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RexXZ347
08-28-2018, 05:28 PM
It's unreactable, it is fast that can dodge a 400ms attack, even if you feint to dodge the time is never enough and it's a sure hit. After the bash is a sure light. We know that conqueror shield bash in neutral is broken because spamming it is made by prediction. Then these awesome developers added a dodge shield bash to his kit. Wow, just amazing. Are these developers playing their own game or do they just made it and let others play? Because the latter is stupid. Clearly the devs are incompetent in enhancing this game. It's more than a year and there are these bugs, lags, connectivity issues, revenge BS, and unbalanceness going on. Yeah they do rework but look at the conqueror and warden. They made them cancer. I am not complaining on the whole warden and conqueror kit. I am just complaining because they already have good kits and still give them cancerous moves. Why not buff/rework low tier heroes so that they can compete in battles? I heard dlc heroes aren't gonna get a rework soon. Yeah, lets wait 2 years for them to have a rework. I mean, come on devs, what are you doing there? We paid this game to have fun. Not have a broken *** game.

Charmzzz
08-28-2018, 05:33 PM
100th Thread about this topic. Yet, for a whole season, nothing was done. We all know that Conq is, by a good amount, the best Duelist due to his SB.

RexXZ347
08-28-2018, 05:53 PM
100th Thread about this topic. Yet, for a whole season, nothing was done. We all know that Conq is, by a good amount, the best Duelist due to his SB.

I was just frustrated, there is this low rank conqueror who just spams shield bash at me and always won. I tried feinting my attacks to dodge immediately but i still get caught by his dodged shield bash. I mean, conqueror is nigh invulnerable in 1v1 by just spamming his shield bash.

Charmzzz
08-28-2018, 05:57 PM
I was just frustrated, there is this low rank conqueror who just spams shield bash at me and always won. I tried feinting my attacks to dodge immediately but i still get caught by his dodged shield bash. I mean, conqueror is nigh invulnerable in 1v1 by just spamming his shield bash.

Yup, he is. We all know that. His recovery is too fast, it is mostly unpunishable and the best mixup since his rework.

RexXZ347
08-28-2018, 06:04 PM
Yup, he is. We all know that. His recovery is too fast, it is mostly unpunishable and the best mixup since his rework.

are the devs listening to this? Conqueror is S tier. They should tone him down.

UbiJurassic
08-28-2018, 06:29 PM
are the devs listening to this? Conqueror is S tier. They should tone him down.

We're certainly aware that Conqueror is in a very strong state currently and the balance team is looking at him. Should we have any upcoming balance changes to share, we'll let everyone know!

NHLGoldenKnight
08-28-2018, 07:51 PM
Problem with Conq is that his kit is very useful in 1v1 and it can be frustrating for many players, however he is nothing special in 4v4, at least based on my experience. Very predictable, only few moves, very short range.

So, in order to balance him properly, he shouldn't just get more nerfs which would make him useless. When complaining about Conq, keep in mind that he was nothing for many seasons. There are other heroes with much more frustrating kit yet I don't see many asking for nerfs. But as soon as one Heavy is performing well, everyone loses their minds.

As long as his moveset is extremely limited, I wouldn't nerf him any further. Heavy class is in pretty bad shape. Shugo is almost useless and step child of Ubisoft developers and Warlord is just ok, but slowly falling behind.

Also, keep in mind that having a shield should give you something extra and like in real life, fighting someone who has a shield would be frustrating and challenging. That is why Warlord or Valk are having easier time fighting Conq than most other heroes. Again, based on my experience. So, if you are trying to dominate Conq by playing as 90 lbs woman wearing rugs and rusty kitchen knife, you are doing something wrong.

David_gorda
08-28-2018, 07:58 PM
Conq is s tier in duels but he feels really bad in 4vs4 especially with gear stats. Reason is most Of his damage comes from shieldbash and it feeds opponent revenge so you cant even winba 1vs1 before opponent gets revenge. Slow movement speed and poor ganking Class aswell.

Muitcha-melodia
08-28-2018, 09:43 PM
Problem with Conq is that his kit is very useful in 1v1 and it can be frustrating for many players, however he is nothing special in 4v4, at least based on my experience. Very predictable, only few moves, very short range.

So, in order to balance him properly, he shouldn't just get more nerfs which would make him useless. When complaining about Conq, keep in mind that he was nothing for many seasons. There are other heroes with much more frustrating kit yet I don't see many asking for nerfs. But as soon as one Heavy is performing well, everyone loses their minds.

As long as his moveset is extremely limited, I wouldn't nerf him any further. Heavy class is in pretty bad shape. Shugo is almost useless and step child of Ubisoft developers and Warlord is just ok, but slowly falling behind.

Also, keep in mind that having a shield should give you something extra and like in real life, fighting someone who has a shield would be frustrating and challenging. That is why Warlord or Valk are having easier time fighting Conq than most other heroes. Again, based on my experience. So, if you are trying to dominate Conq by playing as 90 lbs woman wearing rugs and rusty kitchen knife, you are doing something wrong.

Dude conqueror is one of the worst matchs for the warlord, same goes for the reworked warden. Warlord is far from ok, after the huge nerfs on his feats and damage he is not on a good spot on 4x4 modes as well.

Vakris_One
08-28-2018, 10:26 PM
Problem with Conq is that his kit is very useful in 1v1 and it can be frustrating for many players, however he is nothing special in 4v4, at least based on my experience. Very predictable, only few moves, very short range.

So, in order to balance him properly, he shouldn't just get more nerfs which would make him useless. When complaining about Conq, keep in mind that he was nothing for many seasons. There are other heroes with much more frustrating kit yet I don't see many asking for nerfs. But as soon as one Heavy is performing well, everyone loses their minds.

As long as his moveset is extremely limited, I wouldn't nerf him any further. Heavy class is in pretty bad shape. Shugo is almost useless and step child of Ubisoft developers and Warlord is just ok, but slowly falling behind.

Also, keep in mind that having a shield should give you something extra and like in real life, fighting someone who has a shield would be frustrating and challenging. That is why Warlord or Valk are having easier time fighting Conq than most other heroes. Again, based on my experience. So, if you are trying to dominate Conq by playing as 90 lbs woman wearing rugs and rusty kitchen knife, you are doing something wrong.
1. Realism went out the window in this game pretty much from day one so it's patently pointless to insinuate that Conq should somehow have an advantage over someone else based on their weapons or their body size. As is entertaining the notion that characters with shields should get "something extra" in a video game where realism plays no part in the balancing of the fighting mechanics.

2. Conq literally just needs his shield bash recovery tuned down to normal levels like everybody else has to deal with. This shouldn't even be considered a nerf since it is basically about putting Conq on a level playing field with everyone else. It's unfair that he is the only character in the game that doesn't have to deal with any kind of recovery time from a bash attack. Either give everyone zero recovery on bashes and dodge attacks or give everyone similar recovery times like with the dodge recovery normalisation. There is no option where one hero is the exception to the rule if the developers wish this game to be called a competitive and properly balanced game.

3. His move set is not limited at all. He has an infinite light/heavy chain that rivals Aramusha's. He has the best all block in the game. He has the best superior block option select in the game (because it is a heavy and he can parry with it if he miscalculates). He has the 2nd best option select zone in the game. He has extremely good OOS pressure and a good way of putting his opponent into OOS and keeping him there. His move set has both depth and it defines his personality as a character - not many other reworked heroes can say that. He has a full kit to use at his disposal and the fact that 90% of the time he only needs to use shield bash to win is a problem with how broken shield bash recovery is, not with how "limited" his kit is. His kit is one of the best and most fleshed out among the heroes.

Hormly
08-28-2018, 11:05 PM
Patience, I'm sure in another 6-12 months the devs will have enough data to nerf the SB 😂

Chobbsy99
08-29-2018, 01:22 AM
Isn't it being nerfed already? https://youtu.be/N5lkRuYmkss

RexXZ347
08-29-2018, 01:38 AM
I just want the dodge to shield bash removed from him and he's ok. Let his neutral shield bash stay. Non skilled players are exploiting his SB because it's unreactable. Profit. Removing that isn't a nerf as Vakris said. It will just put him in A tier. No one should be in S tier. All must be in A tier.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-29-2018, 02:26 AM
1. Realism went out the window in this game pretty much from day one so it's patently pointless to insinuate that Conq should somehow have an advantage over someone else based on their weapons or their body size. As is entertaining the notion that characters with shields should get "something extra" in a video game where realism plays no part in the balancing of the fighting mechanics.

2. Conq literally just needs his shield bash recovery tuned down to normal levels like everybody else has to deal with. This shouldn't even be considered a nerf since it is basically about putting Conq on a level playing field with everyone else. It's unfair that he is the only character in the game that doesn't have to deal with any kind of recovery time from a bash attack. Either give everyone zero recovery on bashes and dodge attacks or give everyone similar recovery times like with the dodge recovery normalisation. There is no option where one hero is the exception to the rule if the developers wish this game to be called a competitive and properly balanced game.

3. His move set is not limited at all. He has an infinite light/heavy chain that rivals Aramusha's. He has the best all block in the game. He has the best superior block option select in the game (because it is a heavy and he can parry with it if he miscalculates). He has the 2nd best option select zone in the game. He has extremely good OOS pressure and a good way of putting his opponent into OOS and keeping him there. His move set has both depth and it defines his personality as a character - not many other reworked heroes can say that. He has a full kit to use at his disposal and the fact that 90% of the time he only needs to use shield bash to win is a problem with how broken shield bash recovery is, not with how "limited" his kit is. His kit is one of the best and most fleshed out among the heroes.

Have to disagree with you.

1. If game is not completely realistic that doesn't mean that it should be completely unrealistic. Yes, shield should give you extra advantage otherwise what's the point? You can have heroes armed with toothpick dealing devastating damage and it would be justified because it is a video game?

