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View Full Version : To Americans who seem to be phobic to the DH Mosquito



leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Guess what has a place of honor in the National Museum of the USAF in AAF markings?

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3365

leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 09:49 AM
Guess what has a place of honor in the National Museum of the USAF in AAF markings?

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=3365

Heliopause
02-16-2008, 09:54 AM
this looks interesting too... (http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/photos/media_search.asp?q=heinkel&btnG.x=9&btnG.y=5)

DKoor
02-16-2008, 09:56 AM
People are unbelievable.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MEGILE
02-16-2008, 10:20 AM
Mossie is the suck!?!!1112

Korolov1986
02-16-2008, 01:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Megile:
Mossie is the suck!?!!1112 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you fuel it with the 1337.

ElAurens
02-16-2008, 01:11 PM
One thing about the Mossie that is hard to realize, until you stand next to one is it's size.

It's really fairly big.

The example at the NMUSAF is very handsome indeed in it's blue livery. Nearby is the NMUSAF's Spitfire, another handsome example.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7592/usaafspitib6.jpg

Pirschjaeger
02-16-2008, 01:14 PM
A Mossie by any other color is still a Mossie. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Sorry, just felt that needed to be said. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-16-2008, 01:21 PM
Dumb luck. A scheme to give unemployed Limey carpenters and cabinet makers something to do.

leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 02:27 PM
I love economic history!!!!!

Pirschjaeger
02-16-2008, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Low_Flyer_MkIX:
Dumb luck. A scheme to give unemployed Limey carpenters and cabinet makers something to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was it dumb luck that they were unemployed?

Or was it planned?

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-16-2008, 02:42 PM
I wouldn't put anything past those Limeys. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 02:42 PM
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s261/G6AS/1199864.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s261/G6AS/1132804.jpg

The Mosq does for me what the Whirlwind does for LF. Talk about big gazoongas, whooeeeeeeeeeeee.

R_Target
02-16-2008, 02:43 PM
It was a scheme enabling greedy American lumber barons to loot the Royal Treasury.

Low_Flyer_MkIX
02-16-2008, 02:47 PM
I had a prospective father-in-law a long time ago who used to work at a Mosquito factory. He loved that aeroplane like his children. Told me he used to spend his lunch break wandering around the Mossies ready for collection, awe-struck that he could have played a part in making something so beautiful.

leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 02:52 PM
I met a Fairey employee at the RAF Museum. He saw I was of the true creed (liked the Battle) and bemoaned that the RAF forced Fairey to put it into production with a pathetic Merlin I when Fairey wanted to use a 2000hp engine.

horseback
02-16-2008, 04:36 PM
Most Yanks on this forum aren't actually phobic to the Mosquito in all its forms so much as they are phobic to the young fools who can't seem to figure out that the P-38 (or B-17, in some particularly benighted cases) was designed with a different role in mind than the Mosquito, and actually could do that particular job better.

The Mossie was never intended to be a single seat day fighter, nor did it have pretensions of being a heavy long range bomber. It performed beautifully in its intended roles as a fast bomber, high alt reconn aircraft, nightfighter and heavy fighterbomber (or strikefighter), and should be recognized for that, instead of trying to force its round peg into square holes occupied by American built types.

cheers

horseback

ploughman
02-16-2008, 07:07 PM
That guy?

Ratsack
02-16-2008, 07:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ploughman:
That guy? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

'...touched me in a way I've not be touched since boarding school...'

I laughed so hard I had to mop up my coffee after reading your post in the 'other' thread.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

MB_Avro_UK
02-16-2008, 08:08 PM
Hi all,

I suspect that if the Mosquito was a US design the world would have heard more about it.

But it was not. And the US sought to produce the Mosquito.

Speilburg had plans to produce a film about Mosquito crews and their daring exploits day and night over Europe but shelved it because it was British...

