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xBeetis
10-27-2018, 03:49 PM
How are you going to add a character that has just about every tool all other characters have.. he has crushing counters, unblockables, sweep, DODGE attacks, and deflect... its ****ing broken.. maybe im jsut too slow to go against shoalin. but he needs to be nerfed. bad. too bad ubisoft doesnt put that kind of detail and care into older characters... #foreveradyinggame

Tareyus
10-27-2018, 04:19 PM
because wulin is the money grab faction. Feels like cod at this point with all the let downs and devs not listening.

Warlordguy
10-27-2018, 06:35 PM
It's no surprise. But the people who use OP characters tell us all to git gud. Which unfortunately is what we have to do. We have to be 1000x better than our opponent simply because of the characters we all choose to play as. That's the logic of the game unfortunately. It's very stupid, but not so shocking that you're expected to pay $30 USD to access these characters. Making them OP is an incentive to draw money out of our pockets just to stay competitive. I literally just light spam them with Orochi half the time and it does the trick. The idea of beating ridiculous characters by using other ridiculous characters.... no game should be like that.

TSCDescon
10-27-2018, 06:45 PM
Its no news for everyone that Ubisoft is a company that has horrible balancing.

Mindset of the developers is like this, "He rep 60 with Lawbringer/Shugoki? Ok, they both are in a good spot, let's forget about them and rework Warden and Valk". Not saying Warden/Valk don't need a rework, but most can agree that Law/Shug are way more in a TERRIBLE state than those two.

UbiInsulin
10-28-2018, 12:14 AM
How are you going to add a character that has just about every tool all other characters have.. he has crushing counters, unblockables, sweep, DODGE attacks, and deflect... its ****ing broken.. maybe im jsut too slow to go against shoalin. but he needs to be nerfed. bad. too bad ubisoft doesnt put that kind of detail and care into older characters... #foreveradyinggame

What specific changes would you make to Shaolin?

I did see people remarking that the newer characters' movesets make the older characters look more flawed in comparison. I've made sure to let the team know that some players are feeling this way.

Yama_Uba
10-28-2018, 01:02 AM
How are you going to add a character that has just about every tool all other characters have.. he has crushing counters, unblockables, sweep, DODGE attacks, and deflect... its ****ing broken.. maybe im jsut too slow to go against shoalin. but he needs to be nerfed. bad. too bad ubisoft doesnt put that kind of detail and care into older characters... #foreveradyinggame

Have you heard of Shaman? People cried rivers claiming the same thing when she first came out. It was the same for centurion, shinobi, and gladiator.

Apparently people cried rivers over Aramusha as well, which blows my mind.

People complained shamans kit was broken and she had all almost all the benefits of most of the roster with little to no downsides....etc etc.

Now a new faction has come out and everyone is crying because they have to adjust their play styles and learn how to beat them.

Go to training and play against them for awhile and youíll find that they arenít that powerful.

Turk-Adam
10-28-2018, 01:04 AM
What specific changes would you make to Shaolin?

I did see people remarking that the newer characters' movesets make the older characters look more flawed in comparison. I've made sure to let the team know that some players are feeling this way.

This is a cop out piece I see from ubi reps. I mean he just told you the problem. Last I checked it's up to the developer to make the changes based off consumer feedback. Shaolin does have more options then any other hero in the game.

Fun tidbit: https://www.ubisoft.com/en-us/contact-us.html

Terms of idea submission term #2. I'll paraphrase. Ubisoft doesn't give a **** what feedback you might have.

Cyroy95
10-28-2018, 01:41 AM
My main issue with Shaolin is how untelegraphed his attacks are, with one of them being just a completely straigh short tap. Even though it's just a 500ms light attack like most of the cast has, by the time my eyes register an attack happening it has already happened. At least Orochi swipes his attacks, so does PK and Nuxia as a better example makes overexegerated movements.

ArmoredChocobo
10-28-2018, 01:55 AM
After training mode with Shaolin that notion is laughable.

Everything hinges on his Qi stance, and he canít enter it neutral. Best he can do to enter Qi quickly is whiff a light.

His heavies are slow and predictable. If he throws one from neutral, 9 out of 10 times heís baiting you.

If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block.

His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick.

His Qi heavies can both be parried. Qi side has no iframes, or at least very few.

Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kenseiís and has nowhere near as many iframes.

His triple-poke is side-only.

If youíre losing to a Shao, youíre simply getting outplayed, man.

From what I find the only problematic Wulin is JJ.

David_gorda
10-28-2018, 02:10 AM
^ whats the speed of tripple poke? 400ms? Total damage is more then 20 right? Whats problematic with JJ? I find him easiest to fight against. I dont have access to wu lin so i havent played them.

Cyroy95
10-28-2018, 02:15 AM
First poke is 500ms, second and third are guaranteed on hit of the first.

SixAxe505
10-28-2018, 03:53 AM
So the Shaolin issue is 2 parts. The 1st part is not knowing the character. The new training mode that let's you go through a characters moveset is great tool to familiarize yourself with the character from it's viewpoint, once you know that the other half of step one is training against specific moves with your chosen character and seeing what you have at your disposal to counter them. The second part of the issue is actually overpowered mechanics like a 400ms neutral from top that pretty much guarantees qi stance and 12 damage. Then there is the weird thing with him that his animations don't match his damage just slighty enough to where you can get thrown off and take hits you swear you should have blocked or parried. This is an unintentional advantage he has...or hopefully not intentional...best to block instead of try for parries.

GayForShugoki
10-28-2018, 04:13 AM
I really hope Ubi aren't nerfing heroes because people just cry about them because they didn't play them and learn their kit. I learned to counter Shaolin without ever playing him and then realised how easy he is to beat when I did play him. It's the same with Tiandi and Nuxia. Granted, Shaolin's feats are a tad bull, but that's his role. He's meant to be mobile. It's just asinine.

