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View Full Version : P 51 ,jack of all trades,master of none?



nTurner
04-05-2007, 01:30 PM
Since just recently buying this game and then discovering you guys here.I have been in a flurry,happily reading everything I could get my hands on about WW2 fighter aviation.

It seems that my "dream plane" might have been good all around in performance,but didnt really excel in much except for its range.Would a veteran P51 pilot be at a disadvantage with a veteran Luftwaffe pilot in say, a 109K if both knew of the others presence before the fight?

Those late 109'S appear very good on paper,especially in the climb and level top speed.Just wondering..

nTurner
04-05-2007, 01:30 PM
Since just recently buying this game and then discovering you guys here.I have been in a flurry,happily reading everything I could get my hands on about WW2 fighter aviation.

It seems that my "dream plane" might have been good all around in performance,but didnt really excel in much except for its range.Would a veteran P51 pilot be at a disadvantage with a veteran Luftwaffe pilot in say, a 109K if both knew of the others presence before the fight?

Those late 109'S appear very good on paper,especially in the climb and level top speed.Just wondering..

PBNA-Boosher
04-05-2007, 01:35 PM
The P-51's a fine airplane and so is the 109. In the -51 you should have the zoom climb, dive, and the top speed to best a 109. That doesn't mean that your 350 kph will be faster than his 350 kph though. If you keep maneuvering, you're dead as that rabbit I stepped on this morning. Altitude, initial speed, etc... all matter, as well as the mission that both pilots were on. Aircraft to aircraft comparison's fine, mostly, but it largely ignores some of the larger factors- weather, fuel, fatigue, etc...

and, coincidentally, isn't the phrase:
P-51, Cadillac of the Sky?

DKoor
04-05-2007, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nTurner:
Since just recently buying this game and then discovering you guys here.I have been in a flurry,happily reading everything I could get my hands on about WW2 fighter aviation.

It seems that my "dream plane" might have been good all around in performance,but didnt really excel in much except for its range.Would a veteran P51 pilot be at a disadvantage with a veteran Luftwaffe pilot in say, a 109K if both knew of the others presence before the fight?

Those late 109'S appear very good on paper,especially in the climb and level top speed.Just wondering.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>51 is tough plane to fly in game, but I assure you nothing with black crosses on can catch that horse... as I am painfully reminded over and over again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
They are running away from my D like there's no tomorrow and there is nothing I can do about it...
Funny thing is, no other allied plane can do that believe me - perhaps only 47 but 51 is a bit better in this regard.

Excellent plane - if only Oleg fixes the 12,7's on that plane it'd be the new best be sure.
Fix would only need to have better tracer visibility or smoke so that would make target tracking easier.

Once when experienced 51 player jumps on me there is no escape I know I'm gonna get it, and the only thing that saved me over and over again are, you wont believe it - .50 cals.
So if those guys could track me better with their invisible .50 lasers I'd be as good as dead...

Until that happens I can only say - thanks Oleg. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

HuninMunin
04-05-2007, 01:48 PM
I'd say it comes down to the type of mission and/or server your flying in.
In a "historical" fight the match would probably be 109 G-6 vs P-51C or even D;
there the strengths of the P-51 (as described by Boosher) will shine as the G-6 in reality was not realy up to the Mustang and our ingame variant of the above is even more *cough* weak...

If it's 109 K vs P-51; it's "very close" to "matched" in energy fighting and no contest in angles fighting; no good Mustang pilot will turnfight the 109 anyway....regardless of what some Pony-Pilots draw from the History Channel
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif .

But there is one thing that might give the Stang pilot a good chance at high speed: the 109s heavy elevators beyond 480 km/h - it has been subject of many, bloody flamewars wether this heavy elevators are realistic or not; anyway they give you the possibility to leave the 109 standing in high speed energy fights.

EDIT
Welcome to the forums, mate!

fordfan25
04-05-2007, 01:49 PM
depends on who you talk to. some piolets said the 109 could out turn the p-51 others said the p-51 had the adv in turn.

in game p51 has horrible ecelaration but comeing out of a dive it can maintain speed well. has a medeocre climb. dive top speed is good but like with ALL main USA fighters its dive ecelaration is nothing to brag about when compaired to enemy fighters that it should be able to out dive. low alt dog fighting with 50% fuel is close to a 190 but a no no against 109s. at 25kft its slightly faster than a 190dora and has the adv in a long race against the 109k. one trick aginst 109s is while thay can keep up in a dive as far as picking up speed thay cant pull out of a dive well. so once you get at about 400+ MPH pull up and he will loose you. The p-51 damnge moddle is ok.

