. Meaning a raw heavy or a light from neutral. He can't sifu cancel his chain finishers or his zone. He can cancel the recovery after using any move though.

If he is using sifu's poise often, especially to dodge attacks just follow up with the next hit in your combo. He can't do anything about it. Feinting into GB will also catch him since he can't tech GB's in the stance. His side dodge attack suffers the same fate as Tiandi's dodge heavy. meaning in combo hits and wide sweeping hits can smack him out of it. JJ has no viable offense against decent players.

His damage profile is legit the only imbalanced thing about him. And people struggle to deal with him due to his weird animations and the fact that some of his moves are bugged animation wise. Meaning he's doing damage before his weapon connects. (nobushi's zone used to have this issue as well.) Once that's fixed and people actually get used to his animations he'll be a joke outside of team fights/ganks.

CSaunders95
11-04-2018, 02:18 PM
No. All of his attacks drain massive stamina to use. And considering quite a bit of them are heavies any time they're parried he loses even more. They'ed have to rebalance his stamina usage. Which would then imbalance his attacks as they're both wide sweeping and hard hitting. So no. It wouldn't balance him. It would massively gimp him and they'ed have to basically rework his entire kit.

Dude, his stamina regen is incredibly fast without sifu stance. This is exactly my point, his attacks are both wide sweeping and hard hitting, yet has the fastest stamina regen in the game, there's no downside! Which means it can't possibly be balanced.
The trade off should be he has to manage his stamina to be effective. Which removing all stamina regen out of sifu stance would do. Otherwise he has no negatives to compensate for his high damage output.

For example the shugokis demon embrace, high risk, high reward, you miss, you get punished hugely. Should be the same with JJ. If you just spam you should be forced to go into sifu stance. Forcing him to use it in his combos means he has the downside he badly needs which would open him for counter attack.



He's a heavy."
Class system means next to nothing and hasn't for several months. Even if there was any significant importance to it the game is attempting to be a competitive fighter. Something that would not gel with a class archetype system.

So because the class system means next to nothing currently, we should make it mean even less, correct? That's flawed completely.
Your wrong, generally the class system indicates the health to damage output speed ratio of the chosen character, and if you look at the roster, is generally correct. Heavy being the most health and the slowest damage output, Assassin being the fastest damage output but less health. With vanguard in between. Hybrids are a mixture between two of those 3 categories which in turn borrow traits from both. If you look at the feats available for all the hybrids, you will find they will be a mixture of 2 of the feats available for one of those 3 classes.
Please point out to me any characters that don't conform to this system? As I can't see any.




He has hidden stance."
Nothing about his sifu's stance is like hidden stance barring the fact that it has a dodge property. There are several moves that have this. Further more it's worse than HS in every way sans stamina management and the ability to use it while OOS. Both incredibly niche. He can't dodge out of it. He has a forced time to sit in it and a recovery time after. Meaning it's very suseptible to in combo hits. and it's GB vulnerable. Not to mention it has no counter option outside of throwing his zone. Which is a slow 600ms attack.


Right 600ms first off the bat isn't slow. A nobushis top heavy is slow.

Name me one other move other than hidden stance or sifu poise that has a dodge property attached to the backwards guard stance, exactly there isn't one.
Now, sifu poise is actually far superior to nobushis hidden stance and I'll break it down for you.


Sifu stance-
Has dodge property combined with back doge property, when exited instantly and re entered, same happens and is then out of range of next attack in opponents combo, rinse and repeat forever.

Hidden stance- Has dodge property, stays in same location, meaning light combos cancel out nobushis counter attack. As still in range.

Sifu stance - Can't counter guard break in it, however due to the back dodge property, the opponent must first dodge forward to be in range of a guard break, by which time he can of counter attacked with his zone.

Hidden stance--Can counter guardbreak, however the stamina used to enter hidden stance is still taken and you are removed from hidden stance.


Sifu stance - Can be used infinitely as takes no stamina, plus stamina regen from completely empty is sped up.

Hidden stance - Can be used a total of twice before out of stamina.

Sifu stance - Can't be guard broken during animation of entry or exit of sifu stance.

Hidden stance - Can be guard broken at any time

I think it's obvious which is the better one.



"He has the extremely quick lights"
All of his lights sans the one he can soft feint into from his side dodge heavy are 500ms. Nearly every hero in the game has 500ms lights. It's the standard. And the 400ms light is extremely telegraphed due to how long and telegraphed his side dodge attack is.

Nearly every character has quick light now your correct, however your are completely incorrect on how telegraphed it is.
His side dodge soft faint can be cancelled literally just before his actual attack lands, meaning the reaction time to switch has to be pre guessed and on console, this is nigh on impossible.


His side dodge heavy is 900ms and his top is 1000ms. Those are not fast. You're speaking of his side dodge attack which can be soft feinted into a 400ms light which I already commented on.[/B]

Yes your correct, the build-up is slow, however when either attack comes you have 400ms to get the correct side. It's way to fast for what is a confirmed hit if the opponent tries to dodge/deflect it.
Plus on console, this means you have to yank your analog stick to the opposing side in under 400ms. Combine this with assassins guard and your screwed.


His unblockables outside of his parry into zone are 900ms. Which is standard speed for unblockables. His zone after parry is 500ms. But it's guaranteed so it's not like you can avoid it. Parry counters are guaranteed attacks. His shin kick unblockable is 400ms. But you can dodge it on reaction by dodging the same time you'd avoid the dash top heavy. It's a late dodge. And he can't do anything to counter that.[/B]

His shin kick is 400ms exactly, which if hit leads to a lot of damage, the thing is, if it was this on its own, its not such a problem, however combine it with all the above problems I've addressed and is yet another 400ms you have to second guess on console. There's soo many different possibilities that he can do which are all very close to a 50/50


Which is his gimmick. Bugged anyway though. his side heavy finishers on the left side whiff very often. And due to his aoe he struggles to fight in rooms or near cover.[/B]

A gimmick on top of an extensive list of already powerful moves which just adds to the fire. If it was his only gimmick, yes, wouldn't be a problem, however, it's not the only thing he has and this just makes him worse.


Factually incorrect. He can only sifu poise chain openers. Meaning a raw heavy or a light from neutral. He can't sifu cancel his chain finishers or his zone. He can cancel the recovery after using any move though.[/B]

If he is using sifu's poise often, especially to dodge attacks just follow up with the next hit in your combo. He can't do anything about it. Feinting into GB will also catch him since he can't tech GB's in the stance. His side dodge attack suffers the same fate as Tiandi's dodge heavy. meaning in combo hits and wide sweeping hits can smack him out of it. JJ has no viable offense against decent players.

His damage profile is legit the only imbalanced thing about him. And people struggle to deal with him due to his weird animations and the fact that some of his moves are bugged animation wise. Meaning he's doing damage before his weapon connects. (nobushi's zone used to have this issue as well.) Once that's fixed and people actually get used to his animations he'll be a joke outside of team fights/ganks.

Like I said, because of sifu stances back dodge property, most attacks in a combo will miss him again, unless its an undodgable attack which only a few in the roster have access too.
Also like I said, hes not in range of most guardbreaks.

If you want to see exactly what I mean,
Set up a custom game, a duel with a level 3 JJ bit and pick a character from the original roster before marching fire, and you will see what I mean.

I was trying to practice against one today as a shaman, guy went into sifu stance, guardbreak didn't reach him, guardbreaked again, bot exited and re-entered sifu stance, guardbreak missed and then he did it for a 3rd time.

The problem is if you break down, just one of his moves, it's not too bad, however, you combine them all, and he just has too much, too quick.

SangLong524
11-04-2018, 02:27 PM
Given your vehement protest against sifu stance, i have to ask:
Have you played JJ yet?
When i play JJ (rep 8 now), i have to be careful with every moves, mix in with feints and baits and occasional use of Sifu stance. Level 2 and 3 bots manage to dodge and block most of my raw attacks, they all attempt to guardbreak as i try to enter the stance. So, to pull it off in the heat of battle isnt a easy feat. There are a lot to learn from bots.
When i play PvP it’s the same. Only the people with little to no knowledge of playing as and against JJ get hit without mind game. Admitedly, in a brawl, it is much easier to kill everyone.