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

thefruitbat
02-16-2008, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
Most Yanks on this forum aren't actually phobic to the Mosquito in all its forms so much as they are phobic to the young fools who can't seem to figure out that the P-38 (or B-17, in some particularly benighted cases) was designed with a different role in mind than the Mosquito, and actually could do that particular job better.

The Mossie was never intended to be a single seat day fighter, nor did it have pretensions of being a heavy long range bomber. It performed beautifully in its intended roles as a fast bomber, high alt reconn aircraft, nightfighter and heavy fighterbomber (or strikefighter), and should be recognized for that, instead of trying to force its round peg into square holes occupied by American built types.

cheers

horseback </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you horseback. Its just that some people don't seem to realise that it DID excel in the roles you described in your post.

Comparing a mossie to a b17 or p38 is just plain rediculous. They were all intended for different roles, but thats ubi.

fruitbat

leitmotiv
02-16-2008, 09:28 PM
Right. You did not see P-38s carrying bombs to Berlin too fast to be intercepted. The P-38 was a tactical fighter-bomber which operated in the areas of operations of armies. It had long legs but not with ordnance aboard, and it certainly could not carry 4000-lbs to Berlin from the UK. Simply put, the RAF had a unique world-beater in the Mosquito, and it is utterly profitless to trivialize it. It's a damn pity 1C didn't provide as flyable the B MkIV/B MkIX/B MkXVI which would have made it very clear what a hot ship it was. Because the FB MkVI carried guns, the unenlightened assume the Mosquito was some kind of fighter. The VI was a tactical bomber with a heavy forward-firing armament like the Tu-2. The only true fighters were the Mosquito night fighters, and, like the Ju 88C/G, Do 217J, and the He 219, it was NOT an airplane which would excel in fighter vs fighter combat. That was the one role in which it was not exceptional.

Korolov1986
02-16-2008, 10:08 PM
I think this is all about comparing the Mossie to the P-38, so let's get a few points straight about the P-38 - since it evidently is misunderstood.

- The P-38 was designed during peacetime with a leery anti-war congress controlling the budget. As such, it was designed in such a way to do what was required of it and built with components that were not fully developed. The Mosquito, having been developed while bombs were falling all around the factory, nevertheless had full backing and funding for it's intended role(s). The P-38 had to tip-toe around policy that would have stopped it cold had it not been for a few creative name changes.

- The P-38 was essentially the 'modern' fighter in development for the USAAF. The role for the aircraft was to shoot down enemy planes - no other provisions were in mind. To put this in perspective: drop tanks weren't even built for the aircraft before 1942. The Mosquito was a new aircraft with provisions for either a heavy fighter role or bomber role.

- The P-38 broke a lot of ground for the USAAF, and as such was a complex, finiky type. Without the benefit of proper research and development, along with the lack of wartime support, numerous problems remained on the aircraft all the way to the end of it's service life. The Mosquito was an otherwise conventional aircraft - simple, straight forward, and to the point. It's designers knew what they wanted and how to do it.

The end result? Completely different aircraft, designed for completely different purposes. The P-38, striving for maximum speed and ceiling. The Mosquito, striving for maximum speed with a bomb load while not using strategic materials.

As I said in another thread, instead of fighting over which aircraft is better, consider how well they would have worked together.

P.S. Since the thread seems to be directed toward Americans, why is it that British have such phobia toward the Lightning?

huggy87
02-16-2008, 11:00 PM
Terrific plane and very brave crews. I did not know I was not supposed to not like the mossie. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Ratsack
02-17-2008, 02:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
...That was the one role in which it was not exceptional. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awww, don't be like that! How am I meant to get all hairy-chested and challenge you to dogfight mano a mano if you go wimping out like that! You sure you ain't sum kinda limey?