2. Putting Conq on a level playing field? You mean like it was done with Shaman, Berserker, maybe Highlander? Most of the heroes have some unique strength for example Shinobi can ledge you from 20 yards away and he is the only one having ranged attack, shouldn't he be put on level playing field? Or I can come up with at least 5 more examples. Conq and Warlord are only heroes having proper shield and they should benefit from that.

3. I am not sure why you think his kit isn't limited but it actually is. Just look at his moveset and compare it to most of other heroes. He barely has 5 options. His infinite chain is not equal of Aramusha's because likes of Aramusha or Berserker have better faint options. Also, they manage stamina better and their "fire rate" is better. His zone is no way second best by any standards except for defensive ones. Unlike other zone attacks, Conq is too passive and stationery. His zone is a good "get off me" tool but almost useless in offensive vs moving targets.

He is now not more than a mid tier in 4v4. Nerfing him further for the sake of very limited 1v1 mode would result in him becoming thrash tier in 4v4, something he was for many seasons. Unless he would get more unique moves or combo options, I am strongly against him being nerfed. Heavy class has suffered enough already. Geez.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-29-2018, 02:39 AM
Dude conqueror is one of the worst matchs for the warlord, same goes for the reworked warden. Warlord is far from ok, after the huge nerfs on his feats and damage he is not on a good spot on 4x4 modes as well.

As someone who just started to learn Warlord, he is very good actually. I really like the way he moves and fights, one of rare heroes with realistic combat style. Very good at counter attack, hyperarmor, excellent health pool. Yes, he could use slight buff, but he is not that bad IF you use his full kit. If you don't, then you end up at the same place like many Gladiator players. Screaming how he is a bottom tier while trying to win fights by just using his zone and toe stab.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-29-2018, 03:41 AM
Conq literally just needs his shield bash recovery tuned down to normal levels like everybody else has to deal with. This shouldn't even be considered a nerf since it is basically about putting Conq on a level playing field with everyone else. It's unfair that he is the only character in the game that doesn't have to deal with any kind of recovery time from a bash attack.

All Conqueror bashes have a 700ms miss recovery. It only seems like forward bash has a quicker recovery because it's the duration is much lower than shield bash mixup or shield uppercut. And even then it's still 100% punishable with a side dodge GB if the reaction is quick enough or it is predicted.


3. His move set is not limited at all. He has an infinite light/heavy chain that rivals Aramusha's.

Wait I thought Aramusha was total D Tier garbage on the offensive front? Now suddenly the infinite light/heavy chain is great because Conqueror has a slower version of it? Already sounds like you're just grasping at straws.


He has the best all block in the game.

First off, this is a defensive move so I don't see how it compensates for a nerf on Conqueror's offense, but nonetheless, Conqueror's all block is garbage now that it takes 600ms to activate. It was always predictive defense but now only Nostradamus could use it consistently.


He has the best superior block option select in the game (because it is a heavy and he can parry with it if he miscalculates).

Superior block on heavy has a 2 frame window on console to actually block. This isn't even part of the moveset, just a property on all Conqueror heavy attacks.


He has the 2nd best option select zone in the game.

And yet easily parried because it's only 600ms and always comes from the same direction. Also it's going to put Conqueror nearly if not completely into OOS. A lot of people make a big deal out of this, but apparently have never even tried it in-game.

Also notice how all your points are defense related and the one that wasn't so far is comparing Conqueror to Aramusha? It's almost like Conqueror's moveset is indeed limited.


He has extremely good OOS pressure and a good way of putting his opponent into OOS and keeping him there. His move set has both depth and it defines his personality as a character - not many other reworked heroes can say that.

His OOS pressure exclusively relies on shield bash. It's also been nerfed with an undocumented change like allblock because you can no longer get two heavies after a throw.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-29-2018, 03:51 AM
It's unfair that he is the only character in the game that doesn't have to deal with any kind of recovery time from a bash attack. Either give everyone zero recovery on bashes and dodge attacks or give everyone similar recovery times like with the dodge recovery normalisation. There is no option where one hero is the exception to the rule if the developers wish this game to be called a competitive and properly balanced game.

Oh also I'm patiently awaiting Vakris's thread telling the developers to give Conqueror a standard feint because we just want an "even playing field" (total newspeak by the way) and no hero is the exception to the rule.

Charmzzz
08-29-2018, 08:01 AM
There comes the Conq Main to defend his guy. There is a reason why Conq topped the Duel Win Charts with a whooping 60% - even the PK never had a Winrate this high.

What Vakris said is actually a very good analysis. Dash recovery + GB is just too long to punish him with that. Side dodge recovery is 600ms across the board. GB is 400ms. I don't know why but I have never managed to punish him with a GB. I should have 200ms time to actually do, but I guess latency and input lag prevent that from happening. The only way to punish him is to use a dodge attack - happy baiting...

All Conqs I am facing just use SB / dodge baits for free GB with an occasional Zone. Literally they dont need anything else to be super effective. SB being 500ms is a JOKE and must be nerfed.

originalmofling
08-29-2018, 10:39 AM
Conqueror was my main character from the start. Since the patch i feel that i am a completely disaster with him. His only good moves are the shield bash, and they don't make any damage in the opponent. His all guard (press down) is slow and predictable... Well all his moves are predictable, because he is very slow, he runs out of stamina very soon and, in general terms, i feel that he is a bad character. I miss his perfect guard from old times.

Sorry if I don't use the correct words for attacks and movements. English is not my first language.

Charmzzz
08-29-2018, 10:53 AM
Conqueror was my main character from the start. Since the patch i feel that i am a completely disaster with him. His only good moves are the shield bash, and they don't make any damage in the opponent. His all guard (press down) is slow and predictable... Well all his moves are predictable, because he is very slow, he runs out of stamina very soon and, in general terms, i feel that he is a bad character. I miss his perfect guard from old times.

Sorry if I don't use the correct words for attacks and movements. English is not my first language.

Conq is considered S-Tier in Duel and A-Tier in Dominion by Pro Players. He had a 60% Duel Winrate last season. He is overtuned, if you don't do well on him you would do worse on other Characters.

ChampionRuby50g
08-29-2018, 11:07 AM
Conqueror was my main character from the start. Since the patch i feel that i am a completely disaster with him. His only good moves are the shield bash, and they don't make any damage in the opponent. His all guard (press down) is slow and predictable... Well all his moves are predictable, because he is very slow, he runs out of stamina very soon and, in general terms, i feel that he is a bad character. I miss his perfect guard from old times.

Sorry if I don't use the correct words for attacks and movements. English is not my first language.

Itís not exactly true that his bash doesnít deal damage. In duels/brawls yes, but in 4v4 he has a feat that deals 10 damage on connected SB. Itís killed me before.

originalmofling
08-29-2018, 11:30 AM
Conq is considered S-Tier in Duel and A-Tier in Dominion by Pro Players. He had a 60% Duel Winrate last season. He is overtuned, if you don't do well on him you would do worse on other Characters.

Well, I'm not a Pro Player... Just a random guy who plays videogames for fun. My reflexes are not as good as they were (i'm in my late thirties), and I feel sorry, because the conqueror is the cooler character in the game (that armor, that shield and that FLAIL... I love that weapon). I'm playing for a year now, and is the only character that i have unlocked. And now I'm feel completely useless with him.

I just have started with a regular Kensei, and is a lot better for me. Faster, damager, with a lot movements and tricks. It is fun to use, but it's another samurai, and there are a lot of them.

The_B0G_
08-29-2018, 01:31 PM
Well, I'm not a Pro Player... Just a random guy who plays videogames for fun. My reflexes are not as good as they were (i'm in my late thirties), and I feel sorry, because the conqueror is the cooler character in the game (that armor, that shield and that FLAIL... I love that weapon). I'm playing for a year now, and is the only character that i have unlocked. And now I'm feel completely useless with him.

I just have started with a regular Kensei, and is a lot better for me. Faster, damager, with a lot movements and tricks. It is fun to use, but it's another samurai, and there are a lot of them.

Some heroes suit your play style better than others, for instance, I love the way HL looks (besides the overkill on berets) but I can't play him well enough to combat light spammers because light attacks are all too fast for me to to land his crushing counters with and his light attacks are too slow to use as a counter. So even though I love the way he looks and plays, he isn't a good character for me in general.


I'm stuck playing characters with a full block because my reflexes aren't top notch. I play WL and LB (no full block on LB but his block shove makes up for it) and I've been trying to learn Aramusha.

If you like Conq, you may like WL, I can give you a quick run through on how to use him on ps4 if you're on that platform, my PSN is the same as on here, just put Forum member in the comment when you send the request.

Vakris_One
08-29-2018, 02:35 PM
Ah, the premiere toxic forum Conq main himself appears to defend his baby against all logic and reason.


All Conqueror bashes have a 700ms miss recovery. It only seems like forward bash has a quicker recovery because it's the duration is much lower than shield bash mixup or shield uppercut. And even then it's still 100% punishable with a side dodge GB if the reaction is quick enough or it is predicted.
This is hilarious in how obviously biased it is. We all know what is meant when we talk about Conq shield bash. It is his dodge into shield bash that is broken so please don't try to act dumb on purpose. Nobody can punish Conq's dodge into shield bash with a GB but you already know that. Only characters with a dodge strike can punish Conq's shield bash. Tell me please which other characters' bash recoveries are immune to everything except a dodge strike? Not that you'll ever admit this publicly.



Wait I thought Aramusha was total D Tier garbage on the offensive front? Now suddenly the infinite light/heavy chain is great because Conqueror has a slower version of it? Already sounds like you're just grasping at straws.
Did I say anything about it being great? Talk about grasping at straws man, you've got two handfulls of them right here. I said he has an infinite chain like Ara. Here's the thing though, unlike Ara who has nothing much else the Conq has a better kit in both offense and defense than Aramusha. Wipe those crocodile tears away my friend, nobody is buying your low quality subterfuge.