Kliftheone
11-04-2018, 04:23 PM
He is in every way so flawed designed, you can dodge every mix up he has in a 1v1. yet you cannot attack him with out giving him the advantage. he has insane punishes, waaay too much I-frames. I hope they just nurf him to the ground both in terms of hero and in terms of feat. When they have time to give him a soild rework then we can talk again.

Herbstlicht
11-04-2018, 04:33 PM
Well I feel there is at least consent on one thing. His numbers seem to be overtuned.

Blitzwarrior771
11-04-2018, 04:43 PM
Yeah I try jj and two heavy attacks drain all his stamina . He canít chain you to death as aramusha can do .

Knight_Raime
11-04-2018, 07:43 PM
Dude, his stamina regen is incredibly fast without sifu stance. This is exactly my point, his attacks are both wide sweeping and hard hitting, yet has the fastest stamina regen in the game, there's no downside! Which means it can't possibly be balanced.
The trade off should be he has to manage his stamina to be effective. Which removing all stamina regen out of sifu stance would do. Otherwise he has no negatives to compensate for his high damage output.

For example the shugokis demon embrace, high risk, high reward, you miss, you get punished hugely. Should be the same with JJ. If you just spam you should be forced to go into sifu stance. Forcing him to use it in his combos means he has the downside he badly needs which would open him for counter attack.



So because the class system means next to nothing currently, we should make it mean even less, correct? That's flawed completely.
Your wrong, generally the class system indicates the health to damage output speed ratio of the chosen character, and if you look at the roster, is generally correct. Heavy being the most health and the slowest damage output, Assassin being the fastest damage output but less health. With vanguard in between. Hybrids are a mixture between two of those 3 categories which in turn borrow traits from both. If you look at the feats available for all the hybrids, you will find they will be a mixture of 2 of the feats available for one of those 3 classes.
Please point out to me any characters that don't conform to this system? As I can't see any.




Right 600ms first off the bat isn't slow. A nobushis top heavy is slow.

Name me one other move other than hidden stance or sifu poise that has a dodge property attached to the backwards guard stance, exactly there isn't one.
Now, sifu poise is actually far superior to nobushis hidden stance and I'll break it down for you.


Sifu stance-
Has dodge property combined with back doge property, when exited instantly and re entered, same happens and is then out of range of next attack in opponents combo, rinse and repeat forever.

Hidden stance- Has dodge property, stays in same location, meaning light combos cancel out nobushis counter attack. As still in range.

Sifu stance - Can't counter guard break in it, however due to the back dodge property, the opponent must first dodge forward to be in range of a guard break, by which time he can of counter attacked with his zone.

Hidden stance--Can counter guardbreak, however the stamina used to enter hidden stance is still taken and you are removed from hidden stance.


Sifu stance - Can be used infinitely as takes no stamina, plus stamina regen from completely empty is sped up.

Hidden stance - Can be used a total of twice before out of stamina.

Sifu stance - Can't be guard broken during animation of entry or exit of sifu stance.

Hidden stance - Can be guard broken at any time

I think it's obvious which is the better one.



Nearly every character has quick light now your correct, however your are completely incorrect on how telegraphed it is.
His side dodge soft faint can be cancelled literally just before his actual attack lands, meaning the reaction time to switch has to be pre guessed and on console, this is nigh on impossible.



Yes your correct, the build-up is slow, however when either attack comes you have 400ms to get the correct side. It's way to fast for what is a confirmed hit if the opponent tries to dodge/deflect it.
Plus on console, this means you have to yank your analog stick to the opposing side in under 400ms. Combine this with assassins guard and your screwed.



His shin kick is 400ms exactly, which if hit leads to a lot of damage, the thing is, if it was this on its own, its not such a problem, however combine it with all the above problems I've addressed and is yet another 400ms you have to second guess on console. There's soo many different possibilities that he can do which are all very close to a 50/50



A gimmick on top of an extensive list of already powerful moves which just adds to the fire. If it was his only gimmick, yes, wouldn't be a problem, however, it's not the only thing he has and this just makes him worse.



Like I said, because of sifu stances back dodge property, most attacks in a combo will miss him again, unless its an undodgable attack which only a few in the roster have access too.
Also like I said, hes not in range of most guardbreaks.

If you want to see exactly what I mean,
Set up a custom game, a duel with a level 3 JJ bit and pick a character from the original roster before marching fire, and you will see what I mean.

I was trying to practice against one today as a shaman, guy went into sifu stance, guardbreak didn't reach him, guardbreaked again, bot exited and re-entered sifu stance, guardbreak missed and then he did it for a 3rd time.

The problem is if you break down, just one of his moves, it's not too bad, however, you combine them all, and he just has too much, too quick.

"Dude, his stamina regen is incredibly fast without sifu stance."
His stamina regen without sifu's is the exact same rate as everyone elses. Sans gladiator's who's got faster.


"For example the shugokis demon embrace, high risk, high reward, you miss, you get punished hugely. Should be the same with JJ. If you just spam you should be forced to go into sifu stance. Forcing him to use it in his combos means he has the downside he badly needs which would open him for counter attack."
He's already forced to manage his stamina. because going into sifu's often gets you punished. But you think Sifu's is way better than it is. So of course you don't see that.


"So because the class system means next to nothing currently, we should make it mean even less, correct? That's flawed completely.
Your wrong, generally the class system indicates the health to damage output speed ratio of the chosen character, and if you look at the roster, is generally correct. Heavy being the most health and the slowest damage output, Assassin being the fastest damage output but less health. With vanguard in between. Hybrids are a mixture between two of those 3 categories which in turn borrow traits from both. If you look at the feats available for all the hybrids, you will find they will be a mixture of 2 of the feats available for one of those 3 classes.
Please point out to me any characters that don't conform to this system? As I can't see any."

Yes it should be ditched entirely because it confuses players like you into thinking it means something. As i've already said the class system doesn't work with a competitive direction. This is why there have been lots of changes that make kits seem similar. Like heavies are not the only ones with trading capability despite that clearly being a trait one would find with a heavy. Or that nearly every kit has 500ms attacks. It wasn't always that way. Dodges being normalized. etc.


"Right 600ms first off the bat isn't slow. A nobushis top heavy is slow.

Name me one other move other than hidden stance or sifu poise that has a dodge property attached to the backwards guard stance, exactly there isn't one.
Now, sifu poise is actually far superior to nobushis hidden stance and I'll break it down for you.


Sifu stance-
Has dodge property combined with back doge property, when exited instantly and re entered, same happens and is then out of range of next attack in opponents combo, rinse and repeat forever.

Hidden stance- Has dodge property, stays in same location, meaning light combos cancel out nobushis counter attack. As still in range.

Sifu stance - Can't counter guard break in it, however due to the back dodge property, the opponent must first dodge forward to be in range of a guard break, by which time he can of counter attacked with his zone.

Hidden stance--Can counter guardbreak, however the stamina used to enter hidden stance is still taken and you are removed from hidden stance.


Sifu stance - Can be used infinitely as takes no stamina, plus stamina regen from completely empty is sped up.

Hidden stance - Can be used a total of twice before out of stamina.

Sifu stance - Can't be guard broken during animation of entry or exit of sifu stance.

Hidden stance - Can be guard broken at any time

I think it's obvious which is the better one."

No 600ms is slow. That's why we've made the push for all heros to have 500ms lights. And why 400ms lights are needed to actually have lights be a useful offense tool instead of just interupt damage. 600ms and 700ms attacks are only considered fast when it comes to heavies. But the best zones in the game and the best lights in the game are all 500ms or faster. You're tacking on the back dodge to invalidate my point when you originally were only speaking on the dodge property. Tiandi, JJ, nobushi, orochi, valk. all have a move that is specifically designed for dodging. As for your comparisons: The back dodge doesn't matter. If I was withing hugging distance or near hugging distance with all characters my second attack will still track and hit you and you can't do anything about it. And heros with more range like say nobushi or valk don't have to be that close and still accomplish the same thing.

You can't exit sifu immediately. unless you attack out of it the combined time of being inside sifu's plus the recovery after is 800-900ms. The back dodge doesn't prevent a gb from tracking. The only way that would make sense is if the dodge property of the move caused GB's to break tracking. It doesn't. If the person sees you going into sifu's it's a free GB for them. And again back dodge itself doesn't mean anything. Nobushi's block retreat takes you much farther than sifu's does. and in combo attacks still track it very well. Sifu's and hidden stance can both be GBed on start up and not be techable. Just like every other move in the game. You clearly haven't played him.

