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DeathByFluffles
10-09-2018, 05:55 AM
This isn't a rant about Orochi being overpowered. Sorry to disappoint you, but this is a discussion about why all of my friends quit this game. Let me start by saying this isn't limited to just Orochi. Warden and Kensei are also massive bullies to new players.

Alright, so why is Orochi, and the others afore mentioned, a problem? His kit is so easy for a new player to, well, mash buttons on and do well with that anyone just getting into the game is overwhelmed by the onslaught of lights. Do high players have this issue? No. Orochi is mostly a joke at higher levels, with sub-par winrates and parry fodder for good players. This is horrible game design. Orochi, by design, inherently punishes newer players for NOT using him against someone who is while being weaker than other options against veteran players in most circumstances. Whatever "rework" they gave to Orochi is clearly not working as intended. Sure, it boosted the win rates from what they used to be, but at what cost?

My friends got into For Honor less than two weeks ago. They played for less than 5 days, got frustrated with the endless stream of mashing Orochi players, Kensei spammers and Warden Catapults. They quit. They would rather not touch a game they spent money on than have to deal with the rage-inducing spam that Orochi does. Is it overpowered? No, they just needed to go into the practice mode, set a bot to spam lights as a Orochi, and practice for 35 hours straight. But, let's pause and analyze that for a moment. In order to remotely enjoy the game they spent money on, which they worked jobs to get the money so they could buy the game, you want them to spend MORE of their time trying to overcome a frustrating element of the game? That's. Bad. Design. As if I need to, I'll explain why this is also horrible design for the players USING Orochi: It encourages light spam at the lower levels. I've encountered Renown 3+ Orochis that don't know how to use the majority of his kit and just mash their little brains out. They're easy enough to kill. When you do, they often rage out of the room. So, let's go over what we've learned! New players quit and uninstall due to a few problematic classes with absurdly strong spam, while the ones doing the spam quit once they encounter people who can actually beat them. Is it any surprise players aren't flocking to For Honor? This game can be fun, especially when you find a player actually trying to master their class and have a fight that isn't both of you mashing lights in an attempt to out-spam the other. That's right. I masochistically stayed after they left, have broken more than just my patience when dealing with this "rework" Orochi and still feel relatively helpless. I either get the parry/block and get a few hits in before they do their massive backstep/i-frame dodges/parry me back, or I miss that 50/50 guess and die to spam. The character is just not fun to fight, and I doubt I'll ever enjoy what feels like a randomized dice-roll. Wardens and Kenseis are annoying, but there's counterplay to the spammers. I actively go out of my way to avoid Orochis in For Honor now, and this is what I want to focus on.

When a player goes so far as to actively avoid using/encountering a part of your game DESIGNED for replayability, haven't you failed in making it replayable? Thus, I want to make a suggestion:
+) At the end of a match (in any mode, Ranked or otherwise), have the players take a vote. This vote will, like map selection, be majority based. This vote will be the ability to BAN a class/character from being picked next round. Not only will this force players to play more than one class, it can help mediate the effects of a poor rework or toxic meta. I'm sure tons of top-tier players would enjoy the ability to ban Conqueror once in a while and not have to deal with his 60+% winrates and overly-polarized matchups. The new players can vote to not deal with Orochis, Wardens, Kenseis, Nobushis, etc.

I understand fighting what you're bad against will make you a better player, but at a certain point I just want to turn on my video game and enjoy it. I'm not aiming to be the best of the best. I'm just a casual scrub who enjoys For Honor, and would like the option to not fight an Orochi once in a blue moon. (Seriously, I can count the number of matches I've had without them on my left hand alone. I have 30 hours in the game.)

Knight_Raime
10-09-2018, 06:38 AM
This is a lot to unpack. I'll be bouncing around here and taking snippets as quotes. Do not take this as me attacking you or your friends or just in general being dismissive. I'm merely commenting on this casually as the post was written as a casual look at the game. And not a serious in depth one.

~"Alright, so why is Orochi, and the others afore mentioned, a problem? His kit is so easy for a new player to, well, mash buttons on and do well with that anyone just getting into the game is overwhelmed by the onslaught of lights."

The game even before it became more competitive focused was not forgiving. There were a lot more broken aspects of the game that people seldomly recall. Warlord for instance had an actual instant headbutt that could be chained into off of his full block attack. You couldn't punish his full block because the active frames of it were nearly instant. Meaning he could "no you" you into the next map. This is just one example. Yes light spam is frustrating. But the game has never not been unkind to new players. The point of bringing this up is simply to say that your friends likely would have quit over something else. Just as anyone would if they choose to flake out at the first sign of adversity rather than trying to invest time into getting over it.

