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Tranie117
10-19-2008, 05:27 AM
A month ago I made a post asking how a P-38 should take on a zero. This was extremly usefull and I learn't all about attakc runs. One person said that they did a one on one with a zero 10 times and beat them every time. So feeling stupid I went away and put everything people has said into practice. It was very usefull and I'm very pleasd you all helped me. But everyone kept saying that that P-38 can out-run a zero, this simply isn't true. I challange anyone to try and outrun a zero in a P-38. I've been trying for a month, it's not possible. I've tried straight and level and climbing slightly and climbing steeply. None of the above work. I use trim effectivly. I don't understand, I thought the p-38 was fast... The P-38 is a fast, it's the best damb plane ever! Why can't I outrun zeros? Seriously, try it.

Tranie117
10-19-2008, 05:27 AM
A month ago I made a post asking how a P-38 should take on a zero. This was extremly usefull and I learn't all about attakc runs. One person said that they did a one on one with a zero 10 times and beat them every time. So feeling stupid I went away and put everything people has said into practice. It was very usefull and I'm very pleasd you all helped me. But everyone kept saying that that P-38 can out-run a zero, this simply isn't true. I challange anyone to try and outrun a zero in a P-38. I've been trying for a month, it's not possible. I've tried straight and level and climbing slightly and climbing steeply. None of the above work. I use trim effectivly. I don't understand, I thought the p-38 was fast... The P-38 is a fast, it's the best damb plane ever! Why can't I outrun zeros? Seriously, try it.

DuxCorvan
10-19-2008, 05:35 AM
Online human-manned Zeros or AI Zeros? It's not the same... Anyway, it's not the same outrunning them if you never lost speed, or after losing energy and having to accelerate again. Fast planes are not always very good at building lost speed again, and lighter planes (like Zero) are usually better at accelerating at first, even if they have much lower top speeds.

Besides, AI Zeros don't break apart in a steep dive -like their human couterparts do.

BTW, lad, try to be nicer, mmmm? You can't start a discussion calling everyone a liar and then hope them to be kind to you.

Feathered_IV
10-19-2008, 05:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I've tried straight and level and climbing slightly and climbing steeply. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try diving slightly or diving steeply. Build up some speed first, then do yor level flight or climbing stuff. I fly against P-38's fequently. It's then that they always seem to get away.

I didn't see your original post though. Sorry you feel lied to.

Uufflakke
10-19-2008, 05:47 AM
Maybe there was some misunderstanding but lies...no. Forummembers are here to assist each other.

Maybe you got outrunned because your initial speed was much lower compared to the Zero and it takes a while to build up your speed again. And before you had time to do so you already got shot out of the sky.

There are some other options which could have lowered your speed: did you have a heavy loadout, where your flaps up, airbrakes retracted, was the ball centered? Those things influence your speed immensely.

Tranie117
10-19-2008, 05:50 AM
O.k. little harsh I admit, sorry. I'd change the title if I knew how. I fly against a.i. why does that make a big diference, they both fly in a straight line right?

Tranie117
10-19-2008, 05:51 AM
What ball?

tagTaken2
10-19-2008, 05:53 AM
Man, I assumed this was a raaiid thread.

LEBillfish
10-19-2008, 05:54 AM
Trim...prop pitch...shallow dive...Ctrl+E for extra "Energy" to engines......

K2

DuxCorvan
10-19-2008, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tranie117:
O.k. little harsh I admit, sorry. I'd change the title if I knew how. I fly against a.i. why does that make a big diference, they both fly in a straight line right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AI planes accelerate extremely fast, and tend to conserve energy better. Besides, as I told you, they don't *usually* have structural failures when diving too fast, or problems to pull up.

Why don't you try the other way? I mean, try to outrun a P-38 in a Zero, and see if you can leave it behind. You'll discover it catches you even before.

general_kalle
10-19-2008, 06:19 AM
dux...offline that wont work as you have proven nothing...AI will nearly always catch you no matter what plane you are flying..maybe except Me262 vs p11 but you know what i mean.

however offline you should try outtrun a zero in a p38...if that doesnt work its something about acceleration, initial speed etc.

i've outrun alot faster planes than the zero in my p38 online...offline proves nothing as its not realistic.

rnzoli
10-19-2008, 06:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">AI will nearly always catch you no matter what plane you are flying..maybe except Me262 vs p11 but you know what i mean. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That's not true, not even close to the truth. I have got a regular training/warm-up QMB (=offline) where I take on 4 average zeros in an F6F at 5000 meters. Their numbers are offset by my better engine power at that height and I can B&Z well. If I make a mistake, I can always dive and they'll break away soon.

