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dinosaurlicker
08-28-2018, 10:58 PM
Make it so he canít use shoulderbash out of neutral. This is what makes him busted, the 50/50 out of neutral. He has a fast zone and top light and even side lights with an unblockable heavy, so itís not as if this will make him ****. His shoulderbash should only be accessible through chaining it so if he turtles you can turtle as well.

Kaijudub
08-28-2018, 11:42 PM
Sorry but lol.. So successfully block a warden completely out the game?

Ok

He's pretty good where he is imo, but then i would say that

WhydoIdothis21
08-29-2018, 07:50 AM
Sorry but lol.. So successfully block a warden completely out the game?

Ok

He's pretty good where he is imo, but then i would say that

No. Just, no.

Right now Warden is one of the most cancer things in the game. His bash will punish you for nearly everything, and they can just cancel it at will. Their zone is fast, which is just a horrible thing on console, and they have that charging top light that sends them half across the map at light speeds.

Saying Warden is good is like saying Shugoki is good.

But then again, Only a rep 20 on console, so do my opinions really matter?

Charmzzz
08-29-2018, 08:04 AM
Warden is pretty fine imo. On par with the likes of Shaman, Zerker, Kensei and Highlander. Conq is still better Duel-wise with his 500ms SB (700ms for Warden).

iAurelia
08-29-2018, 04:11 PM
You're not the only one who's annoyed with warden, but removing his shoulder bash out of neutral? that would be bad. More like removing his shoulder bash out of light, that would make more sense, I don't see why he's rewarded so much for winning a 50 50 and can repeat it over and over.

MuscleTech12018
08-29-2018, 04:14 PM
Lol kids, shoulder bash is so easily to dodge now expecially without the GB 50/50 ....

Not to mention that ALL THE SIDE ATTACK CLASSES have the upper hand against the shoulder bash.

David_gorda
08-29-2018, 04:17 PM
Lol kids, shoulder bash is so easily to dodge now expecially without the GB 50/50 ....

Not to mention that ALL THE SIDE ATTACK CLASSES have the upper hand against the shoulder bash.
Yeah its not like i can cancel My shoulderbash and guardbreak you if you dodge lol. Maybe learn to play and understand Warden rework before commenting lol ;) its not like Warden can cancel his shoulder bash and parry the dodge attack looooooool :D

iAurelia
08-29-2018, 04:33 PM
Lol kids, shoulder bash is so easily to dodge now expecially without the GB 50/50 ....

Not to mention that ALL THE SIDE ATTACK CLASSES have the upper hand against the shoulder bash.

Yeah, because you totally can't cancel your shoulder bash manually and use guardbreak right after, and no, dodge attacks doesn't directly counter it because warden can feint it, bait it out of you and get easy parry, so your punish would be either double light followed with another shoulder bash spam or top heavy (if the dodge attack is light) followed with unblockable that can be either feinted or let through

Roseguard_Cpt
08-29-2018, 04:40 PM
I've personally been against unblockables from neutral but have preferred cancels and options for characters. Making them more "Shaman-Like" rather than just faster overall. If we get rid of Warden's neutral bash however we need to give something in return, so maybe allow heavies to be fainted into the un-charged bash, which can be canceled into neutral. Just some food for thought

Tyrjo
08-29-2018, 04:46 PM
Make it not possible to cancel it. Once you commit you commit. That will make it less of a spammy move.

Charmzzz
08-29-2018, 05:03 PM
Make it not possible to cancel it. Once you commit you commit. That will make it less of a spammy move.

Hm, then it needs to be faster. 500ms like Conq SB should be fine. ;)

Seriously, a 700ms Bash would be super useless if you cannot cancel it into GB or out of it.