Ratsack

leitmotiv
02-17-2008, 07:43 AM
Well, I'm fond of turning on 109s with my faithful Pe-2, but, somehow, I have a feeling the Mosq VI would not be as nimble. By the way, looking at Bowman's Osprey on the Mosquito bombers/fighter-bombers I noticed the Mosq IV (Merlin XXs) suffered from the same defect as the Spitfire V: unearthly slow acceleration, thus, Mosq IV pilots never throttled back when maneuvering (see page 20). Of course, this defect is <STRIKE>not</STRIKE> modeled with the game Spitfire.

<span class="ev_code_RED">ERROR: Apologies to Oleg. YES, slow acceleration is modeled in both the Mosquito VI and the Spitfire V. My tests of the Spit V 1941 of a couple years ago were not accurate! </span>

leitmotiv
02-17-2008, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
I think this is all about comparing the Mossie to the P-38, so let's get a few points straight about the P-38 - since it evidently is misunderstood.

- The P-38 was designed during peacetime with a leery anti-war congress controlling the budget. As such, it was designed in such a way to do what was required of it and built with components that were not fully developed. The Mosquito, having been developed while bombs were falling all around the factory, nevertheless had full backing and funding for it's intended role(s). The P-38 had to tip-toe around policy that would have stopped it cold had it not been for a few creative name changes.

- The P-38 was essentially the 'modern' fighter in development for the USAAF. The role for the aircraft was to shoot down enemy planes - no other provisions were in mind. To put this in perspective: drop tanks weren't even built for the aircraft before 1942. The Mosquito was a new aircraft with provisions for either a heavy fighter role or bomber role.

- The P-38 broke a lot of ground for the USAAF, and as such was a complex, finiky type. Without the benefit of proper research and development, along with the lack of wartime support, numerous problems remained on the aircraft all the way to the end of it's service life. The Mosquito was an otherwise conventional aircraft - simple, straight forward, and to the point. It's designers knew what they wanted and how to do it.

The end result? Completely different aircraft, designed for completely different purposes. The P-38, striving for maximum speed and ceiling. The Mosquito, striving for maximum speed with a bomb load while not using strategic materials.

As I said in another thread, instead of fighting over which aircraft is better, consider how well they would have worked together.

P.S. Since the thread seems to be directed toward Americans, why is it that British have such phobia toward the Lightning? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everybody with a bit of understanding of the WWII air war knows how the P-38 interceptor developed into a long-range fighter/tactical fighter-bomber, but, apparently, in another thread some Yanks were trivializing the Mosq and rating the P-38 as a strategic light bomber comparable to the Mosq---truly ridiculous.

Pirschjaeger
02-17-2008, 10:31 AM
I really don't see how the P38 can be compared to the Mossie. The P38 is something in between a fighter and a Mossie, not one or the other.

I'd rather compare the P38 to the P47.

mortoma
02-17-2008, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
One thing about the Mossie that is hard to realize, until you stand next to one is it's size.

It's really fairly big.

The example at the NMUSAF is very handsome indeed in it's blue livery. Nearby is the NMUSAF's Spitfire, another handsome example.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/7592/usaafspitib6.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Probably so but one would expect it to be at least above average in size. I'll never forget the first time I walked up to a P-38 Lightning at an airshow. Now that's one plane that is way more GIGANTIC than you'd think. Seemed more like a bomber than a fighter
once I was close to it!!

jarink
02-17-2008, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
That was the one role in which it was not exceptional. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't such a great transport. Heck, even the old C-47 had it beat hands-down!
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

On a more serious note, I have to second what Korolov1986 said about the P-38, especially this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Korolov1986:
The P-38 was designed during peacetime with a leery anti-war congress controlling the budget. As such, it was designed in such a way to do what was required of it and built with components that were not fully developed. The Mosquito, having been developed while bombs were falling all around the factory, nevertheless had full backing and funding for it's intended role(s). The P-38 had to tip-toe around policy that would have stopped it cold had it not been for a few creative name changes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was also especially true for the B-17, which was designed as a strategic bomber when the Army (not the USAAC; the Army top brass) did not even want a heavy bomber. The only way it was even allowed to be developed and purchased was to fulfill a coastal defense role due to it's long range. Even then there was resistance to the design, especially from the Navy. The crash of the 299 prototype also severely slowed development and could have bankrupted Boeing, since they were paying nearly all development costs out of their own pocket.

