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Tyrjo
10-08-2018, 04:12 PM
If you aren't going to release the win matrix until in two months after the season has ended, don't bother with it at all. It needs to come out right after the season has ended. There is nothing more useless than OLD DATA.


Finally:

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-340641-16/state-of-balance-season-7

http://static2.ubi.com/comdevs/S7_1v1_WinRate.png

Siegfried-Z
10-08-2018, 04:41 PM
They said S7 stats gonna be released faster than S6 one.

Wait and see .. ;)

FredEx919
10-08-2018, 04:50 PM
We'll be releasing the next state of balance much sooner than the previous. We'll keep you all updated on the timing.

Tyrjo
10-09-2018, 09:34 AM
That is great news!

Charmzzz
10-09-2018, 10:08 AM
That is great news!

Do you... like... for real... believe this!? We heard that #soon months before the S6 Recap actually was released.

Alustar.
10-09-2018, 12:29 PM
Giving a vague answer with no estimated eta is just blatant stupidity. I'm going to laugh when they release it like a week before the time elapsed for season 6 and then go, "meh, but it was still released earlier than the last one!" Good job guys. Good job.

Tyrjo
10-09-2018, 04:23 PM
Do you... like... for real... believe this!? We heard that #soon months before the S6 Recap actually was released.

I want to believe.

Tyrjo
10-18-2018, 03:53 PM
Hopefully tonight on the den!

TheReaIDirtyDan
10-18-2018, 06:15 PM
yeah an actual time frame or any real eta would be nice

Tyrjo
10-19-2018, 04:54 PM
Nothing on the den, which kind of disappointed me. :(

KotoKuraken
10-19-2018, 08:13 PM
it would be smarter to release it at least as soon as the first or second week of Season 8.

With how people are talking about the previous state of balance, seeing how different the heroes are based on the devs' changes could show progress on fixing the state of balance

Tyrjo
10-25-2018, 03:37 PM
Tonight's den will be perfect.

TSCDescon
10-25-2018, 10:42 PM
Nothing from WD besides the event.

VolatileKnight
10-25-2018, 10:47 PM
Nothing from WD besides the event.

Exactly. No mention of player complaining about losing all progress they've made, nothing.

I get the perk system is a sore wound for them, but come on.

Vakris_One
10-25-2018, 11:07 PM
Exactly. No mention of player complaining about losing all progress they've made, nothing.

I get the perk system is a sore wound for them, but come on.
Who says it's a sore wound for them? Ubi said they would replace gear with perks and they did it. Job done. The only feedback that matters to them from this point on is how balanced the perks are. They won't be reverting back to gear and there won't be any steel/loot crate compensation.

CandleInTheDark
10-26-2018, 01:38 AM
Who says it's a sore wound for them? Ubi said they would replace gear with perks and they did it. Job done. The only feedback that matters to them from this point on is how balanced the perks are. They won't be reverting back to gear and there won't be any steel/loot crate compensation.

Another reason it isn't a sore wound is that between here and reddit reddit is the most readily militant part of the discussion community (not sure about steam, never used their forums), the part of the community where if something goes against the grain you get five posts a page on it and neither the main nor the competitive (the latter of which you would expect something on from this) has batted an eyelid. People like the poster above you can hijack feedback threads that people mostly leave a piece of feedback in and leave or completely unrelated threads like this one in search of an echo chamber all they like but the fact is the existence of perks is never going to be a hot button topic for the devs because as a whole people haven't made it one.

DefiledDragon
10-26-2018, 05:04 AM
The perk system isn't going anywhere. The game has been out for nearly 2 years now? It has a dedicated player base that have maxed out their builds. How do you get them to spend more money on steel? Reset the builds. Simples. Am I being cynical? Aye. Am I correct? Hmmmm.....

Tyrjo
10-26-2018, 07:03 AM
I feel there is a huge indifference from the devs in terms of the balancing. The reluctance to release the statistics in a speedy manner is evidence of this. They never talk about balancing on the Warriors Den, instead what we get is dwelling about cosmetics and lame jokes.