Nobushi's is superior because it's better defensively. You have 4 counter attack options out of it. You can also delay going into it which delays your I frames by soft feinting an attack into it. JJ can also do this. but it's less beneficial for him since his counter attack option is just one making it easy to counter. She can also dodge out of it. Meaning she can deal with combo attacks that way.
The only thing Sifu's has above her hidden stance is the fact that he can dodge and then go into hidden stance. Which makes him hard to punish for characters like highlander when JJ is OOS.
The stamina regen thing is nice. But when your entire move set is easily predictable all it's enabling is the ability to attack more. Which I guess works for lower levels. Nobushi's threat is her massive damage she gets after landing bleed. Which is made easy when she can use hidden stance to reliably dodge and counter with attacks. Her stamina management is poor. But this is ultimately irrelevant. When you consider the fact that she's one of the best counter attackers in the game.


"Nearly every character has quick light now your correct, however your are completely incorrect on how telegraphed it is.
His side dodge soft faint can be cancelled literally just before his actual attack lands, meaning the reaction time to switch has to be pre guessed and on console, this is nigh on impossible."

That is not how soft feint works. All soft feints are tied to the same timing of 400ms into the move. JJ can't wait till his hit is about to land and then switch it to throw you off. They got rid of variable soft feint timings for ever ago. And if they some how messed this up with JJ then the competitive community would have noted it when they did their frame checking. They found it to be the same. I play on console. I react to it just fine.


"Yes your correct, the build-up is slow, however when either attack comes you have 400ms to get the correct side. It's way to fast for what is a confirmed hit if the opponent tries to dodge/deflect it.
Plus on console, this means you have to yank your analog stick to the opposing side in under 400ms. Combine this with assassins guard and your screwed."

It always comes from the opposite side. That's incredibly predictable when the attack it's coming from is nearly a second long. And yeah if you're trying to dodge or deflect it that's your fault.
Just because something is possible to do doesn't mean you should be doing it. Reflex guard is irrelevant. It has the same block time capability as standard guard. Both have the 100ms delay after switch before they can block. The only bad thing about reflex is you can't buffer a guard input during hit stun. So sure. If someone hit you right before the soft feint you won't be able to switch in time. Welcome to 4's.

"His shin kick is 400ms exactly, which if hit leads to a lot of damage, the thing is, if it was this on its own, its not such a problem, however combine it with all the above problems I've addressed and is yet another 400ms you have to second guess on console. There's soo many different possibilities that he can do which are all very close to a 50/50"

Apparently you didn't read. You can dodge the kick on the exact timing you'd dodge his heavy. There is no need to guess when you can avoid literally anything he can do from that attack on a single timing. And stop crutching on the console excuse. Good and proper 400ms attacks of any kind are just as hard to react to on pc. That's the point. the shin kick isn't a good 400ms attack because it's completely avoided without having to guess. So no it's not even a 50/50. Shin kick confirms a lights worth of damage. Which isn't a lot. Only time this is different is if he's some how wall splatted you with it. Which lets him do his top heavy finisher of 45 damage.

"Like I said, because of sifu stances back dodge property, most attacks in a combo will miss him again, unless its an undodgable attack which only a few in the roster have access too.
Also like I said, hes not in range of most guardbreaks."

And like i've already pointed out the back dodge means nothing. If i'm already in effective range for my hero my second move is going to track. Gb's track as well. The only time the back dodge property would mean anything is if I was sitting at the edge of your effective range when you did it. Which is possible with spacing. But most players don't space well. And even if you were doing that I can just force you to use sifu's or predict that you'll use sifu's and use one of the numerous forward dash attacks in the game to catch you. Because as i've already said you have 800ms of recovery time with sifu if you don't zone out of it. So you're absolutely going to get hit.

"If you want to see exactly what I mean,
Set up a custom game, a duel with a level 3 JJ bit and pick a character from the original roster before marching fire, and you will see what I mean."

If nothing else this just proves to me that you're not an well informed player. Bots do not behave like players. And bots always buffer attacks. Meaning they're going to be slower than what you'd deal with in an actual fight.

"I was trying to practice against one today as a shaman, guy went into sifu stance, guardbreak didn't reach him, guardbreaked again, bot exited and re-entered sifu stance, guardbreak missed and then he did it for a 3rd time.

The problem is if you break down, just one of his moves, it's not too bad, however, you combine them all, and he just has too much, too quick."

Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps you're playing poorly or doing something wrong? No of course not. I already did break down his kit. Sifu's stance is situationally useful that is waaay too punishable to warrent using even semi frequently against a decent opponent. You can get away with using it more in 4's because people don't play optimally in 4's. The inherent nature of 4's makes things safer than they actually are. Both of his offensive moves are beatable on reaction. Side dodge heavy into soft feint is both reactable and stuffable. His forward dodge soft feint and anything he chooses to do before/after it is completely avoided with a single late dodge. The only thing JJ has going for him outside his actually op feats is his damage model. It doesn't help that some of his attacks are wonky due to doing damage before hitting someone. I can agree that his bugs should be fixed and that his damage profile should be brought down some. But that's it.

OhThatTickles
11-04-2018, 08:39 PM
@Knight_Raime

I see your points but @CSaunders95 has some as well. Try not to attack him personally to make your point.

I think you have decent counters to a bunch of his statements, but don't address an important one very well. Sifu stance, as mentioned, has dodge frames, no cost, is very difficult for much of the original cast to punish, and provides a direct benefit to an all around excellent kit. Your argument that JJ remains in punishable range after entering Sifu is only true for "ranged" characters like Nobu, Valk and Shaolin, and then only for certain moves. The "tracking" you mention is rare in the original cast, and the timing to both close the gap and land the attack is iffy. At most the punish is a tracking light dash attack like orochi's, which is poor punishment for the "dangerous" move that Sifu stance is. Close-ranged characters are vulnerable to abuse by the method Saunders explained, and to dash forward and get the guard break is a non-option for many.

I would contest the timing for his top heavy vs. shin kick timing, but don't have access to the numbers. They feel very different to me, and the "minimal" punish of a 45dmg top heavy on splat is massively good in a majority of situations, not to mention 4v4 abusability.

Finally, on a personal note, as a Nobu main - I don't feel many of the Nobu arguments have value. JJ is superior to Nobu in almost every way, and the methods of countering him with Nobu that you mention are death-sentences for most Nobus short of tournament players.

Knight_Raime
11-04-2018, 09:38 PM
@Knight_Raime

I see your points but @CSaunders95 has some as well. Try not to attack him personally to make your point.

I think you have decent counters to a bunch of his statements, but don't address an important one very well. Sifu stance, as mentioned, has dodge frames, no cost, is very difficult for much of the original cast to punish, and provides a direct benefit to an all around excellent kit. Your argument that JJ remains in punishable range after entering Sifu is only true for "ranged" characters like Nobu, Valk and Shaolin, and then only for certain moves. The "tracking" you mention is rare in the original cast, and the timing to both close the gap and land the attack is iffy. At most the punish is a tracking light dash attack like orochi's, which is poor punishment for the "dangerous" move that Sifu stance is. Close-ranged characters are vulnerable to abuse by the method Saunders explained, and to dash forward and get the guard break is a non-option for many.

I would contest the timing for his top heavy vs. shin kick timing, but don't have access to the numbers. They feel very different to me, and the "minimal" punish of a 45dmg top heavy on splat is massively good in a majority of situations, not to mention 4v4 abusability.

Finally, on a personal note, as a Nobu main - I don't feel many of the Nobu arguments have value. JJ is superior to Nobu in almost every way, and the methods of countering him with Nobu that you mention are death-sentences for most Nobus short of tournament players.

Okay but for real though you don't know what you're talking about. Every. single. move. in the game has tracking. As I pointed out with Nobushi's block retreat even characters like berzerker (one of the two noted heros to have overall short range) will still track her if he's continuing his combo. The exact same thing happens with sifu's stance. The dodge would avoid the first hit. not the second. Because you have 800ms mandatory recovery unless you zone out. Which means 400ms into the 800ms you start your 600ms attack.