I guess it's easier to whine than learn how to play.

MarshalMoriarty
10-28-2018, 06:55 AM
Or instead of dismissing any criticism as whining, you could reflect that after 2 years they have yet to balance even half the roster and further bungled the reworks.

So why would we accept any suggestion that these characters would be the exception to that trend? Its the same problem again - the only way they can think of to make characters powerful is to make them super fast. It doesn't matter if they are in fact op or not. They are utterly tiresome to fight.

DeathByFluffles
10-28-2018, 07:15 AM
the only way they can think of to make characters powerful is to make them super fast. It doesn't matter if they are in fact op or not. They are utterly tiresome to fight.

****ing this. I am so tired of the light speed in this game. 500ms should be the FASTEST anything gets. Ever. Why?
A youtuber made a video on the BEST in the For Honor community and how fast they can react to attacks. Want to hear it? 213ms was the BEST speed. Subtract the bonus 100 for guard switching and an average of 50 for latency and you have a grand ****ing 37ms window to react to half the lights in the assassin class. That's not even a test of skill, considering the AVERAGE among the BEST players was around 260-280. Want to redo the math? DON'T BOTHER. It means the majority of the playerbase IS LITERALLY UNABLE TO REACT to 450ms or faster lights. It's all guesswork. THAT'S NOT A TEST OF SKILL, that is a test of how many hours you've been abused by this game. You don't learn a character, you learn the most-used spam patterns of the player.

So sick of this light spammy ********. Let's not get into the fact that the biggest offenders who DO spam lights HAVE A FREE COMBO CHAIN OF OTHER, EQUALLY FAST LIGHTS OFF OF IT. Shugoki has a SINGLE light of 580ms. He has no real combo to follow it. It's used to trade. AS ALL LIGHTS SHOULD BE. Why? Name me a single ****ing REAL sword style that focuses on killing by a thousand, shallow cuts. NAME ONE! Oh? What's that? THEY DON'T EXIST BECAUSE TAKING THE CHANCE TO INSTANTLY SLAY YOUR OPPONENT IS THE SMART THING TO DO!?

**** this game. **** the light spam assassin meta. **** it.

Tyrjo
10-28-2018, 09:23 AM
Have you heard of Shaman? People cried rivers claiming the same thing when she first came out. It was the same for centurion, shinobi, and gladiator.

Apparently people cried rivers over Aramusha as well, which blows my mind.

People complained shamans kit was broken and she had all almost all the benefits of most of the roster with little to no downsides....etc etc.

Now a new faction has come out and everyone is crying because they have to adjust their play styles and learn how to beat them.

Go to training and play against them for awhile and youíll find that they arenít that powerful.

The difference is that a characters power stands in relation to the other cast. Shaman was frickin good when she was released, she did get some nerfs though and what has happened after that? Quite a few heroes have gotten their reworks so the Shaman doesn't stand out in comparison to the rest of the heroes in the same way any longer.

Arekonator
10-28-2018, 12:50 PM
First poke is 500ms, second and third are guaranteed on hit of the first.

His top light opener is 400ms.

xBeetis
10-28-2018, 01:56 PM
your post is ignorant and off topic, gtfoh lmao

ArmoredChocobo
10-28-2018, 03:11 PM
His top light opener is 400ms.

Which can only chain into Qi or a heavy.

Canít use his fastest poke if youíre guarding up, and his side pokes are slower. Blocking any of them makes him wide open.

Shaolin has no opener game.

UbiInsulin
10-28-2018, 07:09 PM
This is a cop out piece I see from ubi reps. I mean he just told you the problem. Last I checked it's up to the developer to make the changes based off consumer feedback. Shaolin does have more options then any other hero in the game.

Fun tidbit: https://www.ubisoft.com/en-us/contact-us.html

Terms of idea submission term #2. I'll paraphrase. Ubisoft doesn't give a **** what feedback you might have.

It is in no way a cop out. The unsolicited ideas policy clearly does not apply because I just solicited feedback. That policy is mainly there for when people pitch their game ideas to us.

Specific moves or areas of the kit that need looking at would be helpful to me in writing something more comprehensive to summarize the community's feelings - i.e. do these aspects of Shaolin need less damage, less speed, or to be less safe, for example.

CSaunders95
10-28-2018, 09:38 PM
It is in no way a cop out. The unsolicited ideas policy clearly does not apply because I just solicited feedback. That policy is mainly there for when people pitch their game ideas to us.

Specific moves or areas of the kit that need looking at would be helpful to me in writing something more comprehensive to summarize the community's feelings - i.e. do these aspects of Shaolin need less damage, less speed, or to be less safe, for example.

Let me put this in a nicer way than the arrogant man above me.

Basically the problem with the Shaolin is a lot of his attacks are extremely unreactable on console. I think this stems not just because they are generally fast but because the problem is his incoming attacks are not very prominent in his animations, due to the nature of his weapon.

Every character apart from him has a bladed or large weapon and their guard stance is clearly shown by which side they hold their weapon without the need for the widget.
The Shaolin on the other hand has extremely minor movements with his guard hand, which means if he is about to throw his attack you need to literally wait for the red guard stance to show, which when we're talking 400-500ms is extremely hard.


Another point to note is a lot of his attacks appear to be undodgable which means assassins struggle a huge amount, because they rely on dodge attacks to counter attack quick moves. Seeing as half the roster is assassin based, this is probably where the frustration stems from. Not many characters actually have undodgable moves and the ones that do are easily recognised, however the Shaolins look and feel very similar to his other attacks, couple that in to his animations being extremely hard to read and you have a killer combo. As most people will try and dodge them, and the tracking will just kick in.


I think the best way to balance him, would be to either exadurate his arm movements to more easily convey his intentions and guard stance or remove the undodgable properties on some of his attacks, meaning that he can be punished more easily by dodges.



I think if you were to play Shaolin in hardcore mode without the stance widget, he would probably be neigh unreadable.