Siegfried-Z
08-29-2018, 05:26 PM
Warden now is the best Char of the game. He has litterally everything :

500ms lights in any directions plus double guaranteed from side
500ms zone
Side heavies has been speed up
Top heavy UB
SB feintable at any point so that you can punish on reaction................................
Strong dmg punish : Parry, takedown, wallsplat
Good OOS pressure : Bash Plus UB
50/50 from neutral
Every moove of his set can chain with his UB
Heavy dash attack almost as fast as light one
Best superior block of the whole game : 40 plus 15 dmg light -> 55DMG for a sup block... which can cahin too of course..

Adding to that, he can enjoy knights feats, he is very very easy to play with, his entire set can allow you to score strong dmg without even taking serious risks...

In my opinion they made him far too strong...

With the rework they should have give him only 500ms lights in any direction and the Dash attack. that's all.
The fact he can chain with UB after everything is stupid as his zone and lights works very well so easily and he doesnt need an UB as he already has a 50/50 Bash from neutral...

dinosaurlicker
08-29-2018, 06:35 PM
All of you who are saying ďWarden is in a good spotĒ are either Warden mains, bad at the game, or both. Hell even that guy who said heís only rep 20 realizes.

Wardenís shoulderbash is a nearly completely safe 50/50 that can result in 40 damage and combo into another one if itís only 18 damage. He can literally just walk up to you and charge it and chances are youíll dodge. At least with conq we can dodge the moment we see orange and not have to guess.

No shoulderbash from neutral. You donít need it as anything other than a crutch. Fast attacks and an unblockable heavy are good enough tools to open people up. Shoulderbash should be a mixup, not a wheelchair. Maybe if they took away your ability to cancel it and charge it it would be fair from neutral. Conq NEEDS a bash from neutral as his lights are super easy to parry even on console and he only has one other unblockable with slow charge time. While I do agree that Conq needs a huge nerf, he only needs value changes. Warden shoulderbash out of neutral is ******ed.

dinosaurlicker
08-29-2018, 06:37 PM
Sorry but lol.. So successfully block a warden completely out the game?

Ok

He's pretty good where he is imo, but then i would say that

And even then you canít block him out of the game lmao... fast attacks + unblockable attack = open

David_gorda
08-29-2018, 06:46 PM
I think they should just make it 600ms not able to cancel. I mean its still give double light or if you dodge to early and he charge it full he get. Top heavy. I think the ability to cancel it makes op to all other Similiar bashes like warlord headbutt or conq shieldbash.

Alustar.
08-29-2018, 06:46 PM
I feel my problems with this here are minor, it's not hard to counter it, but the potential to bait out a dodge then get a free GB are what's the issue. I don't think there is any hero that can both charge a CC ability, as well as soft cancel it to a guard break to punish a dodge, and on top of that at a certain point in the charge he gets hyper armor, making it impossible to punish abuse of the maneuver.
For example, Valkyrie, Nobushi, warlord, Centurion, and Shugoki just off the top of my head cannot cancel their CC abilities. Shaman can, but only in the first few moments of the start up, and can only hard cancel or soft feint to get gap closer. Plus, she had no sort of armor guaranteeing that she will land that and then what ever subsequent attacks she gets free.

Mighty_Mackerel
08-29-2018, 06:56 PM
Make it so he canít use shoulderbash out of neutral. This is what makes him busted, the 50/50 out of neutral. He has a fast zone and top light and even side lights with an unblockable heavy, so itís not as if this will make him ****. His shoulderbash should only be accessible through chaining it so if he turtles you can turtle as well.

As a Warden main myself since launch, I do agree he is a bit too strong right now... but just BARELY. I don't think his SB from neutral should be removed however, my suggestions to make him a little more reasonable are as follows:

1. Make it so he cannot cancel his SB at any point in the charge up.
2. Remove the guaranteed top heavy after a successful charged shoulder bash and just give him a guaranteed side heavy since a charged SB is much easier to land now.
3. Make his top heavy un-blockable chain finisher just a tad bit faster so that way people will rely less on the "spammy" SB and more on the new top heavy combo mix-ups.

