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Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 12:53 PM
Sorry for the desillusion all ^^

Just an open discussion here as the data came so long to appear . Find my ranked below with comments :

S-tiers

1: Warden
Well he has everything, is easy to play, is safe.. He has speed, UB, Bash, 50/50 from neutral, best sup block of the gameÖ i would say his Ub should be remoove and he's gonna be balanced

2 : Conq
The best char at scoring dmg without taking any risks and all his dmg come almost from guaranteed hit which put him there. Need a nerf on his SB at least

3 : HL
Too strong for me, high dmg, lots of HA and UB, guaranteed dmg on many bash, crazy range.. Needs at least a nerf on his caber toss 50/50

A-tiers

4 : Valk
Very good now, almost S-tiers but not bcz of her weak dmg and she can be punished hard sometimes. Btw amazing mixup potential and opener

5 : Kensei
Strong but fine, lots of options but all are reactable, mindgame char

6 : Zerk
Lots of HA and UB but very short range and at the end often doing the same feint. I think he shouldn't have HA on his light feint thats all

7 : Shaman
A lot are complaining about her but in my opinion she is fine, intense mix up and original mech, strong but not too much (for me)

B-tiers

8 : Shinobi
Very strong well played but nothing OP for me, interesting char

9 : Musha
I would say correct overall and in 1v1 or 4v4 and even very good against assassins

10 : Glad
Intense mix up, lots of options, good zone, but need a better guard to be good in 4v4(too tight currently)

11 : LB
Interesting and good kit, but he needs a better opener, overall he is good in 4v4

12 : Warlord
Good and in the average i think.. Just boring to play and to fight.. He needs more fun in his set

13 : Cent
Balance, strong cutscene in 4v4 but misse some options in 1v1

14 : Roch
Good kit overall but nothing special, in the low average i would say.. only lights spam options :/


C-tiers

15 : PK
Good kit but too weak dmg now and no UB, no Bash, No HA makes her weak in 4v4

16 : Raider
Top dog in 4v4 with stampede and zone but still stick with zone/tap mix up and has nothing more in 1v1

D-tiers

17 : Nobu
Strong defensive Char and good dmg but as shugo is strongly punished too often on her offense

18 : Shugo
Sill strong in 4v4 bcz HA,UB, Stun and Demon embrace but he is too much predictable and has no oponers at all

So please no rage here only discussion ^^ Tell your main(s) if you can. On my side my top 3 Char i play are Kensei (23) and Valk (15).

What do u think guys?

Armosias
08-30-2018, 12:54 PM
Rename this thread as it is NOT official state of balance thanks.

Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 01:23 PM
Where did you see "Official" in the title ? Anyway if not interested to discuss about it you would have lost less time to just back up than to comment .

Lord_Cherubi
08-30-2018, 01:39 PM
I'd say this is pretty accurate, good post! :)

Alltho i wouldn't rank Highlander that high, he's deadly in good hands but no way is his kit S-tier material.

Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 02:17 PM
I'd say this is pretty accurate, good post! :)

Alltho i wouldn't rank Highlander that high, he's deadly in good hands but no way is his kit S-tier material.

Thanks man !

Yep i was hesitating for HL, because while his kit is strong i know he requires some skills to be good with ^^ Maybe in top A tiers then because if abused his 50/50 is really OP.

voiddp
08-30-2018, 02:43 PM
Not accurate at all for Nobushi.
She has punishable antinewb combos, sure. But also very good punishers herself and very good option select from HS
And dodge attacks, that require mastering the same as deflects require, but they are also unpunishable if used for countering people hits and then cancel recovery.
Also HS+dodge disables those 50\50(or not 50\50) of S-tiers.

She has no openers, but if Orochi is in somewhere B without openers. Then Nobu goes there too.
Well like in community tiers list from Reddit. B- for duels.

In this game most of character moves are reactable and punishable except for few that S-tiers have. So its not some specific Hero disadvantage.

HazelrahFirefly
08-30-2018, 03:16 PM
After certain guarantees of placement at the top (Warden and Conquerer) it's pretty much subjective as to whom is better than whom.

For example, I don't see Valk as A-tier at all, I see her as B. I say this from a perspective of playing her and playing against Valks. The mix ups are mostly useless against anyone who can block, the sweep is easily dodged, and her best tool is now to light attack from neutral.

