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View Full Version : Tiandi/Nuxia discussion and buff suggestions.



Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 09:01 PM
I haven't quite formulated my opinion on Shaolin yet nor have I actually spent time with JJ. So my opinions and suggested changes for them will have to come at a later date. Today I want to discuss the two heros i've been playing the most, Tiandi and Nuxia. I've played them both a fair bit in duels and in 4's. I'm painfully aware how early of an opinion on both is right now. And for that reason i'm not going to think that my proposed changes are the right ones to make. But I do believe that the flaws I will be pointing out are flaws that will not change regardless of how much time I get with them. And ultimately they will need to be addressed at some point down the line. SO with that out of the way lets discuss the easier to talk about hero first.


Tiandi:

The problems with him are simple. His dragon dodge is not a very good dodge tool. Frame data checking has shown that he has about 300ms of I frames during his whole dodge. (500ms if you manage to cancel into another dodge heavy.) His I frames on his tiger dodge are not present unless you delay a little. But more on that later. The primary method of dodging this attack uses is actually moving the hit box around. So you're literally dodging instead of mechanically dodging. The problem with this is a majority of the attacks in the game are wide sweeping slashes of some kind. This means his dodge heavy is only realistically good at avoid thrust attacks and bash based mix ups.

His other glaring issue is his mix ups off of dragon dodge. I could get behind his dragon dodge heavy being more situational as the rest of his kit is actually pretty decent. But the problem is his tiger dodge (aka dodge light) and his kick are not good rewards for putting himself at risk with dragon dodge. His tiger dodge doesn't have standard I frames unless you delay. And even if you can manage a delay you have very little I frames. Even ignoring that for whatever reason the superior block frames are on the dodge itself and not the attack. This forces it to be a situational read instead of a reactionary punish to someone trying to smack tiandi out of his dodge heavy. Which I believe is the intended design for the move.

His kick can only come from a blocked or landed heavy or his zone. And even though you can CGB on reaction to someone dodging it you don't get rewarded for landing it. As Tiandi can only get damage off of it if the person is knocked into a corner and there is proper spacing. I get that it's a tool designed mainly to remove someone in 4's. But it just doesn't fit the bill.

Solutions: I think what needs to happen here is the devs need to take one of two paths. This current one or a different one entirely. Lets just look at this current one. How would we make this version of tiandi work? I would suggest giving dragon dodge enough I frames to carry him to his hard or soft feint time. Then make His superior block frames activate immediately instead of 100ms-200ms into the dodge. Kick wise I think he should be able to dash cancel the end recovery of it. that way he can threaten with damage thus encouraging people to actually dodge it outside of environment death threat. If adding frames to his dragon dodge is out of the question then i'd suggest shortening the attack from 1100ms to 1000ms. That way it can actually punish situationally.


Nuxia:

I love her. Probably more than Shaolin actually. Her concept is very interesting. But she has a lot of flaws. Her deflect is under performing. It's punishable on read by a lot of heros whenever she deflects a light. She has to switch the attack direction on heavies to confirm it. On slow attacks/high recovery moves she doesn't. Her being able to add her zone into her 3 hit combo is cool. But her zone ends her combo. The zone itself can't option select like most can. This is because it's slow. And due to how traps are you can't option select that way. Which means it's value is nill. Her traps are reactable. Because they're essentially 800ms. (400ms into the heavy. the trap itself is 400ms) Meaning you can throw any attack that's faster than 800ms basically on reaction to seeing the trap itself.

People can just unlock to cause it to whiff automatically and due to the change of unlocked attacks you can more reliably use unlock attacks in this fashion. Even disregarding all of that her traps also end her combos. and you can still light her out of her traps on reaction when OOS. Basically put Her opponent can react to everything. She always has to read.

Solutions: Firstly. I would speed up her zone in combo. from 1000ms to 800ms. Her neutral zone would still serve to be a decent minion clear or to throw as a raw attack when someone is spacing. Making it faster in her combo means it would be harder for her opponent to react to the inclusion of it in her combos. Her zone should serve as a chain starter as well. Her deflect should become a multi tool deflect. Those options would be as follows: Light input=enhanced light, heavy input for final heavy in chain that can be turned into a trap, and GB input to do an automatic trap from her right side. Finally to address traps themselves.