~"Whatever "rework" they gave to Orochi is clearly not working as intended. Sure, it boosted the win rates from what they used to be, but at what cost?"

Orochi does decent. He want from B? tier to A tier in duels. In absurdly high tier match ups where you have like the top 100 players or so a lot of his kit falls off sure. But storm rush games absolutely work at most skill levels. His dodge light is fantastic at dealing with bash mix ups. Riptide is better at dodging raw fast moves than before. Like Warlords headbutt. and all though situationally useful his dash to cancel recoveries can be used to surprising effect against someone who only blocks heavies. Same with his omni direction in combo 400ms lights. The only place the rework didn't make better for him was his presence in 4's. But he's never really had one there to begin with. So you can't really blame the rework for that.

~"My friends got into For Honor less than two weeks ago. They played for less than 5 days, got frustrated with the endless stream of mashing Orochi players, Kensei spammers and Warden Catapults. They quit."

No offense to your friends but...if they quit that soon chances are anything else could have happened and they would have dipped at the first challenging point than stayed. Your friends expected to walk in and play decently well. For better or worse that's not for honor. And that's not inherently a problem. Warframe is another good example of a game that does a poor job with helping new players learn the game. And due to the style of the game itself it's not a very welcoming or friendly game. But that doesn't make warframe a bad game outright. It's actually quite highly spoken of. For honor could absolutely do a better job at teaching the game to newbies. Training room is inherently flawed due to some basic training room features missing. Added to the fact that it gives a false sense of security because bots buffer attacks. Which currently makes them slower than they should be. The video tutorials straight up use dated footage both with wrong information and old animations. Heck even their site they direct new people to practically makes stuff up about heros. Like aramusha having good dodges. So yes. It's bad to newbies in that sense. But the difficulty of the base game itself? No.

~"In order to remotely enjoy the game they spent money on, which they worked jobs to get the money so they could buy the game, you want them to spend MORE of their time trying to overcome a frustrating element of the game? That's. Bad. Design."

It doesn't matter how your friends got the game. Speaking to such only shows entitlement. Which is a disgusting behavior to have. Spending money on the game doesn't mean the devs have to cater to a specific person or group. Nor does it mean the opinion or experiences of said person(s) are more valuable than someone who spent less or got it for free. And asking someone to actually put time into something in order to be decent at it/deal with the first obstacles of the game isn't unreasonable in the slightest. You don't walk into something new and end up being a natural at it. That's not how things go.

~"I've encountered Renown 3+ Orochis that don't know how to use the majority of his kit and just mash their little brains out."

Rep has no barring on any indication of how skillful someone is or is not. Rep is purely a shiny next to someone's name that shows how long someone has played that character. And in the competitive circle of the game most don't even consider someone whos less than 10 reps on a hero as someone who's "experienced" with said hero. Not that I agree or disagree here. Imo rep shouldn't ever be mentioned in an argument because it's ultimately irrelevant. It's also a bit contradictory to bring up rep in the context that it's important in some fashion but than switch gears in the next sentence saying they're easy enough to beat. You basically devalue your point about light spam being potent.

~"Is it any surprise players aren't flocking to For Honor?"

I would say what turns people away from trying the game isn't how annoying some things might potentially be. But more so that the game isn't getting the kind of love it should be getting considering it's being marketed as a "game as a service" game like rainbow six siege is. Wether this is the devs issue or UBI doesn't believe in the product enough to fund the devs the money they need to actually get the game in a much better place is anyone's guess. The second major factor imo is that this community is notorious for being incredibly salty, toxic, and generally rude. I personally have never touched League of Legends despite having some interest in it purely because I hear so much terrible things about the community.

~" I want to make a suggestion:
+) At the end of a match (in any mode, Ranked or otherwise), have the players take a vote. This vote will, like map selection, be majority based. This vote will be the ability to BAN a class/character from being picked next round. Not only will this force players to play more than one class, it can help mediate the effects of a poor rework or toxic meta."

While I'd love a pick/ban system in the game we simply don't have a big enough roster to support that kind of mechanic. And I don't agree with the reasoning to push someone to play another hero. This isn't overwatch or some typical moba where team comp hugely matters. (it DOES in competitive play in 4's to an extent. But i'd argue no where near as much as aformentioned games.)

