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View Full Version : When the will you balance this game, or even attempt to?



Obliged_HL
11-01-2018, 08:40 PM
I've gotten to the point where I'm just thinking about quitting For Honor entirely. Once you pass a certain skill level and fight against players who know how to use every tool in their disposal, the game becomes almost unplayable with almost the entire roster, I'm being 100% serious, this is not even an overexaggeration.

You got warlords unlocking and running around like season 1 Shugoki doing almost completely unpunishable crashing charge mix ups, you got shaolin dodging out of range of any mixup or guardbreak, half the cast can dodge highlander's kick by just holding backwalk, you got highlander's balors might softfeint to caber toss being dodge-rollable on reaction, 3/4 of the cast has no way to attack at all, dodge-attack option selects by just delaying the dodge attack if you see the enemy commits, you got classes with 600ms ****ing chain lights, others have 600ms neutral lights (lmao). Gladiators can use their ****ing zone to parry option select things, only like 2 classes can punish glad's comically stupid zone. You got shinobi slide tacklers, then you got nobushi and her literally unpunishable hidden stance that counters all offense in the game save for Tiandi. Then you got valk's fullblock which, woopee ****ing doo, lets her avoid like 90% of mixups in the ****ing game, yeah that's great, please devs, make it harder to attack in this game.

I'm so sick and tired of watching these live-streams like "Oh guys look armor and weapons haha! Look guys pumpkin emote haha cool yay!"

I don't give a **** about any of that anymore if the game isn't even playable, Unless you play 4 classes out of like 24. Even then there are ways you can cheese your way out of them too. So sick and tired of this. What's the point of armors, cosmetics and emotes when the game's combat is essentially not functional at the highest level? Ubi can you get your priorities ****ing straight? Sometimes I'm embarassed to tell people I play this game because they go "For Honor, Oh, you mean that JOKE of a fighting game?"

I remember a few months ago when I heard that all the best players abandoned this game, I remember I thought to myself "they're just quitters and are mistaken." What an intoxicating innocence. How could I be so naive?

I used to love this game but I don't think I can stand it any longer. When you try to attack someone and he rolls or does an extremely safe nigh unpunishable escape plan every time, or just blocks everything because you have no mixups (talking to you, Shugoki/Lawbringer/Aramusha/Nobushi/Orochi/Centurion/Raider mains) you can only deal with it for so long. It doesn't help that every Thursday I look at the livestream with excitement for news on balance only to see more ****ing cosmetics, more emotes and then some stupid event challenge. Maybe I'll want to do those challenges and grind those cosmetics when I don't have to stare at my opponent for 4 minutes until he decides to throw something out.

The saddest thing is, half of the roster that can attack can only do 1 move. Conq shieldbash (btw, dodge-attack option select completely shuts down shield bash), warlord crashing charge, gladiator zone, shinobi slide tackle. The rest of their kit is almost entirely useless. Gladiator can't do anything without his zone, his skewer gb whiffs almost all the time and his his combo lights are 600ms lol. Shinobi besides slide can only do easily blocked 500ms lights, an easily reactable albeit unpunishable kick and that's it. Warlord headbutt is meh and his chains are a big fat joke, HEAVY OR LIGHT, LIGHT OR HEAVY DUR! I honestly believe 3/4 of the cast needs to be reworked or at the very least heavily tweaked to even have a chance of being balanced, and I don't mean in ****ing 2 years I mean IMMEDIATELY with frequent updates and feedback from the best players.

Honestly I think it comes down to this: The devs don't understand because they don't play the game. Not to be insulting, but when I saw the developers play the game, they were just wildly swinging, no high level mix ups or strategy. They don't know how to balance the game because they don't even understand it themselves. I've lost all hope. There's nothing left for this game, and it's a damn shame.

`If any for honor developers are reading this I hope you understand where I'm coming from, that's all I have to say. All I want to is be heard, I want the issues to be acknowledged. The issues go far, far deeper than just "lawbringer sucks".