First off, this is a defensive move so I don't see how it compensates for a nerf on Conqueror's offense, but nonetheless, Conqueror's all block is garbage now that it takes 600ms to activate. It was always predictive defense but now only Nostradamus could use it consistently.
1. It's a part of his kit therefore I noted it down to dispute the "limited kit" claim. It's no use pretending he doesn't have the best all guard in the game which is an objective fact. Well, unless you're biased Conq main grasping at straws that is :)

2. I'm surprised you missed the part where the devs said they will be reverting the nerf to 600ms activation because it was unintended. I think they already have done so if I'm not mistaken. Still, a very surprising omission from the forum's most prominent Conq main.



Superior block on heavy has a 2 frame window on console to actually block. This isn't even part of the moveset, just a property on all Conqueror heavy attacks.
1. It's part of his kit.
2. It's the best superior block move in the game (best damage, best chances of converting to a parry from a mistake).



And yet easily parried because it's only 600ms and always comes from the same direction. Also it's going to put Conqueror nearly if not completely into OOS. A lot of people make a big deal out of this, but apparently have never even tried it in-game.
It's the ultimate safe zone in a gank due to him having all guard and it's the third best zone in the game after PK and Glad. I'm not saying it needs a nerf as I think it's fine for what it is I just noted it down as part of his kit. I'm picking up a lot of over defensiveness in your responces as if you deem a simple breakdown of the Conq's kit as an attack on the character. Put your bias away please and realise that all I did was note down his kit options. The only thing I feel needs to be tuned down is his neutral shield bash recovery. Honestly, if you think that giving him the same recovery time as EVERYBODY else in the roster is the thing that will destroy him then you're probably not as good a Conq player as you might think and it would be a good time for you to learn to use the rest of his kit effectively.



Also notice how all your points are defense related and the one that wasn't so far is comparing Conqueror to Aramusha? It's almost like Conqueror's moveset is indeed limited.
He has good options for both attack and defense, certainly better attack options and pressure than some DLC heroes like Aramusha, Cent and Shinobi. Heck, he's got better attack pressure than Orochi, a reworked assassin. Obviously his defense options are stronger as he is the poster child for defence after all. However his neutral shield bash is a potent enough attacking tool and will remain so even after normalising his recovery. Or are you saying he needs a broken move to be viable? Because if so then Conq doesn't deserve to be as high tier as he is if all he has going for him is the abuse of a single overtuned move.



His OOS pressure exclusively relies on shield bash. It's also been nerfed with an undocumented change like allblock because you can no longer get two heavies after a throw.
Lol, whose OOS pressure doesn't rely on an unblockable bash or grab mechanic??? Highlander and Cobq are the top 2 OOS pressure monsters in the game. Again, save the crocodile tears for someone who hasn't been around on this forum since day 1 and knows about your Conq biased agenda.

Him not getting two heavies after a throw was also acknowledged by the devs as a bug. Another very curious omission of knowledge from you...


Oh also I'm patiently awaiting Vakris's thread telling the developers to give Conqueror a standard feint because we just want an "even playing field" (total newspeak by the way) and no hero is the exception to the rule.
What are you even talking about here? How are you even comparing a near zero recovery time with a non standard way to feint? Hate to break it to you but the secret is out on Conq's ability to use full block to generate a hard feint. Crazy right? Them non-Conq main plebs knowing the stuff we use to bamboozle noobs with. Nice try as always ArchDuke :)

RexXZ347
08-30-2018, 12:05 AM
Shield bash is punishable? Everytime i dodged a conq shield bash he can always follow it up with a light attack. And if he didn't follow it up he can always CGB. Unless the conqueror is a noob. ArchDukeInstinct you can defend your main but don't be biased when he's S tier.

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 02:31 AM
I was able to punish shieldbash with GB pretty consistently, back before the side-dodge recovery normalization. It was pretty easy with 500ms recovery. But with now normalized 600ms side recovery, you just cant do it on reaction anymore. And with the huge delayability window, doing it on prediction is just wishfull thinking.
Some characters simply cant punish it at all, and there is literally nothing stopping conq from spamming it over and over untill they eventually miss the dodge enough times to kill them.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-30-2018, 03:11 AM
There comes the Conq Main to defend his guy.

And here comes discount Red Riding Hood to cry about their newfound irrelevancy.


even the PK never had a Winrate this high.

And there it is!!!


Ah, the premiere toxic forum Conq main himself appears to defend his baby against all logic and reason.

I think the word you were looking for is "premier". A premiere is the first performance or showing of something and this is in fact your 2nd beat down from yours truly. Nonetheless I appreciate the acknowledgement that I am the premier Conqueror main on these forums.


This is hilarious in how obviously biased it is. We all know what is meant when we talk about Conq shield bash. It is his dodge into shield bash that is broken so please don't try to act dumb on purpose. Nobody can punish Conq's dodge into shield bash with a GB but you already know that. Only characters with a dodge strike can punish Conq's shield bash. Tell me please which other characters' bash recoveries are immune to everything except a dodge strike? Not that you'll ever admit this publicly.

Well you can continue to believe that delusion, that's your own personal problem.


Did I say anything about it being great? Talk about grasping at straws man, you've got two handfulls of them right here. I said he has an infinite chain like Ara. Here's the thing though, unlike Ara who has nothing much else the Conq has a better kit in both offense and defense than Aramusha.

Uh yes you did actually. Remember that big song and dance you made yesterday about Conqueror not having a limited moveset and then you used this as supporting evidence? Even more funny was that it was your leading point, probably the best thing you could dig out. That's just embarrassing, dude.


Wipe those crocodile tears away my friend, nobody is buying your low quality subterfuge.

You got it all wrong, buddy. I'd never do something to steal the spotlight from your own pity party. Boo hoo hoo, I just can't deal with Conqueror's 500ms infinite light chain. Poor you, Vakris. Poor you.


1. It's a part of his kit therefore I noted it down to dispute the "limited kit" claim. It's no use pretending he doesn't have the best all guard in the game which is an objective fact. Well, unless you're biased Conq main grasping at straws that is :)

Lying so soon, Vakris? The person you replied to never said anything about a limited kit. In fact they said Conqueror's kit was very useful in 1v1. What they did say was that he had a limited moveset, a major distinction. Normally I would chalk this up to your sub-par ability to read and comprehend but then I saw the following quote which confirms you knew exactly what they were talking about:


3. His move set is not limited at all. He has an infinite light/heavy chain that rivals Aramusha's.


2. I'm surprised you missed the part where the devs said they will be reverting the nerf to 600ms activation because it was unintended. I think they already have done so if I'm not mistaken. Still, a very surprising omission from the forum's most prominent Conq main.

Nope, it's still 600ms. Devs might have said they will fix it but that could be like half a year from now like discount Red Riding Hood's soft feign to guard break in a combo when they needed something to add in to bulk up that season 6 "rework". Regardless, the question was limited moveset, if all you have is defensive moves, then that is the definition of limited.


1. It's part of his kit.
2. It's the best superior block move in the game (best damage, best chances of converting to a parry from a mistake).

But again, the claim was "limited moveset", not "limited kit", my dear boy.

Furthermore I find that all your defense related excuses essentially boil down to "well it's the best in X category". Okay well I guess Shinibo's kit is just amazing then by default because he's the only one with ranged attacks and guard breaks, therefore he's the best in both. Actually nobody cares because it doesn't matter if the moves still suck and aren't pragmatic overall.


I'm picking up a lot of over defensiveness in your responces as if you deem a simple breakdown of the Conq's kit as an attack on the character. Put your bias away please and realise that all I did was note down his kit options.

Maybe a little less of the thinly veiled ad hominems and poison the well logical fallacies and a little more of the "actually valid points" would be nice. However I reckon you probably don't have any of the latter.


He has good options for both attack and defense, certainly better attack options and pressure than some DLC heroes like Aramusha, Cent and Shinobi. Heck, he's got better attack pressure than Orochi, a reworked assassin. Obviously his defense options are stronger as he is the poster child for defence after all. However his neutral shield bash is a potent enough attacking tool and will remain so even after normalising his recovery. Or are you saying he needs a broken move to be viable? Because if so then Conq doesn't deserve to be as high tier as he is if all he has going for him is the abuse of a single overtuned move.

Omg Aramusha, Centurion, and Shinibo. He's bringing out the big guns.

We're still waiting on those attack options, since all you came up with was the infinite chain (lol) and shield bash so far.

When are you going to mention the charged heavy? Like you said "it is in his kit", so why aren't you bringing it up? Is it because it would confirm what a joke you really are?


Lol, whose OOS pressure doesn't rely on an unblockable bash or grab mechanic??? Highlander and Cobq are the top 2 OOS pressure monsters in the game. Again, save the crocodile tears for someone who hasn't been around on this forum since day 1 and knows about your Conq biased agenda.

I'm sure you thought you finally had a good point, too bad my intention with bringing up that fact that his OOS pressure relies on shield bash has nothing to do with it being unblockable. That's just some dumb assumption you apparently cooked up in that heavily atrophied mind of yours. In actuality, it was to point out your circular logic (since logic appears to be nothing more than a buzzword to you). You see, you're trying to prove that Conqueror's moveset isn't limited without shield bash, yet you bring up OOS pressure which is through shield bash. Hence the problem. Get it now?

At this point I'm just embarrassed for you. I can't believe I actually had to spell that one out for you.


Him not getting two heavies after a throw was also acknowledged by the devs as a bug. Another very curious omission of knowledge from you...

And again I already explained how this is irrelevant either way since it's entirely dependent on shield bash.