Faithea
10-09-2018, 08:31 AM
White Knight Raime....

You are defender of Ubisoft or Orochi main.

But rather stop defending something that is right now really broken. Not exactly overpowered ,but 100 % broken. No matter what you say.

SangLong524
10-09-2018, 09:56 AM
Ehem, its rare these days to find a match without orochi. I find that whenever people lose a match, the next match they switch to orochi, sometimes 2 orochis. They are extremely annoying. While i trust the statistics Ubi has given and Raime, casual PvP is spoiled by the overpopulated orochi. PvAi is where we chill and have fun. Casual PvP should be about having fun in a hard way.
Unrestricted 3 dimensional lights isnt fun to deal with and the stagger caused by one is enough for the second and the third to land.
I dont believe in a vote-ban system. I rather quit if i see the hero i wanna play being banned. Single select may be more acceptable.

Blitzwarrior771
10-09-2018, 10:13 AM
There should be less characters that you can choose. why you need two swordsman 2 assassins to chose of same faction . Come on now orochi is kensei on stereoids , kensei is very slow more predictable and is not mash up buttons character every skill move is 2 buttons . Now my main point of what is broken in this game is blocking , so called high skill players are good because they can predict and block your every single attack until they drain your stamina and punish you . Even grabbing is not working as intedended because of blocking . No nobody wants to admit it not players not developers of this in their own defense they blame light spam attack . Game should be a little bit more simple in terms of defending attacking in order that you have to predict it , you canít just mash buttons around and call it skillls what a **** are you ? 5 year old gtfo . You suppose to get up get into battle swing few strikes and die respawn again and get back into battle . But no you have to create super characters who never dies adding more and more mess to it buffing old characters on top of that is blocking abuse . And lastly why you need shiny armour ? Save it on frames donít slow your game down on purpose dummies . My last prediction is that expansion of this game will fail . Building a house on a weak foundation it is a bad move , fix foundation first . Watch people get bored , sick and tired of new characters .

Blitzwarrior771
10-09-2018, 10:22 AM
Why less is better ? Because if you go to arena and practice vs orochi moves what happen if you face kensei ? Totally different moves .lol you cant memorize them all . Or just mash the blocking button as pros do .

Tyrfing_.
10-09-2018, 10:47 AM
Of course you have to practice and memorize each hero. That's what the game is about, and that's what is needed to get better.

I disagree with a lot of points in this threat. But for sure I agree with a statement that some heros are worst for inexperienced players, and may be an unnecessary cause for people quitting the game early, which is always sad.
I personally would not count Orochi here on first place and especially no Kensei (!?!), but e.g. Amarusha, Centurion or Zerker.
I think these heros would be even more important to tackle for Ubi, than the issues of high level players.

Baturai
10-09-2018, 02:06 PM
Orochi op ? we are talking about B+ Tier Orochi ? who Suffered the most Nerfs throughout t The For Honor Timeline? XD
Just Because he is the most Picked hero, doesnt mean he is a Good Hero
Yes he Looks Cool. But thats all.
Orochi on Highlevels is like
trying to Open a can with a tooth stick
Any Pro Gamer can agree with that.

Weak Fragile Vulnerable to any Pressure.
he cant really Pressure with his low stamina.
if 100ms on his Second light makes him Op..

i really dont have anything to say... I am sick and Tired how untouched some Op Heroes are compared to Bad reworked Orochi. But for Some reason People always get b"*tthurt when its Orochi.
He needs Openers and a Better Stamina.

guest-Nez6tBu0
10-09-2018, 02:35 PM
I agree with the OP, I made separate topic about this:
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1941520-Attack-speeds-and-Reaction-times
I see it as connection kind problem. His light attacks shoud be 400ms and this is perfectly fine. Big issue is that on your end you dont see it as 400ms hit, you actually have like 200ms to react most of the time, even lower.

Blitzwarrior771
10-09-2018, 04:52 PM
Blocking is the problem

Knight_Raime
10-09-2018, 06:35 PM
White Knight Raime....

You are defender of Ubisoft or Orochi main.

But rather stop defending something that is right now really broken. Not exactly overpowered ,but 100 % broken. No matter what you say.

Orochi has never been my main and my post history will show that i've taken plenty of issues with this game.
But if you want to be dismissive fine. You just won't hear from me again.