Knight_Raime
11-01-2018, 08:55 PM
I think the developers are, on some level, aware of how god awful the game is at high level play (mainly duels speaking. 4's has it's own issues but the balance between heros more or less isn't as important because the individual is less important than what a hero can bring to a team fight.)
I don't think they attempt to balance the game around that level. Because that would require a lot more work from them. Not just from kit balance (as they'ed have to scrap a lot of the kits anyway) but because core mechanical changes need to be made.

I was in your boat. I took a few months break. I came back and only play the game casually. (venturing into 4's instead of only dueling has greatly helped my sanity with the game.)
I'd suggest a break to you as well. And if you do come back try to find enjoyment in what the game is. I myself still occasionally make suggestions on how to improve parts of the game or hero kits. But i've mostly accepted that what I want from the game is never going to happen. or if anything happens remotely in the direction that I want it likely won't be in my ideal way. So I kinda just let go.

Illyrian_King
11-01-2018, 08:58 PM
No Lawbringer doesn't suck.

We just need to learn how to play him.

Obliged_HL
11-01-2018, 09:00 PM
No Lawbringer doesn't suck.

We just need to learn how to play him.

Please, that was funny but if this keeps up one of my arteries is going to rupture.

Obliged_HL
11-01-2018, 09:08 PM
No Lawbringer doesn't suck.

We just need to learn how to play him.

The biggest problem though is that lawbringer isn't even the only problem. There is so many undocumented, underlying issues, you cannot even imagine. For example, highlander can halve his dodge recovery by moving his guard left to right as he dodges. Makes him an INCREDIBLE turtle. But, his offense can be rolled entirely or just backwalked, and his only viable option (balors feint into guardbreak) is extremely hard to pull off due to it's low range. Like, this is not a playable game. These underlying, broken things need to be recognized. His left balors might heavy cannot be guardbroken when it misses. Yep. Don't know why. I have like 500 hours on him and this is 100% true. Even tested it on bots. But his top and right balors might can be guardbroken when he misses them.... Why?? Why is one different than the other? Celtic curse is meant to be an offensive tool, but it applies absolutely no pressure. The enemy can just choose to block it, and parry the cancel whenever they want. Or if you do the soft-feint into offensive and they try to parry the top, you'll eat a top heavy if they're playing a class with fast heavies, so you're forced to do the extremely risky celtic curse cancel. Why the hell is that a thing? It's absoluetely useless in 1v1, except maybe to catch a bad player who predict rolls instead of react rolls. It needs to be unblockable or it needs something like nobushi's "blockable unblockable" which the hitstuns guarentees her kick when she does a heavy from hidden stance. We need more effective offense. I'm so sick and tired of the enemy easily escaping anything I do. It's so infuriating.

Velentix
11-01-2018, 09:44 PM
The biggest problem though is that lawbringer isn't even the only problem. There is so many undocumented, underlying issues, you cannot even imagine. For example, highlander can halve his dodge recovery by moving his guard left to right as he dodges. Makes him an INCREDIBLE turtle. But, his offense can be rolled entirely or just backwalked, and his only viable option (balors feint into guardbreak) is extremely hard to pull off due to it's low range. Like, this is not a playable game. These underlying, broken things need to be recognized. His left balors might heavy cannot be guardbroken when it misses. Yep. Don't know why. I have like 500 hours on him and this is 100% true. Even tested it on bots. But his top and right balors might can be guardbroken when he misses them.... Why?? Why is one different than the other? Celtic curse is meant to be an offensive tool, but it applies absolutely no pressure. The enemy can just choose to block it, and parry the cancel whenever they want. Or if you do the soft-feint into offensive and they try to parry the top, you'll eat a top heavy if they're playing a class with fast heavies, so you're forced to do the extremely risky celtic curse cancel. Why the hell is that a thing? It's absoluetely useless in 1v1, except maybe to catch a bad player who predict rolls instead of react rolls. It needs to be unblockable or it needs something like nobushi's "blockable unblockable" which the hitstuns guarentees her kick when she does a heavy from hidden stance. We need more effective offense. I'm so sick and tired of the enemy easily escaping anything I do. It's so infuriating.