It isn't only true for ranged heros. Ranged heros can punish him for going into it at a farther distance. Something others can't. But as I noted if i'm within close range with literally any hero my combo attack will land. The dodge itself doesn't take you out of close range. and the mandatory time to sit in it plus the recovery of leaving it (again which is 800ms) means any combo hit I throw that's faster than 800ms is going to hit you.

I hardly see how orochi's dash attack is a poor punishment. That's a guaranteed light into probably two more since his in combo lights are 400ms and people struggle dealing with basic 500ms lights.

Just because Nobu is your main doesn't mean you know everything about her or her match ups. JJ is superior in terms of direct damage since bushi has to land bleed to get her meaty damage. Her raw hidden stance into kick is her fastest option out of HS that beats most things. unless it's absurdly fast like a 500ms/400ms follow up. She can just straight up hidden stance a raw attack and get a free GB unless the person decides to throw an attack after it whiffs. Her dodge out of hidden stance into delayed side winder into her kick massively throws people off because of how weird the timing is after each of those situations.

I'd suggest you go look up a youtuber called "mr. medium" Was considered to be one of the best if not the best console nobushi. He migrated over to pc semi recently. Of course you can also go look up Alernakin as well. Considered to probably be the best active nobushi. he's a pc player. Both can show you just how good nobushi's hidden stance is.

You can "contest" the timing all you want. You're still wrong. And there is video footage out there of people testing and showcasing this. Yes the splat into 45 damage is very strong. Good luck getting someone to play near a wall. JJ has nothing in his kit that forces people to play near a surface. Also. I play JJ in 4's often. I almost never get my splat punish because randoms almost always ruin max punishes.

I only get this aggressive with people because both you and them are not informed players. You go entirely off of your own experiences. Let me get this straight for you. I don't claim to be an amazing player. Not even a good one. I don't claim that my opinions are facts. Nor do I assume such. but I DO know more about the game then most people here. And this is because I actively communicate with people who tear the game apart mechanically. I actively watch the people who post information they find from doing frame checks. I know how this game works for the most part. I can tell you the basic rule of thumb for how something works and when/if it is different in some other case.

Blatently put I have more knowledge about the game. If you want to contest my opinion JJ being bad that's fine. As that's a subjective thing. But If I tell you how something works, in this case sifu's poise, or JJ's soft feints then it's not debatable. Not unless you can provide frame by frame footage proving other wise with an explanation on why the mechanics are working different in this case.

SixAxe505
11-04-2018, 10:58 PM
You are speaking on the viability of punishing a move that on paper works, but in practice is next to impossible. I am going to make 3 points.

1. JJ has great range and speed. Most times when a JJ initiated combat it's at his effective range not the opponents. Heroes like assasins and those with a shorter range are able to block, parry, and deflect but not counter attack. Considering his lights are 500ms, parrying goes out the window as a normalized counter and his 400ms switcheroo rarely gets blocked. Considering you block a move outside your striking distance, by the time you get into it, he has already sifu'd the f out of range and potentially hit you with a zone for trying to swing.

2. Nobody Sifu's the first hit anyway. Your claims are that if you throw an attack while being directly next to a JJ, which doesn't happen often if at all, and they sifu then your next hit tracks and will hit them. Let me speak from a Nuxia point of view, that is false. Most heroes do not have tracking capabilities on their follow up attacks that push them further. If dodged to the side, maybe, but dodged backwards? No. All that aside, JJ only Sifu's on block, or parry, or as a mix-up in his own combo, not arbitrarily during the fight.

3. You use JJ in 4's alot, you have a biased opinion. You would not want to believe that he is as powerful as he is for fear of him being nerfed, I mean BALANCED. The proof is in the pudding so they say. All that being said, sifu only needs to be taken away when he is OOS and his damage needs to be brought down, it his attacks (some of them) need to be slowed down. Other than that I agree with most things you post.

Knight_Raime
11-04-2018, 11:21 PM
You are speaking on the viability of punishing a move that on paper works, but in practice is next to impossible. I am going to make 3 points.

1. JJ has great range and speed. Most times when a JJ initiated combat it's at his effective range not the opponents. Heroes like assasins and those with a shorter range are able to block, parry, and deflect but not counter attack. Considering his lights are 500ms, parrying goes out the window as a normalized counter and his 400ms switcheroo rarely gets blocked. Considering you block a move outside your striking distance, by the time you get into it, he has already sifu'd the f out of range and potentially hit you with a zone for trying to swing.

2. Nobody Sifu's the first hit anyway. Your claims are that if you throw an attack while being directly next to a JJ, which doesn't happen often if at all, and they sifu then your next hit tracks and will hit them. Let me speak from a Nuxia point of view, that is false. Most heroes do not have tracking capabilities on their follow up attacks that push them further. If dodged to the side, maybe, but dodged backwards? No. All that aside, JJ only Sifu's on block, or parry, or as a mix-up in his own combo, not arbitrarily during the fight.

3. You use JJ in 4's alot, you have a biased opinion. You would not want to believe that he is as powerful as he is for fear of him being nerfed, I mean BALANCED. The proof is in the pudding so they say. All that being said, sifu only needs to be taken away when he is OOS and his damage needs to be brought down, it his attacks (some of them) need to be slowed down. Other than that I agree with most things you post.

1) subjective. Depends on the map. Most of me experience with JJ has been on river fort, shard, and I forget the third map. the one where C is literally just trap doors everywhere. On all 3 maps sans the trap door map Most opponents were in my face due to the points being enclosed spaces. So people were easily able to be within close range. Now if I was playing a more open map like that viking one that has two rope bridges then sure. 500ms lights are easily parryable. So maybe at your level. But not mine. It's entirely possible for people to space others with JJ. I do it when possible. But that's not how I see the average JJ play. Which is what i'm speaking on.

2) People sifu to dodge random hits and to cancel the recoveries of their final hit. So anyway you use his stance you can hit him. Nuxia's got poor range with her lights because they're small thrusts. It still has tracking. If you tried to side dodge her top light after she hit you with a side light you're going to eat the hit. Some moves don't have good tracking for forward. Some don't have good side tracking. Very few moves have poor tracking all around. Sifu poise is used rather often in team fights because that is when he can get most of his wide sweeping hits in. So knowing this you can just watch JJ and see when he's sifued to get his stamina back and then punish him. You're correct that in a duel situation it is used much less often though.

3) Everyone's opinion is biased to an extent. I've already agreed that he needs a damage nerf. I'm not afraid of him being nerfed. I've never felt that way about any hero i've enjoyed. If JJ has to be nerfed it's got to be done smartly. I can understand at some skill levels JJ feels oppressive because of how much he does. At the same time I can't ignore that at my level of play he's far less viable. Sifu's poise might be difficult to punish for you or others. But not for me. And if I use it too often I get punished. So much so that even in 4's I only sifu's if someone else is near by. If i'm in a 1v1 I never do it even if I might be out of immediate range. Because the players I deal with are smart enough to know how to punish it. Just as I can't spam his shin kick or side dodge heavy as people know how to deal with it.

Aside from his bugs being fixed the only nerf he needs is damage wise. And a feat nerf as well. Sifu's poise is situationally useful and too easy to punish outside a team fight. His side dodge heavy is too predictable and has multiple ways of dealing with it and the soft feint. and his top heavy soft feint doesn't do it's job of being a mix up because you can dodge it and the heavy on the same timing. JJ has no counter to that. I want him buffed because of the heavies (sans maybe warlord) he's the only one with good bones in his kit. The rest are horribly designed both on paper and in practice.

Tatsu147146
11-05-2018, 12:14 AM
It seems that a lot of you tend to fight JJ in HIS comfort zone and that makes him even MORE frustrating than he actually is. Not that JJ isn't a bit to much on the annoying side of things. Frankly at the moment the thing I find most frustrating with Sifu's poise is that he can enter it while OOS, although I recently GB him while in that move and OOS with Shugoki and well you can imagine what happened next.

