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View Full Version : Ubisoft. Man Up for God Sakes and Force the Lightspammers to 'Git Gud'



HerrNein
10-20-2018, 11:55 PM
Ok, I'm sorry, but when I have to put up with the overwhelming majority of Orochi players spamming lights and nothing else (and I mean nothing else. They don't even try anything else. I've seen it)

I'm sorry. But the only reason this game can ever be enjoyable is when there is not an orochi or PK in the match lately. From my experience, Warden at least mixes up the SB spam with lights and heavies. I'm not even saying this as someone who cant handle it. The moment I hit a light or GB on an assassin using my cent, 9 times out of ten it ends with them falling and unable to get up. I'm not every player, however, and this is a regular issue people have with these classes. Truthfully, it's probably one of the reasons new players start up, get sent into some matches against light spammers, and outright decide to not come back. Sure, you can tell them to 'git gud'. Shouldn't we smack the light spammers in the mouth, however, and tell them the exact same thing?

So the way I see it, there is a couple of solutions. All assassin classes should honestly see their light combos locked after use until they pull off something else, or dramatically nerf the damage of assassin light attacks. The point of it would be to make it so that the light spam isn't viable, even at low levels. Make the 'Hard' to play classes actually hard to play.

DefiledDragon
10-21-2018, 12:06 AM
They've already said that they know light spam is a concern at lower levels of play (their words, not mine) but they don't feel it's an issue and players need to learn how to deal with it.

HerrNein
10-21-2018, 12:09 AM
Well, the issue with that line of thinking is you still need to properly address things for the lower levels of play. Those 'lower levels of play' are where everyone new to the game starts, and if you have this sort of toxic meta making it unenjoyable for people who don't feel like being shoehorned into playing certain classes, it's a recipe for disaster.

You have to keep the new players try to welcome in, and if orochi light spammers (for example) are running them off so they can get cheap kills, you're essentially shooting yourself in the foot because you couldn't be bothered to tell the equivalent to the community spoiled brat 'no'.

DefiledDragon
10-21-2018, 12:15 AM
Yeah I can see what you're saying and I agree that being initially faced with something that feels like it's unmanageable can be daunting, but it's just a matter of practice. I'm sure it does put some people off, but the designers were pretty clear in their statement that they don't see it as an issue and believe me, you're not the first to complain about light spam by any means. This is a direct quote of their statement regarding light spam.

Light Spam Meta? Assassin Meta?
An issue we read about from non-top tier players is that they talk about a “light spam”, or an “assassin meta”. This has been a difficulty to approach balancing-wise for us, since these complaints often drown out the evidence of how weak “light spam” is at the top level of play. When we look at the dataset above, we see Shaman is the only Assassin in the top half of the Win Rate, and Shaman isn’t famous for her “light spam” at any level of play.

In presenting our data here, we want players to understand that “light spam”, while annoying, doesn’t actually yield overpowered characters. Learning to combat such offense is an important step for a player to improve their For Honor skillset. As our intention is to keep pushing 1v1 combat into a meta in which offense is more viable, it’s important that the community understand where we stand on this topic.

MarshalMoriarty
10-21-2018, 12:36 AM
Wanting people to be aggressive is fine, but as has been stated many times this was never an issue on console to begin with. And lightspamming is a cheap and very safe form of offense that rewards people for low effort and stunts their growth as players. There is no need for them to branch out past light spam when it works so well and so effortlessly against so many.

DefiledDragon
10-21-2018, 12:47 AM
Wanting people to be aggressive is fine, but as has been stated many times this was never an issue on console to begin with. And lightspamming is a cheap and very safe form of offense that rewards people for low effort and stunts their growth as players. There is no need for them to branch out past light spam when it works so well and so effortlessly against so many.

You're right but it will only carry them so far and then they will be forced either to adapt or to be crushed by people who can counter it.

UbiInsulin
10-21-2018, 01:07 AM
We'll continue to let the team know that players aren't fans of light spam. I think there's probably some concern that these type of changes could make heroes who have viability issues at higher levels even less viable.

