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View Full Version : The issue with how new heroes are conceived



Jazz117Volkov
10-23-2018, 12:56 PM
For Honor is a game that seems to always be at odds with its meta. Borderline ashamed of it, I'd say. And because of this all new heroes are designed to play against the meta in some way: awkwardly timed unblockables, special guardbreaks to punish parry attempts, uniquely slow unblockables to provoke reactions, strategic hyper armour, etc. There's an aspect of their movesets that counters something that was previously effective in most cases. This is a big issue; additions to a game should dovetail with the mechanic's and the community's habits. But not with For Honor, I feel like we're always test subjects in a formula that no one understand or has a clue how to get right.

The Wu Lin are just another "anti-meta". Like the additional heroes before them, there's a gimmick. This time is seems to be dodge attack direction cancel into undodgable attack from opposite direction...or unblockable. It's just another "trend" or "gimmick" that will further compound the "no reaction is best reaction" policy until the roster is fully learned by the community and their dealing with them will just be routine sprinkled with irritation, much like the previous roster.

Additionally, from what I can tell the Wu Lin are also leaning more towards bashes and unblockables to punish no reaction policies in situations where reactions are the most dangerous. This will force the gameplay to pivot on 500 ms parries to an even greater degree than it already does, and the community is already split between player's who can parry lights and players who can't.

The number one concern and complaint in the For Honor community is balancing--or lack thereof--and I'm concerned the Wu Lin are just going to drill holes in a sinking ship. On top of this we have the 4v4 stamina issue that apparently everyone but Ubisoft knew would be a problem. So it's just another chore period where we wait for the new kids to be disciplined by either extensive study of their gimmicks and a round or two of the nerf hammer. Either way, I expect a lot of noise for the next bit.

Tundra 793
10-23-2018, 01:53 PM
I only regret, I have but one like to give.

Syn.ASUR
10-23-2018, 02:37 PM
Wu lin except for the tiandi kick won’t be nerfed. Do you know why coz they are tied to expansion. A product that uni wants to sell new players are more likely to buy expansion as wu lin faction is pretty much jack of all trades. Plus top 1% have no problem so nothing is coming.

Capoupacap
10-23-2018, 03:01 PM
Jazz117, I think most complain take their ground on the fact that gameplay greatly increase with new mixup design.

If we compare day on kensei or conqueror to Wu-lin or even Gladiator/Highlander, what you say is true but is an attempt to bring fun/gameplay opportunity on the table (speak as a duelist).

My first surprise with the Wu-lin is that it's the first time that a new roster is not totally unbalanced and bring something interesting on the table (for shaolin and big JJ to my opinion).

I think the little issue with this development is that older roster is becoming old fashioned and a bit less funny to play with....that's the futur job to do and what the community ask for some less loved heroes.

Warden has been reworked certainly because it's a very played heroes but I played it for more than a year and I'm sick of it. I would love to see other heroes to be bring forward in the battle with proper moveset rework :) :) :)

yfkutfui
10-23-2018, 04:02 PM
that will further compound the "no reaction is best reaction" policy

that's it right there, that is exactly how you need to play this game, i have always been an aggressive attacking minded player,i would charge into a zone and battle it out with superior numbers, sometime i would lose sometimes i would win but always have fun, but these latest changes have made being an attacker suicidal, you throw you go OOS in an instance, you go OOS you die, there is absolutely no incentive whatsoever to attack, if the intention has been to get rid of the defensive meta then the moves UBI make is baffling to say the least. (unless of course you are a Chinese character?)

last night i went this new route, the "skill route" according to all these experts who are rejoicing that FH is now more about stamina management than fighting, i did absolutely nothing except block and gank and you know what it works, it works totally, i ran away unless i had a strong advantage, i stood to one side to let my teammates whittle them down and then jumped in at the last minute to get the kill, i was a coward, a cheat with no honor, if the other team was too strong i just ran around avoiding engagements, screw the team its all about me, i was a "Skillful" player, i did a lot of staring and not much else and let these poor fools who don't yet understand what this game is now about go after me, id just block, block parry then go for the kill, i never engaged unless i was fairly sure of winning and i was totally rewarded for playing like this, will i stick with this game? Hell no, this isn't my idea of fun and its not who i'am but its who UBIsoft want me to be clearly with these latest changes,

i just stand amazed at how UBI can so utterly screw-up this whole game up so spectacularly, i deeply deeply regret buying Marching fire, and have made a personal promise to myself to never ever under any circumstances buy an UBI soft product again. I cannot support a company that so blatantly disrespects its customers.