I'm not here to tell you to GIT GUD and block or parry, though very useful they are not the only deciding factor. Most people I've encountered here seem to forget that using you're recommended range or how I prefer to call it you're surrounding field is a game changing tool that is constantly overlooked. Surrounding field is a term I use for myself when in a fight, it's basically an imaginary circle if you will, which is dictated by you're weapon or in this case you're character of choice (this still has to do with the thread please be patient with me). In real life you want to keep your opponent in a certain distance which also translates into this game. Normally I idealize this surrounding field as one foot from the tip of my weapon, I don't want my opponent's BODY any closer or farther than that. From what I can gather from a lot of the posts in this thread is that you can't hit you're second light when JJ goes into Sifu's poise and this is more than likely because you have been fighting him in HIS surrounding field, you want to fight him where he's most uncomfortable which is right in his face or beyond his surrounding field, this is where you want to be. Here's my logic behind it, from my experience fighting them they get desperate if you're to close and make a lot of mistakes, here is where short range fighters are the best, they'll try to get farther or go into Sifu's poise which, if you're in your surrounding field is quite easy to punish however way you want. As for long range and medium range fighters you want to stay away from his surrounding field and play it patiently, let THEM close the gap because their only way to do so is by using heavys which are slow enough to get some good damage or punishes into the fight (I've played this strategy the most to satisfactory results with Orochi and Shugoki, and I don't spam head butts like a jerk) play the player not the characters get on their skin don't let them have their space.

This is not to say that I find JJ to be balanced or that my way to fight him is the best let alone the only way, but since it's still been only two weeks I'll refrain momentarily from airing my complaints for now and see what moves that I find OP actually have a weakness or if they don't I'll be back to explain why they are OP and have no way to punish.

I hope this post is helpful in some way to those trying to fight this or any other character.

Blitzwarrior771
11-05-2018, 02:24 AM
Then nerf Nuxia orochi and aramusha

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 03:22 AM
It seems that a lot of you tend to fight JJ in HIS comfort zone and that makes him even MORE frustrating than he actually is. Not that JJ isn't a bit to much on the annoying side of things. Frankly at the moment the thing I find most frustrating with Sifu's poise is that he can enter it while OOS, although I recently GB him while in that move and OOS with Shugoki and well you can imagine what happened next.

I'm not here to tell you to GIT GUD and block or parry, though very useful they are not the only deciding factor. Most people I've encountered here seem to forget that using you're recommended range or how I prefer to call it you're surrounding field is a game changing tool that is constantly overlooked. Surrounding field is a term I use for myself when in a fight, it's basically an imaginary circle if you will, which is dictated by you're weapon or in this case you're character of choice (this still has to do with the thread please be patient with me). In real life you want to keep your opponent in a certain distance which also translates into this game. Normally I idealize this surrounding field as one foot from the tip of my weapon, I don't want my opponent's BODY any closer or farther than that. From what I can gather from a lot of the posts in this thread is that you can't hit you're second light when JJ goes into Sifu's poise and this is more than likely because you have been fighting him in HIS surrounding field, you want to fight him where he's most uncomfortable which is right in his face or beyond his surrounding field, this is where you want to be. Here's my logic behind it, from my experience fighting them they get desperate if you're to close and make a lot of mistakes, here is where short range fighters are the best, they'll try to get farther or go into Sifu's poise which, if you're in your surrounding field is quite easy to punish however way you want. As for long range and medium range fighters you want to stay away from his surrounding field and play it patiently, let THEM close the gap because their only way to do so is by using heavys which are slow enough to get some good damage or punishes into the fight (I've played this strategy the most to satisfactory results with Orochi and Shugoki, and I don't spam head butts like a jerk) play the player not the characters get on their skin don't let them have their space.

This is not to say that I find JJ to be balanced or that my way to fight him is the best let alone the only way, but since it's still been only two weeks I'll refrain momentarily from airing my complaints for now and see what moves that I find OP actually have a weakness or if they don't I'll be back to explain why they are OP and have no way to punish.

I hope this post is helpful in some way to those trying to fight this or any other character.
I agree with this generally. You should never fight anyone without equal footing at the the least, emphasized on “at the least”. Never diving in an unfavorable situation. I know the concept picking your battle escape some people’s self-pleasuring code. But it is a fact. Why, recently i see misters and missus hero fight in the middle of minion lane, in breach. If only i can switch team to kill them right there.
Same goes for JJ. Say, if u manage to fight him in a contained area, he can only gb, feint gb, and hit with tops. Either side will stagger him.
I get why people call JJ light too fast though. Maybe a certain degree of latency quicken his lights even more. So in reality, all these 500 ms lights are actually faster for many people.

SnizzyWizzy
11-05-2018, 07:06 AM
hes sooo op its disgusting. please nerf this guy! if u looked at him next to other older champs you would wonder why anyone even picks them. ohh...wait, they don't pick them. all i see is these new op guys running around everywhere. rip rip

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 09:19 AM
if u looked at him next to other older champs you would wonder why anyone even picks them. ohh...wait, they don't pick them.
he's new. With people like you, do you even wonder why people choose him? plus, out of all 4 Wulin interlopers, he's the easiest to play. With mentality like yours, easy to win as well.

all i see is these new op guys running around everywhere.
if you see everyone running JJ and OP to you, then have some self reflection: you are not as good as everyone.
i wouldn't bother to argue he's not OP. Read everyone's comment above.

Herbstlicht
11-05-2018, 09:44 AM
he's new.

if you see everyone running JJ and OP to you, then have some self reflection: you are not as good as everyone.
i wouldn't bother to argue he's not OP. Read everyone's comment above.

Stuff like this isn't helpful. I understand that everyone wants to keep JJ intact and fun - so do I. But lets be serious. The combination of Perks, Feats and his attacks in combination with damage numbers do make him #1 in Breach and Dominion right now. Furthermore, he has a high skill gap. People that are getting better and better with him, or like old Nobushi veterans, are wreaking havoc. And though I can only speak for console experience, I guess even on PC people will have a lot of trouble to guess his soft feinted dodge light. Because 400ms attack that can be feinted in rather late makes you guessing. His very easy acess to unblockables moves is increadible strong if he is group ganking, his hyperarmor heavys in unblockable and his zones are hell if he gets revenge and knows how to unlock.

But what do people ask for? Mainly, a damage reduction for his 400 ms light (because it feels kinda like a 50/50) and adjustment to his feats. Will that be enough? Oh I dunno. Hope so. But for someone who too enjoys playing this guy, I guess thats the bare minimum to let him stay #1 in Dominion and Breach without letting him occopy #2 and #3 as well. And yes, I am convinced that there is some real powergap between everyone else and JJ.

Like I really can't get that people consider JJ fine in Breach and Dominion .. Can understand this notion for the Monk, because this guy won't get any numbers in in a short timeframe and can be easily ganked. Though his kick might feel annyoing. Ah anyway, curious aboiut what and when Ubi will decide to do something. Just hope they don't wait another eternity - and be it for the simple fact that this guy might scare away some newer players that can't afford the new guys. Cuz would seem pretty bad - like Pay to Win.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 10:06 AM
Stuff like this isn't helpful. I understand that everyone wants to keep JJ intact and fun - so do I. But lets be serious. The combination of Perks, Feats and his attacks in combination with damage numbers do make him #1 in Breach and Dominion right now. Furthermore, he has a high skill gap. People that are getting better and better with him, or like old Nobushi veterans, are wreaking havoc. And though I can only speak for console experience, I guess even on PC people will have a lot of trouble to guess his soft feinted dodge light. Because 400ms attack that can be feinted in rather late makes you guessing. His very easy acess to unblockables moves is increadible strong if he is group ganking, his hyperarmor heavys in unblockable and his zones are hell if he gets revenge and knows how to unlock.
i can't comment on skill gap. And i do agree that if hit, his damage is incredible.
Easy access to Unblockable move? you mean parry counter? i hope you do. it's a counter, be careful not to get parried then. the only UB left is Heavy finisher, if you have critical problem with that, then some git gud is needed. And i don't mean it in an offensive way. The last UB is the leg kick, he can not feint out of that, so, side step.
But hold on, what is this Hyperarmor heavies in unblockable? THERE ARE NONE.
Revenge + zone: back off. It's the same thing with raider's zone.

But what do people ask for? Mainly, a damage reduction for his 400 ms light (because it feels kinda like a 50/50) and adjustment to his feats. Will that be enough? Oh I dunno. Hope so. But for someone who too enjoys playing this guy, I guess thats the bare minimum to let him stay #1 in Dominion and Breach without letting him occopy #2 and #3 as well. And yes, I am convinced that there is some real powergap between everyone else and JJ.
tbh, i have serious trouble handling lights, everyone's lights.
About the power gap between JJ and everone, i doubt it. Power gap in what way? damage? or something else?