SpaceJim12
08-30-2018, 04:00 PM
For example, I don't see Valk as A-tier at all, I see her as B. I say this from a perspective of playing her and playing against Valks. The mix ups are mostly useless against anyone who can block, the sweep is easily dodged, and her best tool is now to light attack from neutral.

I checked this with my friend, that you can't dodge sweep when you see it coming. So people start dodge before you do sweep. You can use it.=)

Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 04:49 PM
Not accurate at all for Nobushi.
She has punishable antinewb combos, sure. But also very good punishers herself and very good option select from HS
And dodge attacks, that require mastering the same as deflects require, but they are also unpunishable if used for countering people hits and then cancel recovery.
Also HS+dodge disables those 50\50(or not 50\50) of S-tiers.

She has no openers, but if Orochi is in somewhere B without openers. Then Nobu goes there too.
Well like in community tiers list from Reddit. B- for duels.

In this game most of character moves are reactable and punishable except for few that S-tiers have. So its not some specific Hero disadvantage.

Hum of course she has some good things, thaat's why i say she is a very strong defensive char. But i think mostly would agree she isn't in a good spot despite of that right now. If i put Orochi above it is because he can be offensive without beeing frequently hard punish what Nobushi is :/


After certain guarantees of placement at the top (Warden and Conquerer) it's pretty much subjective as to whom is better than whom.

For example, I don't see Valk as A-tier at all, I see her as B. I say this from a perspective of playing her and playing against Valks. The mix ups are mostly useless against anyone who can block, the sweep is easily dodged, and her best tool is now to light attack from neutral.

Of course this is subjective but this is interesting to know people pov.
Well i am myself rep 15 valk and with her rework she deal pretty well with platers who can block.. i have no problem fighting LB with her for example. The sweep is of course easily dodge if you do it too often and in a predictive way but now valk has an amazing mix up which allow you to brain your opponent.

plus to that she is the only char having assassins mobility and deflect but with fix guard which is pretty nice ;)


I checked this with my friend, that you can't dodge sweep when you see it coming. So people start dodge before you do sweep. You can use it.=)

Yep exactly, that's why you can easily punish ppl which always dodge ^^

Speedgamer2002
08-30-2018, 05:08 PM
So i main cent (18), played some glad(2), and just picked up shinobi (2). I think that shinobi (this may be completely biased but hear me out) is A tier because yes a ranged parry or gb ends your weeb run simulator but if you play smart, not necessarily turtle it's extremely difficult for others to catch me even in 4v4s also his quad dash and backflip-kick or sickle rain mixup is very effective against most of the roster plus great overall damage.

Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 05:12 PM
So i main cent (18), played some glad(2), and just picked up shinobi (2). I think that shinobi (this may be completely biased but hear me out) is A tier because yes a ranged parry or gb ends your weeb run simulator but if you play smart, not necessarily turtle it's extremely difficult for others to catch me even in 4v4s also his quad dash and backflip-kick or sickle rain mixup is very effective against most of the roster plus great overall damage.

About that yes he is very safe, he is call "safe boy" by some ^^ It's real that fighting a good shinobi sometimes you can't even put a finger on him and that's frustrating haha

DefiledDragon
08-30-2018, 05:43 PM
So i main cent (18), played some glad(2), and just picked up shinobi (2). I think that shinobi (this may be completely biased but hear me out) is A tier because yes a ranged parry or gb ends your weeb run simulator but if you play smart, not necessarily turtle it's extremely difficult for others to catch me even in 4v4s also his quad dash and backflip-kick or sickle rain mixup is very effective against most of the roster plus great overall damage.

Shinobi is god tier in the right hands. He's next to untouchable.

voiddp
08-30-2018, 06:20 PM
Hum of course she has some good things, thaat's why i say she is a very strong defensive char. But i think mostly would agree she isn't in a good spot despite of that right now. If i put Orochi above it is because he can be offensive without beeing frequently hard punish what Nobushi is :/

But what you said is just wrong. Orochi is frequently hard punished for going on offensive if not vs newb level where he is king of spam. I mean hero with no openers... defensive meta and stuff.. ?