Knight_Raime
10-23-2018, 09:40 PM
I'll have to disagree. I don't see the new heros answering a meta. We moved beyond the turtle meta with season 5. (turtling still is and always will be possible but it's not the best way to play in a general sense anymore.) If we were to dub the time between season 5 and marching fire launch I would say that meta was known as the aggression meta. Meaning anything that let you play safe and offensive was king. Marching fire doesn't seem to follow this trend. Because nothing the Wu-lin heros have counters safe aggressive play. Nor does anything they do actually add to it either.

The wu lin heros in my opinion were designed in a vacuum. Meaning they didn't adhere to how the game currently plays. This is easily seen by feintable dodge attacks. Or how Shaolin is the first non assassin hero to have reflex guard. To put it a different way I think this was the first time the devs decided to take an idea and run with it since they made the original roster. Only this time they've got a year of experience and feedback under their belt.

That's not to say all of their designs turned out well or are big hits with people. Tiandi/shaolin more or less worked out from design to execution. But JJ is a 4v4 designed hero who struggles in duels. This is one of the concepts that competitive play doesn't enjoy. As they want heros to be viable at high tier play in any mode. And JJ just isn't for duels. And Nuxia is a big wait and see. She walks the fine line of good idea and execution. Or good idea and poor execution. She also sort of leans towards the concept of relying on enemies to mess up to be effective. Which makes her feel really gimmicky. Aramusha is an example of this. And the competitive scene hates his design.

But the reason she stands a chance for them is because her mistake is during offense. Aramusha HAS to turtle in order to start. Nuxia doesn't.

DefiledDragon
10-23-2018, 10:01 PM
I see Shaolin as an assassin. I know he's supposed to be a hybrid but reflex guard, deflects, stealth feat? Feels like an assassin to me ;)

I don't like Nuxia's traps mechanic because I don't see how it can ever be truly useful without feeling OP. I don't think they'll find a middle ground with it. It will either be reactable and therefore useless, or unreactable and therefore OP because it completely negates your opponents defence. In either case, it's another 50/50 mechanic and I don't like the guessing game aspect of FH. If I wanted to play guessing games I would fire up MK9 and play that game where you have to guess which cup the eyeball is under.

Knight_Raime
10-23-2018, 10:12 PM
I see Shaolin as an assassin. I know he's supposed to be a hybrid but reflex guard, deflects, stealth feat? Feels like an assassin to me ;)

I don't like Nuxia's traps mechanic because I don't see how it can ever be truly useful without feeling OP. I don't think they'll find a middle ground with it. It will either be reactable and therefore useless, or unreactable and therefore OP because it completely negates your opponents defence. In either case, it's another 50/50 mechanic and I don't like the guessing game aspect of FH. If I wanted to play guessing games I would fire up MK9 and play that game where you have to guess which cup the eyeball is under.

Yeah I forgot that he has an actual deflect. Which is also different as only assassins have those.
Traps are fine as is if how I see things playing out end up coming true. I made a big thread about this a few days back.
But essentially what the thread stated was this:

Traps on their own are bad due to both a buffered and a delayed follow up light have counters. And traps can be stuffed with 500ms lights on reaction.
But when we account for typical play styles and how her kit functions as a whole her traps are not bad. Basically put due to all of this neither Nuxia or her opponent can play predictably.

Nuxia can't spam traps. Because there are counters. Nor can she react to it whiffing in the same way because there are counters. But on the flip side Her traps being what they are make her heavies unsafe to parry. Kind of like centurions are something you basically almost never parry. And her kit has easy access to both traps and 400ms lights. This means the opponent can't simply block all heavies and only react by stuffing her traps when they show up with lights. Because Nuxia will just chip her opponent to death with 400ms lights.

So turtling against her isn't an option. And reacting to her traps the same way isn't an option. Nor can Nuxia do the same tactic repeatedly. With this knowledge alone Nuxia is always going to be a viable threat for most levels of play. it's only in high tier where things might be different. Because those players are capable of making very good reads and also have the benefit of great reaction times. So I have no doubt a top tier player will probably make Nuxia a joke. But for most people? I don't think so.

But again this is just me theorizing based on my knowledge of the game and how things typically play. Plus the benefit of conversing with people leagues better than myself. I could still be wrong here.

UbiInsulin
10-23-2018, 10:32 PM
I don't know that deliberately countering any meta was a deliberate factor in the Wu Lin's designs, but this is certainly a concern I can pass to the team, along with all the general feedback. Thanks for writing up your thoughts, JazzVolkov & co.

wolfman25br
10-24-2018, 01:49 PM
I fell Less "cheated" fighting chinese heros.
Far from the effect that we saw when S2 come out.
From a dev persective it is undeniable that the defense meta were adressed.
My personal taste dictates I would prefer a more paced fighting, with less gimmicks and no escape moves.
But now Its time to we all realize that we cant get both of this worlds.