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View Full Version : So... How do I counter the fat nobushi?



CSaunders95
10-26-2018, 10:37 PM
Like every character has a counter right? What I don't understand is he has hidden stance effectively which should have a downside too it, like nobushis, however he just gains stamina AS WELL as having a dodge property! WHERES THE DOWNSIDE!? ALL HIS ATTACKS ARE ZONES!

WHERES THE NEGATIVE SIDE TO THAT!?


How do you punish him!? He has a hidden stance he can use while OUT OF STAMINA, WHILE SPEEDS UP STAMINA GAIN!? How is this balanced? Like nobushi is no longer a viable character compared to him.


The entire trade off of hidden stance with nobushi is the massive stamina drain from it while acquiring the ability to dodge without moving, thats the only thing that stopped it being overpowering and spamable, yet now this fat nobushi has it WITHOUT the negatives AND MORE POSITIVES!

PonE-Sharp
10-26-2018, 10:53 PM
He definitely should not be able to use Sifu's when OOS. This would force JJs to actually MANAGE their stamina instead of just having an INFINITE WELL off it.

HerrNein
10-26-2018, 11:18 PM
You counter him like you counter any other hero in the game. Good god people, it is not rocket science.

Big JJ is not an unstoppable god, you just are refusing to adapt accordingly and calling it overpowered because you are projecting what you expect onto what is. There are already videos out offering ways to start countering them more reliably. Aside from that, it's a fight, just cause someone changed the style doesn't mean you can whine about it being something new, which is 90% of those whining.

SangLong524
10-26-2018, 11:34 PM
JJ natural stamina regen is incredibly horrible. The stance his only salvation when OOS. So keep up the pressure.
If you get this far and know his counters, so parry. When parry, its likely an unblockable. How many direction can it come? ONE. Zone is the other.
The choke? Ehh, i suppose “choke me ,daddy” is the only response here.
What you should be afraid, is the supportive sifu stance in a gank.

Nestramutat
10-27-2018, 12:30 AM
The fat fu.ck is annoying as hell and like every ******ed character released in MF, he has 400ms light attacks that he can spam.

Don't listen to all the white knights, the expansion brought even more cancer the an otherwise cancerous game.

True, the fat sh.it can be countered, but try doing it in a gank situation, its next to impossible. Duels, that's another story.

Rhyza.
10-27-2018, 02:07 AM
Because he has broken elements like the other three? It's in his design, blame the devs. Players that think these characters, including JJ, are some epitome of balance, are the ones that use said broken elements themselves to dominate. You think they wanna give that edge up?

The only thing you can do to counter him is keep the pressure up, though it's difficult seeing how fast he regens. Wear him out when possible, don't let him use use his broken stance. Or find a buddy to gank him.

Wookiescantfly
10-27-2018, 02:29 AM
Like every character has a counter right? What I don't understand is he has hidden stance effectively which should have a downside too it, like nobushis, however he just gains stamina AS WELL as having a dodge property! WHERES THE DOWNSIDE!? ALL HIS ATTACKS ARE ZONES!

WHERES THE NEGATIVE SIDE TO THAT!?


How do you punish him!? He has a hidden stance he can use while OUT OF STAMINA, WHILE SPEEDS UP STAMINA GAIN!? How is this balanced? Like nobushi is no longer a viable character compared to him.


The entire trade off of hidden stance with nobushi is the massive stamina drain from it while acquiring the ability to dodge without moving, thats the only thing that stopped it being overpowering and spamable, yet now this fat nobushi has it WITHOUT the negatives AND MORE POSITIVES!

The same way you counter Shugoki? He's slow as all hell and eats through his stamina like a fat kid with a box of Twinkies, which makes any time he goes into Sifu pretty predictable tbh. .

Heavy openers are uninterruptible, so just parry. The dodge forward top heavy is uninterruptible, but can be soft feinted into a kick that, iirc, guarantees the light follow up (correct me if I'm wrong guys), but if he goes for the heavy unblockable it can be parried. Side dodge heavies have uninterruptible when he goes to do the heavy attack, but can be soft feinted into a light. The timing is weird and I don't have it nailed down yet, but you can interrupt the side doge heavies.

Iirc his only 400 ms are light chain finishers; i don't remember the numbers on his light openers, but I wanna say it should be 500ms.

The only thing JJ can do from Sifu Pose is Zone attack, which is always from JJ's left guard stance. This counts as a chain opener, so if he wiffs it or hits with it he may go for a heavy unblockable chain finisher. Getting the dodge property on Sifu start up is pretty tricky for me, since it seems like this doesn't work for most light attacks and obvioiusly anything with undodgable property.

With the changes to the gear system and how much a major part of his kit the zone is, you're looking at 2-3 attempted attacks before JJ goes into Sifu on average. Since I'm fairly certain he can't counter gb from sifu, go for GB or bait the zone for a free parry.

Also Nobushi does ******ed damage to anyone who has bleed active on them, and since damn near exactly half of the roster has access to bleed, that's a pretty safe damage option. Sure she's pretty hard to be good with with how slow some of her attacks are, but a good nobushi will give you a good run for your money if she doesn't outright mudstomp you.