Charmzzz
10-26-2018, 07:18 AM
I feel there is a huge indifference from the devs in terms of the balancing. The reluctance to release the statistics in a speedy manner is evidence of this. They never talk about balancing on the Warriors Den, instead what we get is dwelling about cosmetics and lame jokes.

That's why I stopped watching it. And stopped playing for a week now. Marching Fire introduced so many bugs and the balance (esp. Stamina Management) got worse again.

SpaceJim12
10-26-2018, 09:50 AM
The perk system isn't going anywhere. The game has been out for nearly 2 years now? It has a dedicated player base that have maxed out their builds. How do you get them to spend more money on steel? Reset the builds. Simples. Am I being cynical? Aye. Am I correct? Hmmmm.....

Do you really think dedicated playerbase will spend money for perks now? I doubt it.=)

FredEx919
10-26-2018, 05:11 PM
Hey everyone, just wanted to let you all know that the latest state of balance blog is already in progress and will be released much earlier than the previous. The team is aware of your feedback in regards to things like balance and perks and we'll share any news we have related to those.

Tyrjo
10-27-2018, 08:05 AM
Thank you Fred!

Tyrjo
11-01-2018, 07:06 AM
Tonight hopefully!

Klingentaenz3r
11-01-2018, 01:28 PM
highly doubt it. Otherwise it would be up already on the blog

Melikethegames
11-05-2018, 01:36 PM
Exactly. No mention of player complaining about losing all progress they've made, nothing.

I get the perk system is a sore wound for them, but come on.

no people care its guy its comepte ban from formus LUL

Tyrjo
11-07-2018, 07:18 PM
Tomorrow hopefully!

KSI_TheMadKing
11-08-2018, 04:30 AM
Tomorrow hopefully!

Man do I love your optimism. I really hope they do.

Siegfried-Z
11-08-2018, 10:26 AM
Tomorrow hopefully!

Haha love the update :D

Illyrian_King
11-08-2018, 03:35 PM
We are still waiting ^^

Tyrjo
11-15-2018, 09:49 AM
Tonight! Sooner than last season!

ChampionRuby50g
11-15-2018, 10:14 AM
Tonight! Sooner than last season!

“Soon”

In all seriousness, we would be getting pretty close to the date last seasons was released. It’s already been a month since MF hasn’t it? Last one was around a month or a little bit longer if I recall right.

Siegfried-Z
11-15-2018, 10:36 AM
“Soon”

In all seriousness, we would be getting pretty close to the date last seasons was released. It’s already been a month since MF hasn’t it? Last one was around a month or a little bit longer if I recall right.

Yep. At least we use to discuss about old stats ^^

Tyrjo
11-22-2018, 06:23 PM
http://static2.ubi.com/comdevs/S7_1v1_WinRate.png

ArchDukeInstinct
11-22-2018, 06:32 PM
Anti-Conqs about to blow.

Siegfried-Z
11-22-2018, 08:17 PM
Anti-Conqs about to blow.

Instead i'm gonna learn Conq :D

Siegfried-Z
11-22-2018, 08:19 PM
Joke appart, i'm happy for my Valk :)

MuscleTech12018
11-22-2018, 11:27 PM
Does anyone actually believe this matrixes ? it's so easy to make them look like this game is sooo balanced :))

And suckers buy it without a problem :))

In case you can't understand a matrix like this, it clearly shows this game is super balanced, with a perfect ratio of 55-45, almost 50-50 which in pvp is GODLY ! :))))

Alustar.
11-22-2018, 11:29 PM
I don't really care about them a whole lot. I have issues with the state of balance focus being centered around 1v1.

