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View Full Version : orochi needs to be nerfed



beerbariandh
10-08-2018, 12:04 AM
their lights are far too fast and nearly unblockable on console. spamming is an issue and you cannot do anything but guess. duels aren't even fun because of that issue. why would you choose to make the game packed full of spamming and unbalanced heroes? seriously makes me want to stop playing.

DefiledDragon
10-08-2018, 12:13 AM
They have already addressed this concern in the latest state of balance. I've linked the full thing below but essentially they've said it's a "git gud" issue.

From the state of balance recap :

In presenting our data here, we want players to understand that “light spam”, while annoying, doesn’t actually yield overpowered characters. Learning to combat such offense is an important step for a player to improve their For Honor skillset. As our intention is to keep pushing 1v1 combat into a meta in which offense is more viable, it’s important that the community understand where we stand on this topic.

https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-us/news-community/152-335553-16/state-of-balance-season-6-recap

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-08-2018, 01:34 AM
Yea on console it's trash spam. I wish dominion had a section for characters without spam. It makes no sense why a heavy can be killed in 15 secs by unreachable lights.

Knight_Raime
10-08-2018, 09:46 AM
Spam is not a viable tactic at high level play even on console. It's not the games fault. It's your reactions.

iadvisoryi
10-08-2018, 11:47 AM
Spam is not a viable tactic at high level play even on console. It's not the games fault. It's your reactions.

I agree. But, you cannot ignore the fact of connectivity coming into play, I play on console, in training I can party every light that gets thrown, in matches I can normally parry the second light that is thrown if they're spamming. But if they play neutral and delay lights, delay safe heavies, it becomes a different battle. I personally think tracking needs to be tweaked so dodging becomes a viable window of opportunity for all characters and not just for ones with Dodge attacks. Also orochi is not broken, go play against a valkarie.

Sweaty_Sock
10-08-2018, 12:40 PM
Ignore the red marker, go on the char,

Knight_Raime
10-08-2018, 08:50 PM
I agree. But, you cannot ignore the fact of connectivity coming into play, I play on console, in training I can party every light that gets thrown, in matches I can normally parry the second light that is thrown if they're spamming. But if they play neutral and delay lights, delay safe heavies, it becomes a different battle. I personally think tracking needs to be tweaked so dodging becomes a viable window of opportunity for all characters and not just for ones with Dodge attacks. Also orochi is not broken, go play against a valkarie.

Training is bad because bots throw buffered attacks. Buffered attacks come out slower than they should be. It's a known issue that the devs were supposedly working on.
Delaying moves puts them at their correct speeds. So of course it's going to be harder to deal with. Valk isn't broken either. I play on console as well.

PepsiBeastin
10-08-2018, 08:57 PM
It isn't an orochi problem, it's a delayed light problem.

Devils-_-legacy
10-08-2018, 08:58 PM
Training is bad because bots throw buffered attacks. Buffered attacks come out slower than they should be. It's a known issue that the devs were supposedly working on.
Delaying moves puts them at their correct speeds. So of course it's going to be harder to deal with. Valk isn't broken either. I play on console as well.

They should of fixed that straight away I'm not even sure why it's still two tier of speeds between PvP and training

Knight_Raime
10-08-2018, 09:12 PM
They should of fixed that straight away I'm not even sure why it's still two tier of speeds between PvP and training

Bots automatically buffer. But people generally buffer their inputs as well. so it effects both bots and players. But yes it needs fixing.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-08-2018, 09:18 PM
Spam is not a viable tactic at high level play even on console. It's not the games fault. It's your reactions.
Sure but is the average person high tier? Obviously not. The game should cater to the average person not the Olympian. What's the point of playing a game if it only focused it's game play on a exclusive few? Take a game like basket ball... If the only way to score is to dunk then it wouldn't be that fun of a game for the average player.

Knight_Raime
10-08-2018, 09:29 PM
Sure but is the average person high tier? Obviously not. The game should cater to the average person not the Olympian. What's the point of playing a game if it only focused it's game play on a exclusive few?

The point of balancing from a top down perspective ensures that nothing is inherently broken (as the best players would be able to abuse it constantly) whilst still allowing room for players to grow and reach a higher tier of play. If pvp games only catered to casual play and ignored top tier play you'd have issues like a short skill gap. Which discourages players from wanting to invest into the game and become amazing at it. Since a player who's played 1000 hours would not be substantially better than a player who's only put in 10 hours.

High tier play in general isn't hard to attain. As all it takes to get there is decent match up knowledge, mostly aware of the mechanics/tech. Like delaying feints/soft feints, and being able to react block/cgb with a high degree of accuracy. And being able to parry when you need to. Not a lot of parrying is actually done in top tier. There is mostly abusing super safe tactics (like shinobi slide kick.) But I digress.

