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View Full Version : why the PK is better then you'd think



Saurons_blade
09-13-2018, 01:13 AM
So a lot of people think that the PK is a weaker shaman at the moment. She can't heal, her softfeint is locked into top direction, she doesn't have unblockables, and If you write a whole list compairing their moves, the shaman seems to win in every way.
I myself was under the impression that the PK is in a bad spot. But she might be stronger than most of us are/where thinking.

See, while having great similarities, thei'r movelist's have big but not so obvious differences. Most importantly, the PK is able to use her soft feint at any point in any combo, which gives her some good options if she manages to confirm a combo starter. The shaman's chain finisher on the other hand, can no longer be soft feinted into a bleed, only into a guardbreak. that's important to keep in mind, cause as a Shaman player you often find your chains getting disrupted due to a lack of hyperarmor, and due to rather weak stagger on your light attacks. Fast hitting opponents can just immediately use light attacks, zone attacks or even dodge/dash attacks to get out of your mixup, which means that for good players the shaman's unblockable is only viable against opponents without stamina.
The PK, doesn't share this weakness. When she hits, the opponent is locked into recovery so long that you can use your mixup without being disrupted. The opponent can still make a correct read/guess against it, but you still have all of your choices available; hardfeint, softfeint into bleed, and softfeint into guardbreak.
If you are good at mixing these options you can really pressure you'r opponent.

So the PK has a 400ms zone attack that enables option select parries, decent chain finishing options that are far less situational than those of the Shaman and thus give her great combo potential, fairly long range heavies that are good for whiff punishing and guardbreak punishing, and decently fast attacks. She doesn't have a bash and struggles to open up some really skilled blockers, but that's a problem that also applies to: Berserker, Orochi, Aramusha, Nobushi to name some examples. That doesn't mean she's weak.

Charmzzz
09-13-2018, 07:46 AM
I will go through your points to make it easier to understand why PK is pretty bad in 4v4 and Ok in Duel right now:

1. "PK is able to use her soft feint at any point in any combo": True, but her soft-feints always come out at the same timing and she cannot put up pressure with an unblockable. You can literally stand there just blocking and CGB'ing to deny PK completely. Shaman has an unblockable to force a reaction.

2. "if she manages to confirm a combo starter": Biggest problem with PK is that. You can ONLY get into a Chain with a confirmed Light. Everything else (Heavy Dagger Cancel / GB, Dodge-Attack) ends her Combo (mostly with a Mosquito-like bleed of 15 Damage before Armor and Debuff Reduction).

3. OOS pressure: PK has none. Shaman has plenty.

4. "PK has a 400ms zone attack that enables option select parries": That is the only thing that keeps PK in A-Tier. Even though it only deals 15 Damage and is not a Chain starter.

5. "decent chain finishing options": I wouldn't say that she has decent finishers. She has alot of options, but as an opponent you can just stand there and react to everything. No pressure.

Now, let's see how much Damage PK deals on confirmed hits:
Light - Light: 13 - 15
Heavy - Heavy: 20 - 25 (+1 DD and 10 Bleed if you followup but end the Chain)
GB Triple Stab: 6 DD + 32 Bleed = 38
GB Double Stab - Wallsplat - Dodge Heavy with followup: 20 DD + 26 = 46
Zone Attack: 15 Damage

Debuff Reduction is mostly 50 - 70%. PK has the lowest "punishes", if you want to call them like that, in the game. ~20 Damage off a GB (no confirmed heavy after GB!)? Highest punish ~30 Damage? There are Characters in the game that do DOUBLE the Damage from a single punish...

Sure, a good player can make her work. In Duel she is high A- or even S-Tier. But in Dominion she is underpowered due to her Damage and Recovery nerfs. Her fast recovery was what made her good and hard to punish - all gone. Then added a massive Damage nerf (because they wanted to nerf the Bleed team...), Dev's intention to focus her on Bleed which gives her NOTHING and is reduced by Debuff Reduction to ridiculously small values without any chance to buff it.

