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View Full Version : Peacekeeper mains: Summarize what's wrong.



Jazz117Volkov
09-28-2018, 12:36 PM
It might be useful, at least on this forum, to get all the opinions in one place. The general consensus is "Peacekeeper is not in a good spot", and that's a point I agree with, and as I've said, I didn't need a stat-sheet to know that. However, I am not a PK main so my insight into why she's so weak right now is limited. However, I'll still share my impressions.

A) Her bang for buck is atrocious; she burns through stamina and doesn't really get anywhere. B) "Bleed damage" as the foundation of her kit is a mockery to the incentives laced into the For Honor combat system; at it's best, as a mechanic, it just doesn't work very well (Warden has a feat that directly counters it), and at worse (most commonly) no one really wants to use it as their primary source of damage.

To go a little further into that second point; the For Honor gameplay loop is built from a network of connecting mechanics that escalate in effectiveness relative to your skill level--feinting, timing, speed, damage, spacing, etc.--and climax in the execution of your opponent. Peacekeeper deviates from the incentivized path in the name of "bleed damage". It took me two minutes with the rework to see that getting executions with the character was a chore, and on my following visit to the forums this concern was validated by a number of complaints saying exactly the same thing. To which Ubisoft responded with "we're not seeing this as a concern", and that's all sorts of unacceptable but that's a whole other conversation that reaches from finance to game design. Back to Peacekeeper.

I have a few thoughts on what could fix her kit, but first to hear from those with more experience.


EDIT

Summery so far:
- Low physical damage, particularly on heavies.
- Bad chains. Too short and heavies and soft-cancels end chains instead of beginning new ones.
- Dodge attacks are bad. Low damage and easily blocked or dodged, and long recovery makes them vulnerable to guardbreaks.
- Bleed has no utility. Both Shaman and Nobushi get some sort of advantage when their opponent is bleeding.
- Her deflect does nothing useful: doesn't start chains or branch into effective mix-ups.
- Her guardbreak only guarantees bleed damage, i.e. it's hot garbage.

The_B0G_
09-28-2018, 01:09 PM
I don't play her but she seems to be like a pre-rework Valk or pre-rework HL, tons of effort, with little damage to show for it. Time to kill with them was much longer than with others, you could outplay others regularly and still lose.

PK was too strong before, but they over did her nerf/rework.

BlowHard74728
09-28-2018, 01:33 PM
As you have said she relys to heavily on bleed and her damage output without bleed is too low. She needs a personal benefit from bleed if it is going to be her main damage output. Ive seen an idea from someone on the forum that i agree with.
Either have the opponent do reduced damage while bleeding or have it dip into their stamina supply. Maybe even let it cost less stamina for her to attack while the opponent is bleeding.
Her stamina costs are to great for her to do what needs to be done in higher levels.
She needs her damage numbers buffed. Not like they were before but no where near where they are now. I recommend some where around 30-35 heavy damage from neutral. Without the dagger follow up.
Of course if she were to have a benefit from bleed it cant be as easy as it is to bleed an opponent. Remove her triple stab from guardbreak and replace direction a free heavy from any direction.
Now her dagger cancel. I feel that her recovery on a dagger cancel is too long.

An opponent shouldn't get a free GB. Give her enough time to counter a GB but her recover should be long enough to be punished. Just not as severe as a GB.

Charmzzz
09-28-2018, 01:59 PM
- Her Chains are short and as soon as you weave in a Heavy - the Chain ends.
- She lacks a decent opener.
- No Hyperarmor
- No Unblockable
- No variable timing on soft-feinted GB's and Dagger cancels.
- Her Light's and Heavy's deal too low damage.
- Her Zone is the weakest hitting in the game while consuming half her Stamina (yeah, it is the fastes, and a very good Option Select, I know).
- Her Dodge-Attacks hit like a wet noodle and are vulnerable to GB's and several mixups (HL Kick/Grab), in comparison to other Dodge-Attacks they are the worst in the game right now. They do not start a Chain either.
- Her recovery after whiffs is insanely high for an Assassin (Conq and Warden in comparison, a Heavy and a Vanguard, have better recoveries...).

One thing about Bleed: when Marching Fire releases the Debuff Reduction will be gone. That is a buff for all Bleed Heroes, but it won't be enough for PK to be competitive again.

I am so disappointed by the Blog Post, not in the mood to suggest something about PK. How they talked about LB being "fine" and they would "closely watch PK" for another half-season upset me too hard. And I don't even play LB. Their attitude, knowledge about the game and pace of balancing disappoints me to the highest possible extent.