You don't need to have top of the line reflexes to be good at this game as a majority of the game is highly reactable. It's really more about knowledge of the game that's the big thing. Like one thing that seperates me (a well informed player) from an average player is knowing GB vulnerability timings. Because those play into feint games. Since both feint and GB are a big part of combat. It's not like learning that would be difficult either. as outside a few choice moves every move follows the 3 tiers of GB vulnerability times. And all this knowledge is readily available via the competitive sub or channels like "Freeze" and "alernakin."

I'm high gold low plat rank wise on console. I still occasionally eat a spammed move. But that doesn't really harm the overall experience for me. (if anything it's usually connection that does.)

MarshalMoriarty
10-08-2018, 11:42 PM
This absurd argument that light spam isn't a problem because the best players are fine against it... Light spam is not fun to use or play against and on console it is disproportionatly effective to how easy it is to use.

The worst thing however is that It actively encourages the bulk of players NOT to git gud as they say. Because it gives kills so freely that they feel no incentive to put any more effort in. And for those on the receiving end, they either quit completely or join the light spamming ranks.

Instead of just dismissing people's concerns in the worst possible way (ie telling them to git gud against this toxic, frustrating playstyle) they could remember the saying 'The customer is always right'. Console players don't like the absurd levels of light spam, SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT Ubi for Christ's sake!!!

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-09-2018, 12:21 AM
Yea I thought it was obvious sorry. I'll say it again. This game is like a basketball game where you can only dunk to score. Those that can dunk think it's challenging those that can't think the game is impossible. It's one dimensional to the general population. If you believe knowledge can beat light spam for the average player you are mistaken. Light spam was designed to combat the turtle meta at higher game play levels. This translates to it being a vaccine to cure "knowledge of the game" at lower levels due to its ease of use.

iadvisoryi
10-09-2018, 12:44 AM
Training is bad because bots throw buffered attacks. Buffered attacks come out slower than they should be. It's a known issue that the devs were supposedly working on.
Delaying moves puts them at their correct speeds. So of course it's going to be harder to deal with. Valk isn't broken either. I play on console as well.

Just because her player count is lower than other top tiers doesn't mean she's not busted. She basically took the role of prepatch pk. Except this time she has triple the options and is safe on a lot of her sb guesses. She's way too fast and on legsweep hit she gets a huge chunk of damage off. She doesn't need both. And it's not that delaying moves puts them at correct speeds, that makes no sense. Delaying just makes it harder for the opposition to guess where they are going next and when. Mostly harder to read on assassin's. Valk isn't on a shaman nerf needing level but still.

But let's look at who 100% needs more in their arsenal. Pk, aramusha, shinobi just needs a small health bump to make him more viable in 4v4s. Nobushi.

Knight_Raime
10-09-2018, 02:39 AM
This absurd argument that light spam isn't a problem because the best players are fine against it... Light spam is not fun to use or play against and on console it is disproportionatly effective to how easy it is to use.

The worst thing however is that It actively encourages the bulk of players NOT to git gud as they say. Because it gives kills so freely that they feel no incentive to put any more effort in. And for those on the receiving end, they either quit completely or join the light spamming ranks.

Instead of just dismissing people's concerns in the worst possible way (ie telling them to git gud against this toxic, frustrating playstyle) they could remember the saying 'The customer is always right'. Console players don't like the absurd levels of light spam, SO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT Ubi for Christ's sake!!!


You're being hyperbolic. You don't need to be anywhere close to the best players for light spam to not be effective. I'm not even regularly plat and light spam doesn't work against me. Yes things are harder on console (which I play just so there is no confusion,) but people blow the console excuse thing way out of proportion. The biggest problem with console isn't 30fps even. It's input delay. Which can be addressed a bit by using a wired controller with a decent monitor and a wired connection. You do have a good point about it not encouraging players to try other things. Unfortunately that's a side effect with how the core of the game is. However I would think that if someone was really dedicated to becoming better they'ed learn to shed certain tactics/bad habits far before they reach a level where it doesn't work for them. Also they're not being dismissive. They purposely held off on taking a stance with light spam until they could give us data. So you can be unhappy sure. But you can't factually claim them as being dismissive. And no. The customer is not always right. It's a dated saying and people only pull it when they feel entitled. Not for it's intended usage when it was first coined.