I think that is honestly the problem, as most characters in hardcore mode can be read just from the character actions, however Shaolin has pretty must a consistent hidden stance effectively from his weapon. Combined with his moveset and its just too much.

Turk-Adam
10-28-2018, 09:46 PM
It is in no way a cop out. The unsolicited ideas policy clearly does not apply because I just solicited feedback. That policy is mainly there for when people pitch their game ideas to us.

Specific moves or areas of the kit that need looking at would be helpful to me in writing something more comprehensive to summarize the community's feelings - i.e. do these aspects of Shaolin need less damage, less speed, or to be less safe, for example.

I meant I hear that a lot from ubi reps on the forums and I'm not sure the community is being heard. With all the issues around balancing we get a warriors den about cosmetics...

I don't want to be the guy that says nerf this or nerf that. I like Shaolin, I don't play it but it's nice.

I'm merely agreeing with the OP that Shaolin does in fact have too many fancy tricks compared to the other heroes in the game. It creates a multi-facet offense for the Shaolin.

The older heroes we've grown intimate with are just left in the back burner playing defensive hoping to catch a mistake to get a counter attack.

I would encourage the development team to recognize the problems that are in the game per others on the forums and consider older heroes when designing new ones or making changes.

iadvisoryi
10-28-2018, 09:52 PM
It's no surprise. But the people who use OP characters tell us all to git gud. Which unfortunately is what we have to do. We have to be 1000x better than our opponent simply because of the characters we all choose to play as. That's the logic of the game unfortunately. It's very stupid, but not so shocking that you're expected to pay $30 USD to access these characters. Making them OP is an incentive to draw money out of our pockets just to stay competitive. I literally just light spam them with Orochi half the time and it does the trick. The idea of beating ridiculous characters by using other ridiculous characters.... no game should be like that.

They did that with the last bunch nobody complained, it's DLC. Shaolin isn't broken, all of the wulin are fine, they're all strong but none broken, so go practice. Anyone who thinks it's pay to win get out of the community, never use any dlc characters then, it's not pay to win, it's pay for early access, go practice and yes git gud because they're balanced and I use low tier characters.

Rhyza.
10-28-2018, 10:44 PM
What specific changes would you make to Shaolin?

I did see people remarking that the newer characters' movesets make the older characters look more flawed in comparison. I've made sure to let the team know that some players are feeling this way.

Err, you did make the older characters mostly irrelevant. Just look at Tiandi. He was given so many tools to work with for a Vanguard, while Warden was reduced to a SB spam bot, Raider who's only gimmick is his carry, and Kensei into a turtle. JJ is just an assassin with a heavies hyper armor and infinite stamina, Nuxia is the more balanced type, just because she can't play as aggressively as the others, and Shaolin is god with every tool in the game offered to him.

My issue is that they all have great kits. They just leave everybody else in their class in the dust. Why play the other 18 characters when you have these four that can do everything everybody else can, just better?

The.All.Father
10-28-2018, 11:00 PM
They did that with the last bunch nobody complained, it's DLC. Shaolin isn't broken, all of the wulin are fine, they're all strong but none broken, so go practice. Anyone who thinks it's pay to win get out of the community, never use any dlc characters then, it's not pay to win, it's pay for early access, go practice and yes git gud because they're balanced and I use low tier characters.

Hahahaha, yeah right buddy. Shugoki is on the same spot as shaolin, and Raider is the best duelist, shaolin dont have chances with them !!1!1 When u are devoted to a game, and u play it everyday it is not fun to lose over and over with new chars, not cause u dont know the moves, but for the fact that u know, and u cant do nothing to stop it.They are not balanced when we compare them to the OG cast without rework. SURE, u can win against them, but it doesn't mean that they are balanced xD (i think your brain need this explanation man.). It is about the speed of attacks, feats (christ, dont tell me that teleporting kick is ok...) and whole POSSIBLE mix ups and many more. My opinion is, that they are not even close to be balanced if we compare them to the OG cast (including fatboi and daddy and raider and more), but with whom u think we should compare them ? Only between their own faction or what? THIS is why u dont add to the rotten core. First u need to fix it UBI. And u iadvisoryi, i bet u are not playing low tier, but u are definitely low brain with your "git gud", tfu.

Herbstlicht
10-29-2018, 12:32 AM
So much hate and mainly only because something is new. Not gonna say I can exactly tell where Shaolin stands on console, but I don't think he beats out berserker or orochi when it comes to reactability. Keeping guard top helps against top lights. His heavy is easily distinguished from neutral and slow. If he goes for side light, you can block, Dodge, Parry. If he really lands his chain, the damage isn't all that high. Now from qi people that panic get a problem, people that don't have a good time. Basically, it's dodging to evade a top light due to kick or wait for any other attack. Side heavys are slow and can be parried, top heavy too. Side lights can be parried as well, though those are rather fast. Now if a berserker hits you with his zone, a few times with his chain or even gets a finisher in ... How much more damage does he deal? Really, if you're struggling with fast attacks, Shaolin isn't the worst offender due a not-too-spammy gameplay that enables the opponent to strike himself. Only thing that might be strong is his teleport kick. But many fears in breach are strong. You just need to use them right. Anyway, I am convinced that balancing is good those days. Conq still a little over the top, maybe JJ too strong in breach, but besides,bi think generally it's ok. Let them push out some more reworkscand everything should be fine.

Tareyus
10-29-2018, 04:13 AM
Yes, this is exactly the problem on the console. We already have a shat ton of light spam here that we can't react to. We don't want another hero that we can't react to in the game. The devs keep thinking that console and pc is the same.

Herbstlicht
10-29-2018, 07:17 AM
In a state where almost every hero can throw 500 Ms lights, it becomes a new Standart and balance in it's own right. It even becomes more like traditional fighters where you needa read animations and guess right due to the speed of the game. So yes, defence is harder on console, but what? We got a faster paced game but everyone is in the same boat. Besides, we have more viable than not viable heroes for breach and even duel today compared to some seasons ago.
Oh and if you wonder why I defend the game: it simply is fun those days.