Two possible solutions. We shorten her heavies from 800ms to 700ms and make traps 300ms attacks. (giving a window of 600ms to react instead of 800ms) and if her trap whiffs due to the target not having a guard (i.e unlocking/emoting) it's an untechable GB. OR still change the timings as i've mentioned. But let it grapple heavy attacks during the entire trap animation.

I suggest shortening the time on her heavies and traps for two reasons. Firstly 700ms heavies or faster are immune to feint into GB games on reaction. Making her heavies safer to throw in general. Which is important for her playstyle. And making traps 300ms animation wise when combined with the heavy change means the person can't easily throw a wide variety of attacks into her traps and beat her trap. 600ms window basically means lights only (aside from centurion) and at that point you're risking a light parry if you don't read the situation right.
The second half of each are attempts at addressing the other issue with her traps. Solution A tackles unlock/emote issues. Solution B addresses people miss timing themselves on parry reaction in order to negate her trap and get in a lot more damage.


TLDR:

Tiandi has a great kit overall. it just needs a bit of polish to make his mix ups good. Nuxia is an interesting kit with a lot of potential. But needs a lot of changes to make the concept a reality.

TLDR solutions:

Tiandi: Either give 400-500ms I frames on dragon dodge. OR shorten the attack to 1000ms. Superior block property on tiger dodge is now instant. Now can cancel end recovery of kick with dash/dodge.

Nuxia: Deflect now has 3 inputs. enhanced light, finisher heavy(can become trap), and straight up trap from the right side. Zone in combo is now 800ms and is a chain starter. Heavies are now 700ms. Traps are now 300ms. Either let traps auto GB people who have no guard. Or allow traps to auto grab a heavy during trap animation (if the heavy is in the same direction as trap.)

SangLong524
10-27-2018, 10:13 PM
tiandi: these dodges are so problematic for Tiandi himself. The window of opportunity is so small for Tiger dodge that you have to delay light attack for it to be a dodge. I have been consistently hit by shaman's unblockable finisher during Dragon dodge as well. So what make him a dodge specialist?! The usual tactic i use for Dragon dodge is cancelling it to forward hyper armor heavy.
Aren't light finishers supposed to be guaranteed? I get level 3 bots parry light finishers after Palm strike and combo.
The Flow like Water property makes his movesets interesting,I think. it effectively makes every combos a 3-hit combo. Still, I wish it can cancel finisher recovery as well.
A question: what is this "option select"? I've seen people talk about it with conqueror's zone attack but I don't see the description and what it does anywhere.

Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 10:37 PM
tiandi: these dodges are so problematic for Tiandi himself. The window of opportunity is so small for Tiger dodge that you have to delay light attack for it to be a dodge. I have been consistently hit by shaman's unblockable finisher during Dragon dodge as well. So what make him a dodge specialist?! The usual tactic i use for Dragon dodge is cancelling it to forward hyper armor heavy.
Aren't light finishers supposed to be guaranteed? I get level 3 bots parry light finishers after Palm strike and combo.
The Flow like Water property makes his movesets interesting,I think. it effectively makes every combos a 3-hit combo. Still, I wish it can cancel finisher recovery as well.
A question: what is this "option select"? I've seen people talk about it with conqueror's zone attack but I don't see the description and what it does anywhere.

Yes you're supposed to get a light finisher after palm strike if it connects. But I don't think light finishers are guaranteed any other time. are you buffering your light from palm strike? (means inputting the light while you're hitting palm strike.

And option select in plain terms means you're pressing one button/doing one action that counters/covers 2 or more options from the opponent. In a zone option select pressing that while attempting to parry an attack does one of two things. either your timing was correct and you parry. Or you don't get the parry timing and you instead zone and beat the attack.

SangLong524
10-27-2018, 10:53 PM
I see. Thanks for clarification

Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 11:08 PM
I see. Thanks for clarification

no problem

UbiInsulin
10-27-2018, 11:11 PM
Thanks for bringing up specific tweaks for the team to look at! The concerns with Tiandi's Dragon Dodge i-frames and Nuxia's deflect have definitely been noted for the team.

Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 11:31 PM
Thanks for bringing up specific tweaks for the team to look at! The concerns with Tiandi's Dragon Dodge i-frames and Nuxia's deflect have definitely been noted for the team.

I should hope they don't go back to his old I frames. We just want his dodge to be more reliable. Not unpunishable during his attack.

Yama_Uba
10-28-2018, 02:19 AM
When Tiandi first came out for testing, his Tiger Dodge “did” have superior block property active on start up.

It was changed to make superior block more of a risk reward option for heavy attacks.

Either you parry for 15 damage or your risk the superior block and get a free palm strike.

Or they feint and punish you for trying to Tiger dodge.

It is possible to still catch attacks during a Dragon dodge cancel into Tiger dodge.

I agree his I-frames need an adjustment. It’s not consistent enough in it current state.

SixAxe505
10-28-2018, 02:41 AM
I have played around a bit with Nuxia and I have come to a similar conclusion on her supposed changes here. My idea was to make her trap mechanic also function as option select parry. If it ran into an opponents attack during the animation it could either proc the trap at a lower damage value than the original or act as a parry. I have the exact same thoughts on the zone. Either speed it up and make it have chain link 1 as a property while reducing the stamina cost of it or increase the damage, lower the stamina slightly while making it unblockable. The second change would force more reactions to it, therefore potentially allowing the trap to hit, alternatively, you can give Nuxia hyper armor on the zone with unblockable. If so you can keep the same speed and power. Hard changes to her kit as far as new animations and what not, I would like you to consider a dash heavy attack, forward and sides. This would allow her to use the dash attack as a way to close distance and potentially throw a trap at the same time.

OdinHatesMe
10-28-2018, 08:55 AM
Thanks for bringing up specific tweaks for the team to look at! The concerns with Tiandi's Dragon Dodge i-frames and Nuxia's deflect have definitely been noted for the team.

ABOUT TIANDI


he is kinda good hero so far but 2 things needs to be adjust in my opinon.First tiandi deflects are useless because they have 300ms start up, u cannot deflect someone on reaction unless its the slowest attack in the game and its a light attack so i can get parryed so its not good thing to go deflect with tiandi. Second one is i cannot do switch target the kick in team fights or antiganks i can only kick the one who i hit with heavy or zone.In my opinon if u could switch target his kick in anti-gank situation it would be very nice! Plus his dragon dodge iframes man... he suppose to be dodge specialitst but i am getting hit while trying to dodge so make his iframes 900ms again because he is not a good offensive hero so make his speacialty better pls!

Gianturion
10-28-2018, 01:52 PM
I agree so much with this. It makes me rage so hard when my enemies emote/disengage during my traps and don't get punished for it because it's so annoying and makes no sense whatsoever,her deflect should be guaranteed no matter what imo. She has a very low health pool so 40 dmg on deflect is justified,you can even bring her to mid health with just one heavy (Shug f.e.). She needs more mixups,speedups and new mechanics to be more viable,I think the final heavy/zone should be unblockable to force a reaction out of the opponent (she has no unblockables) and her traps should be more lethal to those who decide to disengage or emote (you're basically out in the open by disengaging),that would force her opponent to actually think twice before taunting her. And also,new chains are more than welcome,but first speed up her zone attack and her heavies because the traps are very predictable,you can just throw out a light because it takes 800ms before the trap actually works. Overall,I don't like how you have to read your opponent to be able to deal some damage but your enemy can just throw out attacks,disengage or emote without being punished for it,it makes me look dumb for even trying. I think Tiandi is actually balanced but I agree with you,his dragon dodge is inconsistent and his kick is useless because it's easily dodgeable and it gives you nothing except when there's a ledge or a spike. I have played him quite a bit and I like him,especially the insane amount of mixups he haves,it blows my mind when people say he's op because he's not,you just have to watch him closely to avoid getting punished for trying a parry. I would nerf JJ tbh because he's too fast for a heavy,however I would like him to have more options because he's so bad in a 1v1 even a pk can kill him easily and that's ridiculous. I'm conflicted about Shaolin,I would nerf his kick because its startup animation is too fast but overall he's pretty good.