Yea I thought it was obvious sorry. I'll say it again. This game is like a basketball game where you can only dunk to score. Those that can dunk think it's challenging those that can't think the game is impossible. It's one dimensional to the general population. If you believe knowledge can beat light spam for the average player you are mistaken. Light spam was designed to combat the turtle meta at higher game play levels. This translates to it being a vaccine to cure "knowledge of the game" at lower levels due to its ease of use.


Sorry but no. Light spam is not an answer to the turtle meta. Because turtling is still very much a real thing. And light spam does not work at high level play. Making moves faster in general was to make things viable. Before they started increasing move speeds more than half the roster already had 500ms lights. And even up to this point very few heros have 400ms lights. Which are only unreactable when delayed. Which many players do not do at the level that light spam would be effective. You vastly underestimate how important knowledge is in this game. Until you can respect that you're going to be stuck. It's a bit odd that you'd bring up one dimensonal play but then prefer they didn't make these changes. Maybe you were fine with old for honor where things were easier. But enough people weren't. And the devs at the end of the day want the game to be able to cater to a competitive scene. So radical changes like these and many more have to be made. FH isn't going to go backwards. You gotta learn to live with this direction or move along.


Just because her player count is lower than other top tiers doesn't mean she's not busted. She basically took the role of prepatch pk. Except this time she has triple the options and is safe on a lot of her sb guesses. She's way too fast and on legsweep hit she gets a huge chunk of damage off. She doesn't need both. And it's not that delaying moves puts them at correct speeds, that makes no sense. Delaying just makes it harder for the opposition to guess where they are going next and when. Mostly harder to read on assassin's. Valk isn't on a shaman nerf needing level but still.

But let's look at who 100% needs more in their arsenal. Pk, aramusha, shinobi just needs a small health bump to make him more viable in 4v4s. Nobushi.

She's nothing like pre patch pk because pre patch pk had a busted damage model. Valk has an average to poor damage model. Old pk/current pk has the best option select zone in the game. Valk has nothing close to that. Pk has 400ms tri directional lights after her first light. Valk only has a 400ms light as her second hit in a combo and only up top. Her bash is hardly safe. She can make reads to counter options people use to punish her. But she can't do anything on reaction. Her opponents also have to make a read for how to handle her bash. So it's fair either way.

Leg sweep is just as fast as it was before she got reworked (which news flash it's not fast) except now the delay window is basically gone. So now it's even more predictable. (aided by the fact that it's stuck to a chain ender or a throw now instead of before where you could also get it after shield crush.) Added to the fact that the recovery on it is just as bad as it was pre rework. Meaning any hero even if they're OOS can easily dodge it and GB her. The 35 damage punish is totally justified considering how risky it is. And it ends her combo. Where as before she could continually loop her sweep.

I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. Of course it doesn't make sense. Because the game isn't functioning as it should. In a standard fighting game buffering moves isn't a hinderance. and delaying anything is purely a mind game. In for honor for whatever reason whenever you buffer a move it comes out slower than it's intended speed. As an example a 500ms light (as it's coded) when delayed comes out at about 467ms ish speed. This is accounting for the automatic 33ms the devs added as lag comp for any offensive action (which was done to address inconsistent attack speeds after time snap was removed.) However if you buffer the 500ms attack it comes out to be more like 555ms ish.

You can feel free to not believe me. But the devs already acknowledged that buffering makes moves slower and delayed moves are the correct speeds. They started looking into it around season 5's time. We haven't had word on it sense. But you can easily go look up someone like Freeze who does frame data for the community to see what buffer and delayed speeds are like if you need visual help.

Shaman is only an issue in 4's. and that's due to her bite. if you think she's a balance problem in duels you're waaaaay off. Valk is lower than shaman even in duels. I'm not going to comment on your list as that's another big write up and this post was about valk.

MarshalMoriarty
10-09-2018, 04:08 AM
Coming from someone who only plays Duel your arguments have no credibility Raime, as you've been told over and over again. The issue isn't just confined to single 1v1 encounters where you have the luxury of blocking it out. The majority play 4's and are against light spammers paired with bashers etc. Even in 1v1 encounters in these modes they don't the time to just sit back blocking for fear of being ganked. Add in the Feats like Kiai and the various stuns etc and its a completely different experience from the very controlled 1v1 that you use as your basis to discuss everything. Even though everyone continually tells you not to.

And yet again, I repeat that light spam is simply not fun. Console players HATE it and since the high level players do not want to keep light spam either, there is no earthly reason not to address this beyond a stubborn refusal to see the obvious. Taking a 'customer is always wrong' approach makes no sense here. People will never learn how to play properly if these crutches are not removed. Its as simple as that.