DeathByFluffles
10-09-2018, 09:01 PM
I'll answer Knight's general feedback broadly:

I understand that For Honor is a "difficult game". Problem is, so is Dark Souls. Even Dark Souls, with the sheer amount of silly debuffs and interactions you need to memorize, weapon swing times, stamina management, etc, is welcoming to new players in various ways. The weapons are fairly obvious and all have the relatively same number of attacks and moves, making them all feel equally usable on some level. Sure, some do more damage than others, but not to a level that its impossible to beat someone using the Lothric Greatsword (Arguably the best weapon in the game) by using the Broken Short Sword (The flat out worst, and intentionally so). The game's defensive system isn't too different from For Honor, only really lacking the directional blocking mechanic. Both games have parry. Both games have attacks that can't be blocked. Both games have various weapons and "Classes". Dark Souls is single players at first, yes, but the entire game is built around invasions. Which is PvP content and the entire endgame of Dark Souls. You can argue all you want that Dark Souls is single player and can be played exclusively as that, but so can For Honor. There is story mode and Vs Ai. You can play For honor without EVER fighting another player. My point is this: How is it that Dark Souls, a series infamous for their difficulty, is able to bring in a large number of players (Like For Honor did on launch) and keep them playing in a game with arguably less replayability value than For Honor?

The answer is simple: For Honor's "difficulty" doesn't feel FAIR. When I get hit by a boss in Dark Souls, I SEE that attack coming. I HAVE time to react. If the boss parries me, that's my fault for being too aggressive. Etc. Etc. The reasons you get punished (Aka, take damage) in Dark Souls is due to OBVIOUS reasons that even my "Has-Never-Played-Video-Games-Father" could easily understand.

So how is For Honor's difficulty unfair? First is the most obvious: Some characters have attacks with little to no telegraphing, such as Orochi's lights. They can strike from any angle, don't have to follow any specific pattern and make the player on the receiving end feel overwhelmed. When I lose, I want to be able to CLEARLY see why. If a Raider kicks my butt, nothing he does is so fast that I can't understand what happened: "His slow, orange unblockable hit me? Okay, avoid that next time. I couldn't parry it, so I must have to dodge it!" This later becomes: "Okay, I've reached a point where I can easily dodge raiders if I play safe. Now I just need to master countering their slow attacks and take advantage of their weakness! They're slow enough and their attacks are easy to read, so I should be able to do this!" Raider, along with Nobushi, Shugoki, etc, are characters that feel fair to fight. Kind of like a boss fight! They don't do anything super crazy, their feints aren't unfair and fighting them is a true test of skill for both players.

Orochi, Kensei and others don't have this element of "fairness" in them. Kensei glides across the ground as if he has anime-powered rocket boots, giving his attacks an almost glitchy feeling to them. His feet don't even match up to the distance he moves when attacking! Orochi attacks really fast, all of this while he fills your screen with visual vomit. He flashes blue, creates a hit marker and has a very unique sound to his attacks. In terms of gameplay, this is a nightmare and extremely overwhelming for newer players: "He's glowing blue and hitting me faster than I can respond! Does the blue mean something? Should I be worried about it!? What about those noises!? They sound the same no matter which angle he's coming from!" Orochi fails on all levels of being enjoyable to fight. I'm not asking for nerfs, but his entire moveset is could use some graphical reductions. Does he REALLY need to glow blue like a super saiyan every bloody time he swings his sword? It's noise! It makes it harder to focus! In a game all about twitch-like reflexes, why does Orochi create so many distractions on your screen!? That's counter-intuitive!

Now, to address the point specifically:
"I've encountered Renown 3+ Orochis that don't know how to use the majority of his kit and just mash their little brains out."
Rep has no barring on any indication of how skillful someone is or is not. Rep is purely a shiny next to someone's name that shows how long someone has played that character. And in the competitive circle of the game most don't even consider someone whos less than 10 reps on a hero as someone who's "experienced" with said hero. Not that I agree or disagree here. Imo rep shouldn't ever be mentioned in an argument because it's ultimately irrelevant. It's also a bit contradictory to bring up rep in the context that it's important in some fashion but than switch gears in the next sentence saying they're easy enough to beat. You basically devalue your point about light spam being potent.