As it is now, he is not that hard to deal with as people think. Whenever I face a Warden I always throw out my fastest light attack as soon as I see that shoulder bash, because getting hit by his SB into two-hit side light combo is much less damaging than it used to be which is why Wardens typically always go for the charged SB now. Therefore, once they decide to go for the full charge, my light attack pokes them out of it. Problem solved.

If you're having trouble against un-blockable bashes out of neutral then it's Conqueror who you should be worried about as his shield bash out of neutral is two hundred milliseconds faster than shoulder bash I believe.

iAurelia
08-29-2018, 09:29 PM
All of you who are saying “Warden is in a good spot” are either Warden mains, bad at the game, or both. Hell even that guy who said he’s only rep 20 realizes.

Warden’s shoulderbash is a nearly completely safe 50/50 that can result in 40 damage and combo into another one if it’s only 18 damage. He can literally just walk up to you and charge it and chances are you’ll dodge. At least with conq we can dodge the moment we see orange and not have to guess.

No shoulderbash from neutral. You don’t need it as anything other than a crutch. Fast attacks and an unblockable heavy are good enough tools to open people up. Shoulderbash should be a mixup, not a wheelchair. Maybe if they took away your ability to cancel it and charge it it would be fair from neutral. Conq NEEDS a bash from neutral as his lights are super easy to parry even on console and he only has one other unblockable with slow charge time. While I do agree that Conq needs a huge nerf, he only needs value changes. Warden shoulderbash out of neutral is ******ed.

I do agree with you, but one point where you say that his shoulder bash from neutral should be removed, i mean, to do an unblockable he would first need to start a chain, and you can do that either by gb-ing enemy and attacking or starting it in the air, that's just bad, he needs that shoulder bash, but yeah, it's too strong, it's safe move. He should have the shoulder bash but it should be nerfed, hard. Also removing the shoulder bash mix up after a light wouldn't be a bad idea. As for the neutral shoulder bash, making it so that warden can't cancel it once it reaches the full charge as it was last season would be a good idea, because you can cancel it every time when you realize that enemy will dodge the charged sb.

Arekonator
08-29-2018, 10:00 PM
And even then you can’t block him out of the game lmao... fast attacks + unblockable attack = open

For someone claiming to be high level, you should know that 500ms attack are not "fast", not enough to be a viable opener.

iAurelia
08-29-2018, 11:01 PM
Yeah warden's light attacks are slow enough to be easily parried while performed out of neutral

RexXZ347
08-29-2018, 11:46 PM
Warden right now is at S tier. In order to make him A tier make his shoulder bash not drain stamina. Or if it drains stamina, let his shoulder bash consume 60% of his own stamina. Then he's good to go.

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 02:14 AM
I do agree with you, but one point where you say that his shoulder bash from neutral should be removed, i mean, to do an unblockable he would first need to start a chain, and you can do that either by gb-ing enemy and attacking or starting it in the air, that's just bad, he needs that shoulder bash, but yeah, it's too strong, it's safe move. He should have the shoulder bash but it should be nerfed, hard. Also removing the shoulder bash mix up after a light wouldn't be a bad idea. As for the neutral shoulder bash, making it so that warden can't cancel it once it reaches the full charge as it was last season would be a good idea, because you can cancel it every time when you realize that enemy will dodge the charged sb.

Nobody realizes that heavies can also chain even on block. Let a side heavy rip then go into the top unblockable. Feint it if they keep parrying the side heavy

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 02:16 AM
For someone claiming to be high level, you should know that 500ms attack are not "fast", not enough to be a viable opener.

You donít need to actually hit them. The zone chains on block I believe, and for console players, itís highly unlikely itís getting parried unless both players have very low ping and decent monitors when you factor in the high input delay on console

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 02:49 AM
This thread should be called
How to Brake Warden Again as before in season 2!