Knight_Raime
10-09-2018, 06:09 AM
Coming from someone who only plays Duel your arguments have no credibility Raime, as you've been told over and over again. The issue isn't just confined to single 1v1 encounters where you have the luxury of blocking it out. The majority play 4's and are against light spammers paired with bashers etc. Even in 1v1 encounters in these modes they don't the time to just sit back blocking for fear of being ganked. Add in the Feats like Kiai and the various stuns etc and its a completely different experience from the very controlled 1v1 that you use as your basis to discuss everything. Even though everyone continually tells you not to.

And yet again, I repeat that light spam is simply not fun. Console players HATE it and since the high level players do not want to keep light spam either, there is no earthly reason not to address this beyond a stubborn refusal to see the obvious. Taking a 'customer is always wrong' approach makes no sense here. People will never learn how to play properly if these crutches are not removed. Its as simple as that.

You know I completely get how it my feel like the devs and/or I are completely ignoring/dismissing your feelings. But that doesn't make it okay to do to others. I write my long replies because I actually care about the game and I actually want to discuss things with people. I don't assume i'm some amazing player. The only thing I actually could be considered feeling superior about is my knowledge on how the game works. And if my attitude ever comes off that way or anyway that feels like I don't care about someone else's feelings I apologize. But anyway, just because I do not play 4v4 doesn't mean i'm completely ignorant of a huge portion of the game. I do know a fair amount about how it plays. So in any case writing my opinion off simply because I choose to only play one mode is almost as bad if not as bad as someone writing your feelings off because of something potentially trivial.

Anyway. My primary counter to your "but in 4v4's" argument is Orochi. He's known as a light spammer by the community for the most part. Well according to the competitive players Orochi is ranked pretty low in terms of 4v4. Their primary reason for this is because he doesn't have anything to add to a team fight or gank. Arguably his only notable trait of having 400ms lights falls on deaf ears in 4's. Because you can external block them as a standard guard hero very easily. So with that in mind it would be easy for me and others to make the conclusion that "light spam" isn't any more potent in 4v4's. Because external guard.

As for the "bash spammers" comment here is something I bet you didn't know. I don't know when this was added in the game because, as we know, I don't play 4's. But if someone hits you with a stun. Be it a bash or hit stun from an attack. the normally guaranteed follow up is no longer guaranteed. Because they added deminished returns on bashes. An easy example. Say i'm warden fighting a conq and you're kensei. If conq hits me with his bash he normally gets a free light. But at the same time he goes for a bash you go for pommel strike. your pommel hits me first. Then conq's bash hits me. I can block your guaranteed light. If you want a better visual example i'd recommend "Freeze" on youtube. He recently did a video about hit stun stacking. Which basically shows that you can't layer stuns where ever they come from because the deminished returns kicks in and allows me to deal with the follow up attack. This basically means you can't stunlock someone to death with mindless spam. So even in this case spamming lights along side a basher wouldn't work. Because you have both deminished returns on stuns and external block working against you.

Fun has a place and time in discussions, this is not one of them. It's not fun to be cced in a game like overwatch. But CC exists to keep the power of moves in check. So yeah. Being light spammed isn't fun. That doesn't inherently make it a problem though. Also I really wish you wouldn't keep looping in the entire console base. Because not every console player feels the same as you. I sure don't. I would also be curious to know your basis on the claim of "high level players don't want to keep light spam either." As I regularly speak with tournament winners and top tier players and the only acknowledgement of "light spam" that I personally ever see is them stating it's a non issue. Or it's only a tactic that works on low skill players. Finally you've swung the other way with hyperbolic statements. The developers have neither always done what the community asks aka "the customer is always right" Nor have they ever refused to do everything we ask aka "the customer is always wrong." It's not black or white here. It's gray. Some things they agree with us on. Some they don't. They can't please everyone.

If someone uses light spam to crawl up the ladder ranked wise they will eventually reach players who do not die to this tactic. And they will be forced to abandon the tactic and try to get better. Or they will stick with it and constantly complain. Or just leave. You can't force players to do anything. If "light spam" was removed low skilled players would just find something else they want nerfed. They would find something else to abuse. Because no game is perfect. and trying to balance for bottom tier play first instead of top just removes skill gap. Which means player investment is pointless. Which would be fine in a game that wasn't intending to be competitive. But this one is. So while low tier play is important it's not what to balance around for this specific situation.

MarshalMoriarty
10-09-2018, 06:36 AM
I'll just stop you at 'Fun isn't relevent' because if you don't understand the absurdity of that statement and how it impacts on the average player then there's really no point in discussing this as you and Ubi completely fail to grasp the problem.