What are you even talking about here? How are you even comparing a near zero recovery time with a non standard way to feint? Hate to break it to you but the secret is out on Conq's ability to use full block to generate a hard feint. Crazy right? Them non-Conq main plebs knowing the stuff we use to bamboozle noobs with. Nice try as always ArchDuke :)

Hate to break it to you, but your "zero recovery time" statement about full block stance is like 6 months out of date, dude. You simply cannot go into attacks immediately after full block like you used to be able to pre-rework, you often will not have time to feign a heavy and go into a dodge. Not to mention stamina costs and other nuances you obviously don't understand or care about.

You finally brought up a good point on accident by pointing out how you are a non-Conq pleb. Whereas you can only prattle on about these tools in your own sad, ignorant way like the pompous windbag that you are, I actually have countless hours of firsthand experience using them against all characters.

Now proceed to your favorite corner and start crying, you've earned a good cry.

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 07:39 AM
Ah well, you keep ignoring the fact that Conq had the highest Winrate in Duel last Season. You got no explanation for that, right? Doesn't fit your "Conq is still bad and super punishable" argument.

You even ignored Arekonator's post about dodge-recovery normalization. He is very true with this, you simply CAN'T punish a Conq without a Dodge-Attack. And even if you have one, going for it is a gamble because you have to do it on prediction - happy parrying.

My reference for the PK was to point out how freaking good Conq is now. He even topped the Winrate of the former Queen of Duels, where a massive nerf was done to fck her up. Just wait, Conq will receive this treatment as well with a Winrate going through the roof. No one should ever have a higher Winrate as 55% to be considered balanced.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-30-2018, 09:04 AM
Ah well, you keep ignoring the fact that Conq had the highest Winrate in Duel last Season. You got no explanation for that, right? Doesn't fit your "Conq is still bad and super punishable" argument.

Nobody here is saying Conqueror is bad. They're saying the moveset is limited. If you can't read then why do you try to debate?


You even ignored Arekonator's post about dodge-recovery normalization. He is very true with this, you simply CAN'T punish a Conq without a Dodge-Attack. And even if you have one, going for it is a gamble because you have to do it on prediction - happy parrying.

Again your reading comprehension is truly horrendous. The dude didn't say anything about dodge attacks needing to be done on prediction, what he claimed was that a side dodge into GB needed to be done on prediction.

Anyway, they obviously made it harder to side dodge and guard break a shield bash on reaction because they recognize how dumb it is to risk taking a heavy or worse on a consistent basis for a 13 damage light on success. Not sure how people fail to come to this conclusion on their own.


My reference for the PK was to point out how freaking good Conq is now. He even topped the Winrate of the former Queen of Duels, where a massive nerf was done to fck her up. Just wait, Conq will receive this treatment as well with a Winrate going through the roof. No one should ever have a higher Winrate as 55% to be considered balanced.

I find it ironic since the bulk of those PK nerfs put her damage down to Conqueror levels and even though you still have much faster attacks and a 400ms zone from neutral, you're struggling to cope. Really makes you think, doesn't it?

So with that in mind, how do you like your now Conqueror levels of damage? I'm curious to hear.

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 09:18 AM
I'm out of this discussion. This guy keeps ignoring that Conq has the best, nearly unpunishable, unblockable opener in the game right now. And then dares to compare that to PK now having the same Damage as Conq, but not mentioning that she does not have this kind of opener. Pathetic, nothing more to add.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-30-2018, 09:31 AM
I'm out of this discussion. This guy keeps ignoring that Conq has the best, nearly unpunishable, unblockable opener in the game right now. And then dares to compare that to PK now having the same Damage as Conq, but not mentioning that she does not have this kind of opener. Pathetic, nothing more to add.

What a truly dismal performance.

Vakris_One
08-30-2018, 10:33 AM
Keep trolling ArchDuke. Maybe someday you'll have a valid opinion rather than being one of this forum's biggest jokes, if by sheer accident at least.

https://i.giphy.com/media/j5QcmXoFWl4Q0/giphy.webp

ChampionRuby50g
08-30-2018, 10:54 AM
Just saying, if your comeback to a comment includes correcting someoneís grammar/spelling, your argument has already fallen apart.

Alustar.
08-30-2018, 11:05 AM
This is a simple issue. If shields bash cannot be punished on a whiff by a GB, then it needs to be changed so that it is.

Arekonator
08-30-2018, 11:16 AM
Again your reading comprehension is truly horrendous. The dude didn't say anything about dodge attacks needing to be done on prediction, what he claimed was that a side dodge into GB needed to be done on prediction.
Good luck doing it on prediction when you have to account for +-500ms of variable timing.

Ultra-instinct theme plays in the background

Capoupacap
08-30-2018, 12:04 PM
Well well, to bring back this never ending discussion about how conqueror is a pain in the ***...let's just resume everything here.


1) It's just my opinion, but I consider that a guaranteed GB on any missed attack is maybe the worst game mechanics in the game. It reinforce turtleling strategy. And it's maybe the worst strategy to apply against him (or against any good player in fact)

2) about the SB itself, if you make it totally predictable, it won't be effective at all. Warlord, LB, warden and much more have exactly the same gamemecanics, sometimes even more punishing.

3) to my advice, the real issue about the conqueror is that is move set is based too much on the SB opening. I say for many season that his more precious mechanics was his counterattack on heavy preparation and the full block stance feint mechanics......He should be reinforce that way. The fact that he is heavily protected reinforce this hero type mechanic. I would like to see him much more versatile in his attack possibility (Unblocable heavy was a good start)

4) Conqueror in his actual state is just the shadow of what he was on the beginning of the game. We had know him as a real stamina drain with an even more rewarding SB mechanic, superior block, etc..... He is by far one of the most annoying hero to fight against... even when he was nerfed to the ground.

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 12:32 PM
Well well, to bring back this never ending discussion about how conqueror is a pain in the ***...let's just resume everything here.


1) It's just my opinion, but I consider that a guaranteed GB on any missed attack is maybe the worst game mechanics in the game. It reinforce turtleling strategy. And it's maybe the worst strategy to apply against him (or against any good player in fact)

2) about the SB itself, if you make it totally predictable, it won't be effective at all. Warlord, LB, warden and much more have exactly the same gamemecanics, sometimes even more punishing.



1) If you give someone a move that guarantees damage, why should it be not possible for the opponent to get guaranteed damage back when he read it and reacted properly?

2) Totally wrong, the examples are not like Conq SB:
WL - no variable timing of headbutt and punishable with a GB when dodged
LB - no guaranteed damage after Shove, 700ms move instead of 500ms
Warden - 700ms move instead of 500ms and punishable with a free GB when dodged

There is, literally, no other move that is as safe and effective as Conq SB right now.

Capoupacap
08-30-2018, 01:54 PM
1) Because it support the turteling meta... itís Somethibg that should be avoid to keep a good balance beetween offense and dťfense). If the sb is nerfed in a way it can be countered (slowing it down is clearly a valid option), a guaranted GB isnít necessary. But itís just my opinion ;)

Some month ago, the overrewarding Parry+GB was exactly the same issue. I donít think that supporting this kind of mechanic is a good idea.

2) about the timing, youíre 100% right. The Warren bash mixup offer more option non because of the cancel... witch isnít Possible with the conqueror.

About the damage and the opening option, I think the conqueror should be more versatile.

I suppose slowing the shield bash as an opener is a first step, slightly more costy in stamina BUT an option more should be added as a follower. The feint on heavy was a really good start...

EvoX.
08-30-2018, 02:33 PM
It's unfair that he is the only character in the game that doesn't have to deal with any kind of recovery time from a bash attack.

His SB recovery time is exactly the same as Warlord's Headbutt, so how about nerfing that too?

Vakris_One
08-30-2018, 02:55 PM
His SB recovery time is exactly the same as Warlord's Headbutt, so how about nerfing that too?
It's not the same. Every character can punish a whiffed Warlord headbutt with a GB. Not a single character in the game can GB punish a whiffed Conq shield bash from neutral, Conq's recovery is too quick. Only characters with dodge attacks can punish Conq's neutral shield bash.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 07:22 PM
Ah well, you keep ignoring the fact that Conq had the highest Winrate in Duel last Season. You got no explanation for that, right? Doesn't fit your "Conq is still bad and super punishable" argument.

You even ignored Arekonator's post about dodge-recovery normalization. He is very true with this, you simply CAN'T punish a Conq without a Dodge-Attack. And even if you have one, going for it is a gamble because you have to do it on prediction - happy parrying.

My reference for the PK was to point out how freaking good Conq is now. He even topped the Winrate of the former Queen of Duels, where a massive nerf was done to fck her up. Just wait, Conq will receive this treatment as well with a Winrate going through the roof. No one should ever have a higher Winrate as 55% to be considered balanced.

Here is a problem with your logic. Someone will always have highest win ratio in Duels. So by your logic, whoever is the best for that season, should be nerfed?

One part of his high win rate is that he was just reworked and he became popular choice for that season. I am not sure if numbers are out for last season, but his numbers will go down.

The other problem is how to balance hero between 1v1 and 4v4. I am no expert on Conq but with around 4000 Dominion matches behind me, imo, he is nothing to brag about. Barley a mid tier, if even that. He is a good team player ( if played by smart guy) but in random 4v4, he has a lot more disadvantages.

Now, 1v1 is another story. I don't play 1v1 a lot, so I can't comment on that but I could see Conq bully someone, even more if he gets you in narrow area. But I am not for any nerf that will weaken him in 4v4 because of 1v1 which is much less popular mode. It doesn't make sense unless he gets extra moves.

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 07:34 PM
Here is a problem with your logic. Someone will always have highest win ratio in Duels. So by your logic, whoever is the best for that season, should be nerfed?

One part of his high win rate is that he was just reworked and he became popular choice for that season. I am not sure if numbers are out for last season, but his numbers will go down.