Warden is Reworked for a short Time NoOne of you guys wanna adapt to it!
Funny thing is anyone here Mention the Broken Classes or Balance suggestions for some moves !?

Kensei ZoneAttack? Its Fine!?!
Shaman ? Shes Completely Balanced!?✌😊
Highlander Kick to Grab spam? No issues!

Raider ZoneAttack Damage? Its Fine!
Especially in 4v4 unlock tech!

Lawbringer Warp PinHit?
Conq Recovery Time?
Valkyrie Broken console Class Rework?

Nono just Forget about them all!

The Real Problem is Warden! Becouse he is Viable now Vs all Broken Things!
The SB of Warden?
Get your sh.. together and Time your Dodge right!

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 02:58 AM
You don’t need to actually hit them. The zone chains on block I believe, and for console players, it’s highly unlikely it’s getting parried unless both players have very low ping and decent monitors when you factor in the high input delay on console

You dont even need to parry them. Save for zone, just blocking will stop the chain and prevent you from getting to the unblockable finisher. And burning half of your stamina every time you want to just try and throw it out is just, eh... Besides, the finisher is 1100ms and parryable after the feint window.

Also dont know why we are now talking about consoles specifically. That being said, if he decides to just sit and block 500ms attacks, Average Joe can do it all day long without breaking a sweat, even easier on PC.
Something could be done about SB, but removing it from neutral is simply bad idea.

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 03:12 AM
You dont even need to parry them. Save for zone, just blocking will stop the chain and prevent you from getting to the unblockable finisher. And burning half of your stamina every time you want to just try and throw it out is just, eh... Besides, the finisher is 1100ms and parryable after the feint window.

Also dont know why we are now talking about consoles specifically. That being said, if he decides to just sit and block 500ms attacks, Average Joe can do it all day long without breaking a sweat, even easier on PC.
Something could be done about SB, but removing it from neutral is simply bad idea.

Orochi gets along just fine with 500ms openers and doesnít even have an unblockable to chain into, so I donít see how this is a problem

A neutral high damage versatile 50/50 is still broken. They should just make it so it can chain from any attack, so then you guys canít ***** about people turtling against your 500ms attacks and unblockable top heavy. Sorry to break it to you, but neutral unblockables as versatile as Wardenís have no place in this game. It literally just promotes turtling. 90% of the turtles I see are Wardens because they can just shoulderbash 50/50 from neutral with no counterplay because of how it can be canceled.

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 03:22 AM
Orochi gets along just fine with 500ms openers and doesn’t even have an unblockable to chain into, so I don’t see how this is a problem

A neutral high damage versatile 50/50 is still broken. They should just make it so it can chain from any attack, so then you guys can’t ***** about people turtling against your 500ms attacks and unblockable top heavy. Sorry to break it to you, but neutral unblockables as versatile as Warden’s have no place in this game. It literally just promotes turtling. 90% of the turtles I see are Wardens because they can just shoulderbash 50/50 from neutral with no counterplay because of how it can be canceled.

On consoles maybe, on PC hardly. I rarely ever see orochi to land a light opener without parry or kiai beforehand. Orochi offense is still quite poor, definitelly not "just fine". Literally only character that could (barely) get away with 500ms lights as opener was PK and even that solely because poorly telegraphed animations. But thats beside the point.

I agree that getting 40 dmg top heavy from easily baited premature dodge is a tad too much and SB in general could use some tweaking. But I am still convinced that locking his SB behind chains is fundamentally poor idea.

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 03:33 AM
Premature dodge? Give it more time till it become Mature!
Highlander Free50+Hits are ok?
You guys wont get used to it becouse its annoying!
You dont or even barely play Warden just thinking its Annoying !
Wont adapt!
Wont get used to it!
Welcome to the Club when Warden Mains were the Fu**ed Up dudes Vs almost every class in the game!

Where is the problem to dodge a full charged SB? I dodge it regular and often it hits! You the same people who cryd about SB back in Season 2!