Soldier_of_Dawn
10-29-2018, 09:48 AM
Speaking on a more general note, don't nerf any of the Wu Lin but balance the rest of the characters quicker. Reworks and character balancing should be done monthly instead of two every three months since we have a 22 hero roster.

Siegfried-Z
10-29-2018, 10:27 AM
Shaolin is fine.

I play on PS4 and i don't get why Shaolin makes people angry like that.

You guys complain about speed, 400ms hits etc... then you should complain about Nuxia with her 400ms lights chain + mix up with traps in.

Or you should complain about Tiandi second lights at 400ms despite of beiing a Vanguard.

Or Maybe JJ having lights at 500ms with 20dmg and 400ms softfeint despite of beiing a Heavy .. Don't u think ?

Demannu.Resu
10-29-2018, 02:41 PM
I don't know, I think the main issue here is the characters that haven't been reworked - they feel overly under-powered compered to more new and reworked characters. I think it's other characters that need buffs more, not new ones nerfs.

For example, Nobushi in many ways is just inferior to all the reworked or new characters - her light attacks are easily parried, her kick is easily dodged, her faint and "openers" are easy to read, her hidden stance is slow and drains stamina... and so on. In comparison, Jiang Jun, just does most of this better - he is in many ways more versatile and can dodge much better, with more hp, dodge which REGENS stamina instead of drain... minus the bleed on enemy.

Playing nobushi now is like playing with handicap... it doesn't mean you can't win, its just harder. Same goes for most characters that haven't been reworked.


Shaolin is awkward in overall - he is sort of lame(!) assassin, who focuses on counters and punishing enemy for reckless attacks, while still having assassin hp. He highly relies on enemies to start attack preemptively, so he could TRY(!) to slip his top light or other attack to get his Qi stance ready, to TRY(!) for counter-attack or provoke mistake out of enemy. Without access to that Qi stance, he is crippled version of Orichi or any other assassin.

TL;DR
Anyway, I think its that old characters need more buffs and improvements to their kits instead...

iadvisoryi
10-29-2018, 05:22 PM
Hahahaha, yeah right buddy. Shugoki is on the same spot as shaolin, and Raider is the best duelist, shaolin dont have chances with them !!1!1 When u are devoted to a game, and u play it everyday it is not fun to lose over and over with new chars, not cause u dont know the moves, but for the fact that u know, and u cant do nothing to stop it.They are not balanced when we compare them to the OG cast without rework. SURE, u can win against them, but it doesn't mean that they are balanced xD (i think your brain need this explanation man.). It is about the speed of attacks, feats (christ, dont tell me that teleporting kick is ok...) and whole POSSIBLE mix ups and many more. My opinion is, that they are not even close to be balanced if we compare them to the OG cast (including fatboi and daddy and raider and more), but with whom u think we should compare them ? Only between their own faction or what? THIS is why u dont add to the rotten core. First u need to fix it UBI. And u iadvisoryi, i bet u are not playing low tier, but u are definitely low brain with your "git gud", tfu.

They're multiple characters for a reason all unique in their own way, in FG, there will always be a meta, it will NEVER be "balanced" so to speak. Because people have flaws, and their characters might not be as strong as others, but since it's a fg, your SKILL can outweigh someone else's, just as their character can out match yours. It's a FIGHTING GAME. You do need to get good since it's hard for you to understand that. And I'm "low brain" lmao English?

MrBeave
10-29-2018, 09:22 PM
After training mode with Shaolin that notion is laughable.

Everything hinges on his Qi stance, and he can’t enter it neutral. Best he can do to enter Qi quickly is whiff a light.

His heavies are slow and predictable. If he throws one from neutral, 9 out of 10 times he’s baiting you.

If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block.

His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick.

His Qi heavies can both be parried. Qi side has no iframes, or at least very few.

Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kensei’s and has nowhere near as many iframes.

His triple-poke is side-only.

If you’re losing to a Shao, you’re simply getting outplayed, man.

From what I find the only problematic Wulin is JJ.

THANK YOU! Plus his stamina is garbage (which is odd for a warrior monk training all day on top of a mountain and with no heavy armor to weigh him down).

I personally really like the Shaolin and I am trying work him into my 'mains' roster but it's not incredibly easy to use the guy.

I don't understand the hate on JJ either, I don't have a hard time blocking anything he throws out. In fact, I don't have a problem taking down ANY of the Wu Lin. It's still the usual-suspect light spammers (and Shinobi for some reason) that I have trouble with.

Knight_Raime
10-29-2018, 09:41 PM
After training mode with Shaolin that notion is laughable.

Everything hinges on his Qi stance, and he canít enter it neutral. Best he can do to enter Qi quickly is whiff a light.

His heavies are slow and predictable. If he throws one from neutral, 9 out of 10 times heís baiting you.

If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block.

His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick.

His Qi heavies can both be parried. Qi side has no iframes, or at least very few.

Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kenseiís and has nowhere near as many iframes.

His triple-poke is side-only.

If youíre losing to a Shao, youíre simply getting outplayed, man.

From what I find the only problematic Wulin is JJ.

While I agree with you that Shaolin is mostly fine some of this post is misleading. So i'm going to quote some parts and add my response to them.

"Everything hinges on his Qi stance, and he canít enter it neutral. Best he can do to enter Qi quickly is whiff a light."
This is true. However Shaolin like valk has really good reach with lights from neutral. Meaning he's constantly threatening with a 400ms top or 24 damage sides. Top backwards light into qi stance is incredibly safe. So while he can only enter qi with his attacks from neutral (aside from a bug) that's not really a downside.