Goat_of_Vermund
09-28-2018, 03:12 PM
Charmzzz summarized most problems, but I link my very long, mostly ignored topic with problems and multiple detailed rework suggestions. Watch it if you'd like.

https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1923767-Peacekeeper-readjustment-suggestion

GayForShugoki
09-28-2018, 03:35 PM
- Her Chains are short and as soon as you weave in a Heavy - the Chain ends.
- She lacks a decent opener.
- No Hyperarmor
- No Unblockable
- No variable timing on soft-feinted GB's and Dagger cancels.
- Her Light's and Heavy's deal too low damage.
- Her Zone is the weakest hitting in the game while consuming half her Stamina (yeah, it is the fastes, and a very good Option Select, I know).
- Her Dodge-Attacks hit like a wet noodle and are vulnerable to GB's and several mixups (HL Kick/Grab), in comparison to other Dodge-Attacks they are the worst in the game right now. They do not start a Chain either.
- Her recovery after whiffs is insanely high for an Assassin (Conq and Warden in comparison, a Heavy and a Vanguard, have better recoveries...).

One thing about Bleed: when Marching Fire releases the Debuff Reduction will be gone. That is a buff for all Bleed Heroes, but it won't be enough for PK to be competitive again.

I am so disappointed by the Blog Post, not in the mood to suggest something about PK. How they talked about LB being "fine" and they would "closely watch PK" for another half-season upset me too hard. And I don't even play LB. Their attitude, knowledge about the game and pace of balancing disappoints me to the highest possible extent.

I agree with pretty much all but the hyperarmour. No assassin should have it. It's stupid.

Roseguard_Cpt
09-28-2018, 04:21 PM
I might suggest swapping PK's Bleed Stacks with Nobushi's Way of the Shark. While I adore the extra damage on my Nobu, being able to bleed my enemy more will actually allow me to have pressure on them. Pk on the other hand just needs a damage buff.

Charmzzz
09-28-2018, 04:32 PM
I agree with pretty much all but the hyperarmour. No assassin should have it. It's stupid.

You misunderstood my post. I dont want PK to have it, it was just a list of why she is in such a bad state compared to others.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
09-28-2018, 07:50 PM
Most reworks added to their heroes, expanding their moveset and capabilities. Not much if anything was taken away from them without being replaced in some way (avoiding the nobushi issue here as idk much of her state atm). All that was given to peacekeeper were slightly better although still extremely react-able soft-feint options and a bleed stack (which does not work for consecutive GB's) This is somehow supposed to be compensation for ALL openers getting slapped with a nerf, bleeds getting a tone down, and the normalization of dodge mechanics which had the most impact on PK. IMO the dodge mechanics were enough of a nerf as in the same way turtles avoided taking damage via blocking and parrying PK could easily out-space and dodge through attacks better than any other hero i think. With mobility removed she only has her lights which are now overtaken by orochi's new moveset and a fast area that does not deal enough damage to warrant that much stamina.

What we want are options. Remove the bleed and give us some chains that dont involve starting with a light, a UB to maybe force a reaction in the same way glad. sham. and bers. can, or maybe just remove the time and direction lock on the heavy feints so that it can finally be as viable of an option as twas originally intended. Kensei can side light, shaman can light in any direction, IDK why does the first character that had a heavy-light feint (although extremely useless as it was) now have the weakest version of it.

KotoKuraken
09-28-2018, 09:07 PM
My opinion on why the PK is not good:

Short version: She lacks a kit with countering options

Long version:
-She doesn't do enough damage. Most of her damage is in the form of bleed, which means not only do you have to wait for your opponent to die long after you should've killed them, but they also get to cleanse any and all bleed damage if they use any sort of healing (such as Shugo hug or Shaman heals even in duels)
-She has really slow heavies that, again, don't do a lot of damage. I feel like if her heavies were sped up and kept at the same damage, that'd be quite nice. Doesn't make sense for an arming sword to be as slow as a great axe, especially for such low damage
-She lacks an opener. She is the one and only hero in the game that lacks an unblockable or bash or any sort, so she has zero pressure for opponents who simply block. Even on console, people can actually block light spam, with or without the static guard. I would know. I'm on console
-She lacks actual countering tools aside from her deflect, which comes standard on all assassins anyways. But she is specifically a counter attacker. Maybe she can have some sort of superior light attack since she is armed with a sword and parrying dagger
-Her soft feints can only come out after 600ms, and the bleed softfeint can only come from top. This means they are incredibly reactable. Cent and Shaman don't have this kind of limitation on softfeints, and Shaman can even dictate the direction of the softfeint bleed
-Her softfeint bleed is a chain finisher. It would be much better if this counted as the beginning of another chain instead of just ending it. Right now, it's more beneficial to just hard feint for more damage and more unpredictability, whether it is a normal light or a zone