I think the Aramusha changes listed here (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-336363-16/patch-2010) show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

Tundra 793
10-21-2018, 01:19 AM
Light Spam Meta? Assassin Meta?
An issue we read about from non-top tier players is that they talk about a “light spam”, or an “assassin meta”. This has been a difficulty to approach balancing-wise for us, since these complaints often drown out the evidence of how weak “light spam” is at the top level of play. When we look at the dataset above, we see Shaman is the only Assassin in the top half of the Win Rate, and Shaman isn’t famous for her “light spam” at any level of play.


I think the Aramusha changes listed here show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

What I'm hearing here, is that most balance changes are made with only top tier levels of gameplay in mind, with only occasional tweaks being made to favor regular, or average tier players. Is this accurate? Is the game truly only balanced largely with the highest levels of players in mind, letting mid and lower tiers of players suffer because of the needs and wants of the smallest group of players, the very top?

DefiledDragon
10-21-2018, 01:25 AM
What I'm hearing here, is that most balance changes are made with only top tier levels of gameplay in mind, with only occasional tweaks being made to favor regular, or average tier players. Is this accurate? Is the game truly only balanced largely with the highest levels of players in mind, letting mid and lower tiers of players suffer because of the needs and wants of the smallest group of players, the very top?

Well they just broke Aramusha at high level play in an attempt to make him easier for new players to deal with, so objectively no, but at the same time they have dreams of the competitive scene and seem to keep pushing the game that way, at least in their minds.

Hormly
10-21-2018, 01:28 AM
Personally I've never been bothered by light spam too much. Then again I'm on pc

Tundra 793
10-21-2018, 01:32 AM
Well they just broke Aramusha at high level play in an attempt to make him easier for new players to deal with, so objectively no, but at the same time they have dreams of the competitive scene and seem to keep pushing the game that way, at least in their minds.

That's what the community has been feeling since launch, what with their fancy seasonal launch tournaments and such, but still not being viable competitively.

I've been out of the game for a while, but whenever i hear about some statistics, or the infamous "ze data" it always seems to only factor in PC players, or the very top few percentages of the overall playerbase, and that has always bothered me.
Surely you shouldn't balance the game, any game, using only player feedback from the top few percentages? That cannot be indicative of the gameplay experience of the playerbase at large.

There just seems, to me at least, to be a huge disconnect between the highest levels of players desires, the goals of the development team and the needs of the majority of the players, which just keeps giving us ill-balanced heroes and mechanics.

Roseguard_Cpt
10-21-2018, 01:35 AM
Light Spam alone isn't an issue for me, but recently I fought a pair of 2 Orochis in Breach and Kiai plus light spam is a rather tough fight, and in that particular scenario if I survived one the other would Kiai me again. It was a tad overwhelming to say the least, as they coordinated dodges to avoid it themselves

DefiledDragon
10-21-2018, 01:55 AM
That's what the community has been feeling since launch, what with their fancy seasonal launch tournaments and such, but still not being viable competitively.

I've been out of the game for a while, but whenever i hear about some statistics, or the infamous "ze data" it always seems to only factor in PC players, or the very top few percentages of the overall playerbase, and that has always bothered me.
Surely you shouldn't balance the game, any game, using only player feedback from the top few percentages? That cannot be indicative of the gameplay experience of the playerbase at large.

There just seems, to me at least, to be a huge disconnect between the highest levels of players desires, the goals of the development team and the needs of the majority of the players, which just keeps giving us ill-balanced heroes and mechanics.

They put far too much focus on overall winrates, or at least they seem to, while ignoring the winrate between characters. So a character could have the "ideal" 50% winrate overall, but they might only win 20% of their fights against Kensei, say, but win 80% of their fights against Orochi and they wouldn't consider that to be an issue. This is, I believe, why the roster is a **** show balance wise and likely always will be.

I get the impression that the balance team are just flailing around in the dark and really don't know where to start to balance the roster. They use the wrong metrics and I believe that they make bad choices when it comes to reworks. Their statement on Conquerors bash illustrated this perfectly to me. I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "while we know Conq's bash is a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we feel we need these tools in the game to give chars a viable offence", which to me simply says "we know Conq's broke but we don't know how to fix him" and that's worrisome.