"If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block."
Not actually. Aramusha's gotten easier to defend against since he now has a forced 200ms delay between every combo attack. Where as shaolin can still delay his attacks to make his 400ms in combo hits impossible to react to.

"His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick."
Kick is unreactable. it's a 500ms bash that's practically a neutral attack. If you're dodging it or poking him out of it you either got lucky or read your opponent right. Qi only takes 200ms to get into. And he can feint out of it and block 300ms after feinting. and at 500ms after the feint he can dodge and parry. So punishing entering qi stance is basically next to impossible.

"His Qi heavies can both be parried. Qi side has no iframes, or at least very few."
Qi side heavies have no I frames. And while you can parry his heavies from qi he can feint back into qi from his top heavy if he entered qi with his light. And side heavies have far reach, the undodgable property, and can also be feinted. So his two strongest options out of qi (top heavy and side heavies) can't be reacted to punish wise. You have to read how he's going to use his qi.

"Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kenseiís and has nowhere near as many iframes."
This is true. But that's not the issue. it's that he has a dodge attack. Which are basically mandatory for dealing with bash mix ups. While most heros have some dodge based attack not everyone does. Meaning if you don't have one you're missing a pretty fundimental aspect of how fights play out these days. Which is why his side heavies are brought up at all.

"His triple-poke is side-only."
True. But it's 24 damage. Which is insane damage for something that can be used reliably to interrupt mix ups and off of heavy parries. Shaolin isn't the only one here with strong heavy parry/interrupt damage. But it's still a strength he has. So it's worth noting. He can also get this off of his running kick and sweep just fyi.

"After training mode with Shaolin that notion is laughable."
Training mode is not an accurate representation of actual fights for several reasons. Most notable is bots always buffer attacks. Meaning they're attacks are always slower.

Again. Not saying Shaolin is busted. I think he's nearly perfect balance wise. But he's easily high A tier. The only things that actively keep him from S tier is his max punishes are not strong. And he doesn't have an easily abusable move like most S tier heros do. Shaolin also has unfavorable match ups. Where as someone like berzerker is holding the best spot for duelist for the simple fact that how she is currently means none of her match ups are unfavorable or bad.

Demannu.Resu
10-29-2018, 11:09 PM
.....


Actually, his dodge is easy to guard break, because of the wind up, so if you lure him into it, you got guaranteed guard break, unlike other assassins like orichi or that vanguard kensei (tho, those are essentially very easy to parry anyway with little practice - better players will try to lure those out).

That 24 damage IF he does combo(which can be risky to attempt randomly, and mind that its not 400ms, cuz its side) is laughable once you realize that his side heavy does 25 damage...not sure about top, maybe its 30. Meaning, you don't have actual guaranteed heavy damage punisher, like with other characters.

You can easily predict when he enters Qi stance, and just pre-emptively strike fast light, or start waiting for the kick before its even there. Basically, with some characters, all you just need is to spam light fast attacks and his Qi stance is wrecked.. that's why he got that range, so he could try to punish you for that spam. Yet, for example, lawbringer can just wreck shaolin with just little effort to block and just shove you into oblivion while taking those few hits that slip past.

jmac70
10-29-2018, 11:51 PM
Go and play on console and say shaolin is not op side heavys QI stance a almost guarantee kick. His lights are practically instant what is a joke, Heís got infinite combo light up so anything can come at you and itís impossible to read him. Donít even get me started with his feats which he can teleport to the enemies or his 4th to help his teammate out thatís a F***ING joke!

Vendelkin
10-30-2018, 12:49 AM
You know I get that Ubi cops out, but asking about specifics isn't really a cop out. Honestly we need specifics to justify things. Like with almost all characters they take getting used to and in the hands of the right player they can be very strong. TBH I was surprised how balanced the new characters are.

Nuxia if anything is a little weak, but even then in the hands of any player that knew how to play berserker right with feints the Nuxia is a monster in the exact same fashion.

Jiang Jun has excellent moves and his stamina gain is a little nuts, BUT after playing as him to rep one and against him a lot (as musha or Shinobi) he absolutely has weak points. incredibly slow start up frames on the super armor with his opener heavies. every attack is VERY easy to parry because of the sweep animations, and thus like most he relies on hard feints when a good player is playing him to mess people up. He feels very balanced to me.

Shaolin.. Hmmm now heres the weirdest. at first when you dont know what hes capable of hes scary. but Ima be honest. of the new characters the ones Im least afraid of fighting are the shaolin and nuxia. Once you learn how his stance works you can kinda predict what his options are outta qi stance. and although he as a wide variety honestly it can be solved in most cases with a shove canceled into a grab or by simply rolling away and letting him sit there in Qi stance immobile. On paper yeah hes very versatile, but it is tricky to employ any of the moves appropriately especially the Qi superior block light... which is awesome but in the moment hard to time and direct the correct way. Shaolin might need a very mild nerf if anything, but if so very mild, and I would much prefer him be untouched and let the devs get to finally reworking lawbringer (and maybe someday making my dreams come true and giving the aramusha a less predicatable opener)
As a fighter I don't mind the Shaolin HOWEVER I do think his massive teleport accross the battlefield feat is a little BS and doesn't belong in the game.

Tiandi... You know what. they're dodge feint game is really cool... but its time consuming and and easy to see or roll away from leaving them stamina bereft. The best tiandi players I've fought have made less use of the dodge are more use of the double light attack from top to right that comes out very quick to take me down. As compared to the other vanguards... well they are definately weaker than a good warden and even a noob kensei (because of how easy it is to do his side heavy dodge + feint overhead or whatever) and raider tho not phenomal is still very strong in 4 v4.

the only two i could fathom needing a nerf are jiang jun and shaolin sure... but even then I really dont think they need it.