Shhhh dont say more effective offense, the next char will be 300ms lights and 400ms heavies.

Wookiescantfly
11-01-2018, 09:46 PM
Shhhh dont say more effective offense, the next char will be 300ms lights and 400ms heavies.

Please do not give them ideas. They just might actually do it.

chukblok
11-01-2018, 11:34 PM
I think the developers are, on some level, aware of how god awful the game is at high level play (mainly duels speaking. 4's has it's own issues but the balance between heros more or less isn't as important because the individual is less important than what a hero can bring to a team fight.)
I don't think they attempt to balance the game around that level. Because that would require a lot more work from them. Not just from kit balance (as they'ed have to scrap a lot of the kits anyway) but because core mechanical changes need to be made.

I was in your boat. I took a few months break. I came back and only play the game casually. (venturing into 4's instead of only dueling has greatly helped my sanity with the game.)
I'd suggest a break to you as well. And if you do come back try to find enjoyment in what the game is. I myself still occasionally make suggestions on how to improve parts of the game or hero kits. But i've mostly accepted that what I want from the game is never going to happen. or if anything happens remotely in the direction that I want it likely won't be in my ideal way. So I kinda just let go.

This is true. I just play casual. that way you can enjoy it. Sadly the thing that makes this game cool..unique heroes and combat....is the very reason why it can never be balanced. Thats the way it is. I mean if things were perfectly balanced then every hero would essentially be the same :/.

Illyrian_King
11-02-2018, 01:17 AM
Rework Lawbringer

Hormly
11-02-2018, 01:48 AM
I know you guys may think that balance is important to a fighting game....

OH LOOK HAVE MORE COSTUME PATTERNS

bannex19
11-02-2018, 01:52 AM
Pve breach is the only thing i do now. Think im reupping my champ status? Dreaming ubi. I defended the heck out of this game but mf feels cheap and old heroes barely work.

How are your power points coming? If you need, i can through one together for you on how to rework the remaining heroes. I can also guarantee it will work

mann61299
11-02-2018, 02:44 AM
I am very glad I didn't order the dlc...I will play occasionally a little longer likely, but certainly won't spend any money...and my time will mostly go to other games...the game took a HUGE step backward and there is no movement forward in sight, but enjoy your 10000 steel pumpkin emote...what a joke!

StrOf10kBabies
11-02-2018, 03:08 AM
I'm taking a major break from the game since I have been a Lawbringer main since open beta. There is absolutely zero excuse for the games current state of balance. If you want developers to start listening to you, just stop buying and supporting their product. It's simple logic. One of the biggest problems with For Honor is that there is a clear disconnection of the developers and community player feedback. They have stated openly to the public is that they use in game "data" to do their balancing. This might point back to Roman who is apparently the creative director for For Honor, so he might be the one responsible for the balancing decisions for the game. It's honestly hard to tell if he is the one truly responsible behind the scenes, but it sure doesn't help when he tells everyone to "go learn to play Lawbringer" when I would personally love to see him use the Lawbringer against a competitive conqueror, berserker, shaman, etc. and get destroyed in the process.

With the recent and unexplained Shugoki nerf that happened in this most recent patch, if you haven't found out that this development team has clear no clue what the flying f*ck that they are doing then either you are too ignorant to care about the current state of the game or you must be new. I'm not saying that you are OP, but anyone with some decent time invested in the game will already know the problems that this game has been facing since season 6 and how these developers keep swiping issues under the rug in favor for cosmetics. Thankfully, there are better fighting game alternatives than For Honor right now like Soul Caliber 6. Conqueror's Blade might be promising as long as the devs don't make it ptw so I suggest keeping an eye out on that title too.