DefiledDragon
09-28-2018, 09:39 PM
She lacks an opener. She is the one and only hero in the game that lacks an unblockable or bash or any sort

https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42758766_10156776194569772_2249903332220993536_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&oh=ff16d81947e7e17b80dd695fc1d1cd14&oe=5C541D48

KotoKuraken
09-28-2018, 09:51 PM
https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/42758766_10156776194569772_2249903332220993536_n.j pg?_nc_cat=103&oh=ff16d81947e7e17b80dd695fc1d1cd14&oe=5C541D48

Orochi has an unblockable. His deflects are both unblockables. PK doesn't even have an unblockable on her deflect. Plus, Orochi has both Storm Rush and Riptide to actually counter with, since he's a counter-attacker

DefiledDragon
09-28-2018, 10:39 PM
Orochi has an unblockable. His deflects are both unblockables. PK doesn't even have an unblockable on her deflect. Plus, Orochi has both Storm Rush and Riptide to actually counter with, since he's a counter-attacker

True, but it's not an opener.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
09-28-2018, 11:20 PM
Pk was fine before the nerf/rework. They are purposely making the game unbalanced. Think about the lazy reworks. All this time and they fart out crap. They get a weekly paycheck to twiddle their thumbs. Balance team... What a joke. What happens to fire fighters when there are no more fires to put out? They get fired....get it!

KotoKuraken
09-29-2018, 12:27 AM
yea, if they treated PK the way they're treating Conq right now, they would have focused on leaving PK alone and tried buffing everyone else. Instead they nerfed everything about her, simply because "the players asked for it". What I really hate though, is it seems like they only went with the changes people asked for instead of actually trying out/testing out those mechanics.

Even upon the reveal of the "rework", everyone could see it would destroy her completely and lead her to the bottom abyss. Didn't need a whole season to figure that out.

Knight_Raime
09-29-2018, 07:33 AM
- Her Chains are short and as soon as you weave in a Heavy - the Chain ends.
- She lacks a decent opener.
- No Hyperarmor
- No Unblockable
- No variable timing on soft-feinted GB's and Dagger cancels.
- Her Light's and Heavy's deal too low damage.
- Her Zone is the weakest hitting in the game while consuming half her Stamina (yeah, it is the fastes, and a very good Option Select, I know).
- Her Dodge-Attacks hit like a wet noodle and are vulnerable to GB's and several mixups (HL Kick/Grab), in comparison to other Dodge-Attacks they are the worst in the game right now. They do not start a Chain either.
- Her recovery after whiffs is insanely high for an Assassin (Conq and Warden in comparison, a Heavy and a Vanguard, have better recoveries...).

One thing about Bleed: when Marching Fire releases the Debuff Reduction will be gone. That is a buff for all Bleed Heroes, but it won't be enough for PK to be competitive again.

I am so disappointed by the Blog Post, not in the mood to suggest something about PK. How they talked about LB being "fine" and they would "closely watch PK" for another half-season upset me too hard. And I don't even play LB. Their attitude, knowledge about the game and pace of balancing disappoints me to the highest possible extent.

Some of these points yes. Some of these points though. No.

She doesn't need HA. And the only reason she'd need an unblockable is due to external block situations. But because she can soft feint into GB from various parts in her combos she doesn't need it. Because she either gets the GB which sets things up for her team or they tech her GB and people hit the person during that animation. Her zone is balanced for what it is. Conq only has a good recovery if he did a bash. His empty dodge recoveries are bad. and warden's only good recovery is his forward dash. his side are bog standard. Oh and practically no one has variable timing on soft feints anymore. They standardized that for everyone. You can still delay them though just like everyone else for max effect.

Anyway. to add on here a bit.

-Her dodge attacks are bad compared to most other assassins. This is because her dodge attack has to be done 300ms into her dodge or later. (glad too.) meaning it can't be delayed to counter bash mix ups like zerk and rochi can.

-Her damage profile is abysmal even when considering bleed. Particularly her heavies.

-Dagger follow ups are chain enders. Meaning she is effectively a passive assassin. (ironic considering how safe she was made her a passive hero. and the rework didn't address this.)

-Bleed is just extra damage. Versus every other hero who has bleed in the base kit where it also provides a unique kit interaction of some kind.

-Deflect is functionally useless for her. Again compared to all other deflects hers is just boring damage.

-she can't get a heavy on GB. Forcing her to land a dodge attack for an execute. And we've already been over how bad her dodge attacks are.