I cannot wait for Marching Fire where Debuff Reduction is gone as a Stat iirc. Make Bleeds great again! :D

Siegfried-Z
09-13-2018, 10:33 AM
So a lot of people think that the PK is a weaker shaman at the moment. She can't heal, her softfeint is locked into top direction, she doesn't have unblockables, and If you write a whole list compairing their moves, the shaman seems to win in every way.
I myself was under the impression that the PK is in a bad spot. But she might be stronger than most of us are/where thinking.

See, while having great similarities, thei'r movelist's have big but not so obvious differences. Most importantly, the PK is able to use her soft feint at any point in any combo, which gives her some good options if she manages to confirm a combo starter. The shaman's chain finisher on the other hand, can no longer be soft feinted into a bleed, only into a guardbreak. that's important to keep in mind, cause as a Shaman player you often find your chains getting disrupted due to a lack of hyperarmor, and due to rather weak stagger on your light attacks. Fast hitting opponents can just immediately use light attacks, zone attacks or even dodge/dash attacks to get out of your mixup, which means that for good players the shaman's unblockable is only viable against opponents without stamina.
The PK, doesn't share this weakness. When she hits, the opponent is locked into recovery so long that you can use your mixup without being disrupted. The opponent can still make a correct read/guess against it, but you still have all of your choices available; hardfeint, softfeint into bleed, and softfeint into guardbreak.
If you are good at mixing these options you can really pressure you'r opponent.

So the PK has a 400ms zone attack that enables option select parries, decent chain finishing options that are far less situational than those of the Shaman and thus give her great combo potential, fairly long range heavies that are good for whiff punishing and guardbreak punishing, and decently fast attacks. She doesn't have a bash and struggles to open up some really skilled blockers, but that's a problem that also applies to: Berserker, Orochi, Aramusha, Nobushi to name some examples. That doesn't mean she's weak.

Well there you should separate things.

I mean, i fully agree with you if we talk about a PK-Sham Duel... then i would pick up Pk without a doubt.

But agaisnt many others Char (vanguards, tanks and most hybrids) i would pick up Shaman.

And this is only for 1v1.

As Charmz said, in 4v4 she is too weak currently.. because of debuff reduction stats, because of her weak dmg which makes hard to kill an opponent before he get revenge and again more once he is in revenge.

And Pk is not a fast killer... i mean i fully agree the numbers of tools is not what makes a char stonger than another (exemple with PK/Sham duel) but in most cases in 4v4 situation or in duel agaisnt good turtles, Pk really lack some tools... keep in mind that PK is currently the ONLY ONE among the 18 Char without UB, HA or Bash... which can makes things hard for her.

Few days ago i played her a bit (it was a long time i didn't while i have 10rep on her), and i've won a Duel against a rep 36 Conq (we were in dominion), but man i had to be soo patient, we fought for 2min i think.. i was lucky no one came up in the fight.. that's what i mean.

Alustar.
09-13-2018, 01:10 PM
Point of order here, shaman heavy finisher never canceled into bleed. It was always a follow up bleed similar to PK, except not guaranteed since it can come from any vector. Additionally shaman can soft feint to GB or a dodge on finishers. On heavy opener you can soft feint to GB or bleed.

Alustar.
09-13-2018, 01:44 PM
Point of order here, shaman heavy finisher never canceled into bleed. It was always a follow up bleed similar to PK, except not guaranteed since it can come from any vector. Additionally shaman can soft feint to GB or a dodge on finishers. On heavy opener you can soft feint to GB or bleed.

HazelrahFirefly
09-13-2018, 03:06 PM
The PK, my old main, is absolutely weak.

I think an interesting idea would be to treat her bleeding sort of how Dark souls does. Have all bleeding hits deal 0 damage, but still tack on a red bar, and then when the bar reaches "full" the target pops for all that damage.

The PK still has to work to get in the bleeds, and the target can fend off those attacks. The pressure would come from not knowing if the PK will try to get the pop or will treat it as a distraction to fool the target into being hit by non-bleed attacks.

Charmzzz
09-13-2018, 05:10 PM
The PK, my old main, is absolutely weak.

I think an interesting idea would be to treat her bleeding sort of how Dark souls does. Have all bleeding hits deal 0 damage, but still tack on a red bar, and then when the bar reaches "full" the target pops for all that damage.