MarshalMoriarty
11-02-2018, 04:17 AM
Its alarming how badly they messed up MF. The shameful reset of progression with no compensation or ability to select perks on good gear, the underwhelming Breach mode that is poorly explained and feels just as much of a novelty act as Tribute, the terrible in performance with suspect guard etc.

And of course the Wu Lin with their avalanche of 400Ms light spam and unreactable nonsense. And its not just low tier heroes fedling the squeeze - these guys are running even decent characters like HL out of the game. Because why take HL when you could take Jian Jun? I feel like I've barely seen half the roster since MF dropped.

Xil_h
11-02-2018, 04:58 AM
Did I just read you consider Nobushi overpowered due to HS, OP?
Lolz

SpaceJim12
11-02-2018, 09:29 AM
I was in your boat. I took a few months break. I came back and only play the game casually. (venturing into 4's instead of only dueling has greatly helped my sanity with the game.)
I'd suggest a break to you as well. And if you do come back try to find enjoyment in what the game is. I myself still occasionally make suggestions on how to improve parts of the game or hero kits. But i've mostly accepted that what I want from the game is never going to happen. or if anything happens remotely in the direction that I want it likely won't be in my ideal way. So I kinda just let go.

I think the only way to play now is to play casual. Wu Lin balanced against each other, but on some old heroes you just can't do a thing. I tried to play Shinobi last night, felt myself pretty useless. Looks like people could CGB his range with closed eyes. And Wu Lin...wow, you could do double dodge countless times, but dancing Tiandi still be far away from your kick. And I could think I'm just suck, but next game I took Orochi and have 30 kills in Breach, was on top with my score in both teams. Reworked chars can somehow be on level with new chars, but what about PK, for example? Nuxia it's like PK+Shaman on steroids, so why devs nerf PK at first place? Now all PK mainers could use Nuxia and be same annoying and effective.
I'm not complaining about new heroes, it's not a point. I could kill em. Thing that bothering me, is that devs were to busy or too lazy to reworked all old cast heroes BEFORE Wu Lin. To understand how it coud be, look at Kensei. He hell of a guy. Not OP, not UP. And he got all the tools to make Wu Lin suffer. I played couple game on Kensei and feel fine. Noone looks like OP for me, I killed, I died and I had fun.
Someone could say "why not play Wu Lin"? Easy. I don't like them. Maybe if Ubi add Kung Fu master with knuckles I play as him. But none of new heroes looks intresting for me. And people who prefer to play on LB, Warlord, PK, Shino, Ara or Nobu sould have tools to deal with Wu Lin and be effective.

Knight_Raime
11-02-2018, 10:44 AM
I think the only way to play now is to play casual. Wu Lin balanced against each other, but on some old heroes you just can't do a thing. I tried to play Shinobi last night, felt myself pretty useless. Looks like people could CGB his range with closed eyes. And Wu Lin...wow, you could do double dodge countless times, but dancing Tiandi still be far away from your kick. And I could think I'm just suck, but next game I took Orochi and have 30 kills in Breach, was on top with my score in both teams. Reworked chars can somehow be on level with new chars, but what about PK, for example? Nuxia it's like PK+Shaman on steroids, so why devs nerf PK at first place? Now all PK mainers could use Nuxia and be same annoying and effective.
I'm not complaining about new heroes, it's not a point. I could kill em. Thing that bothering me, is that devs were to busy or too lazy to reworked all old cast heroes BEFORE Wu Lin. To understand how it coud be, look at Kensei. He hell of a guy. Not OP, not UP. And he got all the tools to make Wu Lin suffer. I played couple game on Kensei and feel fine. Noone looks like OP for me, I killed, I died and I had fun.
Someone could say "why not play Wu Lin"? Easy. I don't like them. Maybe if Ubi add Kung Fu master with knuckles I play as him. But none of new heroes looks intresting for me. And people who prefer to play on LB, Warlord, PK, Shino, Ara or Nobu sould have tools to deal with Wu Lin and be effective.