Knight_Raime
11-22-2018, 11:47 PM
They're semi incorrect about Shinobi's rise. Stance switch fix was a nice indirect buff for him. But iirc his slide tackle having 0 recovery after initiating it was discovered last season. So that would be why he's rised in power. Mushu's story is entirely based on the extra damage buff he got. Most people are not aware that you can back dash on deadly feint animation to avoid the deadly feint mix up. Valk's rework being as high as it is either means people are really bad at establishing patterns from their enemy or people really caught on using her shield tackle to avoid mix ups. Not because her rework was amazing. (it was good but it still needs work.)

Not really happy that it's sounding like a damage buff is all pk is getting. it will help but that doesn't address her core issues that her rework missed out on. sigh. Also imo pulling from platinum is probably too low. they probably should only be looking at master and grand master. And even then i'm not entirely sold on using ranked data at all. imo they could have easily just looked at the top 1% instead of 2.5%.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-23-2018, 12:05 AM
Why top 1%? It would be best if they just use yours data lol

Knight_Raime
11-23-2018, 12:21 AM
Why top 1%? It would be best if they just use yours data lol

Because the data pool is too wide both with 2.5% and with plat and up.
The fact that some heros are performing as well as they should when they shouldn't be kinda proves this.

But then again the way they use their data isn't the best either. They primarily base things from their skill system. Which is 100% based on wins.
Which is flawed.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-23-2018, 12:41 AM
Because the data pool is too wide both with 2.5% and with plat and up.
The fact that some heros are performing as well as they should when they shouldn't be kinda proves this.

But then again the way they use their data isn't the best either. They primarily base things from their skill system. Which is 100% based on wins.
Which is flawed.

The wider the data pool, the more correct data is. FH has pretty pathetic player base so when you are talking about 1% , you are talking about how many active players? 100?

EvoX.
11-23-2018, 04:04 AM
The wider the data pool, the more correct data is.

Not universally true, especially relating to feedback about balance amassed from individuals with varying levels of experience, competency and knowledge. Players below a certain threshold are not suited to be a source for feedback pertaining to the game's balance and state of heroes, and PvP games' balance in general should always be based mostly on what the top players think - they often know the game way better than the developers themselves, they can use, in this case, the heroes to their full potential and they can assess how easy or difficult it is to counter other heroes at their full potential, thus making the most accurate and unbiased conclusion on who is trash, bad, mediocre, good, competitively viable, etc.

Anyway, Conqueror has lower win % than I thought he'd have. Aramusha being top 4 already speaks ill of the increased data breadth. And Centurion is pretty much solidifed as the 4th or 5th worst duelist in the game.

Gonna be a long wait...

Knight_Raime
11-23-2018, 04:05 AM
The wider the data pool, the more correct data is. FH has pretty pathetic player base so when you are talking about 1% , you are talking about how many active players? 100?

No. If the point of the data is purely just "for fun" then yes. Grabbing a wide pool is a good idea for this game because it's interesting to see where things fall despite no one ever really agreeing with each other. If the point of the data is supposed to help the devs in terms of finding problems and using it as a baseline to start looking to balance then in this case no. Because this data doesn't actually reflect the state of each individual hero let alone their match ups with others.

Easy example is aramusha's whole table. None of the people he has over a 50% win ratio against are match ups that are actually in his favor. But even if the devs were doing top 1% anyway the data is flawed because of the stats they base it on. Which is primarily their skill system.

So really any data they could possibly gather wouldn't be super accurate. It would just be MORE accurate the smaller the pool is (aka top 1%)

Charmzzz
11-23-2018, 11:20 AM
Oh boy, I just got my confirmation why I dropped the game 6 weeks ago.

1. Win Matrix released waaay beyond what was promised, again.
2. Conq still King of the Hill, nothing to be done about it. kkthxbye
3. PK still trash (at least they acknowledged it now). Seems like she only get's a Damage Buff instead of a real rework. kkthxbye
4. Kensei still King of 4v4, nothing to be done about it. kkthxbye

This team is so slow concerning balance. It takes them 3-4 months for every balance patch. That's unbearable for a PVP game imo. Gonna stay away until the next balance patch for sure.