Tundra 793
10-21-2018, 02:21 AM
They put far too much focus on overall winrates, or at least they seem to, while ignoring the winrate between characters. So a character could have the "ideal" 50% winrate overall, but they might only win 20% of their fights against Kensei, say, but win 80% of their fights against Orochi and they wouldn't consider that to be an issue. This is, I believe, why the roster is a **** show balance wise and likely always will be.

I get the impression that the balance team are just flailing around in the dark and really don't know where to start to balance the roster. They use the wrong metrics and I believe that they make bad choices when it comes to reworks. Their statement on Conquerors bash illustrated this perfectly to me. I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "while we know Conq's bash is a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we feel we need these tools in the game to give chars a viable offence", which to me simply says "we know Conq's broke but we don't know how to fix him" and that's worrisome.

Couldn't agree more. With every rework, or launch of new heroes, and some balance patches, they seem to make a lot of very questionable decisions. It's like, for all the data gathering they claim to do, they've little idea what to do with it.
Ever hero rework, or new hero that gets launched, seem to just follow a simple guideline; "Buff". Significant nerfs are few and far between it seems, but whenever larger reworks are introduced, it's almost exclusively buffs.
The heroes keep getting pushed to go faster with more abilities than before, there's no temperament to balance it seems. It feels like, during balance meetings in the office, no one ever says "maybe that's a bit much".

They just push out faster attacks, larger movesets, better Feats and better heroes. Nothing ever gets taken down and leveled out.

I really do fear that catering to the highest ranked players is causing this inability to effectively balance the game.

CandleInTheDark
10-21-2018, 04:23 AM
Their statement on Conquerors bash illustrated this perfectly to me. I'm paraphrasing but it was along the lines of "while we know Conq's bash is a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we feel we need these tools in the game to give chars a viable offence", which to me simply says "we know Conq's broke but we don't know how to fix him" and that's worrisome.

The problem there is they gave conqueror, for the most part, one very strong tool. The problem with this is that if it turns out that took us a little overtuned they can't really do a lot with it because what does it leave him with. They showed this with the peacekeeper when they nerfed her damage values rather than slow her down a little and give her actual options such as in the kensei rework.

For all people moan about them, the kensei rework was by far the best because it gave him options and made his kit more viable, shaman, again, very viable kit with different things being useful in different situations meaning to do well someone needs to know the whole kit. The Wu Lin look pretty good also, the thing is give a character a proper kit and you don't need 400ms lights or overtuned bashes and if something does need nerfing they still have a good kit. Course people call the characters with kits they should be aiming for with the rest so they will never please everyone in any case.

MarshalMoriarty
10-21-2018, 05:21 AM
The Kensei rework sure, but I'll never accept Shaman (or Jian Jun for that matter) as being balanced. They are far too good at far too many things - they leave their contemporaries in the dust.

As for light spammers hitting a wall if they meet good players. Sure, but you assume they care about that. If they are still beating enough people, they still have no incentive to rethink their approach. Nor would it be easy to do so. The longer you play, the more entrenched your style becomes. If people aren't encouraged to play properly (and not just spam) early enough, they likely never will. If they end up losing to the extent they no longer enjoy it, many will simply leave rather than learn how to actually play.

The only way to stop light spam is to make it less effective at any level of play. With no positive reinforcement to using light spam, it will not take root in so many players.

vikingstone
10-21-2018, 05:34 AM
what is git gud? Are you metal or something? Are you trying to say Get Good? So you have thrown out English and grammar to try make up some rude word or insult? You sound like a fool. Say get better or become better but saying get good is just, wow!

Hormly
10-21-2018, 05:56 AM
what is git gud? Are you metal or something? Are you trying to say Get Good? So you have thrown out English and grammar to try make up some rude word or insult? You sound like a fool. Say get better or become better but saying get good is just, wow!

Words of wisdom Lloyd

CandleInTheDark
10-21-2018, 05:58 AM
The Kensei rework sure, but I'll never accept Shaman (or Jian Jun for that matter) as being balanced. They are far too good at far too many things - they leave their contemporaries in the dust.

I've not played Jiang Jun yet but Shaman is pretty much where they should be aiming for with any kit. You can't rely too much on one thing, she gets nothing off of light spam and if you want to use her well or fight against her well you need to know her whole kit, all this without being unreactable in any of her kit. It is more a problem with her 'contemporaries' needing to catch up with her than anything else.

