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View Full Version : Conqueror: From Harasser to Hard Hitter



ArchDukeInstinct
10-24-2018, 05:02 AM
https://i.imgur.com/h1Uv8M6.jpg

These are my genuine ideas to make Conqueror the heavy class he's supposed to be by making charged heavy more accessible and legitimately threatening while shield bash is made less effective.

Why change focus to Charged Heavy from Shield Bash

Of course charged heavy just works a lot better thematically with Conqueror being a heavy class and having "hard hitter" being one of his tags but are there any actual gameplay reasons to do so? I think charged heavy has a lot more synergy with the rest of the kit. You can cancel into full block stance, you can soft feint into shield uppercut, you can cancel into a dodge into shield bash, and you must use the superior block on heavy startup to counter. On the other hand, shield bash doesn't synergize with any of Conqueror's special moves or properties.

Nerfs

Zone attack now counts as a light parry
The zone attack counters a lot of things, the only option it doesn't handle is someone baiting the zone attack out and parrying it, however since it counts as a heavy parry they don't get much of a punish from it. So you can force many mixups to always result in doing minimal damage.

Superior block on dodge starts at 100ms
Originally superior block on dodge started at 0ms, an undocumented change in season 5 nerfed to 100ms, then later on there was yet another undocumented change putting it back to 0ms. I think it should be 100ms as otherwise Conqueror can get out of what would normally be guaranteed damage.

Forward Shield Bash miss recovery increased to 800ms (from 700ms)
You could already punish shield bash misses on reaction but you needed a very fast reaction. Now there will be a much more lenient time to get a guaranteed GB.

Forward dodge branches into shield bash at 200ms - 400ms
Grinding people down with a fast repetitive bash that can be initiated at 100ms is for harassers like Warlord, not hard hitters like Conqueror.

The variable timing is kept so a delayed bash can catch people who dodge too quickly on reaction to the forward dodge instead of the actual shield bash.

Buffs

Can counter guard break while in fully charged state
Being unable to counter guard break made sense prior to the season 5 rework because Conqueror had passive superior block. Now it only makes the fully charged state paradoxical, you need to be close so the opponent can't simply back dodge safety countering all options (heavy, full block, uppercut) but getting close puts you in range to be guard broken at any moment.

And while you would think it would be possible with the heavy's 100ms GB invulnerability to throw the heavy on reaction to a guard break, it simply doesn't pan out in practice. I haven't been able to do it successfully once in tests against a bot. I can only get a few frames into the startup but get GB'd anyway. If it can't happen offline, then it definitely isn't happening online.

This will only affect the fully charged state 900ms after charging starts, so using heavy charge as an option select will still be counterable by guard break.

Side Charged Heavy damage increased to 40 (from 33)
While it makes sense that the side charged heavy do less damage than the top charged heavy as they are 100ms quicker and have more range, the dropoff in damage is out of proportion. As a Conqueror I frankly could get 33 damage easier with less risk by turtling until I parry a light attack instead.

Shield uppercut from fully charged state guarantees a side heavy
It's hard to justify taking the risk of charging a heavy when the opponent can always do a very trivial dodge and at most only take a light. This is much like the nerf to zone attack above.

Fast Flow Options decreasing charged time to 300ms (from 900ms). Options include: After a forward dodge and after a regular heavy.
Charged heavy currently requires resetting to neutral and then starting the nearly second long charge up time which makes it impossible for it to add onto existing pressure.

One fast flow option would be doing a forward dodge which would allow Conqueror to get closer if the enemy tries to back out of the effective range. The overall time would still be 900ms, and this also allows shield bash to synergize with charged heavy as it can act as a cover for getting into the fully charged state. This is also nice because Conqueror mains are already well acquainted to doing forward dodges.

The other fast flow option is after a regular heavy (blocked, missed, or hit) which would allow a charged heavy to be integrated within a combo.

Lights do 15 damage again
This is reverting a season 5 change which was indirectly nerfing shield bash. Due to the direct nerfs above this should not be necessary anymore.

ooweda2blu
10-24-2018, 07:38 AM
I agree. As main conqueror I think that this could be a good change. I use so often Charged heavy, so I can say that it's difficult to manage on stamina and it isn't so powerful until you use it in a gank fighting or just to feint it on OOS opponents and hope that they make some mistake. I have stopped using shield bash on dodge since it became a big spam, so focusing on feints and charged heavy is so good (for me at least).

ooweda2blu
10-24-2018, 08:20 AM
I agree. As main conqueror I think that this could be a good change. I use so often Charged heavy, so I can say that it's difficult to manage on stamina and it isn't so powerful until you use it in a gank fighting or just to feint it on OOS opponents and hope that they make some mistake. I have stopped using shield bash on dodge since it became a big spam, so focusing on feints and charged heavy is so good (for me at least).

I forgot to say that the light parry on zone attack isn't fair, because it is very slow and easily to parry. So a heavy after a zone parried could be unfair and make this tool useless.

Goat_of_Vermund
10-24-2018, 11:57 AM
I agree with everything you have written (including the zone change, it's a very safe option, it shouldn't work as it does now). I began to think that the current conqueror is not even a heavy anymore, but a hybrid, while the lawbringer is a heavy.