The PK still has to work to get in the bleeds, and the target can fend off those attacks. The pressure would come from not knowing if the PK will try to get the pop or will treat it as a distraction to fool the target into being hit by non-bleed attacks.

So basically Bleeds are like direct Damage then? Because they "lower" the max HP, which direct Damage does also. I don't think that would be good, if you want to get a full 120 HP bar full with Bleeds, man, you would have to land ALOT of hits...

Knight_Raime
09-13-2018, 06:32 PM
Shaman is 100% better than pk in 4's. There is no debating that. Her bite is strong, is enabled by outside help, and allows for instant kill setups if properly coordinated with allies. Usually allows for 2 heavies. Which that combined with her 50 damage bleed usually means death. Revenge also can't shove her bite off.

In duels pk is better. But that's literally just because she's safer/plays better defensively. Offensively potential wise all of shaman's options are technically better. But they're all incredibly unsafe. And since we still live in a for honor where defensive play is still too easy/strong the safer you can be the better.

Alustar.
09-13-2018, 06:43 PM
Just a small knit pick for me, shaman never had a bleed cancel from heavy finisher. It was always a follow up attack, similar to PK butt not confirmed on hit since it can come from any direction.

And after playing both of them as extensively as I have, I prefer shaman to PK simply because of aggressive options. PK had better defensive abilities, but she is very weak as an aggressor.

HazelrahFirefly
09-13-2018, 10:32 PM
So basically Bleeds are like direct Damage then? Because they "lower" the max HP, which direct Damage does also. I don't think that would be good, if you want to get a full 120 HP bar full with Bleeds, man, you would have to land ALOT of hits...

Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of reaching an arbitrary amount, let's day 50 damage. Once that amount is reached the red pops as delivered damage. Until then it is just coloring and if the 50 points of bleed aren't reached then the red stays and is depleted per normal damage taken - so, less than the pop for 50.

iadvisoryi
09-13-2018, 10:51 PM
To be honest I'm gonna be a bit ignorant and only read the title itself And state my opinion. All of pj's heavy faints into dagger go high, there's no mix. If you block instead of go for a parry you can react, her Dodge heavy is a heavy, I'm constantly fainting and grabbing pk out of her dash heavy, her running grab is pointless, her grab bleed does a lot of dmg but it's a grab... So. Her lights are slow and stupidly reactable now. She just needs more tools and better tools to work with, she has no utility and only faints to open people up.

D3dicatedSrv3rz
09-13-2018, 11:27 PM
Shaman has better faints and can prompt a reaction with UBs. No one fears an OOS pk while a shaman scares me worst than a cent used to. Bers and aram can keep pressure on, nobu has range, and orochi has 2x as many chains and idk how many more openers. Pk has an area, thats it

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 07:28 AM
Nah, I was thinking more along the lines of reaching an arbitrary amount, let's day 50 damage. Once that amount is reached the red pops as delivered damage. Until then it is just coloring and if the 50 points of bleed aren't reached then the red stays and is depleted per normal damage taken - so, less than the pop for 50.

So it will still tick the Bleeds, but if specific Bleed stacks are reached then you will get Bonus Damage? That would be nice indeed.

Alustar.
09-14-2018, 11:35 AM
Anyone else really looking forward to the immanent "nerf bleed" threads this October? I seriously cannot wait!

Charmzzz
09-14-2018, 11:46 AM
Anyone else really looking forward to the immanent "nerf bleed" threads this October? I seriously cannot wait!

Oh yeah, that will be fun. With Debuff Reduction going away the PK will rise again. But there is still the Warden level 2 feat, and him being a super popular pick these days will be a pain. Dealing pretty much Light Damage to him with a Heavy is ridiculous. The fact that a confirmed GB results in 6 Damage is a joke, too.

Alustar.
09-14-2018, 11:57 AM
Oh yeah, that will be fun. With Debuff Reduction going away the PK will rise again. But there is still the Warden level 2 feat, and him being a super popular pick these days will be a pain. Dealing pretty much Light Damage to him with a Heavy is ridiculous. The fact that a confirmed GB results in 6 Damage is a joke, too.

Yeah, at least it's on a slight cooldown now. I don't understand why they would even have this feat, though.