Think that basically covers it.

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
09-29-2018, 11:04 AM
Some of these points yes. Some of these points though. No.

She doesn't need HA. And the only reason she'd need an unblockable is due to external block situations. But because she can soft feint into GB from various parts in her combos she doesn't need it. Because she either gets the GB which sets things up for her team or they tech her GB and people hit the person during that animation. Her zone is balanced for what it is. Conq only has a good recovery if he did a bash. His empty dodge recoveries are bad. and warden's only good recovery is his forward dash. his side are bog standard. Oh and practically no one has variable timing on soft feints anymore. They standardized that for everyone. You can still delay them though just like everyone else for max effect.

Anyway. to add on here a bit.

-Her dodge attacks are bad compared to most other assassins. This is because her dodge attack has to be done 300ms into her dodge or later. (glad too.) meaning it can't be delayed to counter bash mix ups like zerk and rochi can.

-Her damage profile is abysmal even when considering bleed. Particularly her heavies.

-Dagger follow ups are chain enders. Meaning she is effectively a passive assassin. (ironic considering how safe she was made her a passive hero. and the rework didn't address this.)

-Bleed is just extra damage. Versus every other hero who has bleed in the base kit where it also provides a unique kit interaction of some kind.

-Deflect is functionally useless for her. Again compared to all other deflects hers is just boring damage.

-she can't get a heavy on GB. Forcing her to land a dodge attack for an execute. And we've already been over how bad her dodge attacks are.

Think that basically covers it.

....and a pony

Jazz117Volkov
09-29-2018, 02:11 PM
I updated the OP

Charmzzz
09-29-2018, 03:53 PM
Some of these points yes. Some of these points though. No.

She doesn't need HA. And the only reason she'd need an unblockable is due to external block situations. But because she can soft feint into GB from various parts in her combos she doesn't need it. Because she either gets the GB which sets things up for her team or they tech her GB and people hit the person during that animation. Her zone is balanced for what it is. Conq only has a good recovery if he did a bash. His empty dodge recoveries are bad. and warden's only good recovery is his forward dash. his side are bog standard. Oh and practically no one has variable timing on soft feints anymore. They standardized that for everyone. You can still delay them though just like everyone else for max effect.


I don't want her to get HA or UB. The list was, as I said earlier, just a "State of PK" thing. And imo it is worth mentioning that she lacks all those fancy extras other Heroes have or got with their rework.

One more thing:
- No undodgeable Attack either

Helnekromancer
09-29-2018, 07:52 PM
Let me get a Heavy of any kind off a successful GB? I'm fine with kidney stabs but sometimes I want to execute someone.

I can not get a top nor side heavy from a succesful GB.This is very frustrating because it's the only thing holding me back from buying Executions for Peacekeeper. There are alot of cool ones but I'm just going to bleed my opponent out 95% of the time or better yet someone takes the kill away from me because bleed damage ticks are slow, so slow the enemy can still kill me.

DefiledDragon
09-29-2018, 09:14 PM
Let me get a Heavy of any kind off a successful GB? I'm fine with kidney stabs but sometimes I want to execute someone.

I can not get a top nor side heavy from a succesful GB.This is very frustrating because it's the only thing holding me back from buying Executions for Peacekeeper. There are alot of cool ones but I'm just going to bleed my opponent out 95% of the time or better yet someone takes the kill away from me because bleed damage ticks are slow, so slow the enemy can still kill me.

Yeah that sucks tbh. I've never really played PK so I don't know what her strengths and weaknesses are, but everyone in the cast should get at least a side heavy from a successful GB. It's not like landing a successful GB is easy as they're so easily countered. Not being able to use your executions takes away a large part of what (in my opinion) makes this game so much fun to play. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the game didn't have executions in it, I probably wouldn't still be playing it and I've only done about 75h in PvP and around 280h overall.

Knight_Raime
09-29-2018, 09:58 PM
I don't want her to get HA or UB. The list was, as I said earlier, just a "State of PK" thing. And imo it is worth mentioning that she lacks all those fancy extras other Heroes have or got with their rework.

One more thing:
- No undodgeable Attack either


Ah alright.


Yeah that sucks tbh. I've never really played PK so I don't know what her strengths and weaknesses are, but everyone in the cast should get at least a side heavy from a successful GB. It's not like landing a successful GB is easy as they're so easily countered. Not being able to use your executions takes away a large part of what (in my opinion) makes this game so much fun to play. In fact, I would go as far as to say that if the game didn't have executions in it, I probably wouldn't still be playing it and I've only done about 75h in PvP and around 280h overall.

executions are integral for anything outside duels. as it's your primary source of health regen. (and this is emphasised even more now with the removal of gear stats in marching fire) so anyone that isn't able to get a heavy in easily is instantly weaker than most of the cast.