Vordred
10-24-2018, 12:32 PM
i like this, would make him much more fun to play, endlessly bashing people is really boring.

ooweda2blu
10-24-2018, 12:36 PM
I agree with everything you have written (including the zone change, it's a very safe option, it shouldn't work as it does now). I began to think that the current conqueror is not even a heavy anymore, but a hybrid, while the lawbringer is a heavy.

I understand what you say about the zone, but it is an easy parry. I think that a light parry on it could be too aggressive: at least it hasn't an high damage and speed like a lot of other zones, so you can use it only as defensive tool (very useful in gank fights when you're outnumbered).

It has low speed at all, so if we set a light parry on it, it's like do an heavy parry and have the time to throw another one against him, and I think that's unfair.
Instead I would reduce its damage, making it an alternative option to clear front zones in dominion and as an useful full block stance in outnumbered fights. I think that because an unblockable attack could breach it, and more swings are really easy to parry. Plus you can start only 3-4 zone attacks and end them on first swing before going OOS, so I don't see it as a real problem. The shield bash on dodge and charged heavy were a problem, because unbalanced, but with these new ideas I think that they would be no more unbalanced. ;)

Archaelion
10-24-2018, 03:10 PM
imbalanced class. Lol #buffshugoki #makeshugokifatagain

EvoX.
10-24-2018, 04:50 PM
The opponent can just roll out of anything a Conq throws with those changes. Forward SB would be thrown in less due to fear of guaranteed GB, and is easier to dodge due to the additional time to initiate. Charged heavy into SB can be rolled out of so you avoid both versions of heavies. Conq doesn't have any GB soft feints and he can't even hard feint into neutral, meaning he can't take advantage of the recent 300ms GB vulnerability on rolls. All Block would still be extremely situational and luck based. Switching guard direction while with a charged heavy would still be a whooping 300ms, meaning you can just get light attacked out of charging a heavy, unless you maintain a distance at all times, which seems like Shinobi territory. How is he supposed to open up with offense?

Speedgamer2002
10-24-2018, 04:59 PM
Since he's a heavy i think it would make sense if the charged versions of his heavys had hyper armor, not while he's charging of course but it would at least cover the light problem.

ArchDukeInstinct
10-25-2018, 05:05 AM
I forgot to say that the light parry on zone attack isn't fair, because it is very slow and easily to parry. So a heavy after a zone parried could be unfair and make this tool useless.

It is an easy parry but you generally aren't just throwing it out while in neutral in 1v1 and there's other option selects you can mix between. In 4v4 it's mostly to stall and delay until team mates can arrive and exterior attackers cannot parry it.


The opponent can just roll out of anything a Conq throws with those changes. Forward SB would be thrown in less due to fear of guaranteed GB, and is easier to dodge due to the additional time to initiate. Charged heavy into SB can be rolled out of so you avoid both versions of heavies. Conq doesn't have any GB soft feints and he can't even hard feint into neutral, meaning he can't take advantage of the recent 300ms GB vulnerability on rolls.

Shield uppercut can catch an unlocked roll if you did it too early, it definitely won't catch a back dodge into roll though. While it is a big stamina investment to do a roll and going OOS against Conqueror is more threatening than compared to most other classes, there may need to be something more which makes shield uppercut capable of catching rolls. I'll have to think about this particular aspect more.


All Block would still be extremely situational and luck based. Switching guard direction while with a charged heavy would still be a whooping 300ms, meaning you can just get light attacked out of charging a heavy, unless you maintain a distance at all times, which seems like Shinobi territory. How is he supposed to open up with offense?

I considered having a buff to change the guard switch to the standard 100ms but I decided to drop it because while you cannot block on reaction you can dodge into the light on reaction and get a guranteed shield bash. I think the fully charged state should still have some extra vulnerability compared to neutral.

ooweda2blu
10-25-2018, 06:26 AM
It is an easy parry but you generally aren't just throwing it out while in neutral in 1v1 and there's other option selects you can mix between. In 4v4 it's mostly to stall and delay until team mates can arrive and exterior attackers cannot parry it.

I use it at the same rate in 1vs1 and 4vs4 while outnumbered, and it seems more useful while outnumbered than in 1vs1, because you can interrupt exterior attacks. But at least the opponent you lock can parry it, so if you set a light parry attack window on this zone attack you could die too fast bacause of a move that isn't so powerful and offensive like other as warden ones etc. At all it has low speed, so I think that a light parry attack window is a too aggressive change that make the move useless.

In 1vs1 I agree with you, there are other option like a good feinting (using full block) on heavies and speeded up heavies, or just a good timing on starting light attacks. I don't use shield bash on dodge because is unbalanced, but if it will be changed so it's another option, in particular to start a counter-attack on a dodged opponent's attack. My post means mainly the 1vsX fights, where the zone attack can help you while allies coming to help and I currently find it so useful.

Plus I suggest a speed up on shield bashe feint on heavies, because it's too slow and so expensive for the stamina bar we have.

Knight_Raime
10-25-2018, 06:15 PM
Fine with these. Would also like to see better tracking for shield uppercut. or the bash you can follow up with after landing a hit. (forget which has really bad tracking) and also would like his in combo heavies to be a bit faster. it's obnoxious that they don't. And the top one actually gets slower mid combo.