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 03:40 AM
On consoles maybe, on PC hardly. I rarely ever see orochi to land a light opener without parry or kiai beforehand. Orochi offense is still quite poor, definitelly not "just fine". Literally only character that could (barely) get away with 500ms lights as opener was PK and even that solely because poorly telegraphed animations. But thats beside the point.

I agree that getting 40 dmg top heavy from easily baited premature dodge is a tad too much and SB in general could use some tweaking. But I am still convinced that locking his SB behind chains is fundamentally poor idea.

Valkís sweep only gives 35 damage, is locked behind chains, and canít be canceled or charged in any way.

Centís punch is locked behind attacks/chains and only does like 15 damage (charged punch will never land without the charged heavy unless theyíre corner trapped.

Valk is in a great spot (ideally where game balance should be based at imo, if not even lower at Nobushiís level) and her unblockables are locked behind chains (bash is iffy, but imo having to feint a heavy counts as being locked)

Cent is considered broken by noobs because of his ďinfiniteĒ combo with the easily dodgable punch that isnít even a 50/50. Warden would be the same except better because his would be a cancelable 50/50

Ofc both are considered **** by pros, but thatís because chip damage is near nonexistent. If chip was at 40-50% (as it should be) then both of these heroes would be viable as ****. Even now theyíre good strong picks if the player is skilled. Warden is a broken OP pick even if the player is dog****.

My point is that Warden would become a good strong pick with SKILL if this change was made, just like Valk and Cent.

Imagine Centurion. Except his charged punch has tracking, range, and gives more damage. His uncharged punch gives more damage as well. Both of these are cancelable.

This is Warden without neutral SB. And that is a balanced hero.

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 03:41 AM
Practice_Timing_Dodgable!=
Annoying!✌😉right?

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 03:44 AM
Valk good Strong Pick with Skill! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAH

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 03:48 AM
Warden is a Broken Op For Everyone just Like Valkyrie!
The Rework is Two Weeks Young !
Practice Adapt Refine Yourself!
Have i mentioned SoftFeint spam?
You Do got some Reps on her dont ya?

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 03:50 AM
Moth Fu**ing Puss ys

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 04:26 AM
Warden is a Broken Op For Everyone just Like Valkyrie!
The Rework is Two Weeks Young !
Practice Adapt Refine Yourself!
Have i mentioned SoftFeint spam?
You Do got some Reps on her dont ya?

First of all, I have 0 reps on valk lol

Second of all, youíre bad at the game. Leave the forums

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 04:39 AM
Hahahah Right!
Im Bad at the game Just Like Valk is a Skill Pick!

Koncrissant
08-30-2018, 04:40 AM
P-u-ss-y-s!

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 05:10 AM
.

Just by doing that, he would instantly drop to the levels of warlord, ara or LB as far as punishes go. Not being able to punish (some) bashes on sucessful dodge would be huge nerf, and unneeded imo. Further, he would need more ways to get into his chain, just from light is too restrictive. I would personally prefer limiting the window to cancel, if he decides to go for charged bash, make him commit, instead of being able to instantly NOPE out at any point. Possibly tweak damage payoff, but i dont think its even necessary. I prefer making it more punishable and thus risky instead.

I hope you are not serious when you say that cent is "good strong pick with skill". Because he is neither, outside of stomping noobs. To make him serviceable, you need to turtle excesivelly vs anyone half-decent and then you are at mercy of opponents doing stuff thats even punishable for you.

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 05:12 AM
Just by doing that, he would instantly drop to the levels of warlord, ara or LB as far as punishes go. Not being able to punish (some) bashes on sucessful dodge would be huge nerf, and unneeded imo. Further, he would need more ways to get into his chain, just from light is too restrictive. I would personally prefer limiting the window to cancel, if he decides to go for charged bash, make him commit, instead of being able to instantly NOPE out at any point. Possibly tweak damage payoff, but i dont think its even necessary. I prefer making it more punishable and thus risky instead.

