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View Full Version : Val vs conc treatment



CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-04-2018, 09:34 PM
"Instead of nerfing the strong tools, we prefer to continue to improve the weak tools."
I realize I'm taking this out of context however why is it OK for conc to keep his bash and nearly all of vals shield tackle kit is taken away?
Isn't that in contrast to what you used as an excuse for not nerfing concs bash?

ArchDukeInstinct
10-05-2018, 02:37 AM
Last I checked Conqueror lost things during his rework so how is it hypocritical for Valkryie to lose things for her rework?

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-05-2018, 03:39 AM
Last I checked Conqueror lost things during his rework so how is it hypocritical for Valkryie to lose things for her rework?
What did conc loose?

ArchDukeInstinct
10-05-2018, 05:09 AM
What did conc loose?

The most obvious example would be passive superior block.
He also lost the 50/50 between shield crush and guard break against OOS opponents because shield crush doesn't guarantee anything anymore.
Shield bash riposte is gone, it was a heavy form of the shield bash from full block stance which guaranteed heavies. Shield bash mixup doesn't guarantee heavies anymore even though it's a highly telegraphed 700ms move that almost never hits to begin with.
And the killer blow being the delays imposed by full block stance now. It takes nearly half a second to even start any follow ups. You used to be able to get even guard breaks out pretty fast by changing guard and then changing it back immediately to avoid inputting a shield riposte. How ironic is that? Now it takes forever to do anything and all we got in return was the ability to do flail uppercut. You gotta hope your opponent doesn't know they can just walk backwards while they do their parry attempt and counter both options in the heavy/full block "mixup" easily.

And that's why forward dodge shield bashes aren't being nerfed. Because quite frankly, it's the only good offense Conqueror got from the rework while he lost big time on the feign front. Charged heavies? Terrible. Shield uppercut? Only a bandaid for Conqueror not being able to feign into GB quickly enough.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-05-2018, 09:16 AM
Fair enough I stand corrected. Though it makes me wonder why conc and val were Nerfed in their reworks.

UbiInsulin
10-06-2018, 01:37 AM
This doesn't tell the whole story, but Valk was initially doing better (https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en-ca/news-community/164-335553-16/state-of-balance-season-6-recap) post-rework:



Valkyrie
Valkyrie has been bottom of the pack for a while (45% Win Rate in Season 5 and Season 6). She just received a rework in Season 7 and while it’s too early to make a strong note about where she stands, the earliest indicators were that it had a positive effect on her viability. The early data had her at 54% Win Rate, below Conqueror but above the rest of the pack. We’ll see where she will be as more data comes in - we are still keeping a close eye on the character.

Knight_Raime
10-06-2018, 03:08 AM
I wouldn't consider valk's thing being nerfed. Rather it's purpose changed. Old shield tackle was a team fight harasser tool. New shield tackle is a dodge/counter tool.

Velentix
10-06-2018, 04:26 AM
I think the real problem here is that they claim to want to buff other tools to deal with his bash, but I have yet to see any of that happen for the past couple MONTHS, heck just ask a WL how well he can punish a conq (despite them being the same class). as far as valk goes, lets compare her full block stance to conqs shall we? (yes I get he's a heavy and she's a hybrid, but honestly conqs speed is assassin level nullifying her one possible advantage) Her shield rush can block all regular hits, but once you release it you can be hit out of it easily enough and end up just wasting a lot of stam and losing health for no gain, if you do hit then you get a light; meanwhile conqs full block guarantees an unblockable heavy, something that the warlord can't do (once again despite being the same class). the problem is that conq makes you afraid to attack, or counterattack, while being able to heavily punish turtles with his bash. now if every char was at this level you'd have an interesting game, but they aren't even close. Imo I'm fine with nerfing strong tools, until you can come up with a way to deal with those tools, then just revert the nerf and hopefully you have more balanced gameplay.

ArchDukeInstinct
10-06-2018, 06:07 AM
I think the real problem here is that they claim to want to buff other tools to deal with his bash, but I have yet to see any of that happen for the past couple MONTHS

Agreed, the devs need to really start doing more frequent balance updates.


as far as valk goes, lets compare her full block stance to conqs shall we? (yes I get he's a heavy and she's a hybrid, but honestly conqs speed is assassin level nullifying her one possible advantage) Her shield rush can block all regular hits, but once you release it you can be hit out of it easily enough and end up just wasting a lot of stam and losing health for no gain, if you do hit then you get a light; meanwhile conqs full block guarantees an unblockable heavy

I'm not saying that Valkyrie's shield tackle should or should not guarantee more than a light, however the two moves guaranteeing different things is not exactly unexpected when they are very different to begin with. One is purely predictive defense which can't do anything if nobody throws a blockable attack while the other lets you charge into an unblockable whenever the player chooses.


something that the warlord can't do (once again despite being the same class)

Warlord can already get a zone off heavy parries, doing 25 damage which isn't far off and doesn't require any prediction to achieve.


then just revert the nerf and hopefully you have more balanced gameplay.

"Hopefully"