The devs have learned what they can do with kits and apply that to new characters, the older ones need some of that too.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-21-2018, 07:09 AM
So why can't ubi just tier the characters individually. If the people you are going against are worse than you then their orochi attacks faster. If they are better than they attack slower. I mean if matchmaking is really matching you up with people near your equal and they implement this wouldn't it solve the issue of light spam between pro, PC, console average, casual, and noobs?

Miadous
10-21-2018, 07:47 AM
I feel like Light spam is a problem because of the pure lack of options those classes have, like orochi and peacekeeper. What else are they going to do? Spam lights or spam feints, either way the fighting system in the game revolves around spam if you want to be on offense, since if you let a heavy fly, you just get parried and then you're losing. Defense will always win in this game, and light spam is the safest form of offense. If all characters were designed as deeply as the new faction, with actual options and mixups, light spam wouldn't really be a thing.

Oddy._.
10-21-2018, 08:54 AM
One of the glaring things I believe the game designers are completely overlooking is the idea that not every attack has to be in the speeds of 100's. Meaning, that instead of changing everything by hundreds make it like a 450ms or 456ms or idk... any number other than 100! It's not hard, and who knows maybe those teeny tiny changes are what makes the attack speed the best balance we all want.

Blitzwarrior771
10-21-2018, 10:11 AM
The only thing that can work against guard breaks is the light attack . Why donít you say hey letís fix guard breaks so people donít have to use light attacks as much maybe they would use different combos ?

MarshalMoriarty
10-21-2018, 10:22 AM
Candle, I don't disagree that the game could have used Shaman as 'the new normal' baseline. The problem is that she entered the game a year ago and they have shown no movement in that direction. She is still outrageously better than most of the roster and the only ones to come close did so by becoming spam characters rather than rounded heroes with versatile and interesting playstyles.

Picking out Kensei is to point to the single rose in the garden of weeds. Jun is the same deal as Shaman. He is comfortably better than a whole slew of heroes to the point of making them obsolete. He's strong, tough, fast, has good reach, armored attacks, unblockable finishers, a better version of hidden stance, dodge attacks and a potent parry grab. He's so high above characters like LB, Shug, Nobushi, Highlander etc that you can't even see him with a pair of binoculars.

MuscleTech12018
10-21-2018, 11:38 AM
We'll continue to let the team know that players aren't fans of light spam. I think there's probably some concern that these type of changes could make heroes who have viability issues at higher levels even less viable.

I think the Aramusha changes listed here (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-336363-16/patch-2010) show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

HAHAHAHAHA. How ? by making a whole new DLC and charge money for ... more light spam ?=))

wethebishop
10-21-2018, 12:39 PM
It takes little to no skill to perform any attack in this game. Any combo can be learned easily. Most of the skill is in defense. So, when someone is using a character with a move set that's harder to defend against or attacks that are harder to react to, you can say that that player has a handicap given that they have equal hit points.

The real issue is that either you are able to react to light spam or you are not. It's two completely different games depending on whether you're able to react to it or not. The game is broken for you if you cannot block 400ms attacks. People who cannot block these attacks or have some minor internet issues cannot access the "real" game – I would say this is most people.

It's a frustrating game by design. What would the game look like if every attack could be reacted to? Would it revolve around characters who can initiate 50/50's? Personally, I think that the game should be slowed down and have more thought added to it, not just reaction times and guessing the mix-ups, but this would be a completely different game.

wethebishop
10-21-2018, 12:52 PM
I just know that the description for fast-attacking characters like the Orochi and the new characters should all be "easy" and the description for Shugoki should be "hard"

Yokonato
10-21-2018, 12:53 PM
This is a good point we see this the most on console, consoles have the highest playerbase over PC and it needs separate balancing because we have various internet speeds on top of a wide range of tv sets, 10 extra latency and someone playing on a Sony tv vs a Vizio tv can make a world of difference when you slap on every 400ms light chain.