Reputation DOES matter, but not in the way you perceived it. Mostly my fault for not being clear, but this is what I meant: Someone who has played Orochi long enough to have 30+ hours on him should know more than just mashing one button! The fact he doesn't know how to deal with someone being aggressive with THAT much play time shows how debilitating Orochi can be for new players! Renown isn't a mark of skill, you're right, but with practice COMES skill! The fact he's practiced NOTHING but how to unpredictably mix his lights shows the harm this class can bring to new players. Orochi's lights need a rework, and that's just a fact at this point. Love him or hate him, he's being used as a crutch and is actively harming the longevity of For Honor's playerbase. That's reason enough to fix him.

DeathByFluffles
10-09-2018, 09:08 PM
I forgot to mention this, but Orochi falls into the trap that is known as M.E.T.A, or Most Effective Tactic Available. Think of this from a new player's perspective:
"I can hit all these other buttons, but they take time to land and usually get me parried and killed. When I hit the fast attack button, I rarely get stopped and seem to never run out of stamina! It does good damage, I move forward a lot when I do it and people tend to run from me! That must mean I'm doing the best move on this guy! It feels good to win!"

This spirals into Renown 5+ Orochis that have no understanding of the game and get obliterated by other players. Their KDA, Win Ratio and enjoyment go into the gutter and they either quit the game altogether or have the desire to learn why. This. Is. Bad. DESIGN.

Blitzwarrior771
10-09-2018, 09:26 PM
No they donít quit game thatís what you wish orochi just need to avoid duels. 4v4 it is his thing . What they should do is nerf light attacks work on that issue and remove guard break or fix it as before . This will never happen .

bannex19
10-09-2018, 10:56 PM
White Knight Raime....

You are defender of Ubisoft or Orochi main.

But rather stop defending something that is right now really broken. Not exactly overpowered ,but 100 % broken. No matter what you say.

Raime knows what he's talking about and you've provided nothing. Calling a guy that answered most of the issues brought up by the op a white knight is just silly. He wasn't white knighting at all, he just has a lot more insight than the average trash player that calls for nerfs because their bros watched them get wrecked by an orochi.

Jrock42_
10-10-2018, 12:39 AM
Orochi is very annoying character no doubt. When I started this game back late season 1 it was hard, I quit playing a few times, because I felt cheated. This game is far from forgiving on new players. So when my friends started playing I made sure to teach them everything I knew. I still struggle with a lot of things in this game, and it's still rage inducing sometimes. Everyone has stated exactly why orochi is irritating, and fast lights in general, but waiting for Ubisoft to do something about it will just leave you more frustrated, especially since they have already said light attacks are not going to change. So the best course of action is to try and learn to counter it the best you can. But that doesn't mean you have to do it alone. Having a veteran or someone who mains the character to practice against can make a huge difference. As far as orochi goes like it's been stated his lights in training are slower so training against a real person and having them spam lights is the best way to get used to it. There are people in this community who will help out if you ask. Raime is a good example, he's not a Ubisoft fan boy. I'm not trying to sound like I'm say get good. But I've been there I know exactly how you feel. This game sucks as far as teaching goes so look to other members of the community to help out.

GayForShugoki
10-10-2018, 05:48 AM
At the end of a match (in any mode, Ranked or otherwise), have the players take a vote. This vote will, like map selection, be majority based. This vote will be the ability to BAN a class/character from being picked next round. Not only will this force players to play more than one class, it can help mediate the effects of a poor rework or toxic meta. I'm sure tons of top-tier players would enjoy the ability to ban Conqueror once in a while and not have to deal with his 60+% winrates and overly-polarized matchups. The new players can vote to not deal with Orochis, Wardens, Kenseis, Nobushis, etc.

I apologise, but this suggestion is the worst I have ever seen for multiple reasons.

1. This will be abused by people who hold a grudge. Trust me, people will start banning their teammateís mains just to spite them. ďOh, you want to play Shinobi? Letís ban him!Ē I have experienced this enough in games with banning systems. I lost count how many people banned my main on League of Legends just to spite me.

2. Forcing people to play other heroes is pathetic. I donít want to play Warden, Lawbringer, Aramusha, Valkyrie, or whoever. I want to play the hero I want to play.

3. People will ban the low-tier heroes on principle. Warden, Kensei, Orochi, and Conqueror wonít be banned at all Ė it will be Shugoki and Aramusha.

4. This stops people learning how to fight those heroes. Canít beat a Warden? Just ban him. This doesnít educate people at all. You need to lose against heroes multiple times before you can start beating them.