Like I really can't get that people consider JJ fine in Breach and Dominion .. Can understand this notion for the Monk, because this guy won't get any numbers in in a short timeframe and can be easily ganked. Though his kick might feel annyoing. Ah anyway, curious aboiut what and when Ubi will decide to do something. Just hope they don't wait another eternity - and be it for the simple fact that this guy might scare away some newer players that can't afford the new guys. Cuz would seem pretty bad - like Pay to Win.
i'll tell you why I think he's fine. When i play as JJ, finishers are consistently side-stepped and guardbreak. So, now I wouldn't even bother with finishers unless they're backed into a corner or i'm being surrounded. I try to go nut with revenge+zone+lock switching, suffice to say i murder most of the idiots who don't back away. With the same combo, there are also people who will back away and wait it out. How long can it be? Revenge build is gone and its current incarnation isn't reliable.

newer players that can't afford the new guys
meaning? as in not having enough steels? or not enough will?
Pay to Win? oh well, this is a salty concept. it's not real in this case. I paid, i don't win all the time
Edit: oh I just checked this Unlock tech people's been rambling about. i'm not certain if I've ever encountered this so No comment. But I use Lock switching in brawl, it works as often as it doesn;'

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 11:35 AM
I preordered the MF DLC and played Tiandi and the Monk at release. I stopped to play them because i didnt liked it. Was playing other games and came back to give a try again. Im very disappointed about where For Honor is going with all those new game mechanics those new heros bring to the table while the rest of the heros are left behind on purpose...

JJ is just a very bad concept compared to the other available heros. He breaks completely all fight logic. Player are keen to abuse every cheese they can obtain. JJīs hidden stance (regens stamina btw.) is used to get free dodges and strike back with a zone or cancel to a light "zone" since he has only zone attacks.. His unblockable move which is also feintable is way too fast.

Yesterday i played him for the first time without looking into his moveset at all and i was directly the first one on the scoreboard with 21 : 1 and 900 score andI won every 1v1 encounter easily. He is definetely OP.

Monk is also broken and not punishable in most scenarios. I wont list all the **** he is able to do, because everybody allready knows it. The major issue is in team fights, probably in duels its not that much of an issue since skill is bigger then spam, you can compensate it by it but in teamfights this aint any fun to get stomped by skilles spamming player.

I love For Honor or should i say i loved? BUT please balance this game immediately this should be frist to do in your agenda.. Cmon guys you can do it its not that hard to balance a bit.

Tatsu147146
11-05-2018, 12:11 PM
I preordered the MF DLC and played Tiandi and the Monk at release. I stopped to play them because i didnt liked it. Was playing other games and came back to give a try again. Im very disappointed about where For Honor is going with all those new game mechanics those new heros bring to the table while the rest of the heros are left behind on purpose...

JJ is just a very bad concept compared to the other available heros. He breaks completely all fight logic. Player are keen to abuse every cheese they can obtain. JJīs hidden stance (regens stamina btw.) is used to get free dodges and strike back with a zone or cancel to a light "zone" since he has only zone attacks.. His unblockable move which is also feintable is way too fast.

Yesterday i played him for the first time without looking into his moveset at all and i was directly the first one on the scoreboard with 21 : 1 and 900 score andI won every 1v1 encounter easily. He is definetely OP.

Monk is also broken and not punishable in most scenarios. I wont list all the **** he is able to do, because everybody allready knows it. The major issue is in team fights, probably in duels its not that much of an issue since skill is bigger then spam, you can compensate it by it but in teamfights this aint any fun to get stomped by skilles spamming player.

I love For Honor or should i say i loved? BUT please balance this game immediately this should be frist to do in your agenda.. Cmon guys you can do it its not that hard to balance a bit.

Okay I have no idea at what skill level your opponents were when you faced them but I haven't seen that many successful heavy finishers with JJ on any game mode. At the skill level I play breach you can't even consider going for that attack even if you're getting banked by two JJ, people have already begun to parry that move even if you're attacking him while he's not locked on to JJ, myself included. Also if you were playing breach and you were top with only 900 points it means your opponents and allies were undoubtedly weak, compared to the average thousands of points you can gather in that game mode with any character.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 12:21 PM
Nope it was Dominion and the player were 200 + reps with very good knowledge of countering, feinting etc. You know what i did, i abused his sifu stance all the game and i was able to dodge with it allmost every attack. He is also very good at parrying compared to other heros. Lets be honest guys he is definetly not ok like he is now. I feel like im cheating when i play him in team game modes at least.. its very ezzzzz. :-)

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 12:34 PM
Nope it was Dominion and the player were 200 + reps with very good knowledge of countering, feinting etc. You know what i did, i abused his sifu stance all the game and i was able to dodge with it allmost every attack. He is also very good at parrying compared to other heros. Lets be honest guys he is definetly not ok like he is now. I feel like im cheating when i play him in team game modes at least.. its very ezzzzz. :-)

I think you mean his parry counter is very good compared to other hero. Which is true, this is what lawbringer should be, around this level. Besides that, everything is okay level.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:19 PM
Besides that, everything is okay level.

That is not enough to argue... people in this thread list exactly what the issue with JJ current stage is and you act like a red headed floor stomping kid in ignorance to what ve been listed so far.

Tell me then how is it possible that he gains stamina when in sifu stance and why people abuse it as free dodge in defensive purpose?

When you play as Warlord, Centurion or any other hero with short range JJ kinda unreachable with his sifu stance even guardbreaks are not possible he is just out of range for heros with short range attack and guardbreak range wise.

Everything is not ok not nearly ok. Everybody is swearing allready to JJs and are pissed off.. Cmon be real.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:23 PM
That is not enough to argue... people in this thread list exactly what the issue with JJ current stage is and you act like a red headed floor stomping kid in ignorance to what ve been listed so far.

Tell me then how is it possible that he gains stamina when in sifu stance and why people abuse it as an free dodge in defensive purpose? Everything is not ok not nearly ok. Everybody is swearing allready to JJs and are pissed off.. Cmon be real.

So did i. I just dont double, and triple post. Im not Raime. I have less patient the willingly deaf and blind. You think everyone in here agree with OP? People swear and vow this and that everyday, then break them the next moment of inconvenience.You think bunch of people swearing through anomynous typing words have any weight?
What is ignorant is that you hop in out of nowhere and start calling me name when what i say doesnt go along with you. You are a bigoted fool.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:36 PM
Reply to:

Tell me then how is it possible that he gains stamina when in sifu stance and why people abuse it as free dodge in defensive purpose?

It will be first time. Ive seen all your posts to this topic.. Can i have reply?

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:37 PM
Who are u talking to?

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:40 PM
To you?

"What is ignorant is that you hop in out of nowhere and start calling me name when what i say doesnt go along with you. You are a bigoted fool."

I thaught this is an open forum to all FH player? Sorry that i didnt ask for an audience before i take part of a topic that is interesting for me.. LOL

I ve never been called a bigoted fool because i argue on a topic objectively maybe use the mirror a bit more often, it will help.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:43 PM
I will assume that it is me then.
1. Why he gain stamina in sifu stance: duh, read the description, please. Do you need direction where to look?
2. Why people abuse it for defensive purpose: alright, this is the same thing with hidden stance and kensei dodge attack in the beginning, now its oddly quiet. Do you know why? When there is something new, functional with no remedy yet, people will continue to abuse it until a countermeasure is developed. JJ is now relatively new. He is not thoroughly tried with every match up yet. If he’s beaten by everyone so early, then what he needs is a buff, not nerf.
This community cried up a storm with kensei dodge attack. Only people whine about this is some sored newbies, popped in, cried a river and then disappeared.
How is that for a reply. Informative?

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:45 PM
To you?

"What is ignorant is that you hop in out of nowhere and start calling me name when what i say doesnt go along with you. You are a bigoted fool."