What I also noticed however, that in some cases 1 pair "disappears" while I constantly work on the other pair.

Guess where they go: they go into the distance and around in a big circle to build up height, and then use that height to come in and catch me. If I try to climb away in that situation, they will keep following me successfuly. Same problem if I only make a shallow dive - they hang on to me successfully for a long time.

Unrealistic? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Odirroh
10-19-2008, 06:37 AM
Hi Tranie117,

there IS a difference between AI-planes and human-operated-planes!
AI-planes are, let say, slightly cheaters. They usually fly perfect,
as they are controlled by the program which knows to set parameter
perfectly in every situation. Not to mention things like overheating
and blackout.

I read your first post and tried it by myself. At the beginning I got
the same problem like you. Was shot done every time. But then started
to think about the advantages of the P38: speed!

If you fight a Zero within a P38 you have to operate in huge spaces
compared to a dogfight let say LA5 vs. Spit.
Build up speed by slightly diving and running away. You will see the
gap between you and the Zero increases. That indicates you ARE faster.
If the distance is about 5k meter climb. Steeply but try not to waste
to much energy. Turn into direction of the enemy. Watch exactly its
maneuvers. Build up speed again. If you pass now dont risk a head-on.
Use your speed advantage and climb again. Now you should be in an
advantageouly position. Use this position, to finish him. But be cautious.
You might be offered only one single chance. If you miss these chance dont
try to force the shot. If you fail try to put you again in an advantageous
position. This way you should be successful.

This might not be the best procedure, but it helped me to succeed.

By the way: I dont think that the guys in the days back fought in this
way. But nevertheless, it should work in the game.

You asked about the "ball". The ball is within a gauge and indicates
whether your planes yaws or not. If your plane is yawing you cant build
up optimum speed, somethng what AI-planes do always perfectly by the reason
I mentioned before.

Good luck!

Odirroh

P.S.:
DonĀ“t put the AI-plane to ACE. In my opinion thats absolutely unrealistic.

rnzoli
10-19-2008, 06:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ctrl+E for extra "Energy" to engines...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Cruel http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ALthough in some sense, true.
AI will not longer follow such planes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Unlike some online fellows, who are literally dying to get the last bullet into such "lightened" plane... Realistic? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Odirroh
10-19-2008, 06:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Trim...prop pitch...shallow dive...Ctrl+E for extra "Energy" to engines......

K2 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just fell off my chair - laughing... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

You are mean, very very mean. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

T_O_A_D
10-19-2008, 07:16 AM
What version of Zero?

M_Gunz
10-19-2008, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tranie117:
What ball? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, it's just one of those things on most instrument panels that gamers usually ignore.
It's much easier to believe the AI cheats than it is to learn to manage a plane really well.
I mean, after all the idea is to shoot and blow things up not have to learn a bunch of ground
school and real piloting since as we've been told by ex-spurts; IL2 has nothing to do with reel.

OTOH you can start here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_indicator)

I've posted too many times about slip and the ball, somebody else can explain.

I can predict that if you don't bother with it then 50/50 you'll be complaining about the guns
before too long as well.

R_Target
10-19-2008, 07:51 AM
I think you should work on your technique a little more. The slowest P-38 in IL2 can out-run the fastest Zeke at all altitudes.

JtD
10-19-2008, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tranie117:
A month ago I made a post asking how a P-38 should take on a zero. This was extremly usefull and I learn't all about attakc runs. One person said that they did a one on one with a zero 10 times and beat them every time. So feeling stupid I went away and put everything people has said into practice... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It wasn't my intention to make you feel stupid, I only wanted to point out the potential of the P-38. We've all been there, and I know it is hard for a beginner to handle a A6M in the -38.

What I did in scenario you described back then is illustrated in this track (http://mitglied.lycos.de/jaytdee/tracks/p38vsa6m2.trk).

Download it and copy it into the records folder of your games installation to watch it. Then try to reproduce. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ImMoreBetter
10-19-2008, 08:03 AM
I don't have track, so I don't know what the specific problem is.

But, I'll take a stab that you probably blew all your speed/energy in a maneuver. The zero used it's better acceleration to catch, and shoot you down before you get back any real speed.