SpaceJim12
11-23-2018, 11:39 AM
Well, now Valk on the same stage as Conq. I start to think that there are direct connection between softfeinted shield bash and win rate. Could we have this for every character now?=)

But if to speak seriously, I really can't get how some conclusion happend with the balance team in For Honor. 6 months ago they decided to nerf PK dmg instead of real rework. Now they want to buff her dmg...for what purpose? To get back in the same spot where they were 6 months ago?
Aramusha...it looks strange for me, how he became into spotlight right after all complaints about him on forum. Looks like devs try to show players "look, you just can't play on Ara". Same situation, that we had with LB.
Overall, so much things to fix in case of balance. And all just to crush Wu Lin domination on the current season Win Matrix.

Roseguard_Cpt
11-23-2018, 11:41 AM
They have a PTB (Public Test Build) on PC, so you'd think they'd maybe do crazy things like give small tweaks to damages and speeds to see how it'd affect things without even having to have it go into the live build and the approval process for console.
That said, I wish there was a PTB for console as that's where most of the playbase seems to be. I'm on another hiatus from the game as it has stagnated. Conq number one in duels, Kensei best in 4v4. One thing I did find interesting though was the sheer popularity of the Warden. 22.3% in duel with Orochi in second at 8.3%

Siegfried-Z
11-23-2018, 11:46 AM
"IMPROVING OFFENSE. Globally offense is still a bit too weak at high-level play. We’d like to see moves such as each characters’ “light openers” do a bit better of a job at actually opening up opponents."

Just saw this on your State of Balance Article and that's afraid me a lot. Offense is good ! But if well desgined ! Not a single player want more 400ms lights spam ! Please think about something else ubi... Bash, Mix up but no 400ms lights .. Tiandi for example is everything people don't want in the game.

Btw, these stats looks more logic than S6 one :

Kensei still shine in 4v4 but is average/low in Duel which after 30 reps with him is true i can confirm
Valk is very very sgtrong in duel but only average in 4v4 that's true too

An interesting thing is Musha. You can see he has a really low pickRate but a very good win ration in both mode. This shouw exactly most people just don't see his potential and how to exploit it.

PK DMG buff is a good thing ! If she's got back her dmg on Zone & Dash attack at least with the current mix up she would be better. But i believe She needs more.. for example a softfeint mix up on her zone with second hit UB ? Maybe it looks strong but PK really need an attack which can force a reaction and score high dmg to be viable in 4v4.

Good that you are looking to Shugo, but you should lookt at WL, LB and Nobu too.

And Hell are you going to fix Glad guard one day ? This is a very minor change and it would raise his win ratio a lot.

Roseguard_Cpt
11-23-2018, 11:56 AM
@Siegfried-Z
I'm right there with you about the fear of more 400ms lights. It's almost like if characters had more thoughtout kits with more/better options we wouldn't have to rely on sheer speed alone to beat the human reaction time. If characters had more softfeints and mind games matches could be more interesting with anything other than lightspam at all levels other than top level play, and at top level play with more options turtling would require much more effort and lead to an ultimately more skill based game as opposed to a reaction based natural selection.

Roseguard_Cpt
11-23-2018, 12:00 PM
My apologies if this comes across as salty, it is some, but at Ubi, not the users here. I have average human reaction speeds, and with how unusable defense is these days its frustrating. I play mostly on PS4 and have remapped my GB to R3 but sometimes I can't CGB and sometimes I swear I CGB by clicking light attack. After MF all defense options just feel off

Klingentaenz3r
11-23-2018, 12:32 PM
Also imo pulling from platinum is probably too low. they probably should only be looking at master and grand master. And even then i'm not entirely sold on using ranked data at all. imo they could have easily just looked at the top 1% instead of 2.5%.