DoctorMcBatman
09-29-2018, 10:12 PM
Ah alright.



executions are integral for anything outside duels. as it's your primary source of health regen. (and this is emphasised even more now with the removal of gear stats in marching fire) so anyone that isn't able to get a heavy in easily is instantly weaker than most of the cast.

One of PK's feats used to restore health. I suppose it was nerfed.

DefiledDragon
09-29-2018, 10:28 PM
One of PK's feats used to restore health. I suppose it was nerfed.

Second wind? Think all the Knights have that one. I may be wrong.

Helnekromancer
09-29-2018, 10:40 PM
The only healing Feat PK has is Bounty Hunter but you have to kill another Hero to activate it and the heal it gives is very low. I think they nerfed it in the past.

And she is also trading Stealth for it which in my opinion is a major disadvantage because Stealth is a big tool for ganks, picking off stragglers, sneaking behind enemies to grab a point, or hiding in the minions.

CandleInTheDark
09-30-2018, 01:46 AM
I can't say much about 1v1 as I mainly 4v4, but in my game mode I pretty much knew that the nerfs peacekeeper received, compensated by stacking bleeds, bug fixes and a single direction soft feint, were going to hamper her there. The devs made most of her game about getting bleed, the problem you have there is a lot of people run high debuff resistance, then you get wardens who two minutes or so in have thick blood on top of that and the kidney stab does a tiny amount of damage that ticks over within a second or so meaning they can't even act in a support role to the likes of shaman and nobushi - I don't mind playing that role, my valkyrie will be a speedy medic with the new perks system which will be especially useful in breach for the extra 25% health regain and I will sooner or later have tiandi and nobushi towards the same purpose levelled up for options, but outside that not being for everyone it will drive down pick rate even further - the issue in the current setup being her primary cause of damage is more or less nullified.

Apparently the changes, along with the guardswitch bug that allowed most people I came up against to get my every light including dagger cancels, killed her 1v1 also looking at the chart, but 4v4 with gear score it was always going to be catastrophic. Marching fire and the new gear will be an indirect buff to her in that regard but her 1v1 performance indicates that there is going to be a lot more that needs to be done to her. I don't mean rolling back the nerfs either, if they were going to keep her fast the damage needed to come down and even as someone who mostly plays assassins I believe that faster attacks should have less damage, even when faster attacks happen within a chain, but there is a reason that the only assassin not severely hampered by the guardswitch bug was the one that has to use her whole kit to be effective rather than a barrage of lights in any case, I was hoping that any rework would put the peacekeeper and orochi more in that direction rather than making them newb stompers but ineffective in high level play with 400ms lights.

Jazz117Volkov
09-30-2018, 03:56 AM
I was playing around with Peacekeeper last night for a bit and the two things that stood out the most were her stamina consumption and her dodge attacks. While I think it's fair to say her regular attacks do lack a bit of punch, I didn't notice it too much, it was definitely her dodge attack that consistently failed me--many characters can recover and block it if you attempt to counter them. And the stamina is a total joke. You do three things and you're OOS, or in the case of her soft-feint into GB and bleed stabs...you basically do one thing and you're out of stamina.

Even if you can get somewhere with her kit, it's just not fun to do it. I won a few rounds and even got an execution once, but even when it happened it felt like an accident.

DoctorMcBatman
09-30-2018, 10:17 PM
Second wind? Think all the Knights have that one. I may be wrong.

No the level 2 feat that gives a damage reduction every few seconds, used to be health every few seconds.

Mighty_Mackerel
10-01-2018, 12:50 AM
I don't play her but she seems to be like a pre-rework Valk or pre-rework HL, tons of effort, with little damage to show for it. Time to kill with them was much longer than with others, you could outplay others regularly and still lose.

PK was too strong before, but they over did her nerf/rework.

This is exactly how I feel; I agree 100 percent.

IssaKazuma
10-01-2018, 03:02 AM
Fix The lag

CRIMS0NM0NKEY
10-01-2018, 06:18 AM
Pk needs to be back how she was if she is going to compete. Her damage output feels so much less then it use to be. Since they both debuffed her then debuffed her distance while locked on she is a bail comparison to what she was in the past. I mean why play Pk when you can just play Valkyrie?

UbiInsulin
10-01-2018, 07:32 PM
Thanks everyone for the detailed discussion here. I'll send this thread to the team.