The solution; don't waste your energy. Don't try to turn with him.

LEBillfish
10-19-2008, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:But, I'll take a stab that you probably blew all your speed/energy in a maneuver. The zero used it's better acceleration to catch, and shoot you down before you get back any real speed.

The solution; don't waste your energy. Don't try to turn with him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


One aspect that seems to continually be pointed out in actual fighter manuals is "when in combat, don't let your speed drop below_______".

Now for a Zero I would bet they only said that in regards to stalling.....Yet when it comes to U.S. aircraft in most cases it seems to be more tailored at keeping your energy up as eluded to.

It might serve many here, even old pros especially since we have the benefit of a speed bar, to consider "some number" lets say 320Km/H, and simply never go under that...That means when turning if it nears that point break off, in a climb level out some...On and on doing whatever it takes to NEVER drop below that minimum speed.

In regards to fighting a Zero it does a number of things.....It places you at your optimum climb rate yet not his, it makes it too fast for him to make the turns as well as you and keep up (and yes you can out turn them if they're going too fast), and it makes it so you're constantly in a high energy state....and lastly, so he might never be able to catch you.

Fight and turn all you want.....Just NEVER....EVER....Drop below that minimum speed in combat you determine to be optimum.

K2

WHOOPS!!!!!!!........I didn't say all that. Ignore it all, it is a lie, something you should never do!......Not that I'm saying that just because of the red hinomaru's in my sig....Yet because I want you to lose...err I mean win...Yeah, that's it, win....So don't do what I suggest above.

mortoma
10-19-2008, 09:27 AM
I can't believe I'm reading this, The P-38 J model is so much faster than a Zeke it's insane!! It's hopelessly faster. If the Zero was at 3000 meters and the P-38 stayed at ground level, the Zero would still have a hard time even with his huge TAS advantage!!!

HuninMunin
10-19-2008, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tranie117:
A month ago I made a post asking how a P-38 should take on a zero. This was extremly usefull and I learn't all about attakc runs. One person said that they did a one on one with a zero 10 times and beat them every time. So feeling stupid I went away and put everything people has said into practice. It was very usefull and I'm very pleasd you all helped me. But everyone kept saying that that P-38 can out-run a zero, this simply isn't true. I challange anyone to try and outrun a zero in a P-38. I've been trying for a month, it's not possible. I've tried straight and level and climbing slightly and climbing steeply. None of the above work. I use trim effectivly. I don't understand, I thought the p-38 was fast... The P-38 is a fast, it's the best damb plane ever! Why can't I outrun zeros? Seriously, try it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Always keep in mind that the relative energy states of opposing planes dictate the outcome of the fight - always.
Even against the AI you should easily succeed with the right tactics and a bit of training.
Make sure you have the advantage of altitude on your side, try to always have at least 1 - 2 km of height on your prey.
Always try to remain on the high ground, don't waste speed - your turns should always be as shallow as possible and as sharp as neccessary.

The rule of thumb is: If you're not diving onto an enemy, you climb.
Online be aware of the magical 7 km mark, above that you'll drag contrails and you'll basicaly be a bright lit christmas tree.

With time and experience you'll quickly be able to judge the bigger tactical picture: Wich plane is capable of what, who can touch me, how to counter that, when am I safe to engage etc.

M_Gunz
10-19-2008, 11:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LEBillfish:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImMoreBetter:But, I'll take a stab that you probably blew all your speed/energy in a maneuver. The zero used it's better acceleration to catch, and shoot you down before you get back any real speed.

The solution; don't waste your energy. Don't try to turn with him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


One aspect that seems to continually be pointed out in actual fighter manuals is "when in combat, don't let your speed drop below_______".

Now for a Zero I would bet they only said that in regards to stalling.....Yet when it comes to U.S. aircraft in most cases it seems to be more tailored at keeping your energy up as eluded to.

It might serve many here, even old pros especially since we have the benefit of a speed bar, to consider "some number" lets say 320Km/H, and simply never go under that...That means when turning if it nears that point break off, in a climb level out some...On and on doing whatever it takes to NEVER drop below that minimum speed.

In regards to fighting a Zero it does a number of things.....It places you at your optimum climb rate yet not his, it makes it too fast for him to make the turns as well as you and keep up (and yes you can out turn them if they're going too fast), and it makes it so you're constantly in a high energy state....and lastly, so he might never be able to catch you.