5. Why is Nobushi on that list? Sheís hardly strong and is so easily predicted she may as well be a heavy with how slow and predictable her attacks are.

DeathByFluffles
10-10-2018, 01:57 PM
Banning systems have their flaws, but so does every solution. It may be abused, you are right. So you're saying we should ignore other problems people are abusing because of the fear they might abuse something new?

In addition to this, One-Trick-Ponies are bad for ANY game. Why? You either play one character you like after minimal testing and complain about characters you never play because you don't understand them or you develop a conceptual blindspot to faults with your main. You would be hard-pressed to get an Orochi main to admit they're part of a problem. Most of them just go to the forums and complain about the "Overpowered Nature of Blocking! Nerf Defense!" instead of playing the same character they HATE to fight.

It may not be elegant, but I think forcing players to have a wider pool of playable characters will quickly force new players to learn MULTIPLE characters. This will result in a more "educated" playerbase.

Daubenyfanclub
10-10-2018, 02:31 PM
I see an issue with a forced 'play this character or don't play at all' system. On paper, it should do everything you listed.

In reality.....everyone playing warden would just swap to valk, or orochi, or conq, etc. Most people who play orochi solely for light spam also SB with warden or spam two lights and the sweep on valk. That would do literally nothing and could just as easily backfire on those trying to get orochi and the like out of the picture for a game.

As for what you say on orochi, most of his issue with light spam isn't a PC issue due to technical limitations. 30 v 60 FPS accounts for this, but only slightly so. Most of it comes from a console's "reaction time" being roughly 10x longer (around 152 ms) compared to PC (which can be around 17 ms or so). It's not a problem with the character itself, rather how certain platforms currently handle those characters. Nerfing Orochi would only help the console crowd as those with midlling to high-end PCs would then be able to write orochi off as a laughing stock and the cycle would continue.

It's a problem, but for right now, there's no magic nerf or hotfix that'd solve the issue. Unfortunately orochi needs a few replacements in his kit. Side dodges, and running heavies aren't an issue (even visually, it just telegraphs his oncoming attacks faster and you not only get to easily block it, but you can oftentimes parry it). The real issue is how the lights are chainable and still deal that much damage. A damage reduction on lights would be a little better considering (for consoles, the PC crowd can block the guard swap lights sometimes) how often a triple light combo lands.

I'm not an expert, nor do I claim to be, but this is just my two cents on the matter.

Roseguard_Cpt
10-10-2018, 03:14 PM
@LostElegy
What platform do you play on? I play on PS4 and PC and would be more than happy to help you and your friends improve if you would like. My username should be the same on both, might have to check the PC one, this is my PSN name.

Knight_Raime
10-11-2018, 04:49 AM
@LostElegy

Sorry for the late reply. I don't have as much time to get on as I used to. I'll be replying to you like this because I don't want to create a massive wall of text with your reply plus my own. I apologize if that has caused you any extra effort.

~I largely skipped your comparison to Dark souls for two main reasons. The first being DKS has a lot more variables than for honor does. This is due to the fact that DKS doesn't have strict character limits due to it being a "build your hero rpg" esque game where as for honor is a hero game with strict rules. And second because while some things are similar between them there is enough of a difference between these two games let alone between each title that it would just be a mess of an argument. Your main point that i'm getting from this comparison is that souls is difficult but said difficulty feels fair. Where as the difficulty in for honor doesn't feel fair. I would have to agree to disagree.

There are plenty of things that are BS about how the souls series handles difficulty. Both on purpose and accidental. A purposeful example would be increasing boss health and damage. As that doesn't increase challenge in any meaningful way. You're not having to approach the fight in any different way than the first time. You just have to make less mistakes. And if you're already a vet you don't make much mistakes to begin with. So it's artificial difficulty. An accidental difficulty example would be hitboxes and AI unpredictability. From doesn't intentionally give certain bosses BS hitboxes to increase the difficulty. Nor do they program the AI to continually combo one time and then the next time not. But the RNG factor of said bosses and the hitbox issues both cause issues that make certain fights bad and difficult. But not in a good way.

~"So how is For Honor's difficulty unfair? First is the most obvious: Some characters have attacks with little to no telegraphing, such as Orochi's lights. They can strike from any angle, don't have to follow any specific pattern and make the player on the receiving end feel overwhelmed. When I lose, I want to be able to CLEARLY see why."