The other problem is how to balance hero between 1v1 and 4v4. I am no expert on Conq but with around 4000 Dominion matches behind me, imo, he is nothing to brag about. Barley a mid tier, if even that. He is a good team player ( if played by smart guy) but in random 4v4, he has a lot more disadvantages.

Now, 1v1 is another story. I don't play 1v1 a lot, so I can't comment on that but I could see Conq bully someone, even more if he gets you in narrow area. But I am not for any nerf that will weaken him in 4v4 because of 1v1 which is much less popular mode. It doesn't make sense unless he gets extra moves.

By your logic statistics dont tell anything about how strong a Character is...

PK was considered massively OP - had a Winrate of 57% in Duel. Now Conq had 60% - conclusion is now he is fine?

Winrates should be as near to 50% as they can get to consider a game being balanced.

Vakris_One
08-30-2018, 07:34 PM
How will he be weakened in 4v4s if his neutral SB recovery is tuned down to normal levels? If 17 other characters have to make do with having GB punishable recoveries on a whiff (and a fair few of them with much more limited kits) why then can't the Conq?

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 07:49 PM
By your logic statistics dont tell anything about how strong a Character is...

PK was considered massively OP - had a Winrate of 57% in Duel. Now Conq had 60% - conclusion is now he is fine?

Winrates should be as near to 50% as they can get to consider a game being balanced.

No, I am just telling you that usually ,someone always has to be on top. So does community plan to ask for nerfs every time? Because if you nerf Conq now, next season the hero that was behind him, will be first now? Nerf that one as well? In circles we go...
Taking conclusions after one season is tricky because everyone was adjusting to new Conq and how to fight him. I am interested to see his numbers from this last season.

Also, when PK was considered op, did you guys ask for her nerf as well? I am just asking since I wasn't regular on forums.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 07:57 PM
How will he be weakened in 4v4s if his neutral SB recovery is tuned down to normal levels? If 17 other characters have to make do with having GB punishable recoveries on a whiff (and a fair few of them with much more limited kits) why then can't the Conq?

You first have to tell me what "normal" level is?

Is normal having half of your kit as cut scenes? Is it normal for assasins to have a ton of HA and damage ( more than heavies) or to have superior grappling /throwing abilities? How about having only one guy with range attacks which is also faster than any other hero? Would that be normal?

If you want to bring Conq down because of some silly universal standard, then why not bring him up for all other things he is missing? What about his feint game? Or HA on his attacks? Maybe he could bite his opponent for huge damage and heal himself?

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 08:07 PM
1. Yes, PK was considered OP in Duel. That showed in the Winrate. Having anything higher than 55% Winrate is a problem balance wise.
2. All the bash recoveries and dodges were normalized across the roster, except Conq. So that is not "normal".

Vakris_One
08-30-2018, 08:12 PM
No, I am just telling you that usually ,someone always has to be on top. So does community plan to ask for nerfs every time? Because if you nerf Conq now, next season the hero that was behind him, will be first now? Nerf that one as well? In circles we go...
Taking conclusions after one season is tricky because everyone was adjusting to new Conq and how to fight him. I am interested to see his numbers from this last season.
I see the point you're making and agree that we shouldn't be looking to automatically nerf whoever is in 1st place. That has to be done on a case by case basis if for example a character has a problematic move or mechanic that is artificially boosting their power status due to either not having a hard counter or being punishable only by very specific circumstances which not all characters can instigate. In tandem with a more detailed analysis of a character there does however have to be a cut off point in terms of the raw win rate percentage. If for example a character is winning 60% or more of their 1v1 matchups then it needs looking into since the developer's intention is ultimately for everyone in the roster to be hovering around 50% for the best chances at a balanced experience.



Also, when PK was considered op, did you guys ask for her nerf as well? I am just asking since I wasn't regular on forums.
PK was considered OP primarily because of her unusually high damage numbers and to a lesser extent because of the speed of her lights/zone - back then there weren't so many other heroes with easy access to 400/500ms lights. People did ask for her to be nerfed.

We only started getting the official win rate charts from Season 5 onwards, i.e. they began with the Season 4 win rates, which put pre-nerf PK at 57% win rate in Duel.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 08:13 PM
1. Yes, PK was considered OP in Duel. That showed in the Winrate. Having anything higher than 55% Winrate is a problem balance wise.
2. All the bash recoveries and dodges were normalized across the roster, except Conq. So that is not "normal".

1. Where did you come up with 55%? Do you have any valid reason why 55% shou6be used as standard?
2. Well, all attacks were normalized to be non ranged except for Shinobi, so what now?

Charmzzz
08-30-2018, 08:20 PM
1. Where did you come up with 55%? Do you have any valid reason why 55% shou6be used as standard?
2. Well, all attacks were normalized to be non ranged except for Shinobi, so what now?

1. Is common logic. If anyone exceeds 55%, there is someone being at 45%. Do I really have to explain you percentages and why it is bad to have someone winning alot more than others?
2. Wrong comparison, Shinobi ranged Attacks have a counter. Conqs SB does not have one on specific chars, and even the ones with dodge-attacks are easily parry-baited because of the massive variable timing on this move.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 08:22 PM
Well, couldn't we just wait little bit more to see his numbers for last season?

I might be wrong, but I do have a feeling Conq will drop below 60% .

Vakris_One
08-30-2018, 08:28 PM
You first have to tell me what "normal" level is?

Is normal having half of your kit as cut scenes? Is it normal for assasins to have a ton of HA and damage ( more than heavies) or to have superior grappling /throwing abilities? How about having only one guy with range attacks which is also faster than any other hero? Would that be normal?

If you want to bring Conq down because of some silly universal standard, then why not bring him up for all other things he is missing? What about his feint game? Or HA on his attacks? Maybe he could bite his opponent for huge damage and heal himself?
You're describing movesets when this is a matter of the fundamental fight mechanics of the game which all heroes should obey. Otherwise we end up with a two-tiered system where some heroes obey the mechanics while others do not and that's a recipe for an unbalanced mess.

The fundamental fight mechanics of the game have to be standardised for there to be a sense of continuity and balance to the fight system. These are things like light and heavy parry punishes, chip damage, dodge recoveries and recoveries after a whiffed attack or bash. If these things are not standardised across the board for all heroes then the game becomes a tangled mess of unbalanced punishes.

Movesets on the other hand don't have to be standardised across all heroes, in fact that would make the game very boring to play if everyone had the same moveset. Movesets can be as varied as you like they just have to be balanced mechanics-wise, i.e. having a hard counter to everything as well as a balanced risk vs reward for each type of move.

As for what should be considered "normal" in terms of whiffed bash recovery; there is only one character out of 17 others that does not have the same recovery time from a whiffed attack/bash and that is Conq's SB from neutral. Nobody including the devs have yet to provide an answer as to why that should be. Charmzzz said it best in his reply, "All the bash recoveries and dodges were normalized across the roster, except Conq. So that is not "normal"."

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 09:35 PM
Shouldn't fundamental part of melee fighting game such as For Honor be the lack of range attack heroes? Moveset or not, Shinobi is only one breaking that rule plus he is already the fastest hero so potential of abusing that is huge.

We can argue what should be standardized and what shouldn't, but taking away this part of Conq would make him useless because he really doesn't have much. If you can offer suggestions about expanding his kit, I would accept his shield nerf but just to nerf him without offering something in return is not something I can agree with.

His unblockable charged is almost useless and you can see it coming miles ahead. Zone is good defensively but poor offensively. Infinite chain is not the best in the game.

He doesn't have useful feint, unblockable, ha or any other dirty tricks.

DefiledDragon
08-30-2018, 09:47 PM
Shouldn't fundamental part of melee fighting game such as For Honor be the lack of range attack heroes? Moveset or not, Shinobi is only one breaking that rule plus he is already the fastest hero so potential of abusing that is huge.

We can argue what should be standardized and what shouldn't, but taking away this part of Conq would make him useless because he really doesn't have much. If you can offer suggestions about expanding his kit, I would accept his shield nerf but just to nerf him without offering something in return is not something I can agree with.

His unblockable charged is almost useless and you can see it coming miles ahead. Zone is good defensively but poor offensively. Infinite chain is not the best in the game.

He doesn't have useful feint, unblockable, ha or any other dirty tricks.

What you say is true, but what he does have is freely spammable without fear of reprisal in most cases. I can't remember which SF it was, possibly SFII Turbo, or maybe CE, but in one of them, if you were good enough to time it right, Ken could spam small dragon punches over and over, initiating them as soon as his feet touched the floor. His opponent would just be coming out of block stun at this point and there was nothing you could do but guard and hope he missed the timing. It was ridiculous. I'm not saying Conq's SB is that bad, but it's still pretty broken.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-30-2018, 10:19 PM
And I am not against fixing that but only if he gets some other tools that many heroes have. Give him ha or unblockable finishers, or anything else than basic attacks he has now. Nerfing shield will take away everything from him that makes him a heavy class.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-31-2018, 03:12 AM
And I am not against fixing that but only if he gets some other tools that many heroes have. Give him ha or unblockable finishers, or anything else than basic attacks he has now. Nerfing shield will take away everything from him that makes him a heavy class.

They don't have a clue and they will never understand why that is because they don't bother to actually play Conqueror. I know this exact situation very well since I've been playing Conqueror since open beta. He started out competitively viable and then instantly nose dived into C Tier when they nerfed his RECOVERY ON SHIELD BASH MIXUP and made the only move keeping him afloat competitively garbage (and shield bash mixup is still garbage to this day). The only buff we got until season 5 was a 2 damage increase to our heavy, because we couldn't even kill people at one bar of health and they could regenerate it all back.

This Charmzzz dude thinks he's some kind of martyr now because Peacekeeper does Conqueror level damage.