Fight and turn all you want.....Just NEVER....EVER....Drop below that minimum speed in combat you determine to be optimum.

K2

WHOOPS!!!!!!!........I didn't say all that. Ignore it all, it is a lie, something you should never do!......Not that I'm saying that just because of the red hinomaru's in my sig....Yet because I want you to lose...err I mean win...Yeah, that's it, win....So don't do what I suggest above. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That number would be near to top speed (high cruise?) of expected enemies where they don't
have excess power to match you in moves without slowing down.

I'd expect that with enemy on tail you don't want to straight-anything no matter your speed.

heloguy
10-19-2008, 01:28 PM
That 'never-decelerate-below' speed is going to change according to the situation.

If you're straight and level, it depends on what aircraft you're fighting, just like Billfish was talking about. If they're level with you, or below you, it will basically be whatever speed is faster than they can go, if you're aircraft is faster. If they're above you, well, just give it all she's got and hope they're a poor shot in a dive/deflection.

In a climb, however, it's a little more scientific. A great tool is IL2 compare. Using the Max ROC at constant TAS, one can find the bucket airspeed for whatever aircraft you happen to be flying.

This is the airspeed that provides the fastest rate-of-climb aerodynamically. Basically, the best you'll get for that aircraft period.

SeaFireLIV
10-19-2008, 04:46 PM
I`m not an expert with the P38, but I`ve flown it a few times and one thing I know - it`s fast! No way should any zero, even AI catch you up once you start running.

You are not doing it right, it`s that simple.

M_Gunz
10-19-2008, 05:25 PM
The thing with best rate of climb is that you'll be slow and very slow at jinking or turning
to say, ohhhh, avoid fire, when you're at best ROC. An enemy with greater speed can zoom up
and nail you while you all but hang there.

But still look at IL2C P-38J vs A6M2 and note they have the same turn time at 100% power at
1 km alt at about 380 kph (TAS). Then look at turn times at about 420 kph, the P-38J is 28
secs while the A6M2 is up around 38-40 secs and any faster and the A6M2 CAN'T turn while the
P-38 CAN.
While sustained level turns are not smart, the -ability- to sustained level turn tells a lot
about what your plane can do and keep on doing once you have oriented your lift vector.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-19-2008, 05:35 PM
Initial energy, initial energy, initial energy. Trim, trim, trim, and trim.

S!

LEBillfish
10-19-2008, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
That number would be near to top speed (high cruise?) of expected enemies where they don't
have excess power to match you in moves without slowing down.

I'd expect that with enemy on tail you don't want to straight-anything no matter your speed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heloguy:
That 'never-decelerate-below' speed is going to change according to the situation.

If you're straight and level, it depends on what aircraft you're fighting, just like Billfish was talking about. If they're level with you, or below you, it will basically be whatever speed is faster than they can go, if you're aircraft is faster. If they're above you, well, just give it all she's got and hope they're a poor shot in a dive/deflection.

In a climb, however, it's a little more scientific. A great tool is IL2 compare. Using the Max ROC at constant TAS, one can find the bucket airspeed for whatever aircraft you happen to be flying.

This is the airspeed that provides the fastest rate-of-climb aerodynamically. Basically, the best you'll get for that aircraft period. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually I'm not saying "entirely" either of those things......I'm not saying use your enemies aircraft as a benchmark, nor am I saying alter it due to the situation on a "pre-planned" basis.

However in a way you must have in the back of your mind both.

First off, determine "your aircrafts" best climb rate....There is your minimum. Then alter that by increasing the speed as high as you can remaining reasonable. This is your new minimum speed.

Now you may determine that you might roll better, turn better, etc. at a different speed....So consider that and adjust your "minimum speed accordingly".

You now have the speed you "refuse" to drop below...EVER...when in combat.

However, once in combat or as your experience grows with other aircraft....That speed may "increase".

Lastly, now having a minimum speed that insures your E state is always good (though clearly not the best)....Consider tactics that help you take it to optimum (E state) when it's needed (might be a hard dive that slowly goes shallow, or simply a shallow one, whatever). Part of this may be throttle, trim, prop pitch tweaking.

The goal here to always no matter your aircraft NEVER to drop below this optimum speed.

For a Zero, that may very well be very low (as that is where you get your best turning and so on...and those are the tactics which serve it).