This is a fighter game thing. Some attacks are purposefully designed to be deceiving or hard to tell. This further requires a player to understand the kit on a deeper level and also their opponent. So they can make a better read. In orochi's case they purposefully have his lights and heavies have similar start up animations so you can't easily react to what he's doing. After all one of the main issues of for honor was how easily everything was dealt with. Obviously not everyone agrees on that being an issue. But enough did. And this is the direction we've been going for awhile. They're not going to go backwards and make the game easier again.

~"If a Raider kicks my butt, nothing he does is so fast that I can't understand what happened: "His slow, orange unblockable hit me? Okay, avoid that next time. I couldn't parry it, so I must have to dodge it!" This later becomes: "Okay, I've reached a point where I can easily dodge raiders if I play safe. Now I just need to master countering their slow attacks and take advantage of their weakness! They're slow enough and their attacks are easy to read, so I should be able to do this!" Raider, along with Nobushi, Shugoki, etc, are characters that feel fair to fight. Kind of like a boss fight! They don't do anything super crazy, their feints aren't unfair and fighting them is a true test of skill for both players."

You're glorifying Raider. Raider feels good to fight when you're a relatively newer player because he's a poor character. You're not actually being better than the raider player. He's having to do a lot more than you are because his character is worse than yours. Raider is a joke at mid to high level play because he's so easily reactable and readable. Nobushi and shugoki are also awful characters. Nobushi has no offense of her own and entirely relies on her broken hidden stance to even fight back. And goki has the ability to trade with anyone for potential one shots or a headbutt that always keeps your stamina down. This is a nightmare for any inexperienced player. In high tier he's reactable. And because high tier people can parry and read people well goki can't trade with anyone or fake anyone out. Meaning the cheap advantages his current kit has offer him nothing against better players.

~"Orochi, Kensei and others don't have this element of "fairness" in them. Orochi fails on all levels of being enjoyable to fight."

Actually Kensei is the poster boy in the competitive community for what hero design should be more like. This is because he has plenty of decent/usable mix ups against aggressive players/team fight situations. But everything he does is perfectly dealt with should you have decent reaction times and decent reading skills. He doesn't have anything oppressive like conq's fast forward bash or try directional 400ms lights. His opener called "pommel strike" is a good opener until you get high in skill. Then it's only a decent tool for near OOS/OOS play. And his dodge attack while being a great answer to a handful of mix ups and bash centric play it's easily baitable and parried. Kensei has to do a lot of reading on his opponents to be effective. He can't react to much. And the same goes with his opponents vsing him (to an extent.) Orochi doesn't feel enjoyable to some players because he's not easily dealt with without being relatively good at the game.
That's really just it. When you get good enough at the game all he really has going for him is his 400ms lights. But those are in combo. Meaning he generally has to whiff into them. This isn't a failure on his design as his kit works fantastically outside high tier play. It's simply a symptom of how poor the core mechanics are in the game. Because at the level that orochi is stuck to this practically everything else in the game is near useless as well.

~"Reputation DOES matter, but not in the way you perceived it. Mostly my fault for not being clear, but this is what I meant: Someone who has played Orochi long enough to have 30+ hours on him should know more than just mashing one button."

Nah. Because there is no guarantee the rep 3 orochi got to that rep in 30 hours. Challenges are stupidly easy to complete. And people who've been playing for awhile have a near endless amount of exp boosters due to the fact that you can turn salvage into a one match exp boost. Rep isn't a good indicator for anything, even time spent on the hero until you're way above rep 10.

~"This spirals into Renown 5+ Orochis that have no understanding of the game and get obliterated by other players. Their KDA, Win Ratio and enjoyment go into the gutter and they either quit the game altogether or have the desire to learn why. This. Is. Bad. DESIGN."

I already touched onto this. The game does a poor job of teaching players to begin with. And this isn't exclusive to light spam. Players who don't care about getting good will always find something they can abuse and abuse it forever until it doesn't work anymore. Yes games should try their best to avoid these situations. But it's practically impossible to prevent this from happening in any game. I would say that because light spam doesn't work outside low bracket on pc and mid bracket on console that it's not as harmful as you make it sound. Because at either bracket a player can do practically anything else that's even slightly good and do just as good if not better than light spam. If light spam/UB spam were actual design flaws they would be showing their ugly heads at top level play. Because the best players will tear your game apart and abuse anything they can to have an edge. That's competitive play. Because these tactics only work in a very specific section of the community I don't think it's a problem. Sure it's unfun for a decent portion of the community. But so is just about anything else they can't just easily deal with. It's all about perspective. And all the data/perspectives they've gathered basically statistically proves that things like light spam are not an actual big issue.