Your familiar brand of self absorbed rambling is as completely insufferable as ever. Yet again you try to use volume of words to avoid the issue. Namely that your characterisation of what it like to face light spam comes from the controlled environment of Duel and is therefore not representative of the majority and their experiences against light spam. And that its the pressure of light spam and bashes that is the issue. It forces a frenzied pace that puts people off and makes the game seem unapproachable.

And as for the high level players, you misunderstand my point. Which is that since they have no interest in keeping light spam (i.e they don't actively want to keep it or see it as vital for the health of the game or their 'scene') there should be no reason not to address it. Because who wants this light spam beyond casuals and trolls? Compared to all the voices pointing to it as a problem? If the average players despise it to the point of ragequit and the high level players don't care either way, why the resistance to doing something about it?

Makkng sure people are having a good time is ALWAYS relevent. Especially when so many bring up light spam as the main reason they aren't enjoying the game. If you or Ubisoft had even a shred of common sense you would know this. Its very easy to grasp which is why so many shout themselves hoarse in the optimistic belief that even terminally absorbed specimens like you and Ubi's devs will finally get it. Its true that they haven't adhered to 'The customer is always right' - and look at the state the game has been stuck in because of it!

And you say they don't operate under 'Customer is always wrong'? So they increased the rewards on the modes to match Dominion? They tackled light spam? They didn't leave Cent untouched for a Season and a half? PK for 5 seasons? They didn't leave it a YEAR to bring in dedicated servers? The list goes on and on. What planet are you living on, man? Their default attitude is to try and wait things out. Getting them to admit problems, not walk back on those admissions and fix them is an excercise in utter frustration. Especially given their already infamous comments on light spam in that SOB.

Knight_Raime
10-09-2018, 06:53 AM
I'll just stop you at 'Fun isn't relevent' because if you don't understand the absurdity of that statement and how it impacts on the average player then there's really no point in discussing this as you and Ubi completely fail to grasp the problem.

Your familiar brand of self absorbed rambling is as completely insufferable as ever. Yet again you try to use volume of words to avoid the issue. Namely that your characterisation of what it like to face light spam comes from the controlled environment of Duel and is therefore not representative of the majority and their experiences against light spam. And that its the pressure of light spam and bashes that is the issue. It forces a frenzied pace that puts people off and makes the game seem unapproachable.

And as for the high level players, you misunderstand my point. Which is that since they have no interest in keeping light spam (i.e they don't actively want to keep it or see it as vital for the health of the game or their 'scene') there should be no reason not to address it. Because who wants this light spam beyond casuals and trolls? Compared to all the voices pointing to it as a problem? If the average players despise it to the point of ragequit and the high level players don't care either way, why the resistance to doing something about it?

Makkng sure people are having a good time is ALWAYS relevent. Especially when so many bring up light spam as the main reason they aren't enjoying the game. If you or Ubisoft had even a shred of common sense you would know this. Its very easy to grasp which is why so many shout themselves hoarse in the optimistic belief that even terminally absorbed specimens like you and Ubi's devs will finally get it.

Considering you keep resorting to down talking me and ignoring any actual points i've made to further barrage me with insults means I just won't reply to you after this and continue to keep you on my ignored list. I did try to have a decent discussion here. You just didn't want to listen. But i'll address you one final time.

"Fun isn't relevent"
"Makkng sure people are having a good time is ALWAYS relevent."

I believe I specifically stated: "Fun has a place and time in discussions, this is not one of them." Which means fun is something to consider. But it is not the end all be all. So cherry picking what I stated to make it better fit your weak argument isn't doing you any favors.

"Your familiar brand of self absorbed rambling is as completely insufferable as ever. Yet again you try to use volume of words to avoid the issue."

I didn't avoid anything. I directly responded to your comment about 4v4's as it seemed like you were inferring that in 4v4's light spam was potent. To which I responded. No because external block. And no because hitstun's have deminished returns. Which allows someone to block follow up attacks a bash/stun would have normally guaranteed. You either didn't read this or chose to ignore this because it's a direct counter to your point and you had nothing to contest my point. Thus you resorted to personal attacks.

You stated in your previous point: "the high level players do not want to keep light spam either" And correct your statement to "they don't actively want to keep it or see it as vital for the health of the game or their scene." I asked you for proof on where competitive players has made a comment anywhere close to "we don't want light spam in the game." You did not give me any proof of this. Nor did your corrected statement address my claim of proof. This leads me to believe you're making a statement be it from thin air or how you believed you understood something from a competitive player. Since you can't give me proof on something remotely close to your claim there is no more to be discussed about this point.

Won't even touch the last paragraph as it's really nothing but insults and fluff. Anyway. Peace out man. Hope you find enjoyment somewhere. Have a nice day/night.