This minumum speed is your "defense".....Past that everything should be offensive.

K2

Y0RGO
10-19-2008, 06:16 PM
KOMRADE!

You MUUST intrack runing Jear!

You are fly Jear down, yes?

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p38-13.jpg

Crikey2008
10-19-2008, 08:28 PM
Second: check if the following things were occurring as you were being caught:

1. the Zero was above you when chasing? if so then it was in a shallow dive and likely to have been at a greater airspeed.

2. you were looking behind to notice that the Zero was catching up?. If so you may have been weaving to get a better view behind which leads to decreased airspeed. Keep in mind that the view behind from the cockpit is an illusion when turning so that you may have thought you were level turning but in fact may have been climbing. Use of trim to level the turn helps to achieve sustained airspeed.

First: Know your enemy and know your aircraft. the Zero 5 can climb at around 860m/min while the P-38 can climb at 760m/min even though its about 3 times as heavy as the Zero (heavier in fact than some light bombers). It's heaviness is a factor in its initial acceleration performance. but once it's up and accelerating it has few peers. The P-38 set a few records in development: it was so fast in a dive that it had to incorporate a hydraulic control system for the pilot else the pilot could barely place control input to it. The P-38 has such powerful armament that it can shoot at far greater ranges than most.

P38J is good for around 414mph max speed while the A6M5 can get to around 351 mph.

It may be helpful in understanding the P-38 if you can find any material on P-38 aces such as Jack Lifrey or Richard Bong.

VW-IceFire
10-19-2008, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mortoma:
I can't believe I'm reading this, The P-38 J model is so much faster than a Zeke it's insane!! It's hopelessly faster. If the Zero was at 3000 meters and the P-38 stayed at ground level, the Zero would still have a hard time even with his huge TAS advantage!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
True but never underestimate the pilots ability to turn a superior plane into one that just fills the gunsight.

I've flown the Zero and Ki-61 to many successful victories against the P-38J because they stayed slow and tried to play my game. And when they got in trouble they firewalled the throttle into a climb...which would be great if they had a minute to get away from me but I was going faster at the time and I just cut the corner on their climb and blasted them. Happens allot.

Anyways the P-38 should escape in a shallow dive first. Build speed and then climb away from the Zeros. Winning 1 v 1 against a Zero 10 out of 10 is possible with some patience. Either you have to be aggressive in the first pass and go for broke or you need to climb away and wait till he drops off. The earlier the version of the Zero the quicker this will happen.

The P-38 will still merely chug along at 9000m where the Zero will look like its standing still. At that altitude turn rate is almost nil anyways.

WTE_Galway
10-19-2008, 08:56 PM
I have posted this before but its become my favorite P38 quote for the time being.

(Medal of Honor winner Jo Foss)

Q. What was your impression of the P-38's?

A. The P-38 is really a good plane as an interceptor, above 20,000 feet. If you get notice that a bogey is coming in, and don't have much time, give it to the P-38's; they can really get up there. If it's above 20,000 feet they make their runs, go on out far enough to make a turn, and come back for another run, When the P-38's were sparring around with me, they would buzz way down below me, take a look, then go up through a hole in the clouds, take a short look around and come back down. They ran all around the sky while I was doing my best just to stay where I was.

Q. Was any attempt made to use them at the limit of their range?

A. They went clear up to Bougainville. They sent P-38's to fly cover on B-17's and on B-24's. There would be Zeros above them and below them would be more Zeros, float bi-planes and float Zeros, but their orders were to stay in formation with the bombers. If any of the enemy fighters made an attack, they'd just pull up, give a short burst, and the enemy fighter would pull right back up out of range. When they failed to do this one day, three of them were shot down. They went down below 20,000 feet to get some "easy meat", (these float bi-planes that can turn on a dime) - went down and tried to dogfight - that was the end of three P-38's.


from: http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Aircraft/VMF-121/



Note this bit ...

" ... they went down below 20,000 feet ... that was the end of three P-38's. "

Crikey2008
10-19-2008, 09:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
A. The P-38 is really a good plane as an interceptor, above 20,000 feet. If you get notice that a bogey is coming in, and don't have much time, give it to the P-38's; they can really get up there. If it's above 20,000 feet they make their runs, go on out far enough to make a turn, and come back for another run... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the Americans refused to export superchargers to Europe at one stage. The British believed this was one reason why the p-38 was underpowered in their view; the British interest in the P-38 waned. The P-38's subject to this view were probably pre the J series.