I mean realistically speaking the only way you could play competitive for several months now was if you were basically one of the best players in the game. Because the stuff you start fighting in high tier makes normal play even between two fairly decent players look like a joke. It's hilariously awful how little is actually viable at that level. Basically I was just telling OP that you can't really take the game seriously anymore if you want to keep your enjoyment with the game. It's been like that for months now. It just took a few months long break for me to accept it.

As for your talk of the OG roster I would agree to an extent. heros who are still not really polished struggle against wu-lin. Nobushi and Lawbringer are two good examples of this. But I feel like most of the OG cast can fight at least 2 of the wu-lin on nearly fair ground. Dlc roster wise mostly no. Really only highlander stands a decent chance against most of them. Glad maybe if he's REALLY good at spacing and not struggling with his fast guard decay. Aramusha, centurion, and shinobi all struggle immensely with them. I haven't had the chance to use shaman against the wu-lin yet. But I don't see why she'd struggle against any. Sans maybe Jiang jun.

SpaceJim12
11-02-2018, 11:24 AM
I mean realistically speaking the only way you could play competitive for several months now was if you were basically one of the best players in the game. Because the stuff you start fighting in high tier makes normal play even between two fairly decent players look like a joke. It's hilariously awful how little is actually viable at that level. Basically I was just telling OP that you can't really take the game seriously anymore if you want to keep your enjoyment with the game. It's been like that for months now. It just took a few months long break for me to accept it.

As for your talk of the OG roster I would agree to an extent. heros who are still not really polished struggle against wu-lin. Nobushi and Lawbringer are two good examples of this. But I feel like most of the OG cast can fight at least 2 of the wu-lin on nearly fair ground. Dlc roster wise mostly no. Really only highlander stands a decent chance against most of them. Glad maybe if he's REALLY good at spacing and not struggling with his fast guard decay. Aramusha, centurion, and shinobi all struggle immensely with them. I haven't had the chance to use shaman against the wu-lin yet. But I don't see why she'd struggle against any. Sans maybe Jiang jun.

And best players play should look really strange, I think. Outside of meta characters, of course. I see how people now could bite to parry with your feint, and then cancel their own heavy. And that's on really average play. I think most of "mind games" even can't work on top tier gameplay.

LB and Nobu bad not only against Wu Lin. The problem here is their kits and limits. I met very good Nobu last night (and I played Nobushi too) and our fight was so stupid. She new all my moves and tricks, I knew her. And while I could kill other 3 enemies at once, I can't beated her during this match same as she can't beated me. Same with LB. After shove he can do only GB or attack. Dodge, or CGB. And while all this not a Wu Lin problem directly, still I can't accept, that devs choose to add 4 new heroes with so much options and forget about old chars. I think Wu Lin could be good separate from Breach. Second game birthday would be a nice time to add them. And instead of Wu Lin we could see reworks for others character, who deffinitly not on Wu Lin level at all.

Vakris_One
11-02-2018, 02:47 PM
This is true. I just play casual. that way you can enjoy it. Sadly the thing that makes this game cool..unique heroes and combat....is the very reason why it can never be balanced. Thats the way it is. I mean if things were perfectly balanced then every hero would essentially be the same :/.
More heroes can absolutely be made viable without making them the same thing. Kensei, Zerker, Warden, Shaman, Highlander for example are all quite viable without being the same thing. I would put Conq in there too but he's only viable because of a single overtuned move so that doesn't really count. It is however very possible for this game to be a lot more balanced than what it is currently, it's just that the developers are either incapable or unwilling to put the work in to balance it properly. Shiny cosmetics and a half-arsed PvE mode seem to be more important to them.

The game's progress has stalled for the time being until the devs decide to get serious about the balance between heroes. Until that happens, if it ever does happen, this game is best taken as nothing but a casual experience with a very limited shelf life. The competitive side of things have closed down. The biggest competitive Discord group For Glory stopped organising and hosting tournaments because of the sorry state that high level play has been left in for months by the devs.