Keep trolling ArchDuke. Maybe someday you'll have a valid opinion rather than being one of this forum's biggest jokes, if by sheer accident at least.

Opinions are subjective, they can't be valid or invalid, fool.


Just saying, if your comeback to a comment includes correcting someoneís grammar/spelling, your argument has already fallen apart.

Me correcting a misspelling in someone else's ad hominem targetted at me is irrelevant to the soundness of my argument. You really should know better, Champion.


PK was considered massively OP - had a Winrate of 57% in Duel. Now Conq had 60% - conclusion is now he is fine?

How sad is this. Charmzzz said they were going to leave the discussion but they just can't resist the urge to derail this thread into a pity party for Peacekeeper. This guy has been crying nonstop with their "PK isn't really that good you just need to guard right and she's useless" sentiment long before any of the reworks even happened. Heck, they still evidently believe that about pre-nerf PK since they had to qualify it as "considered" OP.

Why is it my problem if other people considered PK OP based on the stats? I never advocated for a single peacekeeper nerf period even when Conqueror was getting curb stomped in duel 75% - 25% by Peacekeeper in Season 4's state of balance, the most statistically imbalanced matchup in those stats. Even Season's 5 state of balance still shows Peacekeeper winning the matchup by 55%. Now in season 6, Conqueror may finally be on even terms or even favored after a year and half of Peacekeeper dominating the matchup and this poor baby just can't handle it.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 07:25 AM
To say a 60% Winrate Conq is fine is ignoring balance. To defend an unpunishable move which stands out of all moves is ignoring balance. Btw I just gave the PK comparison to show HOW MUCH Conq has going for him. If he would be trash, like some people here in this thread try to make him look like, he would not have such a high Winrate. Statistics dont lie.

Buggy.Blaster
08-31-2018, 07:44 AM
DUDE ArchDukeInstinct..quit trying to defend this **** op as **** champion man! obviously you play him and your fine with his 60% win rate. And I guarantee if actual good players played conc the win rate would go up to 80% so the fact that noobs play it and its still at 60% win says a lot to me. We know you like to spam the **** out of your broken *** shield bash but please just stop trying to defend the conc. Its broken op and its getting a nerf. no more needs to be said. op, boring and safe as **** to fight, brainless noob fighting kids that think they are good at the game.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-31-2018, 08:41 AM
To say a 60% Winrate Conq is fine is ignoring balance. To defend an unpunishable move which stands out of all moves is ignoring balance. Btw I just gave the PK comparison to show HOW MUCH Conq has going for him. If he would be trash, like some people here in this thread try to make him look like, he would not have such a high Winrate. Statistics dont lie.

So why are you still crying just because Peacekeeper got brought down to Conqueror level damage? By the way, you never answered my question, how are you liking your Conqueror level damage?


DUDE ArchDukeInstinct..quit trying to defend this **** op as **** champion man! obviously you play him and your fine with his 60% win rate. And I guarantee if actual good players played conc the win rate would go up to 80% so the fact that noobs play it and its still at 60% win says a lot to me. We know you like to spam the **** out of your broken *** shield bash but please just stop trying to defend the conc. Its broken op and its getting a nerf. no more needs to be said. op, boring and safe as **** to fight, brainless noob fighting kids that think they are good at the game.

Wow... are you going to be okay?

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 08:46 AM
So why are you still crying just because Peacekeeper got brought down to Conqueror level damage? By the way, you never answered my question, how are you liking your Conqueror level damage?


Your provocation failed Buddy... I'm not crying, I just doubt that the nerf on PK is justified when I look at Conq in comparison. Super-safe playstyle with easy access to openers into guaranteed damage versus, well, no opener and no guaranteed damage at all together with worse whiff recoveries and normalized dodge recoveries.

I would be fine with such low damage on PK if her dagger cancel would be unblockable and would deal 15 damage. And even that is not on par with how ridiculously OP Conq SB from neutral is now.

Edit: Btw, you are not answering any questions at all. So stop asking people these bs provocating questions, or provide answers on our questions. You keep ignoring them because, well, you don't have a real argument against our claims.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-31-2018, 08:54 AM
Your provocation failed Buddy... I'm not crying, I just doubt that the nerf on PK is justified when I look at Conq in comparison.

"I'm not crying" -> immediately turns into a complaint about how PK's nerf wasn't justified.

NinjaRonin85
08-31-2018, 08:55 AM
Raider can get the gb on conq if he spams bash, maybe kensei can I'm not sure but I know for a fact raider can.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 09:02 AM
"I'm not crying" -> immediately turns into a complaint about how PK's nerf wasn't justified.

Your definition of crying is complaining, alright.

YOU asked ME about how I feel having the same damage as Conq. And now you use YOUR QUESTION for me and MY ANSWER on it as a way to make a fool out of me?

It get's more pathetic with every post from you. ^^


Raider can get the gb on conq if he spams bash, maybe kensei can I'm not sure but I know for a fact raider can.

Yes, if the Conq is bad and does not initiate the SB at the end of the window and the Raider dodges on prediction. Also, both players need to have very low latency. There is no consistency in that punish due to the variable timing and fast recovery of Conq after a SB whiff.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 09:04 AM
Conq has about zero offensive options if they nerf the shieldbash. Also its easy punished with a dodge attack or a dodge bash. You can also get a free guardbreak if he dodge to start the bash. I own conqs that spam shieldbash. conq good vs classes without a dodge attack but i rate Warden and zerk higher in duels on console + they are alot better in 4vs4 then Conq. Conq is strong but Nowhere close to the pre nerfed pk who was autopick in competive 1vs1, brawls and 4vs4.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 09:19 AM
Conq has about zero offensive options if they nerf the shieldbash. Also its easy punished with a dodge attack or a dodge bash. You can also get a free guardbreak if he dodge to start the bash. I own conqs that spam shieldbash. conq good vs classes without a dodge attack but i rate Warden and zerk higher in duels on console + they are alot better in 4vs4 then Conq. Conq is strong but Nowhere close to the pre nerfed pk who was autopick in competive 1vs1, brawls and 4vs4.

Did you even read the Thread? Seems like you just threw out nonsense without any idea of the mechanics, again...

1. Having "zero" offensive options if a move is nerfed does not justify that move to be OP and almost unpunishable
2. "easy punished" is wrong - Conq can vary his SB startup timing within a 500ms timeframe - this enables him to perfectly bait dodges for a free heavy after GB
3. No, you cannot GB him on reaction out of his dodge because he can initate his SB late and will hit you out of your GB attempt. You can GB ON PREDICTION which makes Conqs SB almost a real 50/50.
4. The only way to consistently counter the SB is to roll away - we had this kind of move on Warden and it got removed due to the Devs not wanting 50/50 or roll away moves in the game.

ArchDukeInstinct
08-31-2018, 09:22 AM
Your definition of crying is complaining, alright. It get's more pathetic with every post from you. ^^

Good point. "Crying" doesn't do it justice. When you spent most of your time on these forums saying how your main is supposedly nullified by just blocking right, even though your main has been at the pinnacle from season 1 to season 5, that's really more akin to bawling like an entitled baby.

And then you have the nerve to turn around and get this angry just because Conqueror mains want something in exchange for a shield bash nerf. Gee whiz, it would just be god awful if for example we did a change to make the charged heavy actually useful or something while the move with a high tendency to be spammy gets a downgrade.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 09:28 AM
Good point. "Crying" doesn't do it justice. When you spent most of your time on these forums saying how your main is supposedly nullified by just blocking right, even though your main has been at the pinnacle from season 1 to season 5, that's really more akin to bawling like an entitled baby.

And then you have the nerve to turn around and get this angry just because Conqueror mains want something in exchange for a shield bash nerf. Gee whiz, it would just be god awful if for example we did a change to make the charged heavy actually useful or something while the move with a high tendency to be spammy gets a downgrade.

Why you have to throw personal insults on me in every post you do?

The argument that PK was on top for a long time and now deserves to be trash is awful. Plain awful.

I said that SB needs to be removed and nothing else should be done? Quote me on that! You cannot because I did not say it. Charged Heavy has it's uses in Ganks btw. Defending Conq to keep his super-safe, spammy and damage guaranteeing move because he would be trash otherwise is beyond wrong.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-31-2018, 09:49 AM
To say a 60% Winrate Conq is fine is ignoring balance. To defend an unpunishable move which stands out of all moves is ignoring balance. Btw I just gave the PK comparison to show HOW MUCH Conq has going for him. If he would be trash, like some people here in this thread try to make him look like, he would not have such a high Winrate. Statistics dont lie.

Statistics actually do lie. That is the real issue here and I will try to summarize it:

1. First, we have to specify above what % win rate hero should be considered op? Someone said 55%, why? Is there a valid and scientific reason behind that number or it can be 54, or 58?

2. We have numbers for only one season. If you want to make any conclusion, you at least need to work with numbers from last season as well. When Conq was buffed, players needed more time to adjust to new and improved Conq.

3. Win rate % in duels is based on top 2.5% players, correct? Well, I would like to know few things. How many players are we talking about? 300, 200, less? How many of them were using Conq, or on how many matches are numbers of each hero based on? Without these information, every stat we get means little. It can happen that there are only 2 players who were playing as Conq and both of them played only 3 matches each. So we want to balance heroes according to two players? It is just example of how statistics can be wrong.

4. Don't forget about 4v4. If there is a big difference between Conq performance in 1v1 and 4v4, how do you suggest we use the data to make him stronger in 4v4 and weaker in 1v1? Keep in mind that 4v4 is bread and butter of this game while 1v1 is more of a niche mode.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 09:53 AM
Did you even read the Thread? Seems like you just threw out nonsense without any idea of the mechanics, again...