E1seNw0Lf
10-11-2018, 07:45 AM
The problem are the devs and how they see his role in the game. And here it is very sure to say that it has changed multiple times during development and he is still an experiment.
A very large amount of players let them know (on reddit & this forums) how they - the players - see this character and they all got basically ignored.

SangLong524
10-11-2018, 08:11 AM
i think rep can only say for almost certainty that the higher one get better gears so they can outlast and outdamage. Past rep 7 it means little.
I'm rep 302. The game must think I am a god of some kind as it saddles me with stupid level 2 bots and newbies.

guest-Nez6tBu0
10-12-2018, 11:01 PM
it is problem also on PC

Blitzwarrior771
10-13-2018, 12:40 AM
Ok I understand Knight, 1invicible attack is ok with a bit cool down but they chain attacks that we cannot escape . There is still many of us who donít use guard break . And if u think guard break is the answer well orochi is using it too and any other op characters beside being good offensive they still use guard break impossible to kill .

Erhanninja
10-15-2018, 12:21 PM
Iím really sick and tired of light attack spam in this game. Requires no skill whatsoever. Just smash light attack button.

Devs need to stop adjusting the game by top %1 players in the PC. What do Devs say? We want players to get better by guessing...so guessing is getting better. Imagine I throw a dice and guess right means Iím good at it. Crazy idea... we console players suffer from this majorly.

I used to think maybe Iím just bad then I spectate other players all my teammates get light spammed to death. I mean even if I initiate my attack first he hits me first. Literally just spam. I block I canít even attack he attacks again before me. Just do Kiai spam to death again. Doesnít even run out of stamina.

I donít mind dying to good skilled players but this is just cancer. This game used to be about skill and mind games. Now just who spams light attacks or throws more UB.

SangLong524
10-15-2018, 12:44 PM
While i agree that orochi isnt alright, i definitely cannot agree that it takes no skill to light. Heck, iíve been trying to light spam this whole time. They block and parry my lights so amazingly. Or is it my luck that i only run into maste blockers?!

Lord-Krake
10-15-2018, 12:56 PM
Here's thing you gents should really consider.

While I agree that Orochi might be pretty easy to deal with in the end and with a correct hero this is something you cannot really use as an argument. You can't really change heroes on the go so your stuck with the hero you have.

Second thing is the annoying factor in all of this. It really is annoying and for new players it might be a game breaker and this is a problem. Quite many is saying that the player base is quite small and lets face it if people don't want to keep playing the game when they are always faces with "cheesers" it kinda kills the game for the and they move on not even bothering to try the game out or learn to how to properly play against something.

And please don't blame me for pointing out how the human mind works. You just can't tell people to "get gud" like few people I know does, it wont work and the game will fail in the end.

Devils-_-legacy
10-15-2018, 01:10 PM
Second thing is the annoying factor of here. It really is annoying and for new players it might be a game breaker and this is a problem. Quite many is saying that the player base is quite small and lets face it if people don't want to keep playing the game when they are always faces with "cheesers" it kinda kills the game for the and they move on not even bothering to try the game out or learn to how to properly play against something.

And please don't blame me for pointing out how the human mind works. You just can't tell people to "get gud" like few people I know does, it wont work and the game will fail in the end.

This game has never been new player friendly has been this way since s1 and light spam gets less and less effective at the higher level of gameplay.

No it won't fail fh has reached another milestone recently(4/5days ago) 15 million players i dont see that as failing

Lord-Krake
10-15-2018, 01:14 PM
This game has never been new player friendly has been this way since s1 and light spam gets less and less effective at the higher level of gameplay.

No it won't fail fh has reached another milestone recently(4/5days ago) 15 million players i dont see that as failing

It doesn't really matter how many players there are if they don't play the game. Less active players means less income for the company witch leads to less support witch leads to salty small player base who no one really wants to deal with.

Devils-_-legacy
10-15-2018, 04:21 PM
It doesn't really matter how many players there are if they don't play the game. Less active players means less income for the company witch leads to less support witch leads to salty small player base who no one really wants to deal with.
Once again more people are playing then ever its no were near failing lol im not sure were your pulling this from otherwise we wouldn't be getting an expansion the smallest playerbase on fh is pc.