VMF-214_HaVoK
10-19-2008, 09:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I believe the Americans refused to export superchargers to Europe at one stage. The British believed this was one reason why the p-38 was underpowered in their view; the British interest in the P-38 waned. The P-38's subject to this view were probably pre the J series. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The British chose not to have them installed to my knowledge. Not that US refused to ship them.

S!

R_Target
10-19-2008, 09:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
The British chose not to have them installed to my knowledge. Not that US refused to ship them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They also ordered them with the engines turning in the same direction.

heloguy
10-19-2008, 10:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
The thing with best rate of climb is that you'll be slow and very slow at jinking or turning
to say, ohhhh, avoid fire, when you're at best ROC. An enemy with greater speed can zoom up
and nail you while you all but hang there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I guess I should have been more specific. Max ROC A/S is only good in combat if both aircraft are level, and yours has a faster rate-of-climb.

No, it doesn't do any good if you get bounced, that's for sure.

M_Gunz
10-20-2008, 05:57 AM
You can get "bounced" from below in the case I told.
Check IL2C, the P-38J has the better ROC at any speed and 100% power.
However at the same speed, the A6M2 is well above his best sustained climb, he can zoom
very well and hold aim long enough to get well aimed shots in before you'd get very far.
And then of course would come the thread: My ROC is better but he still caught me!
We had a LOT of those years ago here.

rhinomonkey
10-20-2008, 07:00 AM
For me this is the main thing that puts me off this game. I'm an offline player only and all the AI planes fly way too fast and can do ridiculous manouvers. Even trying to keep up with squad mates is allmost impossible most of the time.

The stupid unrealistic flat spin everytime you bank is another thing that gets on my nerves.

Apart from that it's all good. Well apart from the unrealistically easy take offs and landings. but other then those three things il2 is great.

Klemm.co
10-20-2008, 10:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rhinomonkey:
The stupid unrealistic flat spin everytime you bank is another thing that gets on my nerves. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That flat spin is not unrealistic. You are merely pushing the aircraft too hard because of the lack of any sensory feedback apart from visual and audible. Take some more time in the aircraft you fly (especially the 190 series) and you'll get to know the signs of onsetting stall and will not pull back the stick all the way everytime you bank. Being just above the stall is where you want to be (well, not in all situations but in many). Being more gentle with the stick can be very rewarding. And use rudder extensively to keep the ball centered. Sometimes some fast rudder work is nessecary to not stall while pulling out or even while turning.

M_Gunz
10-20-2008, 11:02 AM
See if you spin when you keep the ball centered.

Oleg used to repeat three words over and over in response to many FM complaints....

rhinomonkey
10-20-2008, 05:11 PM
the flat spin is unrealistic. i understand the physics of flight and fully expect to stall in a hard turn. stalling is one thing but going into an unrecoverable flat spin because of a hard turn is wrong. As far as i know there arn't many reports of undamaged WW2 aircraft going into a flat spin and crashing because of hard banking. lots of reports of stalling and having to nose down to recover.

i seem to remember some ex ww2 pilot on here once saying that entering a flat spin like this is unrealistic.

b2spirita
10-20-2008, 05:16 PM
Ever heard of a p39?

WTE_Galway
10-20-2008, 05:16 PM
What flat spin ?

I rarely spin out at all but even when I do its usually not a flat spin. I have ended up in a flat spin maybe 4 or 5 times in 7 years. An inverted flat spin maybe twice. So counting inverted maybe 9 or 10 times all up ?

Are you saying whenever you spin it devolves to a flat spin ?

Maybe something is odd about your control setup.

SeaFireLIV
10-20-2008, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
What flat spin ?

I rarely spin out at all but even when I do its usually not a flat spin. I have ended up in a flat spin maybe 4 or 5 times in 7 years. An inverted flat spin maybe twice. So counting inverted maybe 9 or 10 times all up ?

Are you saying whenever you spin it devolves to a flat spin ?

Maybe something is odd about your control setup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree. Another case of someone not flying it right and instantly blaming the sim. I also think he probably has his joystick set up too sensitive to pull himself into a flatspin every time, if it even is a `flat`spin. As I`ve never had a flatspin happen every time, even in a P39!

rhinomonkey
10-20-2008, 05:29 PM
my controls are set up pretty much the same as i have them in other sims (i know comparing sims is silly). What i'm trying to to say is that i think the planes spin uncontrollably nearly every time they stall which in my opinion is unrealistic.