nTurner
04-05-2007, 01:52 PM
Reading about that K series 109 puts it at 452 mph at 19,685 ft witha climb rate to 32810 ft in 6 min,42 sec!
Compare that to a 51B with approx 430 mph(i cant find speed specs at 20,000 to compare with the 109)and a climb to 30,000 ft in 12 min,36 sec.
Either our boys were very,very good or they had a lot,lot more planes at the point of contact!

horseback
04-05-2007, 01:59 PM
The real life Mustang had some qualities that were important in combat that don't always translate well to this sim, like cockpit ergonomics and light controls. You will also see lots of arguements that the Mustang's handling and acceleration aren't properly modelled in proportion to its contemporaries' depictions in these regards.

On the other hand, the Bf 109K had some issues that the game can't/won't address, like the cockpit heating (most accounts of combat that I can find from pilots who flew this plane were not happy about a tendency for the windshield to fog or frost up), finish (make a large portion of your airframe with forced labor, and you will have quality problems), scarcity of fuel and competent pilots.

This sim models every plane to factory fresh, ideal condition, which will favor late-war German and Japanese aircraft to some degree. The Allies, on the other hand, were beating whatever the opposition came up with quite handily with what was already on hand in mid-1944, and so did not feel quite the same urgency to come up with upgraded models right away, like the P-51H, Bearcat, or Spitfire Mk XIV/XVIII.

Having said that, most first line fighters of any given period of the war fell into pretty similar performance categories, sacrificing a bit in one quality to obtain the advantage in another. The deciding factors were usually who saw the other guy first, who had the most speed or altitude advantage, and who actually knew what the hell he was doing.

cheers

horseback

Walrus-
04-05-2007, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nTurner:
It seems that my "dream plane" might have been good all around in performance,but didnt really excel in much except for its range. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that we are dealing with an in game flight model that doesn't do justice to the stellar reputation of this plane. Of course this is controversial and really impossible to prove either way.

As DKoor points out, it is still fast when at top speed:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
51 is tough plane to fly in game, but I assure you nothing with black crosses on can catch that horse... as I am painfully reminded over and over again.
They are running away from my D like there's no tomorrow and there is nothing I can do about it... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It requires very disciplined flying to keep this speed advantage, because acceleration and climb are relatively poor. Bottom line is make as few and as gentle turns as possible. And then, as DKoor points out, 50s are hard to use, which makes the dive/slash/zoom tactics that it is suited for more difficult to execute.

Brain32
04-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Only German prop plane type I respect when flying P51D is the FW190D9, others are IMO not a match. FW190A is in complete disadvantage against the P51, except in firepower and roll rate at low speed, late 109's are IMO way too stiff at way too low speeds to posess a threat for the P51, just don't try to evade them by very low speed(300kmh or less) turning or climbing. Basically you are only in trouble if they make a suprise bounce on you and you are both, low speed and on the deck, but hey it's not like you are flying a Spitfire right?
Fw190D9 is as fast or faster than you(depends on the altitude), turns just as good as you, has better sustained climb and roll rate at low speeds, you have better dive and zoom characteristics and most important your speed retention is better, you will hold excess speed built in the dive longer and that can be your advantage in chase/chased situations.

The only problem I ever had with it was and is extremely sensitive elevator authority, makes small corrections a bit demanding...

stalkervision
04-05-2007, 02:14 PM
it is funny but people actually don't realise how important in real life excellent cockpit vision really is. That's why all our jet fighters even with their excellent radar have bubble canopies. The Mustang and P-47 have this and the late 109 was equiped with the "galland hood" to try to aliviate some of the vision problems the 109 always had..

badatit
04-05-2007, 02:15 PM
IL2 Compare 4.07 (http://war.by-airforce.com/downloads/il2compare-4.07.html)

This should give a good picture of performance differences In"Sim".

Bearcat99
04-05-2007, 02:27 PM
One thing about pilot accounts that we must remember. Much of what a pilot could or could not do depends not only on the plane but also on the physical stamina of the pilot. I read where one 99th pilot had to practically stand on the rudder pedals with all his might just to take off in a P-40... while others could just give hard left rudder... different pilots had different G tolerances... and that was what largely determined how well a plane could do a high speed turn as well as the specs of the plane itself. The 51 was a good plane.... I tell you what.. the only complaints I recall reading with any consistency about the Mustang against any aircraft or performing any role was the full center tank COG shift, the glass jaw on the engine, and the torque. As far as fighting goes.. to a man they all said they felt confident that they could beat anyone in a Mustang.