I thaught this is an open forum to all FH player? Sorry that i didnt ask for an audience before i take part of a topic that is interesting for me.. LOL

I ve never been called a bigoted fool because i argue on a topic objectively maybe use the mirror a bit more often, it will help.
Then consider me the first to call you that. I’m asian. I have no problem with red headed people. But i know that they are made fun of in certain place. Mind your tongue.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:47 PM
I will assume that it is me then.
1. Why he gain stamina in sifu stance: duh, read the description, please. Do you need direction where to look?
How is that for a reply. Informative?


Sifu's Poise - Stamina regenerates faster in this Stance. The Startup has a Dodge property. Can be performed even when out of Stamina.

Dude "red headed floor stomping kid" is not a race or a nationality description.. its a behaviourial description for ignorant people.. :-)

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:50 PM
Sifu's Poise - Stamina regenerates faster in this Stance. The Startup has a Dodge property. Can be performed even when out of Stamina.
Heavy Attack Openers - Heavy Attack Openers have Uninterruptable Stance.
Heavy Attack Finishers - Heavy Attack Finishers are Unblockable.
Mighty Attacks Cancel - Cancel Mighty Backlash with Light Attack or Cancel. Cancel Mighty Sanction with Dodge or Cancel. Mighty Attacks and Canceled moves count as Chain Openers.
Twofold Slash Cancel - You can cancel Twofold Slash after the first strike.
Chain Opener - Fatal Swish, Sifu's Swirl, Dou Shi's Swirl count as Chain Openers.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:55 PM
Sifu's Poise - Stamina regenerates faster in this Stance. The Startup has a Dodge property. Can be performed even when out of Stamina.

Dude "red headed floor stomping kid" is not a race or a nationality description.. its a behaviourial description for ignorant people.. :-)
Yeah, i dare you go in front of them and tell them that.
Let stop this issue here. I dont really care for you.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:55 PM
I will assume that it is me then.

2. Why people abuse it for defensive purpose: alright, this is the same thing with hidden stance and kensei dodge attack in the beginning, now its oddly quiet. Do you know why? When there is something new, functional with no remedy yet, people will continue to abuse it until a countermeasure is developed. JJ is now relatively new. He is not thoroughly tried with every match up yet. If he’s beaten by everyone so early, then what he needs is a buff, not nerf.
This community cried up a storm with kensei dodge attack. Only people whine about this is some sored newbies, popped in, cried a river and then disappeared.
How is that for a reply. Informative?

Come back to the facts.. i ve listed you parts of his moveset. Nobushi need stamina to use hidden stance and cant perform hidden stance when oos kensei side dodge attack is punishable and JJs are not in most scenarios..

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:56 PM
Sifu's Poise - Stamina regenerates faster in this Stance. The Startup has a Dodge property. Can be performed even when out of Stamina.
Heavy Attack Openers - Heavy Attack Openers have Uninterruptable Stance.
Heavy Attack Finishers - Heavy Attack Finishers are Unblockable.
Mighty Attacks Cancel - Cancel Mighty Backlash with Light Attack or Cancel. Cancel Mighty Sanction with Dodge or Cancel. Mighty Attacks and Canceled moves count as Chain Openers.
Twofold Slash Cancel - You can cancel Twofold Slash after the first strike.
Chain Opener - Fatal Swish, Sifu's Swirl, Dou Shi's Swirl count as Chain Openers.
So what is the problem? This is the description page

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 01:57 PM
I will assume that it is me then.
1. Why he gain stamina in sifu stance: duh, read the description, please. Do you need direction where to look?


LOL? Ok once again.. then

Sifu's Poise - Stamina regenerates faster in this Stance. The Startup has a Dodge property. Can be performed even when out of Stamina.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 01:58 PM
Come back to the facts.. i ve listed you parts of his moveset. Nobushi need stamina to use hidden stance and cant perform hidden stance when oos kensei side dodge attack is punishable and JJs are not in most scenarios..

Nobushi: UB kick, light to light bleed, heavy, dodge property.
Kensei:true.
JJ: no u can guardbreak without a chance of cgb. Or hit out of it by a follow up. A starter may not work. But i reckon kensei foward light can. JJ only way out of it is zone, which comes only from one direction. Or cancel out of it by release. Nothing else.
It looks punishable to me.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:00 PM
So is he gaining stamina in sifu stance now or not? Reply please.. you denied this fact earlier now you point on nobushis UB kick light to light bleed.. hš?

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:02 PM
Nobushi: UB kick, light to light bleed, heavy, dodge property.
Kensei:true.
JJ: no u can guardbreak without a chance of cgb. Or hit out of it by a follow up. A starter may not work. But i reckon kensei foward light can. JJ only way out of it is zone, which comes only from one direction. Or cancel out of it by release. Nothing else.
It looks punishable to me.

When JJ is in his Sifu Stance he is out of gb range for the most heros.. try it and you will see it. That is one part of his broken concept!!

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:03 PM
So is he gaining stamina is sifu stance now or not? Reply please.. you denied this fact earlier now you point on nobushis UB kick light to light bleed.. hš?

Sifu stance is a generator. It is a established fact. Why are we arguing about that? You make it sound like a hidden, super secret property, its not. It is even in JJ sub title.
My apology for making you think i denied sifu stance does not generate stamina. I have not and have never done so. I thought we all knew fact already

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:05 PM
When JJ is in his Sifu Stance he is out of gb range for the most heros.. try it and you will see it. That is one part of his broken concept!!

Hmm, i have. Get guardbroken most of time. I played too, you know. Before wulin is purchaseable with steel

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:05 PM
Sifu stance is a generator. It is a established fact. Why are we arguing about that?

you denied it and i argue that it is broken when he doesnt consume stamina to use this stance.. you wont get it im afraid.. xD

ytrecvbnm
11-05-2018, 02:09 PM
The JJ is definitely OP.

I'm a terrible duelist with any other hero, ~ 40% win rate if I'm timing my blocks and parries correctly, yet I rip people apart 90% of the time with the JJ, and don't even have all his moves down yet.

Of 8 games of breach with him, I've topped the board 7 times and have taken down kill balls with all his area attacks.

I generally don't like heavies because I find them so slow, but I don't have that gripe with the JJ.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:10 PM
you denied it and i argue that it is broken when he doesnt consume stamina to use this stance.. you wont get it im afraid.. xD

I see. I denied it not broken. Learn to read. “Not broken”. And please, do you understand that it would be ridiculous for a stamina generator to not generate stamina? That would be the definition of broken. And “consume stamina”, do you even hear yourself? A stamina generator that do not generate any but waste even more. Hah!
Jeez, now i start to think you a troll

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:13 PM
I will assume that it is me then.
1. Why he gain stamina in sifu stance: duh, read the description, please. Do you need direction where to look?
2. Why people abuse it for defensive purpose: alright, this is the same thing with hidden stance and kensei dodge attack in the beginning, now its oddly quiet. Do you know why? When there is something new, functional with no remedy yet, people will continue to abuse it until a countermeasure is developed. JJ is now relatively new. He is not thoroughly tried with every match up yet. If he’s beaten by everyone so early, then what he needs is a buff, not nerf.
This community cried up a storm with kensei dodge attack. Only people whine about this is some sored newbies, popped in, cried a river and then disappeared.
How is that for a reply. Informative?


YOUR ORIGINAL POST!

You denied that his sifu stance regenerates stamina and can be performed out of STAMINA!!!

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:16 PM
The JJ is definitely OP.

I'm a terrible duelist with any other hero, ~ 40% win rate if I'm timing my blocks and parries correctly, yet I rip people apart 90% of the time with the JJ, and don't even have all his moves down yet.

Of 8 games of breach with him, I've topped the board 7 times and have taken down kill balls with all his area attacks.

I generally don't like heavies because I find them so slow, but I don't have that gripe with the JJ.

Exactly like i said i played him yesterday evening without reading his moveset once and was scoreleader with 21 kills... and 1 death by end game feats.. ez mode season 8.0 xD

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:16 PM
YOUR ORIGINAL POST!

You denied that his sifu stance regenerates stamina and can be performed out of STAMINA!!!

Where? Which word? I never deny the description. So enlight me, which word? Which sentence?

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:19 PM
Where? Which word? I never deny the description. So enlight me, which word? Which sentence?


I will assume that it is me then.
1. Why he gain stamina in sifu stance: duh, read the description, please. Do you need direction where to look?