That is what I thought about that at first as well. So Aramusha was not that surprising in that regard as in that skill level bracket people are often not as turtley as the higher ups and he has a good stance against assassins in general and a bad one against defensive ones. You can see that reflected in the table as well. Combined with a low pick rate people are just not used to face/handle aramusha. Also consoles and PC data combined once again. Can't make too much out of it. I can just say Aramusha needs something for turtles and some stamina improvements

Anyhow back to what I wanted to point out: I rewatched the Den and they acknowledged that they had to pull data from this plat including pool since otherwise they would not have enough samples of all characters overall. Meaning some characters, and you can imagine which I am sure, are not picked too often at higher level ranked play and hence not enough data. Note you need the same amount for each and every character otherwise the whole matrix's messed up.

as for the 4v4 data... top 4% is meh but I guess in order to compare developments due to the stance bug fix they wanted to keep that pool size.*shrug*

Siegfried-Z
11-23-2018, 02:40 PM
@Siegfried-Z
I'm right there with you about the fear of more 400ms lights. It's almost like if characters had more thoughtout kits with more/better options we wouldn't have to rely on sheer speed alone to beat the human reaction time. If characters had more softfeints and mind games matches could be more interesting with anything other than lightspam at all levels other than top level play, and at top level play with more options turtling would require much more effort and lead to an ultimately more skill based game as opposed to a reaction based natural selection.

Yep that's the point. We want more mix up, more mind game but no more 400ms lights which are too fast for Console.

400ms mooves are just : Frustrating first -> Removing skills -> Makes new players leave the game -> Boring to face as they are to use (where is the fun to be in Super Saiyan mode focus tryharding to block Roch, Nuxia or Tiandi lights ? Where is the fun in the other hand to play a game just for smashing Light button ?) Sorry i respect everyone choice but i would never understand how people can be attracted by lights spammy char ... except musha because at least he has to mix up to enjoy 400ms lights he can't just smash the button.

Just look at Roch rework. i believe all Roch mains would have choose to get the Tozen kick with a follow up than 400ms lights ...
Same for Wulin .. Excuse me but after all 400ms complains, they've released 4 char with 400ms mooves .. Even JJ as a Heavy and Tiandi as a Vanguard got one.. i just don't get it. It's like they don't want to invest some time and make the effort to really think about some nice and healthy solutions to improve offense in the game.

They don't have time for that but they've got some for stuff nobody care as New outfits, new emotes and so on because gess what it makes people spend steel ...

One day every Char gonna have 400ms mooves and this day no one would play FH anymore which is sad for such an amazing and lovely concept.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-23-2018, 11:28 PM
No. If the point of the data is purely just "for fun" then yes. Grabbing a wide pool is a good idea for this game because it's interesting to see where things fall despite no one ever really agreeing with each other. If the point of the data is supposed to help the devs in terms of finding problems and using it as a baseline to start looking to balance then in this case no. Because this data doesn't actually reflect the state of each individual hero let alone their match ups with others.

Easy example is aramusha's whole table. None of the people he has over a 50% win ratio against are match ups that are actually in his favor. But even if the devs were doing top 1% anyway the data is flawed because of the stats they base it on. Which is primarily their skill system.

So really any data they could possibly gather wouldn't be super accurate. It would just be MORE accurate the smaller the pool is (aka top 1%)

No data would be super accurate but there is problem in using small sample size, such as 1 or even 2.5% . If this was game played by milions, it would be ok. But overall population is very low if we talk about regular players, not those who play for a few weeks and than leave. So top 1% is how many players exactly? 200, less?

Now, let's say it's 200 just as example. How many of those 200 play with every hero? How many games we have per each hero if we are getting info from only 1%?

I honestly don't think there is enough games per every hero in top 1% and even in top 2.5% to get any useful numbers. It can happend that info for one popular hero is gathered based on thousands of matches played while some unpopular heroes maybe were used only in dozens of matches.

Ubi should release numbers on which matrix is based off , if they haven't already. What was the sample size, how many matches per hero etc. Without those numbers, matrix is useless in statistical sense.