Tyrjo
10-27-2018, 08:06 AM
His lights are 500ms across the board, chain or basic, but the speed is not actually what's really really good about them. It's the damage they do. 18 basic and 20 chained. :eek:

His soft feinted heavy dodge attack into light is 400ms.

Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 09:13 AM
JJ's sifu stance is quite vulnerable to GB attempts. He can't tech them and the GB tracks well. The only defense he has on that is letting out his zone from that stance. Which can be baited and parried. Sifu stance is also quite vulnerable to fast chain moves. (like 500-600ms attacks) as there is a mandatory time he has to be in sifu stance and a recovery period after exiting it. So baiting him into siful and then chain light (if he dodged with sifu) or GB if not deals with that.

His forward dash heavy soft feint into shin kick is countered on reaction with a late dodge. The timing is so good that you avoid the raw heavy, the soft feint, the chained light after the soft feint, and feint into GB. Side dash heavy soft feint or not is easily stuffed with a wide sweeping hit. Also in general fighting in closed off areas is generally a good idea. As nearly all of his moves are a sweep of some kind. meaningh he'll bounce off walls easily.

CSaunders95
10-27-2018, 06:31 PM
So a lot of his attacks are uninteruptable and are insanely fast, the damage is high and a lot appear to be totally undodgable.

Compare that to nobushi, which by the way I'm rep 50 with and played her exclusively from closed beta all the way up to season 5.
Was platinum ranked in duels with her in all the last seasons.
Yet, she generally does not have a particularly fast time to kill. At high level play, you basically have to rely on lights/heavys openers into hidden stance. Yet all her attacks are so slow you have to rely on mind games and hidden stance to effectively land a hit. I could hidden stance orochis zones for crying out loud, but she was pulled in line because of the heavy stamina drain.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF JJ CAN ONLY DO ONE ATTACK OUT OF HIS HIDDEN STANCE, IT STILL HAS A DODGE PROPERTY AND CAN BE USED TO CONSISTENTLY COUNTER ATTACK AFTER DODGING AN ATTACK WITH IT.

YET HE GAINS STAMINA FROM IT!

I PROMISE YOU, ONCE I CAN GET MY HANDS ON HIM, EVERY ATTACK WILL BE HIDDEN STANCED ETERNALLY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT LOSE STAMINA WITH IT!


How can the nobushi compare!?

The extra bleed damage on nobushi is not all that. It's only like a 20% increase or something, it's so damn marginal you barely notice it. From experience, there's nothing substantial in the bleed argument.

Knight_Raime
10-27-2018, 07:26 PM
So a lot of his attacks are uninteruptable and are insanely fast, the damage is high and a lot appear to be totally undodgable.

Compare that to nobushi, which by the way I'm rep 50 with and played her exclusively from closed beta all the way up to season 5.
Was platinum ranked in duels with her in all the last seasons.
Yet, she generally does not have a particularly fast time to kill. At high level play, you basically have to rely on lights/heavys openers into hidden stance. Yet all her attacks are so slow you have to rely on mind games and hidden stance to effectively land a hit. I could hidden stance orochis zones for crying out loud, but she was pulled in line because of the heavy stamina drain.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF JJ CAN ONLY DO ONE ATTACK OUT OF HIS HIDDEN STANCE, IT STILL HAS A DODGE PROPERTY AND CAN BE USED TO CONSISTENTLY COUNTER ATTACK AFTER DODGING AN ATTACK WITH IT.

YET HE GAINS STAMINA FROM IT!

I PROMISE YOU, ONCE I CAN GET MY HANDS ON HIM, EVERY ATTACK WILL BE HIDDEN STANCED ETERNALLY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT LOSE STAMINA WITH IT!


How can the nobushi compare!?

The extra bleed damage on nobushi is not all that. It's only like a 20% increase or something, it's so damn marginal you barely notice it. From experience, there's nothing substantial in the bleed argument.

"IT DOESN'T MATTER IF JJ CAN ONLY DO ONE ATTACK OUT OF HIS HIDDEN STANCE, IT STILL HAS A DODGE PROPERTY AND CAN BE USED TO CONSISTENTLY COUNTER ATTACK AFTER DODGING AN ATTACK WITH IT.

YET HE GAINS STAMINA FROM IT!

I PROMISE YOU, ONCE I CAN GET MY HANDS ON HIM, EVERY ATTACK WILL BE HIDDEN STANCED ETERNALLY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT LOSE STAMINA WITH IT!"

Good luck with that. You're going to eat comboed lights or be gbed if you spam his sifu stance. If you don't throw your predictable zone out of it you're forced to sit in it and take a recovery after leaving it. both preventing you from parrying/blocking/cgbing to an opponent. And you can't reliably zone out of it because it's a 600ms attack that comes from the same side. It will get parried constantly.

Wookiescantfly
10-27-2018, 08:04 PM
The fact that he gains stamina from it is largely irrelevant once he goes into it for the simple fact that he can only do 2 things while he's in it; get out of it or zone attack. If he doesn't get out of it, guard break him; he literally can do nothing about it. Hell, if you're playing nobushi just poke him. Even if he attempts to leave it real quick to try to dodge, a light attack should crack him right in the nose for trying to be a smart alec; sure it has dodge property on start up, but you still have to time it the same as Hidden Stance or Full Guard. If you time it wrong, you get punished for it. You should know that better than anyone else considering your claim to have played nobushi since beta.