Upon it's inception, the B-17 was at least as much as, and probably more revolutionary than the Mossie was.

leitmotiv
02-17-2008, 11:34 AM
I am searching Postlethwaite's pay site: WW2 Images.com (thousands of rare aircraft phots), and I just found a photo of a Ju 88C-6 heavy fighter shooting down a 192 Squadron fighter Mosquito in a day fight over the Bay of Biscay on 11 Aug 1943 (A04935). Very interesting. One just doesn't think of an 88 getting the upper hand on a Mosq.

Friendly_flyer
02-17-2008, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ElAurens:
Nearby is the NMUSAF's Spitfire, another handsome example.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Handsome indeed! I think the yellow outline roundel stars are the best looking US plane marking of the all, and it do look good on the Spitfire!

MB_Avro_UK
02-17-2008, 02:50 PM
Hi all,

Here's some of my pics from the Mosquito Museum, near Hatfield in north London,England. The yellow prototype is also on display.

Here's a link to the Museum detailing aircraft on display:

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/mus/uk/dehav/mosqmus.htm

The Prototype first flew in November 1940.

Its maiden flight was made in great secrecy from the grass field next to the hangar in the pic rather than at de Havilland's airfield a few miles away.

Now there's a little known bit of aviation history for you!


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14653.jpg


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14656.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14662.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14664.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14659.jpg


Read the Caption http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14671.jpg

And here's a piece of the prototype fabric cover that I own which was removed when she was re-covered a few years ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/Scan10022-1.jpg




Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

b2spirita
02-17-2008, 03:15 PM
I remember being in a parade there a couple of years ago when i was in the ATC, correct me if im wrong but was there a vampire there also??

MB_Avro_UK
02-17-2008, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by b2spirita:
I remember being in a parade there a couple of years ago when i was in the ATC, correct me if im wrong but was there a vampire there also?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It's actually a de Havilland museum but is known as the Mosquito Museum. There's also other de Havilland aircraft such as the Chipmunk.

Here's a pic from the museum of a Horsa glider fuselage section.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14670.jpg


And a de Havilland Vampire.Next to it is a de Havilland Heron.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14650.jpg

Here's a pic of the Mosquito cockpit seen from below.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/2006-08-14654.jpg

Best Regards,

leitmotiv
02-17-2008, 08:08 PM
One of the few UK aircraft museums I missed. Could kick myself.

Cajun76
02-17-2008, 11:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Hi all,

And here's a piece of the prototype fabric cover that I own which was removed when she was re-covered a few years ago.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/MB_Avro/Scan10022-1.jpg




Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif That's pretty neat, but when I used to work on T-56 engines on the C-130, I'd end up with all kinds of 'spare' parts.

No big deal. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

leitmotiv
02-18-2008, 04:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
Well, I'm fond of turning on 109s with my faithful Pe-2, but, somehow, I have a feeling the Mosq VI would not be as nimble. By the way, looking at Bowman's Osprey on the Mosquito bombers/fighter-bombers I noticed the Mosq IV (Merlin XXs) suffered from the same defect as the Spitfire V: unearthly slow acceleration, thus, Mosq IV pilots never throttled back when maneuvering (see page 20). Of course, this defect is <STRIKE>not</STRIKE> modeled with the game Spitfire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<span class="ev_code_RED">ERROR: Apologies to Oleg. YES, slow acceleration is modeled in both the Mosquito VI and the Spitfire V. My tests of the Spit V 1941 of a couple years ago were not accurate! </span>

MB_Avro_UK
02-18-2008, 01:43 PM
Hi all,

I will be visiting the Mosquito Museum again in early March when it opens. If anyone wants any particular pics let me know.