SixAxe505
10-30-2018, 01:17 AM
I am not going to repost the things said here, but his range, damage, mix-up potential and mobility make him super good. The only reason I don't use him is the market is oversaturated right now. I am a shinobi main, so I am sure it's a easy transition with a lot more going for it, but I just can't. I hate mirror matches you see, so that's why I chose Nuxia instead. I am going to laugh my butt off when all of these people complaining immediately get Shaolin and JJ in a couple days. It's going to be like day 1 all over again.

Blitzwarrior771
10-30-2018, 01:46 AM
This is all because of stupid *** defense . They screw up defense big time They speed up light attacks . For me game is dead .

HighGround_S3G
10-30-2018, 02:26 AM
Shaolin doesn't need nerfed, it need buffed. OP has obviously not played Shaolin, I have been since it released and it has a super long recovery time, once it has been attacked it cannot block, it can just keep getting attack spammed. It can't even dodge after being attacked.

Shaolin's attacks, even their light attacks are very easy to parry or even deflect.

It's recovery time needs to be reduces so it can defend itself, and it's attacks need to be sped up so he's not so easily parried

Knight_Raime
10-30-2018, 06:56 AM
Actually, his dodge is easy to guard break, because of the wind up, so if you lure him into it, you got guaranteed guard break, unlike other assassins like orichi or that vanguard kensei (tho, those are essentially very easy to parry anyway with little practice - better players will try to lure those out).

That 24 damage IF he does combo(which can be risky to attempt randomly, and mind that its not 400ms, cuz its side) is laughable once you realize that his side heavy does 25 damage...not sure about top, maybe its 30. Meaning, you don't have actual guaranteed heavy damage punisher, like with other characters.

You can easily predict when he enters Qi stance, and just pre-emptively strike fast light, or start waiting for the kick before its even there. Basically, with some characters, all you just need is to spam light fast attacks and his Qi stance is wrecked.. that's why he got that range, so he could try to punish you for that spam. Yet, for example, lawbringer can just wreck shaolin with just little effort to block and just shove you into oblivion while taking those few hits that slip past.

His dodge attack or his side heavy from qi? Because i've yet to be guard broken out of the ai side heavy. People frequently bounce off of it.
Yes shaolin's light parry punish is not strong. Same with centurion. Doesn't change how strong the ability to get 20 something damage off of a heavy parry is.

You're not playing smart shaolin if you're easily predicting them. and as i've already outlined before. You can't smack him out of going into it. It's 200ms into and 300ms out of feint he can block. More than half the people who play this game can't even react block lights. I seriously doubt you're consistently hitting someone while they go into qi stance. And if you are they're an awful Shaolin.

His kick is a 500ms bash from neutral. You can't wait to dodge it on reaction. Shaolin vs LB is 100% in shaolin's favor. He can threaten with both kick and his top unblockable which he can feint back into qi stance. Block shove does jack all to shaolin because he has a deflect. Meaning he gets 20 damage for deflecting LB's light and automatically goes into qi.

How about you actually fight good players and then get back to me. Because if LB is capable of killing you through shove block you're bottom tier.

Herbstlicht
10-30-2018, 10:55 AM
Hmm, maybe it was about guard break vulnerability after the Dodge attack. And I guess there is a small window after Shaolin Dodge attack where you can get guard broken. At least you have to stop attacking, you can't chain it into anything.

Anyway, getting shove attacked to death does still happen. Play on console and have a few laggers in the game.

Not saying the issue lies with the balance in this case, but though Shaolin is pretty strong, it's actually hard for him to spam. And as some people pointed out, he is somewhat predictable. If you enter qi or go into infinite combo, both can be punished with a light. And this light would need to be parried by you if you expect it and just stop after 1 hit. What would net you 25 damage and likely another light. But there are few bold players out there that use offense as defence.

So to sum it up it would be nice if a few people got off their high horse because some concerns, even if the players voicing them might be not as skilled as others, often still hold true to some extent.

Siegfried-Z
10-30-2018, 11:56 AM
"If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block."
Not actually. Aramusha's gotten easier to defend against since he now has a forced 200ms delay between every combo attack. Where as shaolin can still delay his attacks to make his 400ms in combo hits impossible to react to.

"His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick."
Kick is unreactable. it's a 500ms bash that's practically a neutral attack. If you're dodging it or poking him out of it you either got lucky or read your opponent right. Qi only takes 200ms to get into. And he can feint out of it and block 300ms after feinting. and at 500ms after the feint he can dodge and parry. So punishing entering qi stance is basically next to impossible.


"Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kenseiís and has nowhere near as many iframes."
This is true. But that's not the issue. it's that he has a dodge attack. Which are basically mandatory for dealing with bash mix ups. While most heros have some dodge based attack not everyone does. Meaning if you don't have one you're missing a pretty fundimental aspect of how fights play out these days. Which is why his side heavies are brought up at all.


Again. Not saying Shaolin is busted. I think he's nearly perfect balance wise. But he's easily high A tier. The only things that actively keep him from S tier is his max punishes are not strong. And he doesn't have an easily abusable move like most S tier heros do. Shaolin also has unfavorable match ups. Where as someone like berzerker is holding the best spot for duelist for the simple fact that how she is currently means none of her match ups are unfavorable or bad.

Kind of surprised to see you saying Shaolin 400ms hits (only from the top) and 500ms bash are Unreactable after our discussion about Roch lights ;)

About the Dodge, his only strengh is to be considered as a heavy.. His dodge is slow, is a back dodge on the right wihch is a very situational to use and Shaolin dodge attacks can't chain.
As a Hybrid/Assassin (only Hybrid having reflex guard), having a dodge attacks is just normal. The opposite would be surprising.

Anyway, i agree he is well balanced, no nerf, no buff, he is fine.

Siegfried-Z
10-30-2018, 11:57 AM
Go and play on console and say shaolin is not op side heavys QI stance a almost guarantee kick. His lights are practically instant what is a joke, Heís got infinite combo light up so anything can come at you and itís impossible to read him. Donít even get me started with his feats which he can teleport to the enemies or his 4th to help his teammate out thatís a F***ING joke!