I hope you are not serious when you say that cent is "good strong pick with skill". Because he is neither, outside of stomping noobs. To make him serviceable, you need to turtle excesivelly vs anyone half-decent and then you are at mercy of opponents doing stuff thats even punishable for you.

Clearly youíve never played a fantastic cent or played cent fantastically. Look on youtube, there are plenty that play cent at a highevel and can **** on stronger picks.

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 05:20 AM
Clearly you’ve never played a fantastic cent or played cent fantastically. Look on youtube, there are plenty that play cent at a highevel and can **** on stronger picks.

At "high level" you can completely shut down anything cent can do as long as you are able to dodge his kick, Any character can be "good" and walk all over others, but if there is massive skillgap requied, then we arent exactly on equal footing, are we?
Any character can be "fantastic" if his player is sufficiently better than opponent, but that doesnt mean the character is good. Since S1, there were few exceptional kenseis running around, that stomped with ease, but that doesnt mean the kensei wasnt hot trash.

dinosaurlicker
08-30-2018, 06:55 AM
At "high level" you can completely shut down anything cent can do as long as you are able to dodge his kick, Any character can be "good" and walk all over others, but if there is massive skillgap requied, then we arent exactly on equal footing, are we?
Any character can be "fantastic" if his player is sufficiently better than opponent, but that doesnt mean the character is good. Since S1, there were few exceptional kenseis running around, that stomped with ease, but that doesnt mean the kensei wasnt hot trash.

I meant in same player level fights, but youíve clearly never seen a really good cent in your skill range if youíre still disagreeing. Thereís one guy on youtube who plays cent at grandmaster level and ****s on meta picks, I suggest looking at that. I never said he didnít need buffs, I said he was a strong viable pick if played correctly

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 07:08 AM
I meant in same player level fights, but you’ve clearly never seen a really good cent in your skill range if you’re still disagreeing. There’s one guy on youtube who plays cent at grandmaster level and ****s on meta picks, I suggest looking at that. I never said he didn’t need buffs, I said he was a strong viable pick if played correctly

I have seen a few really good cents, but that doesnt change the fact that he is not a good character. There is always a group of people who perform well with weaker characters, but they are by definition an exception. It does not mean the character is strong.
You are mixing apples with oranges here.

KotoKuraken
08-30-2018, 07:45 AM
The problem with Warden's rework is that he is now back to being a Shoulderman, instead of a Swordsman.
1) You shouldn't be punished with 40 damage because you dodged away from the Shoulderbash
2) You shouldn't have to be punished because a Warden flickered his Shoulderbash, cancelled it, and immediately did another bash that caught you on your backdodge
3) Warden shouldn't be able to travel so far with a Shoulderbash

Do what people have been asking for since Day 1: make Warden's bash unfeintable. Just make it a bash like everyone else's that cannot be feinted like everyone else. Warden has returned to the cancer he was when the top players spammed shoulder bash feints, except now he has a crapton of range with it and can feint it at his leisure.

Warden has pretty much returned back to the same broken state he was in a whole year ago. This footage from over a year ago looks pretty much like every Warden I've faced in ranked at Diamond level this Season: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETgDKRUlgc&t=1s

ChampionRuby50g
08-30-2018, 08:04 AM
I think Koncrissant has some issues...

Siegfried-Z
08-30-2018, 09:28 AM
Valk good Strong Pick with Skill! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAH

First, yes she is, at least more than warden.
Second, you gonna be bann man, that's just a videogame, calm down and try to discuss normally.


I think Koncrissant has some issues...

You killed me hahaha

Ubi-Jimothy
08-30-2018, 10:50 AM
Locking this thread since it's gone completely off topic and turned into bickering, yet again.

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. You're welcome to debate characters, but insulting one another and throwing out flames just because one person thinks differently to you is completely unacceptable.