There is a serious problem when all the rep 40+ orochi all use the same playstyle light and Kiai in 4v4, and even in duel and brawl, luckily connections arent as bad in those modes, but 4v4 dedicated servers dont help much when a assassin is running around with 120 latency

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-21-2018, 01:59 PM
I just know that the description for fast-attacking characters like the Orochi and the new characters should all be "easy" and the description for Shugoki should be "hard"

They could offer more incentives for people to play "hard" characters to better balance out the multi-player. Or maybe you get less of something for picking an easy character. Sort of like how Warhammer makes you pay more for the better regiments. Of someone plays an orochi they get less renown and less out of game loot than if they play a lawbringer.

Blitzwarrior771
10-21-2018, 02:06 PM
Oh yeah I always forget we need to **** off PC .

CandleInTheDark
10-21-2018, 03:40 PM
One of the glaring things I believe the game designers are completely overlooking is the idea that not every attack has to be in the speeds of 100's. Meaning, that instead of changing everything by hundreds make it like a 450ms or 456ms or idk... any number other than 100! It's not hard, and who knows maybe those teeny tiny changes are what makes the attack speed the best balance we all want.

In the open tech test the devs tested shaving around 33ms off the raider heavy attacks and said that they are looking towards a large scale balance pass, so it is on their radar (pun intended). They had to have it every 100ms when they had timesnap but that's not the case now.


Candle, I don't disagree that the game could have used Shaman as 'the new normal' baseline. The problem is that she entered the game a year ago and they have shown no movement in that direction. She is still outrageously better than most of the roster and the only ones to come close did so by becoming spam characters rather than rounded heroes with versatile and interesting playstyles.

Picking out Kensei is to point to the single rose in the garden of weeds. Jun is the same deal as Shaman. He is comfortably better than a whole slew of heroes to the point of making them obsolete. He's strong, tough, fast, has good reach, armored attacks, unblockable finishers, a better version of hidden stance, dodge attacks and a potent parry grab. He's so high above characters like LB, Shug, Nobushi, Highlander etc that you can't even see him with a pair of binoculars.

I don't disagree, which is why I have said here and elsewhere that that is what the devs need to be aiming for with the reworks rather than one strong tool that they then can't nerf without breaking them. I would argue that the Wu Lin are using the same philosophy they went with with the Shaman, the older characters need that also.

Of course the problem is that they can't just do that to all the OG at once, it takes time, and every time they do put in that effort people scream op at them rather than try to learn the character.

Siegfried-Z
10-22-2018, 01:05 PM
We'll continue to let the team know that players aren't fans of light spam. I think there's probably some concern that these type of changes could make heroes who have viability issues at higher levels even less viable.

I think the Aramusha changes listed here (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-336363-16/patch-2010) show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

Aramusha is not the real problem in light spam concerns.

Roch is. And now Nuxia...

Soldier_of_Dawn
10-22-2018, 02:27 PM
We'll continue to let the team know that players aren't fans of light spam. I think there's probably some concern that these type of changes could make heroes who have viability issues at higher levels even less viable.

I think the Aramusha changes listed here (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-336363-16/patch-2010) show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

I suggest that light spam and 50/50s should be faded out with each rework. On top of that, character balancing should take place on a monthly basis now that we have 22 heroes on the roster. If it remains at 2 reworks every 3 months (a season), then that would be 8 reworks a year which means we would have to wait at least 2 years for the rework of some characters. That would be a very long time for the game to remain unbalanced.

Archaelion
10-22-2018, 02:49 PM
We'll continue to let the team know that players aren't fans of light spam. I think there's probably some concern that these type of changes could make heroes who have viability issues at higher levels even less viable.

I think the Aramusha changes listed here (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-336363-16/patch-2010) show that we factor in the feedback of regular players into balancing decisions where possible.

Oh right because Aramusha is OP. That's what everyone said. No. Aramusha is arguably the 2nd worst hero in the game (shugoki being the worst). He's a much worse berserker, less mixup, no hyper armor, no real unblockable short of an expensive zone that gets parried, confined to using top or side stance unlike berserker who can choose anything. But let's not nerf berserker... let's listen to the players who are struggling with aramusha who started the game 5 minutes ago. Let's balance around those players. #sadshugoki #sadaramusha #makesamuraigoodagain #whydoesthevikingswineveryfactionwaritsarealmyster y