I play on console and i say Shaolin is not OP at all.. So ?

Lord_Cherubi
10-30-2018, 01:37 PM
^ Whats problematic with JJ?.

To me the only problem with JJ is his busted indicators flashing all over the place hours before his hits even land. In a fighting game this intence you can't really think all that much, you have to react and it's EXTREMELY difficult when his attacks aren't in sync with the indicators.

Demannu.Resu
10-30-2018, 04:37 PM
His dodge attack or his side heavy from qi? Because i've yet to be guard broken out of the ai side heavy. People frequently bounce off of it.
Yes shaolin's light parry punish is not strong. Same with centurion. Doesn't change how strong the ability to get 20 something damage off of a heavy parry is.

You're not playing smart shaolin if you're easily predicting them. and as i've already outlined before. You can't smack him out of going into it. It's 200ms into and 300ms out of feint he can block. More than half the people who play this game can't even react block lights. I seriously doubt you're consistently hitting someone while they go into qi stance. And if you are they're an awful Shaolin.

His kick is a 500ms bash from neutral. You can't wait to dodge it on reaction. Shaolin vs LB is 100% in shaolin's favor. He can threaten with both kick and his top unblockable which he can feint back into qi stance. Block shove does jack all to shaolin because he has a deflect. Meaning he gets 20 damage for deflecting LB's light and automatically goes into qi.

How about you actually fight good players and then get back to me. Because if LB is capable of killing you through shove block you're bottom tier.


Dodge Side heavy - it can be easily guard broken(not sure if applies to both sides, because his dodge to one side is a bit different). LB just needs to shove and guard break if shaolin tries to dodge side attack after being shoved.

Probably that half of people who play this game and can't even block light, don't even try enough, cuz they busy attacking most of the time... ya kno, "best defense is offense", is kinda popular idea for some and so they just don't even try most of time.. and still win. Anyway, that's beside the point - game SHOULDN'T be balanced around only newb's anyway or there will be close to no satisfaction for trying to improve personal skill. There are annoying characters with annoying mechanics all over the place in the game and I'm not convinced that shaolin on average is annoying beyond anything else that game has to offer from characters. I EVEN THINK THAT ONCE PEOPLE GET USED TO HIS KIT, HE WILL BE UNDERWHELMING COMPARING TO OTHER CHARACTERS, but we shall see.


I'm not here to discuss my skill level and your remarks on that are unnecessarily for topic at hand. Lemme put it this way - I DO KNOW that even at my skill even if I do faints in various forms, mix up combos in various forms, enemies still VERY OFTEN(!) just parry/deflect those shaolin light attacks(yes, even that 400ms top) and dodge those kicks... in other words, it isn't big deal as you make it look like, at least, not at my skill level, tho, I can't really tell what kind of skill level it is.


P.S. I'm talking about PC version.

Herbstlicht
10-30-2018, 04:54 PM
Well, I can confirm parrys and deflects on 400 ms attacks even on console. However, I am convinced this is mostly by accident.
Those days, I am playing with a lot of friends who are rather new to the game. That means I tace of against a lot of players that are not all that experienced, and when the connection quality to everyone is very good, those games feel very, very easy to me because you can read a lot of stuff due to experience. However, once we get bad connection combined with spammy gameplay, the monk and pretty much every class with shorter combos and no fixed guard does suffer. The window where you can deal your damage compared to a berserker for example is rather short. Add to this a lot of timings that can not be varied, whereas other classes can, it makes defending against shaolin easier then this berserker. So when in a bad connection game, i really prefer fighting a shaolin whose timings are fixed and whom I can punish because there is no need to read into delays, they don't really exist. This fixed timings overall might be a small bane to the whole Wu Lin faction. But it is still rather early for this. Starting from today everyone can play the new ones. Give it a months time and we will have way more knowledge about balancing issues.

Ben.D.Nee
10-30-2018, 04:56 PM
Why would anyone buy Marching Fire if new characters weren't op?

Devils-_-legacy
10-30-2018, 05:02 PM
Why would anyone buy Marching Fire if new characters weren't op?
For me
Early access and arcade?

Knight_Raime
10-30-2018, 08:26 PM
Dodge Side heavy - it can be easily guard broken(not sure if applies to both sides, because his dodge to one side is a bit different). LB just needs to shove and guard break if shaolin tries to dodge side attack after being shoved.

Probably that half of people who play this game and can't even block light, don't even try enough, cuz they busy attacking most of the time... ya kno, "best defense is offense", is kinda popular idea for some and so they just don't even try most of time.. and still win. Anyway, that's beside the point - game SHOULDN'T be balanced around only newb's anyway or there will be close to no satisfaction for trying to improve personal skill. There are annoying characters with annoying mechanics all over the place in the game and I'm not convinced that shaolin on average is annoying beyond anything else that game has to offer from characters. I EVEN THINK THAT ONCE PEOPLE GET USED TO HIS KIT, HE WILL BE UNDERWHELMING COMPARING TO OTHER CHARACTERS, but we shall see.


I'm not here to discuss my skill level and your remarks on that are unnecessarily for topic at hand. Lemme put it this way - I DO KNOW that even at my skill even if I do faints in various forms, mix up combos in various forms, enemies still VERY OFTEN(!) just parry/deflect those shaolin light attacks(yes, even that 400ms top) and dodge those kicks... in other words, it isn't big deal as you make it look like, at least, not at my skill level, tho, I can't really tell what kind of skill level it is.


P.S. I'm talking about PC version.


Ah. Well you'd only use that attack to deal with raw bashes.
Lb has to do everything after shove on read. Where as a person with reflex guard can react to it all.
So shove into GB won't work unless you read that he does an empty dodge.

Either you're fighting people who are great at reading you or you yourself are playing too predictably.


Hmm, maybe it was about guard break vulnerability after the Dodge attack. And I guess there is a small window after Shaolin Dodge attack where you can get guard broken. At least you have to stop attacking, you can't chain it into anything.