HazelrahFirefly
08-30-2018, 07:50 PM
Well, for me, only Aramusha and Shinobi are S-Tier, but I know I'm in a very small minority.

AzureSky.
08-31-2018, 12:52 AM
Shinobi has the higest damage values on lights at 500ms (24) a heavy parry that does 29 damage (in total so highest heavy punish in the game)

and also has something that noboy else has, he can act 2cond on all of the moves without a problem thanks to his backflip, a good shinobi can win vs a highlander 100% of the time.

Highlander is stronger vs the current S tier characters that's why he seems so strong, but put his against a shaman (that his side dodge can win all the time vs the kick to grab combo) and he is screwed.

Nobushi is a character that can feint lights (with the stance) so it shouldn't be so low on the list, also she has 26 damage on heavy parry.

Warden problem is not his unblockable, it's his charged heavy 50/50 and also he is able to feint it later so he can dash + heavy for a free hit if you roll.

dinosaurlicker
08-31-2018, 03:23 AM
Aramusha is bottom tier. Youíre just bad if you place him any higher as you can literally just block.

Nobushi is up a tier. She has a good unblockable and hidden stance is super strong.

Highlander is iffy but imo not as strong as warden and conq

dinosaurlicker
08-31-2018, 03:26 AM
Zerker is also S tier and orochi is above a lot of those heroes

Buggy.Blaster
08-31-2018, 07:46 AM
Glad is actually in S tier believe me or not.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 08:36 AM
Zerker is also S tier and orochi is above a lot of those heroes

Zerker in S? Maybe on Console for players who have 150ms+ input lag. On PC my 400ms Lights do not open up anybody...


Glad is actually in S tier believe me or not.

That's sarcasm, right?

Siegfried-Z
08-31-2018, 09:29 AM
But what you said is just wrong. Orochi is frequently hard punished for going on offensive if not vs newb level where he is king of spam. I mean hero with no openers... defensive meta and stuff.. ?

Well maybe it is my bad but i should have say i am in PS4. And on console Roch is rarely punish for landing lights.
At least far less than Nobu.


Aramusha is bottom tier. Youíre just bad if you place him any higher as you can literally just block.

Nobushi is up a tier. She has a good unblockable and hidden stance is super strong.

Highlander is iffy but imo not as strong as warden and conq

Again for console but Musha is not that easy to handle if the guy is good at mixing soft feint and gb. . Specially if you play an assassins ..


Glad is actually in S tier believe me or not.

Glad has a too short guard To be s tiers man . Play him in 4v4 you gonna see...

voiddp
08-31-2018, 10:12 AM
That's why there are usually different tiers presented for each type of game modes.
4vs4 ,2vs2, 1vs1
Characters are not balanced for everything same way.

RexXZ347
08-31-2018, 11:51 AM
Aramusha and goki are D tier.

Siegfried-Z
08-31-2018, 12:14 PM
That's why there are usually different tiers presented for each type of game modes.
4vs4 ,2vs2, 1vs1
Characters are not balanced for everything same way.

I don't see the point for 2v2.

Anyway i didn't compare Nobu and Roch on diff mode, just say i am on PS4, and while i parry or deflect often Nobu lights, dash or zone, i almost never do against Roch.. far more difficult to punish than Nobu.

But again that's an open discussion and i've made it to hear diff opinion so that's nice ! not here to say i'm fully right :)

Siegfried-Z
08-31-2018, 12:15 PM
Aramusha and goki are D tier.

I've heard Musha is really trash on PC... but he is still in a good spot on the last win matrix we have from S5 and on console he is still viable and even strong assassins crusher.

He has good anti-gank abilities too.

Corentin10111
08-31-2018, 01:46 PM
Zek is definitly S tier on console, spammed hyper armored feints are a real nightmare.

Clusternut
08-31-2018, 08:53 PM
LB on PC is definately D Tier. He is too slow, his heavy chain is too predicable and slow, recovery frames feel so slow, has NO way to break a turtle, no way to really engage and is entirely reliant on block -> shove which is reactable and punishable. Some assassin's lights can be chained at such a speed it's near impossible to defend and unless you get lucky somehow manage to parry something or get a block shove, most players will just dodge and re-engage anyway.

I can't believe people say he's good in 4v4 becuase you can only really try and get kills from heavies whilst someone else is engaging a player. 1v1, nah.