If you can find some fun in playing For Honor casually for the flawed mess that it is then go for it. If not it's best to put this game down and wait for a time when the devs get back to balancing it.

RoyalAhole
11-02-2018, 03:24 PM
The funny part is no one wanted this "expansion" if you can call a new game mode an expansion. People just want a balanced game, now imagine how many players would come back if they
balanced the game instead of this joke that probably took them all the time to develop. Before the expansion steam stats showed 17k daily peak, now it's barely 13k after the expansion...
Same for Halloween event, you can't get into a game...Dominion is very high and Breach medium, says enough about it.

Illyrian_King
11-02-2018, 05:58 PM
The funny part is no one wanted this "expansion" if you can call a new game mode an expansion. People just want a balanced game, now imagine how many players would come back if they
balanced the game instead of this joke that probably took them all the time to develop. Before the expansion steam stats showed 17k daily peak, now it's barely 13k after the expansion...
Same for Halloween event, you can't get into a game...Dominion is very high and Breach medium, says enough about it.

Nope this isn't true.

The forum and reddit was overfilled with posts about a Siege Mode and new heroes/factions.

I am for balance too, but the game was literally unplayable because of such a limited amount of content. I am here since the very beginning and having Dominion as the "biggest" thing in FH was underwhelming even after a week. Not to mention 2 years and more if you also include Alpha and Beta into consideration.

Breach was and is the biggest and best thing they ever introduced, but it needs way more maps and now should be the focus on this and balancing stuff.

Obliged_HL
11-02-2018, 06:52 PM
Did I just read you consider Nobushi overpowered due to HS, OP?
Lolz

It lets her completely shut down any of warden's bashes at any timing, all of them. If that isn't overpowered, I don't know what is. Warden isn't even the only one she can shut down entirely.

Obliged_HL
11-02-2018, 07:00 PM
More heroes can absolutely be made viable without making them the same thing. Kensei, Zerker, Warden, Shaman, Highlander for example are all quite viable without being the same thing. I would put Conq in there too but he's only viable because of a single overtuned move so that doesn't really count. It is however very possible for this game to be a lot more balanced than what it is currently, it's just that the developers are either incapable or unwilling to put the work in to balance it properly. Shiny cosmetics and a half-arsed PvE mode seem to be more important to them.


If you think conq is powerful because of his bash you might still be new.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
11-02-2018, 07:54 PM
I think every character had an op move which is fine. Even shugoki has his one shot kill. A lagging nabushi is frustrating to deal with and a good conquer is it nearly impenetrable. Breach is an objective base game with a little Kd mixed in on the attacking side. The characters don't have to be perfectly balanced to win this game mode but it would help if they werent so unbalanced as they are currently.

Sweaty_Sock
11-02-2018, 10:26 PM
Group modes are borderline unplayable with the sheer amount of unblockable spam these days, the 4x new charaacters are perfect examples... took 2 weeks for the old zerk/shaman spammers to adapt and now they are away gooning with the same combos over and over...

I'm currently on indefinite hiatus after deleting the game, as was said earlier - the games moving in a direction I dont like (been going that way for a year...) so at some point just had to cut my losses.

Obliged_HL
11-02-2018, 10:41 PM
Group modes are borderline unplayable with the sheer amount of unblockable spam these days, the 4x new charaacters are perfect examples... took 2 weeks for the old zerk/shaman spammers to adapt and now they are away gooning with the same combos over and over...

I'm currently on indefinite hiatus after deleting the game, as was said earlier - the games moving in a direction I dont like (been going that way for a year...) so at some point just had to cut my losses.

This is not even issue, you're complaining about nothing. If the enemy team is doing it you can do it too. What I'm talking about is far greater than something as trival as this. Unblockables are most effective way of killing someone in a gank, otherwise it would take way too long for someone to die.