1. Having "zero" offensive options if a move is nerfed does not justify that move to be OP and almost unpunishable
2. "easy punished" is wrong - Conq can vary his SB startup timing within a 500ms timeframe - this enables him to perfectly bait dodges for a free heavy after GB
3. No, you cannot GB him on reaction out of his dodge because he can initate his SB late and will hit you out of your GB attempt. You can GB ON PREDICTION which makes Conqs SB almost a real 50/50.
4. The only way to consistently counter the SB is to roll away - we had this kind of move on Warden and it got removed due to the Devs not wanting 50/50 or roll away moves in the game.
Do you even play conq? You seem to have no clue how to play him or how to counter him. Like i Said he easy punished by dodge attacks and bash. You can also guardbreak him on prediction. Damage confirmed after bash is low and he has No other way to open up a player except a low risk low reward move. He is balanced and if you dont think so try practice more. Its a learn to play issue if you cant counter conq.

Capoupacap
08-31-2018, 10:01 AM
Why you have to throw personal insults on me in every post you do?

The argument that PK was on top for a long time and now deserves to be trash is awful. Plain awful.

I said that SB needs to be removed and nothing else should be done? Quote me on that! You cannot because I did not say it. Charged Heavy has it's uses in Ganks btw. Defending Conq to keep his super-safe, spammy and damage guaranteeing move because he would be trash otherwise is beyond wrong.

Because basically, you use exactly the same attitude against anybody who post something that is not exactly acurate, or does not go your direction. When I entered the forum, I propose other solution that was gameplay based, because I do think that people struggle against the conqueror because it's an entire different battle than against other heroes. t's more a moveset design issue within the coregame mechanics of this game. You went exactly the same way than against arkdude (a bit softer :p).

Keep it simple, you won't add anything to your day by reigning on this thread ;)

ArchDukeInstinct
08-31-2018, 10:14 AM
Why you have to throw personal insults on me in every post you do?

Because you've earned it. I didn't say a word to you in this thread when I entered it, I responded to someone else and then immediately I get nailed with "There comes the Conq Main to defend his guy" from you.


The argument that PK was on top for a long time and now deserves to be trash is awful. Plain awful.

Not even close to what I believe, like I mentioned earlier I never even advocated for a single Peacekeeper nerf. Why would I think they should be trash? I'm just trying to protect my own class from having another C tier for a year experience and you're getting in the way.


I said that SB needs to be removed and nothing else should be done? Quote me on that! You cannot because I did not say it.

Yep. You did say nothing else should be done by agreeing with the notion that Conqueror's kit is "one of the best in the game" and that the only problem was shield bash's recovery. Remember that?


Charged Heavy has it's uses in Ganks btw.

Nobody cares.


Defending Conq to keep his super-safe, spammy and damage guaranteeing move because he would be trash otherwise is beyond wrong.

From day 1 of the rework being released, I publicly stated that I had issues with it but have accepted that we're probably stuck with it now because people who don't even play Conqueror say the kit is just fine even though it blatantly hinges on one unblockable attack to have any real offensive capability.

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 11:19 AM
.
Opinions are subjective, they can't be valid or invalid, fool.
Opinions are indeed subjective but their validity as objective facts and/or counter arguments can absolutely be valid or invalid. As you continue to demonstrate with your ad hominem laced posts; your inability to express an opinion without obfuscating around points you don't want to or cannot debate and outright attacking the other person instead of the argument only works to devalue the worth of whatever you have to say.



Me correcting a misspelling in someone else's ad hominem targetted at me is irrelevant to the soundness of my argument. You really should know better, Champion.

Your focus on correcting spelling and then not actually addressing any of the points made is very telling of your lack of an actual counter argument. It's a tell tale sign of a desire to deviate the conversation into an irrelevant tangent in the hopes of derailing it because you can't use logic to overcome the arguements put forward. As you went on to demonstrate with the rest of your reply. Classic obfuscation tactic for those without the necessary logic or temperament to put across a coherent and relevant arguement.


Raider can get the gb on conq if he spams bash, maybe kensei can I'm not sure but I know for a fact raider can.
Because Raider has a side dodge into GB move. Characters without that ability or a form of dodge attack cannot punish the whiffed bash from neutral.


Do you even play conq? You seem to have no clue how to play him or how to counter him. Like i Said he easy punished by dodge attacks and bash. You can also guardbreak him on prediction. Damage confirmed after bash is low and he has No other way to open up a player except a low risk low reward move. He is balanced and if you dont think so try practice more. Its a learn to play issue if you cant counter conq.
Yep, completely balanced... With being the only character in the game that doesn't obey the normal recovery time after an attack. Yes, that is indeed what is meant when peoole think "balanced".

I mean it's not like he's one of the very few top competitive picks in 1v1 and 2v2 Tournaments in the competitive scene based solely because of his bash recovery. You won't see a single 1v1 or 2v2 Tournament without a small village of Conqs in relation to the ratio of other S and A tier heroes being represented.



From day 1 of the rework being released, I publicly stated that I had issues with it but have accepted that we're probably stuck with it now because people who don't even play Conqueror say the kit is just fine even though it blatantly hinges on one unblockable attack to have any real offensive capability.
If you are truly convinced of that then start suggesting some ideas for compensation to his kit instead of insisting that Conq MUST have a busted move in order to be even barely useable. Surely a more well rounded hero that doesn't have to crutch on a single busted move would be infinitely more enjoyable to play.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 11:41 AM
Conq is balanced, only offensive option is a low risk low reward move. He is bad in 2vs 2 and 4vs 4 where revenge is a thing since the bash feels up the revenge meter fast and he has poor light attack damage. Zerk and Warden are alot better with several offensive options and are strong in brawls and 4 vs4 . If you have problem with conq its a learn to play issue.

Capoupacap
08-31-2018, 11:50 AM
Conq is balanced, only offensive option is a low risk low reward move. He is bad in 2vs 2 and 4vs 4 where revenge is a thing since the bash feels up the revenge meter fast and he has poor light attack damage. Zerk and Warden are alot better with several offensive options and are strong in brawls and 4 vs4 . If you have problem with conq its a learn to play issue.

My opinion too

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 11:51 AM
Conq is balanced, only offensive option is a low risk low reward move. He is bad in 2vs 2 and 4vs 4 where revenge is a thing since the bash feels up the revenge meter fast and he has poor light attack damage. Zerk and Warden are alot better with several offensive options and are strong in brawls and 4 vs4 . If you have problem with conq its a learn to play issue.

Can you base your argument about real ingame mechanics and not about your feelings, just once?

Poor Light attack damage: 13 damage for Conq, 15 for Warden Top and Zerker, Warden double side Light is 18 damage. Look at this with having in mind that Conq has a 500ms Bash from neutral which is delayable - no one else has this.

Which options do Warden and Zerker have:
Warden: Bash is 700ms, not delayable like Conq and his recovery is long enough to guarantee a GB to the opponent if dodged.
Zerker: Feint into 400ms Light is his only "opener" if you want to call it that. He can be GBed out of it on prediction AND you can just block it - so it is by any means not a comparable opener at all.

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 11:55 AM
Conq is balanced, only offensive option is a low risk low reward move. He is bad in 2vs 2 and 4vs 4 where revenge is a thing since the bash feels up the revenge meter fast and he has poor light attack damage. Zerk and Warden are alot better with several offensive options and are strong in brawls and 4 vs4 . If you have problem with conq its a learn to play issue.
Repeating a mantra over and over like its your religion doesn't magically a good arguement make. Even though I don't struggle against the majority of Conqs I meet it doesn't mean I can't hold the opinion that a character who only needs to use a single move in 90% of his fights isn't very well balanced. Refusing to see a problem that needs solving doesn't make the problem any less real.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 12:00 PM
Repeating a mantra over and over like its your religion doesn't magically a good arguement make. Even though I don't struggle against the majority of Conqs I meet it doesn't mean I can't hold the opinion that a character who only needs to use a single move in 90% of his fights isn't very well balanced. Refusing to see a problem that needs solving doesn't make the problem any less real.use a dodge attack or dodge bash problem solved conq punished.... Yes classes without those options like lawbringer or shugoki are free wins for the Conq. they could Definetly rework conq so he has more different offensive options but just nerfing his shieldbash he Will be unplayable in duels just like shugoki and lawbringer.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 12:17 PM
use a dodge attack or dodge bash problem solved conq punished.... Yes classes without those options like lawbringer or shugoki are free wins for the Conq. they could Definetly rework conq so he has more different offensive options but just nerfing his shieldbash he Will be unplayable in duels just like shugoki and lawbringer.

Oh yeah, let's give everyone a Dodge-Attack or Dodge-into-Bash move so Conq is balanced. I wonder if you mean this seriously.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 12:22 PM
Because you've earned it. I didn't say a word to you in this thread when I entered it, I responded to someone else and then immediately I get nailed with "There comes the Conq Main to defend his guy" from you.


There is a difference in calling someone "crying" or "baby" and other insults, and saying that a Conq Main comes to defend his Character. Are you not a Conq Main? Are you not defending your Main?
If you don't see a difference in this kind of communication - well - I guess a Mod has to decide.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 12:35 PM
Oh yeah, let's give everyone a Dodge-Attack or Dodge-into-Bash move so Conq is balanced. I wonder if you mean this seriously.
Exactly Every single Class should have a dodge attack or bash, its a part or balance or bashes like shoulderbash, shieldbash Will be to strong. The solution is not to nerf conqs bash so he has zero offensive options. Are you seriously wanting conq to not be able to do a single attack. You want him to be in the same state as shugoki? Seriously lol?

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 12:49 PM
So your solution to one hero's move being unbalanced and busted is to propose a re-design of the entire roster's moveset philosophy by designing entirely new yet copy/paste moves for over 10 other heroes rather than fixing just that one hero's busted move and compensating him with something more well rounded and balanced.

....

....