And Aramusha again D tier. Any half decent player will block your light chain unless you gank them. Damage is strong from the heavies which are fast, zone is easy to predict dodge. No way of breaking a turtle and he's had his side dodge normalised so he's even slower. He only looks good becuase you can plow through noobs at LOW level with light spam, which you can do on any other assasin or vanguard. Conq has a better infinate chain and he's a heavy! Still I hold zero hope the problems will get addressed.

DefiledDragon
08-31-2018, 11:21 PM
I can't believe people say he's good in 4v4 becuase you can only really try and get kills from heavies whilst someone else is engaging a player. 1v1, nah.

Position oneself strategically facing a ledge/spikes. Parry. Impale. Profit.

Initiate Long Arm. Chuckle to yourself as your 3 teammates proceed to wail on your now prostrated victim.

Charge headlong into any fight taking place near a ledge/spikes. Impale. Profit.

He's great at support roles. Ledging. Isolating people by charge impaling them and carrying them away from the fight.

He also has powerful feats.

dinosaurlicker
09-01-2018, 03:21 AM
I've heard Musha is really trash on PC... but he is still in a good spot on the last win matrix we have from S5 and on console he is still viable and even strong assassins crusher.

He has good anti-gank abilities too.

I play on console and have no trouble with him. I canít parry his lights, but to win you really donít need to. Just block lol

dinosaurlicker
09-01-2018, 03:25 AM
Zerker in S? Maybe on Console for players who have 150ms+ input lag. On PC my 400ms Lights do not open up anybody...



That's sarcasm, right?

Because you think one dimensionally. You donít need lights fast enough to hit somebody to open them up for free. He has an unblockable 50/50 on the second hit of his chain and 400 ms light feints out of it. All of this having hyperarmor. Use a heavy or whiff a light and get your unblockable and open people up. If you canít open people up itís probably because you just spam neutral opener lights on PC.

Oh yea, everybody overlooks this as well. Zerker can dodge out of his attack recovery like Nobushi

Siegfried-Z
09-01-2018, 12:24 PM
I play on console and have no trouble with him. I can’t parry his lights, but to win you really don’t need to. Just block lol

Idon't have trouble too but a good musha mixing softfeint, zone, hardfeint gb and mid-distance dash, full block properly can be a tough match up. i just say he is fine. Not toot stong , not too weak.

voiddp
09-01-2018, 12:47 PM
LB on PC is definately D Tier. He is too slow, his heavy chain is too predicable and slow, recovery frames feel so slow, has NO way to break a turtle, no way to really engage and is entirely reliant on block -> shove which is reactable and punishable. Some assassin's lights can be chained at such a speed it's near impossible to defend and unless you get lucky somehow manage to parry something or get a block shove, most players will just dodge and re-engage anyway.

I can't believe people say he's good in 4v4 becuase you can only really try and get kills from heavies whilst someone is engaging a player. 1v1, nah.



You forgot his bombs, the damn bomberman lol

Baturai
09-01-2018, 12:54 PM
Finally Someone who Knows what he is Talking About. Orochis advantage over other heroes is only his Second Light., sucha bad Rework . Definatly B Tier.

EvoX.
09-01-2018, 02:01 PM
Overall fairly inaccurate, though I don't know if you made this list with 1, 2 or 4v4's in mind.


That's sarcasm, right?

Glad is definitely S-tier in Duels. It's 2's and 4's in which he's nothing special.

FreakinMitch
09-01-2018, 04:57 PM
As a HL main I would say he is probably A tier. His only good opener is Celtic curse and if you dodge it or even better parry it he can be punished heavily. I would say centurian and l, maybe even shaman , should be s tier. Centurion himself is definitely an overpowered character that needs some serious reworks.

dinosaurlicker
09-03-2018, 01:06 AM
As a HL main I would say he is probably A tier. His only good opener is Celtic curse and if you dodge it or even better parry it he can be punished heavily. I would say centurian and l, maybe even shaman , should be s tier. Centurion himself is definitely an overpowered character that needs some serious reworks.