VW-IceFire
04-05-2007, 04:11 PM
RE: Turning fights in a Mustang....I was flying a P-51C against a Bf109G-6A/S and managed to hold a guy in a variety of moves at 3000m for about 10 minutes of fighting. The best I could do was get 4-5 .50cal hits on him in random places (never all at once) as he crossed my nose. Granted its a G-6 with the worst turn times but it was a G-6A/S and it was an excellent fight.

Combat flaps are key in such a fight I've found. As long as you don't stall the Mustang you're fine. And its bloody fast so I could have run away if things went badly...which they did when a small group of FW190s showed up. Turned tail and ran http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

leitmotiv
04-05-2007, 04:24 PM
Never judge a real thing on the basis of a toy no matter how clever it is---IL-2 like all teachers has limitations.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2007, 05:33 PM
Also bear in mind that 20 or 30 hours behind the stick in a virtual P-51 is not going to teach you all of the plane's finer points. You can't hop in a plane, and expect it to make you the Ace of Aces

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2007, 05:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
and, coincidentally, isn't the phrase:
P-51, Cadillac of the Sky? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boosh-

that's a line from the film "Empire of the Sun" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BigKahuna_GS
04-05-2007, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">DKoor -Once when experienced 51 player jumps on me there is no escape I know I'm gonna get it, and the only thing that saved me over and over again are, you wont believe it - .50 cals.
So if those guys could track me better with their invisible .50 lasers I'd be as good as dead...

Until that happens I can only say - thanks Oleg. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Lol !

I think the samething eveytime I fly a Mustang on WarClouds---cant see the tracers/not sure where I am hitting unless little pieces are flying off. Sometimes I think there is a "lost packet" problem affecting the damage the .50cals do online as my gunnery is definetly much better
offline vs online.

This can be a very fustrating problem as you feel like you are shooting with rubber bullets. I had a clean high speed bounce on a lower alt Ki84 in Wildcats vs Zekes server. I saw little pieces fly off but all I did was give the guy a fuel leak. The Ki84 flew like nothing ever happened and later on he ended up chasing me in a high speed dive from 10,000ft to 6,000ft --the Ki84 was gaining on me (no damage drag from bullets?)so I decided to reverse thru the massive cloud cover. Unfortunatley for me there wasnt enough cover at that particular moment and with a quick burst/high deflection shot the Ki84 killed my engine. To add insult to injury--what looked like a very large fuel leak didnt prevent the Ki84 from making it back to base. After all the 190s I have shot at and damaged and watched run away and to now have a Ki84 just get a fuel leak after a textbook high speed bounce was just too much. The Ki84 pilot was Thunderbolt56--sorry if I complained on chat, it wasnt anything you did, it was the sheer fustration of shooting another enemy aircraft with .50cals from a clean bounce and watching it fly around like nothing happened for the uptenth time and it finally got to me.


__

fordfan25
04-05-2007, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nTurner:
Reading about that K series 109 puts it at 452 mph at 19,685 ft witha climb rate to 32810 ft in 6 min,42 sec!
Compare that to a 51B with approx 430 mph(i cant find speed specs at 20,000 to compare with the 109)and a climb to 30,000 ft in 12 min,36 sec.
Either our boys were very,very good or they had a lot,lot more planes at the point of contact! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>or thay flew aboave 20k

PBNA-Boosher
04-05-2007, 09:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BBB462cid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PBNA-Boosher:
and, coincidentally, isn't the phrase:
P-51, Cadillac of the Sky? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boosh-

that's a line from the film "Empire of the Sun" http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know. I was hoping somebody would catch it.

badatit
04-05-2007, 11:25 PM
The P51's just get better and better.
Earlier today (spits vs 109's server), I took up a P51B (it was that or nuttin) on the Normandy map (coastal base).
I take off, grab out north, come around to 045, east, finally head south at 14k.
I get a couple of grids inland and swing west (out of the sun).
I spot a con @ 2:00 slightly low 190A9. I saddle up on him, he gets the worst of it, and tries to dive away. I'm 100 fuel, he aint goin nowhere.

Another A9 shows up, then another.

The first A9 made it to base (badly damaged).
Second A9 augered in. Third A9 escaped (I ran out of ammo). I RTB'd.

This was one of "those" sorties. &lt;evil grin&gt;

MrMojok
04-06-2007, 12:14 AM
WOOT!