NHLGoldenKnight
11-23-2018, 11:51 PM
Not universally true, especially relating to feedback about balance amassed from individuals with varying levels of experience, competency and knowledge. Players below a certain threshold are not suited to be a source for feedback pertaining to the game's balance and state of heroes, and PvP games' balance in general should always be based mostly on what the top players think - they often know the game way better than the developers themselves, they can use, in this case, the heroes to their full potential and they can assess how easy or difficult it is to counter other heroes at their full potential, thus making the most accurate and unbiased conclusion on who is trash, bad, mediocre, good, competitively viable, etc.

Anyway, Conqueror has lower win % than I thought he'd have. Aramusha being top 4 already speaks ill of the increased data breadth. And Centurion is pretty much solidifed as the 4th or 5th worst duelist in the game.

Gonna be a long wait...

I agree that there should be certain threshold but in caxe of For Honor, 1 or even 2.5% can't be that because of overall small sample size. We are talking about few hundred of players of which most of them stick to playing mostly few certain heroes. In post above, I expkain what is potential issue but in short-there is just not enough data per hero to make matrix any useful.

I would however disagree that game should be balanced on what only top players think. Firs of all, they can be biased like all of uus. If majority of top players are assassins, guess what? They will complain about turtle meta and suddenly we get 400ms lights. Also, Ubi is often testing balance by having top player play the game in perfect, almost laboratory like conditions. No latency, best equipment they can get and on top of that those top guys know each other very well. It makes a huge difference. Why not pull data for average latency and balance attack speed based on that? Because those are real conditions for majority of players.

Just as example, I am playing as goalie on NHL games and I was among top 10 goalies in the world for last season. But guess what? I don't think goalies should be balanced on what I have to say because playing constantly at the very top is easier in a way that you know opponents and their tendencies. So if EA approached me to ask about the balance I would say how everything is great, it should be harder for the goalies even. But in reality that simply isn't true and for a long time, goalies were simply broken. But just because it works for me, doesn't mean it works for vast majority of playerbase and game depends of that huge mid tier chunk of players. It doesn't depend on top percentage or the botton one. Mid tier and upper mid tier especially is what's count for game to be balanced, well received and for game to eventually survive.

Knight_Raime
11-24-2018, 09:33 PM
That is what I thought about that at first as well. So Aramusha was not that surprising in that regard as in that skill level bracket people are often not as turtley as the higher ups and he has a good stance against assassins in general and a bad one against defensive ones. You can see that reflected in the table as well. Combined with a low pick rate people are just not used to face/handle aramusha. Also consoles and PC data combined once again. Can't make too much out of it. I can just say Aramusha needs something for turtles and some stamina improvements

Anyhow back to what I wanted to point out: I rewatched the Den and they acknowledged that they had to pull data from this plat including pool since otherwise they would not have enough samples of all characters overall. Meaning some characters, and you can imagine which I am sure, are not picked too often at higher level ranked play and hence not enough data. Note you need the same amount for each and every character otherwise the whole matrix's messed up.

as for the 4v4 data... top 4% is meh but I guess in order to compare developments due to the stance bug fix they wanted to keep that pool size.*shrug*


See I didn't watch the stream. So if they had to pull from plat in order to have a reasonable size of players then they shouldn't have bothered pulling from ranked to begin with.


No data would be super accurate but there is problem in using small sample size, such as 1 or even 2.5% . If this was game played by milions, it would be ok. But overall population is very low if we talk about regular players, not those who play for a few weeks and than leave. So top 1% is how many players exactly? 200, less?

Now, let's say it's 200 just as example. How many of those 200 play with every hero? How many games we have per each hero if we are getting info from only 1%?

I honestly don't think there is enough games per every hero in top 1% and even in top 2.5% to get any useful numbers. It can happend that info for one popular hero is gathered based on thousands of matches played while some unpopular heroes maybe were used only in dozens of matches.

Ubi should release numbers on which matrix is based off , if they haven't already. What was the sample size, how many matches per hero etc. Without those numbers, matrix is useless in statistical sense.

Yes the current data in any form is useless to us in the community right now. We need more info or have them explain it better.