I play both HL and Cent on console at a decently high level

And I guess I need to point out the fact that Centurion is bottom tier unless used to his maximum potential while Highlander is strong all around

HL needs a caber toss tracking nerf, but maybe a buff somewhere else

Cent needs buffs all around. I think his punch should be similar to wardenís SB but uncancelable

Xil_h
09-03-2018, 01:16 AM
Centurion needs his slideshow taken away. Give him multiple different short combinations. But it's just stupid he can 100 to 0 you for making one mistake.
Just happened today playing shinobi into cent. I almost got him dead, had a mistake and was dead in one combo.
Great, gotta love the counterplay potential ¨_¨

dinosaurlicker
09-03-2018, 08:18 AM
Centurion needs his slideshow taken away. Give him multiple different short combinations. But it's just stupid he can 100 to 0 you for making one mistake.
Just happened today playing shinobi into cent. I almost got him dead, had a mistake and was dead in one combo.
Great, gotta love the counterplay potential ¨_¨

Youíre exaggerating. Centís full combo does 60-65 damage, which is about half of the standard health (120). And thatís if he can get it off, itís long and easily cancable in 4s and 2s.

Maybe they could make the inputs in the combo semi difficult for drop potential, or make it do more damage but be much harder to get off

Hereís a suggestion for some easy counterplay:

1. Never parry
2. Dodge when you see orange
3. Be good at CGB
4. Stay away from walls

And Cent is useless. Especially if you do 1 and 3

Charmzzz
09-03-2018, 08:32 AM
Because you think one dimensionally. You don’t need lights fast enough to hit somebody to open them up for free. He has an unblockable 50/50 on the second hit of his chain and 400 ms light feints out of it. All of this having hyperarmor. Use a heavy or whiff a light and get your unblockable and open people up. If you can’t open people up it’s probably because you just spam neutral opener lights on PC.

Oh yea, everybody overlooks this as well. Zerker can dodge out of his attack recovery like Nobushi

A 900ms, highly telegraphed Attack is a 50/50 now? What? You can literally just stand there and wait for the parry window. I have not been hit by this (except gank situations of course) for ages. My enemies rarely fall for the feint-gb option, so all you can do is feint into Light again. Best option as Zerker in my skill bracket is to go for deflects to get some damage in...


Overall fairly inaccurate, though I don't know if you made this list with 1, 2 or 4v4's in mind.



Glad is definitely S-tier in Duels. It's 2's and 4's in which he's nothing special.

Yeah, definitely. 45% Duel Winrate in Season 5, only Valk and Orochi were that low or lower. And they both had their Reworks later on. Now Glad is probably the last place in Duels. MUST be S-Tier because of his Zone, right? ;)

Xil_h
09-03-2018, 09:03 AM
Youíre exaggerating. Centís full combo does 60-65 damage, which is about half of the standard health (120). And thatís if he can get it off, itís long and easily cancable in 4s and 2s.

Maybe they could make the inputs in the combo semi difficult for drop potential, or make it do more damage but be much harder to get off

Hereís a suggestion for some easy counterplay:

1. Never parry
2. Dodge when you see orange
3. Be good at CGB
4. Stay away from walls

And Cent is useless. Especially if you do 1 and 3

I know how to counter play him. I don't often have issues fighting one. But ever now and then there is a good one that will instantly gib you for a mistake.
And I was not exaggerating, he hit me with an attack in between the fights, so I lost ~20 HP, then I misplayed and was dead watching a slideshow.

I don't care for Centurion in 4v4, but in duels it can means you are out in one go if that Centurion knows how to parry.

5. Don't attempt to attack from neutral.

Stare contest

Siegfried-Z
09-03-2018, 09:41 AM
Overall fairly inaccurate, though I don't know if you made this list with 1, 2 or 4v4's in mind.



Glad is definitely S-tier in Duels. It's 2's and 4's in which he's nothing special.

Glad just can't be S-tiers because of his Guard, far to short compare to others assassins.

Charmzz said it but he is nothing special even in duel. In 4v4 he is not good at anti-gank... he is only strong at ganking because of his toe stab...

He is very very weak against half of the roaster almost : Warden, Kensei, Pk, Roch, Zerk, Valk and Musha...