The aircraft are not roped off and the staff are very friendly. I suspect that a few are Mosquito vets.

Here's a bit of history:

A Brief History of Salisbury Hall and the Site of The
de Havilland Aircraft Heritage Collection.

The site of the Hall and the Museum is, without doubt, a very old one. It is close to the first century BC settlement of Wheathamstead, the major Roman town of Verulanium and St. Albans which is of late Saxon foundation. Early notable (but unwelcome!) visitors to the area were probably Julius Caesar in 54BC, and Boadicea of the Iceni in 61AD. During the early 9th century the site was part of the Manor of Shenleybury. It was held by Asgar the Stallar, who was probably a high official to the Wessex King Egbert. After the Norman Conquest the Manor passed to the de Mandeville family who held it when the Doomsday Book was written in 1086. In 1380 the Hall passed in marriage to Sir John Montague, later Earl of Salisbury. It is perhaps at this time that the Manor acquired its now familiar name of Salisbury Hall. About 1420 Alice, Countess of Salisbury, married Sir Richard Neville, who became Earl of Warwick. He had two sons, Richard Neville (better known as Warwick the Kingmaker) and John, Marquis of Montagu, who were both killed at the Battle of Barnet in April 1471.

A new house was built about 1507 by Sir John Cutte, Treasurer to King Henry VII and Henry VIII. The house was purchased in 1668 by James Hoare, a London banker. At this time the present house was built, bringing with it associations with Charles II and Nell Gwynne, who lived in a cottage by the bridge to the Hall. Her ghost is one that is said to have been seen in the Hall. The Hall passed to Sir Jeremy Snow's nephew, John Snell, and from then through various hands, and during the latter part of the 19th century was occupied by a succession of farmers. However, about 1905 Lady Randolph Churchill, as Mrs. Cornwallis West, came here to live. Her son, Winston Churchill, became a regular visitor. During the 1930s Sir Nigel Gresley, of the London and North Eastern Railway, was in residence. He was responsible for the A4 Pacific Steam Locomotives one of which, Mallard, holds the world speed record for steam locomotives of 126.5 mph. Rumour has it that the name came from the ducks in the moat.

In September 1939 the de Havilland Aircraft Company established the Mosquito design team in the Hall, the Prototype Mosquito, E0234/W4050, subsequently being built in the adjacent buildings. Nell Gwynne's cottage was the centre of a silk worm farm, which supplied the silk for Her Majesty the Queen's wedding and Coronation robes. Yet another royal connection. De Havillands left in 1947 and the Hall slipped into a derelict condition. However, in 1955 the Hall was taken in hand by an ex Royal Marine Major named Walter Goldsmith who restored it and opened it up to the public. He brought back the prototype Mosquito, E0234/W4050, as one of the attractions in 1959, an action which led to the establishment of the Mosquito Aircraft Museum. Walter Goldsmith sold the Hall in 1981 and since then it has been restored to a very high standard and remains in private ownership to this day.


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

leitmotiv
02-19-2008, 06:19 AM
If you could get me about 50 shots of the B MkXVI's cockpit, bomb aimer's station, and bomb bay, I will arrange to have New York state returned to the UK.

Whirlin_merlin
02-19-2008, 08:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by horseback:
Most Yanks on this forum aren't actually phobic to the Mosquito in all its forms so much as they are phobic to the young fools who can't seem to figure out that the P-38 (or B-17, in some particularly benighted cases) was designed with a different role in mind than the Mosquito, and actually could do that particular job better.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've always viewed those arguments as being fueld by those who believe that the P38 could do everything a mossie could and do it better (based on the P38 being from the good ol' US of A). The reverse of what you see, isn't perspective wierd, I suspect we are both as right and as wrong as each other.