The high level play argument is also completely irrelevant, as that is the case with just about every character at high level play. If every fight was straightforward, feinting wouldn't need to be a mechanic. I agree that Nobushi has a lot of shortcomings, having picked her back up again recently for the Halloween event because her naginata looked gorgeous, but that's something the devs need to take a look at. Honeslty at some point the devs need to rework all of the old characters and bring them up to the standard of Kensei, Shaolin, and Tiandi; looking purely at their kits, they have a lot to their kits and are probably the most well balanced characters of the cast. So much so that they can seem OP in comparison to other, less better balanced characters. I personally feel all of Nobushi's attacks are far too telegraphed and the recovery time for her heavies is absolutely ridiculous. Additionally, going into Hidden stance should not cost stamina as much stamina as it does if the stance itself is going to drain stamina over time on top of that, but these are personal gripes that I feel the devs should address when they rebalance the character in regards to the rest of the cast.

SpaceJim12
10-29-2018, 09:44 AM
JJ natural stamina regen is incredibly horrible.

LB natural stamina regen is incredibly horrible too. Why he can't have super stance to regen it?
You all, guys who defend JJ, lose one simple thing HE IS A HEAVY. I won 50-60% of my fights with JJ using Centurion and Warden. But when I use LB there is nothing I can do. I think, same happend with Shugo, Warlord, maybe Highlander.
All other heavy charactes are nothing compared to JJ. And look at his feats. Massive health regen, mass stamina regen...none of heavies got this. The only reason why Chinese grandpa broken is his class. He has no weaknesses as heavy guys, but have some cool stuff from vanguards and assassins. How could it be even balanced?

SangLong524
10-29-2018, 10:13 AM
Personally, i dont think JJ is as hard as conqueror. Sure, his heavies are slow and easy to soft feint into some nasty combos, but those moves can be anticipated and baited. One parry is usually all you need to put JJ OoS. From then on, keep up the pressure. Sifu stance can be used when OoS as a dodge but while hes doing that, he doesnt regen. Back into the corner/wall and he going down.
His support feats are kind of situational. In my experience, aoe healing are crappier than it sounds. The firework makes a temporary arena of a sort. Just dont cross and turtle.

Roseguard_Cpt
10-29-2018, 02:40 PM
My only big gripe about grandpa is the fact that his hits land early. Someone did some frame checking, the hit effect and damage registers at 900ms, but the animation shows him just starting to exit his side heavy startup.
https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/9rgv8i/by_the_way_this_is_why_jiang_jun_is_so_hard_to/

SpaceJim12
10-29-2018, 03:55 PM
My only big gripe about grandpa is the fact that his hits land early. Someone did some frame checking, the hit effect and damage registers at 900ms, but the animation shows him just starting to exit his side heavy startup.
https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/9rgv8i/by_the_way_this_is_why_jiang_jun_is_so_hard_to/

It's whole Wu Lin issue. Cheap trick from Ubi to make this char hard to counter at least for month or two. This could guaranteed sells to next early access.

Devils-_-legacy
10-29-2018, 04:12 PM
"IT DOESN'T MATTER IF JJ CAN ONLY DO ONE ATTACK OUT OF HIS HIDDEN STANCE, IT STILL HAS A DODGE PROPERTY AND CAN BE USED TO CONSISTENTLY COUNTER ATTACK AFTER DODGING AN ATTACK WITH IT.

YET HE GAINS STAMINA FROM IT!

I PROMISE YOU, ONCE I CAN GET MY HANDS ON HIM, EVERY ATTACK WILL BE HIDDEN STANCED ETERNALLY BECAUSE HE DOES NOT LOSE STAMINA WITH IT!"

Good luck with that. You're going to eat comboed lights or be gbed if you spam his sifu stance. If you don't throw your predictable zone out of it you're forced to sit in it and take a recovery after leaving it. both preventing you from parrying/blocking/cgbing to an opponent. And you can't reliably zone out of it because it's a 600ms attack that comes from the same side. It will get parried constantly.

I'm not sure if it's just because im using shoalin and jj atm but stifu stance dodges a gb from my experiance with them I literally have to wait for him to attack so I can parry or if I'm jj i use it to dodge everything I haven't been hit/gb out of it yet?

SirRegisKeg
10-29-2018, 04:32 PM
People saying "oh just guard break JJ " or " oh just poke him " you guys forget the recovery for leaving sifu poise is instant. He can leave and then jump right back in to further keep dodging. That's why people are saying it's so strong. It's the perfect tool no JJ is going to sit in sifu. They will activate use its incredible spacing to get distance, jump out then repeat. You cannot catch him when he does this

SirRegisKeg
10-29-2018, 04:37 PM
Btw JJ is better than Nobushi in every possible way. With this current JJ there is no reason to play nobushi if you are a competitive player. JJ is the more viable option.