EvoX.
09-03-2018, 09:25 PM
Yeah, definitely. 45% Duel Winrate in Season 5, only Valk and Orochi were that low or lower. And they both had their Reworks later on. Now Glad is probably the last place in Duels. MUST be S-Tier because of his Zone, right? ;)

By that logic he's the 3rd worst hero after pre-rework Valk and Roach. I'm sure that characters like Lawbringer and Shugoki who are above him are like, what, triple S-tier? Get real. Also we're in the middle of Season 7, why are you referring to Season 5 stats?

Most pros agree he's S-tier in duels. Legion and Setmyx, probably the best and second best duelists in this game, already argued about this, and ended up fighting to see if Glad is still up there. Glad won against rework Warden, you can find the vod on Legion's Twitch. Since they can utilize the heroes' potential better than you or I, I'm gonna have to stand by what I said - Gladiator is S-tier in Duels. And yeah, his Zone is that good.


Glad just can't be S-tiers because of his Guard, far to short compare to others assassins.

His guard means little in high levels of play. It doesn't take away much from his standing, at least not enough to move him down a tier.

RexXZ347
09-04-2018, 12:44 AM
I've heard Musha is really trash on PC... but he is still in a good spot on the last win matrix we have from S5 and on console he is still viable and even strong assassins crusher.

He has good anti-gank abilities too.

i am on console (PS4) and on average gameplay even assassins can block my lights. Everyone i play just turtles and wait for me to counter attack. So he needs a major rework.

The_Sentinel_
09-04-2018, 04:28 AM
I'd replace warden with kensei in the S-list.
Nobushi C
Probably also replace HL with Zerk in S
Gladiator A

Siegfried-Z
09-04-2018, 09:38 AM
By that logic he's the 3rd worst hero after pre-rework Valk and Roach. I'm sure that characters like Lawbringer and Shugoki who are above him are like, what, triple S-tier? Get real. Also we're in the middle of Season 7, why are you referring to Season 5 stats?

Most pros agree he's S-tier in duels. Legion and Setmyx, probably the best and second best duelists in this game, already argued about this, and ended up fighting to see if Glad is still up there. Glad won against rework Warden, you can find the vod on Legion's Twitch. Since they can utilize the heroes' potential better than you or I, I'm gonna have to stand by what I said - Gladiator is S-tier in Duels. And yeah, his Zone is that good.



His guard means little in high levels of play. It doesn't take away much from his standing, at least not enough to move him down a tier.


I'd replace warden with kensei in the S-list.
Nobushi C
Probably also replace HL with Zerk in S
Gladiator A

Well first as glad hasn't change since s5 but Roch, Valk has been improved these stats are still a good indicator for him. Plus to that this is the last stats updated we've got so far. So it's mean something, you can't just ignore figures.

About his guard I don't agree.
I dare any of the best players to pick glad and to handle Roch light spam for example... this is a problem.. others assassins guard are far longer.

About warden, sorry but he is far stronger than Kensei now. At least in a duel Warden/Kensei.

Buggy.Blaster
09-04-2018, 10:14 AM
Actually charmzzz its not sarcasm. Its the truth on what I've watched lately in the 1v1 tournaments with the top players playing in. The last 2 I watched were Glad and wardens winning everything and the only characters able to beat the wardens in these were the Gladiators. So no sarcasm. Unless your better than these players I guess I believe them. the tournaments are being played by mostly the top 10 in the ranks GM so yea. The game is not super popular so you have to find these tournaments on streams.

Buggy.Blaster
09-04-2018, 10:22 AM
No disrespect of course Charmzz. I see you posting all over the place in here and for the most part your accurate. Are you in GM? Im not trying to disrespect, just actually curious about your facts. I really have to trust these top players when multiple guys such as setmyx,clutchmeister,ghost, and few others. So if these guys in the top 5 GM who are actually the best players in the world say Gladiator is the best 1v1 hero and then I see Saints dominate setmyx warden in the finals with his glad..its more proof than anything else. If your just looking at stats based on the average player from the devs data percents then yes your 100% correct that glad is lower. But as far as the actual best heroes in the hands of the best players its Glad, No sarcasm. Again no disrespect as your posts are very accurate based on data. I can tell you did you homework on this stuff.

MuscleTech12018
09-04-2018, 11:32 AM
Definitely lol, shaman is S-tier. On PC especially.

Buggy.Blaster
09-05-2018, 09:21 AM
yea she could be S, she seems less op now after people have figured her out.