Dude you are really a time loss. rofl + lmao + xD :DDD

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:20 PM
Dude you are really a time loss. rofl + lmao + xD :DDD

Someone gives me patience with this fool.
Okay, and why is it a denial? I point u that way so you can see it yourself.

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:21 PM
.

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:22 PM
Reply to:

Tell me then how is it possible that he gains stamina when in sifu stance and why people abuse it as free dodge in defensive purpose?

It will be first time. Ive seen all your posts to this topic.. Can i have reply?
Here you go. Do i need to underline as well? That is you, right? Not your dog?

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:25 PM
Iīm out no time to argue with you anymore.. seriously get some help. I go but not here.. have a nice one :-)

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:25 PM
This Barbaroth is a troll. An absent-minded troll.
I feel trolled

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:26 PM
Iīm out no time to argue with you anymore.. seriously get some help. I go but not here.. have a nice one :-)
Run away. I won :)

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:27 PM
Run away. I won :)

You won.. i dont argue to win i argue to solve problems that the difference between " red headed floor stomping kids" and adult people but ehm ok you won :D

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:28 PM
You won.. i dont argue to win i argue to solve problems that the difference between " red headed floor stomping kids" and adult people but ehm ok you won :D
Thank you :) im glad you finally see the error of your way and agree with me

Phenoloth
11-05-2018, 02:30 PM
Epic.. :rolleyes:

SangLong524
11-05-2018, 02:33 PM
Epic.. :rolleyes:
Bye :) come back when u can sew together an agrument without forgeting how it started.
You are an annoying troll but the the troll has been slain at last. Come back later and try again

Tellahane
11-06-2018, 12:22 AM
I can count on one hand how many times I've gone into sifu stance in a duel or even a 1v1 in a breach map and NOT gotten punished for it, I rarely use it except like after a fight or while fighting off minions because of that...its a TRAP...

While JJ sounds overpowered on paper and in the training room his moves are EXTREMELY easy to predict and counter.

Mixups? what mixups, forward dash heavy, change to a kick, doesn't matter, if you see him forward dodge, side step out of the way and all of his mixups are countered

Side heavy to a light soft feint, is about the only have decent one, but just plan on countering the heavy because the light barely does any damage anyway, everything else is extremely easy to parry or dodge out of...you complain that they are too fast they are the same heavies every other freaking class has.

I'm more scared of a shaman or berserker or shinobi then i am of a JJ...the only thing JJ has going for him is that he can at least feint into sifu for stamina and pray that you through down a heavy to try an parry instead of a guard break because guard break destroys me in sifu ALL THE TIME....I've all but stopped playing JJ except for maybe breach because I Can do some nice jump in assist damage or buff the crap out of the minions hitting the ram but thats about all...there are plenty of classes that can counter JJ with as long as the player has any parry skills...

Blitzwarrior771
11-06-2018, 01:15 AM
Well said thatís whatís happening , you should worry more about tiandi and Nuxia

SixAxe505
11-06-2018, 01:34 AM
So the problem with JJ as stated in previous post is many. Individually, they are not big issues, collectively, because he has them all, they are a big issue. The only real issues that should be addressed that myself and alot of other players agree on is mainly 2 things.

1. No Sifu when OOS
2. Damage nerf/Speed nerf on some attacks. (Light attacks, follow ups, and Zone).

What I have seen in Duels:

Like Nobushi, he can Sifu on reaction to any attack. This is a critical point because it Dodges moves as a property and puts substantial distance between the attacker and himself. It can immediately be followed up with his Zone, which punishes most follow up attacks for quite a bit of damage. Heck even some moves with high recovery or startup can be punished with the zone even without follow up.

He can light attack spam. 500ms startup lights are good. If they weren't, people wouldn't cry about orochi's, pre-nerf aramusha, shinobi, peacekeeper, Nuxia...etc...wait notice something? Most of these guys are assasins? He has Heavy health, assassin lights, and vanguard damage. Even if they did nothing profound or truly skilled, you can get light spammed and lose out in the trade due to the difference in health. When he wants, he can switch it up to unblockable heavies that he can feint on command. 2hit chains that end in unblockables...that's warden power.

The kick, wallsplats, but tiandi's palm strike and kick do not....ok? Neither do shinobis's, gladiator punches, kensei or aramusha pommel strikes...I could go on.

If you are up against a nobushi vet or someone similar then you are always at a disadvantage. High skill and versatile kit, with the ability to reposition himself at will, with stamina regen and the ability to engage you and keep you at HIS effective distance, makes fighting him really tough. Due to his high damage and health, he only needs to punish you 2-3 times minimum, while you need to punish him 5-6 times.

What I have seen in 4's:

He is way too good at fighting off multiple opponents. The tried and true method is literally: wait for an attack, sifu, zone, zone, sifu, repeat. Cgb, Zone, sifu, Zone. Obviously playing defensively, parrying when possible and blah blah blah, but the return he gets on his moves and revenge is staggering. I have watched him 1v 4, the enemy team on multiple occasions and different people. No other characters, except godlike conquerors and lucky kensei's can do things like that. As far as I know and have seen.

Ganking: Just hang up the towel, his slow heavies that mess up your timing, unblockables, kick, and 500ms lights when your guard is not facing him externally is too much to deal with, especially if the person you are facing is even partially doing what they are supposed to be doing. That doesn't even include latency, in fact, none of the above does.

I used him in a duel against a high skilled player whom I had got into several rematches against. We had started to use character we never used, because they were lvl 1's and stuff. He rotated back to his main, warden. I had happened to choose JJ that time (level 1). I DESTROYED him 3-1. The 1 loss, was me getting acquainted with his moves the first round. This is just me listing facts. Here is another one; The Wu-lin must be powerful to sell the dlc and steel packs. In time they will be brought in line, or at least hopefully. Anyone who didn't think they would not be powerful was kidding themselves. However, powerful and Overpowered are 2 different things. Tiandi is powerful, Nuxia is lacking, JJ is OP, and Shaolin is very Powerful, borderline OP, definitely in gank scenarios, but on his own he is just riding the line. JJ is past the line, in fact he is the standard if what OP is now.

Blitzwarrior771
11-06-2018, 02:12 AM
Once again aramusha needs nerf more then any hero itís ****ing annoying that he can chain you over and over again **** this motha****er .

BaelinFisherman
11-06-2018, 03:07 AM
Lol, yeah your correct he can only zone from it, however it still has a dodge property much like hidden stance. The entrance and exit time to it is also extremely quick, combine that with the fact HE GAINS STAMINA WHILE IN IT AND CAN USE IT WHILE OOS and he basically its got infinite use. Unlike NOBUSHIS which has 2 uses before she's exhausted. And has slow stamina regen.


The whole point of hidden stance on nobushi is to use it as a dodge property. Which JJ also has.

Plus he moves back from it, meaning its usually out of range of short armed assassins, unlike nobushi who stays on the same spot.

So JJs sifu stance + sifu stance + sifu stance combo basically means he's reset the fight and has full stamina.

No, his stance is nothing like hidden stance. Nobushi actually has iframes where she literally cannot be hit while in her hidden stance. With JJ, he can still be knocked out of it at any time.

JJ is already lower tier compared to the other Wu Lin. If anyone needs a nerf it is BS Shoulin. I am sick and tired to dying to damn near unreactable attacks and guarentees that no other character in the game would ever dream of getting.

RagnarRagnaroek
11-06-2018, 07:46 PM
I fully agree! JJ ist overpowerd, his heavy kombo ends every time with a unblockable. Stammina reg?

Devils-_-legacy
11-06-2018, 07:54 PM
Once again aramusha needs nerf more then any hero itís ****ing annoying that he can chain you over and over again **** this motha****er .

You have to be kidding

Blitzwarrior771
11-06-2018, 08:36 PM
Why would I joke ???????? You think aramusha needs sifu stance ???? It never run out of stamina it keeps chaining jj got no chance vs aramusha .

Devils-_-legacy
11-06-2018, 09:18 PM
Why would I joke ???????? You think aramusha needs sifu stance ???? It never run out of stamina it keeps chaining jj got no chance vs aramusha .

I can't tell if your serious or not but they can definitly run out of stamina. I never said he did but aramusha kit is pretty weak even after his "buff" Imo jjs far superior. Assuming there both the same skill level I'll put my money on jj not the Aramusha