I've played il2 for several years and it's not a case that i am blaming the sim for my own failings. i can fly without spinning but i feel that i have to fly unrealistically to achieve that.

crucislancer
10-20-2008, 05:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rhinomonkey:
my controls are set up pretty much the same as i have them in other sims (i know comparing sims is silly). What i'm trying to to say is that i think the planes spin uncontrollably nearly every time they stall which in my opinion is unrealistic.

I've played il2 for several years and it's not a case that i am blaming the sim for my own failings. i can fly without spinning but i feel that i have to fly unrealistically to achieve that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unrealistically? How so?

I don't think I'm flying unrealistically, yet I never get into a flat spin, except for the very, very rare occasion that I ham-fist the P-39, and even then it wasn't from turning.

WTE_Galway
10-20-2008, 05:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rhinomonkey:
my controls are set up pretty much the same as i have them in other sims (i know comparing sims is silly). What i'm trying to to say is that i think the planes spin uncontrollably nearly every time they stall which in my opinion is unrealistic.

I've played il2 for several years and it's not a case that i am blaming the sim for my own failings. i can fly without spinning but i feel that i have to fly unrealistically to achieve that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok that is different to saying you always end up in a flat spin.

The spin process has three steps ...

- incipient spin, this is where everything is about to go haywire a stall is happening and all the alarm bells should be ringing in your head to get the nose down and opposite rudder in immediately

- normal spin, if you ignore the warning signs this is the usual result, most spins only get to this stage. This one is easy to recover from even if inverted.

- flat spin. In rare cases the spin will devolve to the point you are not just spinning but the aircraft is also perfectly level with the horizon. Flat spins are hard to recover from unless you have about 10,000 feet of altitude to play with. Inverted flat spins (spinning, dead flat with the horizon and upside down) can be impossible to recover from.


So, it seems your complaint is the aircraft in IL2 enter a NORMAL spin to easily ?

That is a different issue.

Well be honest I do not agree with that either, but at least we are now talking about the same issue.

WTE_Galway
10-20-2008, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:

I don't think I'm flying unrealistically, yet I never get into a flat spin, except for the very, very rare occasion that I ham-fist the P-39, and even then it wasn't from turning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The p39 still gets me occasionally http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

... it must be years since I have spun out in my main ride the 109 but I have been running an offline p39 New Guinea campaign lately and you get a bit flamboyant with the wingovers or whatever and whoops away she goes.

Love the p39, keeps you honest http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

M_Gunz
10-20-2008, 09:19 PM
As long as I keep the ball centered I can stall clear into the ground and not spin.
It's just that sometimes I can't keep the ball centered but I have to push it hard to do that.

Is there some way to spin other than stall while in slip or skid? I'd love to see a track....

I can't get away with things I could in earlier sims, even IL2 before 4.0 patch. That's made
up by the things I can do that before I could not and should have.

Tranie117
10-27-2008, 05:10 PM
Thanks very much for all the advice, sorry it took me while to get round to reading them all and putting them into practice. I am findinh it allo easier now and I have managed to outrun afew Zeroes. I've made sure that we've started with similar energy state before hand, and I have out-run afew in both the P-38 and the P-51 D, (the two main planes I fly) It seems to be all about flying stright and true. which is no easy task for a noob like me. Haveing to adjust power to aviod Engine over heat, (even with the amazing engines in the 38/51) then I have to adjust the trim to match.

WTE_Galway
10-27-2008, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:


Is there some way to spin other than stall while in slip or skid? I'd love to see a track....

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flak off my wingtip flipped me into a spin once.

M_Gunz
10-27-2008, 05:56 PM
Try reading what the AVG (Flying Tigers) were trained to do for a start.

AVG home page (http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/)


You don't escape by flying straight for long, bullets go straight only much faster.
But you do need to keep out of slip/skid/wth-ever while you fly unless you want to slow down.

Bo_Nidle
10-27-2008, 06:33 PM
I have to agree that the P-39 has a tendency to turn round and bite you if you are heavy handed with the controls.

But it was famous for its alarming handling characteristics, as the the wartime USAAF song "Give me operations" said:

"Don't give me a P-39,
With the engine mounted behind,
She'll tumble and roll,
Then bore a deep hole,
Don't give me a P-39!"