Anyway, getting shove attacked to death does still happen. Play on console and have a few laggers in the game.

Not saying the issue lies with the balance in this case, but though Shaolin is pretty strong, it's actually hard for him to spam. And as some people pointed out, he is somewhat predictable. If you enter qi or go into infinite combo, both can be punished with a light. And this light would need to be parried by you if you expect it and just stop after 1 hit. What would net you 25 damage and likely another light. But there are few bold players out there that use offense as defence.

So to sum it up it would be nice if a few people got off their high horse because some concerns, even if the players voicing them might be not as skilled as others, often still hold true to some extent.



You can't reliably light Shaolin out of qi stance. He enters it in 200ms and can launch anything in it immediately after that. If you attempt to light him on reaction to seeing him go into qi he'll just crushing counter your light attempt. You punish shaolin's qi stance moves by reading how he will use them. You cannot reliably punish him for going into it.


Kind of surprised to see you saying Shaolin 400ms hits (only from the top) and 500ms bash are Unreactable after our discussion about Roch lights ;)

About the Dodge, his only strengh is to be considered as a heavy.. His dodge is slow, is a back dodge on the right wihch is a very situational to use and Shaolin dodge attacks can't chain.
As a Hybrid/Assassin (only Hybrid having reflex guard), having a dodge attacks is just normal. The opposite would be surprising.

Anyway, i agree he is well balanced, no nerf, no buff, he is fine.

400ms light from the top is a neutral attack (his in combo lights are also 400ms from any direction). Pk's zone is also a 400ms neutral attack. People don't react to her zone. they rest their guard there. Same with shaolin. If someone manages to parry/block it consistently it's a read. bashes from neutral are always their intended speed and his kick is considered to be from neutral. Meaning it's actually slightly faster than 500ms. Because Shaolin can enter qi in 200ms and let an attack fly immediately you cannot react to the kick.
Perhaps I should clarify since people seem to not understand.

If Shaolin uses his kick immediately after entering qi stance every time he enters qi stance and you dodge it you've read what he's doing. You're not reacting to the kick.
Now if Shaolin uses his kick 3 times in an entire fight and each time he uses the kick he's done it after a different mix up and you manage to dodge that kick once you didn't react to the kick nor did you read him. You got lucky.

To put it another way mob mentality is a thing. So you will see a lot of players use a specific hero the same way. So even if you fight someone you've not fought before but they use that bog standard way to play him you're still just reading him if you dodge his kick. As it's an established pattern you're used to.

Reacting to something means it can be thrown at any time in any combo or feint mix up and you can reliably block/dodge/whatever. 500ms lights are reactable. This is because you can see any decent player at the game consistently block them regardless of how they're being used. Where as 400ms lights are not reactable. because not even the best players in the game can consistently block/punish them.

Demannu.Resu
10-31-2018, 12:47 AM
Ah. Well you'd only use that attack to deal with raw bashes.
Lb has to do everything after shove on read. Where as a person with reflex guard can react to it all.
So shove into GB won't work unless you read that he does an empty dodge.

Either you're fighting people who are great at reading you or you yourself are playing too predictably.

Dude, you make no sense bringing up my skill, it isn't the topic - I was just merely pointing out it is POSSIBLE to guard break his side dodge attack, and you cant do that to other side dodge attackers, cuz you will just bounce off them. I'm well aware it is a mistake to use that move when i shouldn't - why are you even saying such silly things? I'm just pointing out his weaknesses that aren't there for other characters. Stop strawman fallacy pls.

Considering this is second time, I guess I will not even attempt to correct your reasoning flaws, and I'll just say, nah, you are wrong. It's easy to counter shaolin. IF you are having problems with his Qi stance and Kicks, it just your reaction/skill problem, git gut(uuu, i did strawman falacy too, hf).

Buggy.Blaster
10-31-2018, 08:40 AM
he just has too much stuff.. not sure where to begin. he's just incredibly better than the old crew. same with the JJ guy. he's pretty broken. and i know it won't get fixed so whatever. playing other games now. rip.

Siegfried-Z
10-31-2018, 10:10 AM
400ms light from the top is a neutral attack (his in combo lights are also 400ms from any direction). Pk's zone is also a 400ms neutral attack. People don't react to her zone. they rest their guard there. Same with shaolin. If someone manages to parry/block it consistently it's a read. bashes from neutral are always their intended speed and his kick is considered to be from neutral. Meaning it's actually slightly faster than 500ms. Because Shaolin can enter qi in 200ms and let an attack fly immediately you cannot react to the kick.
Perhaps I should clarify since people seem to not understand.

If Shaolin uses his kick immediately after entering qi stance every time he enters qi stance and you dodge it you've read what he's doing. You're not reacting to the kick.
Now if Shaolin uses his kick 3 times in an entire fight and each time he uses the kick he's done it after a different mix up and you manage to dodge that kick once you didn't react to the kick nor did you read him. You got lucky.

To put it another way mob mentality is a thing. So you will see a lot of players use a specific hero the same way. So even if you fight someone you've not fought before but they use that bog standard way to play him you're still just reading him if you dodge his kick. As it's an established pattern you're used to.

Reacting to something means it can be thrown at any time in any combo or feint mix up and you can reliably block/dodge/whatever. 500ms lights are reactable. This is because you can see any decent player at the game consistently block them regardless of how they're being used. Where as 400ms lights are not reactable. because not even the best players in the game can consistently block/punish them.

Agree on this.

I would just say sometimes you can react to the Kick. I did it many times already.. just as conq SB from neutral, not often but it happen. But yes most of times it is because of opponents patterns. That's for the same reason you can sometimes parry 400ms zerk light feint etc.

We just doesn't understand each others last time about roch discussion. I agree with what you're saying here about 400ms lights, it's hard to react to, even more on console.