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 12:55 PM
Exactly Every single Class should have a dodge attack or bash, its a part or balance or bashes like shoulderbash, shieldbash Will be to strong. The solution is not to nerf conqs bash so he has zero offensive options. Are you seriously wanting conq to not be able to do a single attack. You want him to be in the same state as shugoki? Seriously lol?

Your solution su*ks. ^^

Not everyone needs a dodge attack or bash move - diversity in movesets would be destroyed by adding this to everyone. I never said that Conq should not be able to attack (and btw he has 500ms Lights which are super good according to you in several other Threads). He is not, by any means, in the state as Shugoki. I do not even want his bash to be removed, I just want it to be punishable for everyone without adding new moves to everyone...

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 12:56 PM
So your solution to one hero's move being unbalanced and busted is to propose a re-design of the entire roster's moveset philosophy by designing entirely new moves for over 10 other heroes rather than fixing just that one hero's busted move and compensating him with something more well rounded and balanced.

....

.... No learn to read. Warden shoulderbash has the same problem as conqs shieldbash. Its very hard to punish Of you dont have a dodge attack or bash. Its a reason all top tier duel classes has dodge dash or dodge attack and the D tier classes dont have any. Game Will Continue to be unbalanced if you certain heroes have bashes and other heroes cant counter it.
Its also a balancing problem if some classes have No offensive option but both you and charmzzz think is a good Idea obviously :D

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 01:09 PM
No learn to read. Warden shoulderbash has the same problem as conqs shieldbash. Its very hard to punish Of you dont have a dodge attack or bash. Its a reason all top tier duel classes has dodge dash or dodge attack and the D tier classes dont have any. Game Will Continue to be unbalanced if you certain heroes have bashes and other heroes cant counter it.
Its also a balancing problem if some classes have No offensive option but both you and charmzzz think is a good Idea obviously :D
Quote me on where I said it's a good idea to have no offensive options. Don't put words into people's mouths, learn to debate their points instead like an honest human being. You're nearly as bad as ArchDuke with the delusional way you both skirt around the simple truth that Conq has a busted move. That busted move needs to be fixed. Period. There is no debating this truth.

Deviating the conversation with "but what about this hero. And this hero! And this one!" is irrelevant. This topic is about discussing Conq. If you want to discuss Warden then open up a thread about him and take the debate about him there. You're just dragging this out without disproving any of the arguements made about Conq because you cannot dispute the simple truth that Conq has a busted move.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 01:16 PM
No learn to read. Warden shoulderbash has the same problem as conqs shieldbash. Its very hard to punish Of you dont have a dodge attack or bash. Its a reason all top tier duel classes has dodge dash or dodge attack and the D tier classes dont have any. Game Will Continue to be unbalanced if you certain heroes have bashes and other heroes cant counter it.
Its also a balancing problem if some classes have No offensive option but both you and charmzzz think is a good Idea obviously :D

Bro, Warden bash is 700ms, no variable timing when initiating and is punished by a free GB after whiff. You really did not read this Thread at all or understand the game mechanics... Fck I am repeating myself. Keep ignoring the facts like you did in other Threads.

And btw, according to you PK is fine now, remember that Thread? She does not have a bash or other opener. How does that correlate to your claims??? So many unlogical conclusions... And now dont dare to come up with "but she has fast Lights", cause Conq has 500ms Lights, too.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 01:21 PM
Quote me on where I said it's a good idea to have no offensive options. Don't put words into people's mouths, learn to debate their points instead like an honest human being. You're nearly as bad as ArchDuke with the delusional way you both skirt around the simple truth that Conq has a busted move. That busted move needs to be fixed. Period. There is no debating this truth.

Deviating the conversation with "but what about this hero. And this hero! And this one!" is irrelevant. This topic is about discussing Conq. If you want to discuss Warden then open up a thread about him and take the debate about him there. You're just dragging this out without disproving any of the arguements made about Conq because you cannot dispute the simple truth that Conq has a busted move.again shieldbash isnt busted, its a low risk low reward move, compared to Warden bash, slightly riskier but Much higher reward, double lights that leads to another mix up or top heavy 40 damage. Warden also has other offensive tools like a fast zone with decent damage, top unblockable for mixups and valient breakthrough for example.
I do think both Warden bash and conq bash needs changes but conq need other offensive tools before they do any kind if nerf because then the Class Will be unplayable because No offensive tools. i never seen you say anything about giving him any other offensive tools which means you just want him to not be able to attack even if you dont realise that yourself. Feel free to suggest a balanced rework instead Of just a nerf.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 01:29 PM
You cannot stop defending Conqs busted SB without taking reference to a completely different and easier to punish, other Character's bash? Why you keep ignoring facts?

Warden Bash (fck again repeating): 700ms, no variable timing, punished with a free GB on dodge FOR EVERYONE
Conq Bash: 500ms, variable startup timing, faster recovery on whiff so NOT PUNISHABLE with a GB (except from Raider, I learned that here)

See? Those bashes are not comparable. They only look similar, but they are not on the same performance level at all.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 01:36 PM
You cannot stop defending Conqs busted SB without taking reference to a completely different and easier to punish, other Character's bash? Why you keep ignoring facts?

Warden Bash (fck again repeating): 700ms, no variable timing, punished with a free GB on dodge FOR EVERYONE
Conq Bash: 500ms, variable startup timing, faster recovery on whiff so NOT PUNISHABLE with a GB (except from Raider, I learned that here)

See? Those bashes are not comparable. They only look similar, but they are not on the same performance level at all. lol now you use Numbers again to "prove" your point but dont talk about all Numbers and all facts. The bashes are different. Warden can cancel his bash at anytime, Wardens bash deals more damage, if connects double light to a other shoulderbash mixup or a fully charged for 40 damage top heavy. Conq bash to confirmed light deals a whopping 13 damage and dont lead to any mix up.
Both bashes are really strong. They have their pros in cons. As a person that actually plays both Warden and conq i prefer Warden. Shoulderbash overall for 1vs1,brawls and 4vs4.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 01:53 PM
lol now you use Numbers again to "prove" your point but dont talk about all Numbers and all facts. The bashes are different. Warden can cancel his bash at anytime, Wardens bash deals more damage, if connects double light to a other shoulderbash mixup or a fully charged for 40 damage top heavy. Conq bash to confirmed light deals a whopping 13 damage and dont lead to any mix up.
Both bashes are really strong. They have their pros in cons. As a person that actually plays both Warden and conq i prefer Warden. Shoulderbash overall for 1vs1,brawls and 4vs4.

I know the numbers, but that does not excuse Conq having an unpunishable move for half the roster because it deals only little damage. Can you, just once, comment on my and Vakris arguments? Just explain me why Conq should have a superior recovery than everybody else on an unblockable opener with guaranteed damage. I really do not understand this because NO OTHER Character has this.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 02:00 PM
I know the numbers, but that does not excuse Conq having an unpunishable move for half the roster because it deals only little damage. Can you, just once, comment on my and Vakris arguments? Just explain me why Conq should have a superior recovery than everybody else on an unblockable opener with guaranteed damage. I really do not understand this because NO OTHER Character has this. can you explain to me why zerk should have 400ms light attacks with hyperarmor, NO OTHER character has this. Also you are wrong about conq bash is unpunishable by half rooster.

Armosias
08-31-2018, 02:06 PM
can you explain to me why zerk should have 400ms light attacks with hyperarmor, NO OTHER character has this. Also you are wrong about conq bash is unpunishable by half rooster.
Are we speaking about Zerk? Can you stop trying to change the subject?
Aslo isn't Warlord's headbutt unpunishable too? Just wondering..

ChampionRuby50g
08-31-2018, 02:07 PM
can you explain to me why zerk should have 400ms light attacks with hyperarmor, NO OTHER character has this. Also you are wrong about conq bash is unpunishable by half rooster.

Been reading these comments all night and man, you are really just digging yourself a deeper hole.
You canít answer a question with another question. It shows youíve got no idea what youíre on about and you are trying so desperately to avoid even thinking about an answer. For someone defending this mechanic so tenaciously, you sure donít wanna speak about why he should have this mechanic.


He is wrong about Conq bash been Impossible to punish by half the roster. More like 3/4 of the roster.

The_B0G_
08-31-2018, 02:13 PM
can you explain to me why zerk should have 400ms light attacks with hyperarmor, NO OTHER character has this. Also you are wrong about conq bash is unpunishable by half rooster.

Can't believe I'm siding with Charmzzz but he's right, shield bash is too strong, wardens is strong too and can be cancelled but he can't soft feint into it from a heavy either.

Once you get caught in that shield bash loop it can be hard to get out of, and when you finally do dodge a shield bash, you get to trade or block a light for your trouble.

At least when you dodge warden you get a punish, and usually a substantial one.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 02:27 PM
Been reading these comments all night and man, you are really just digging yourself a deeper hole.
You canít answer a question with another question. It shows youíve got no idea what youíre on about and you are trying so desperately to avoid even thinking about an answer. For someone defending this mechanic so tenaciously, you sure donít wanna speak about why he should have this mechanic.


He is wrong about Conq bash been Impossible to punish by half the roster. More like 3/4 of the roster.
Its you that digging a deeper hold bro, i never defender the bash but he needs another opener before they nerf the bash or we have another Class with No offensive option also Every single Class with a dodge attack or dodge bash can punish the conq. Thx for lols :D

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 02:34 PM
Are we speaking about Zerk? Can you stop trying to change the subject?
Aslo isn't Warlord's headbutt unpunishable too? Just wondering..

Dodged Warlord Headbutt nets you a free GB. It is 500ms, just like Conq SB, but his recovery is longer so you get the free GB.

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 02:38 PM
can you explain to me why zerk should have 400ms light attacks with hyperarmor, NO OTHER character has this. Also you are wrong about conq bash is unpunishable by half rooster.
And there we go again. You are asked a direct question and you refuse to provide an answer to it. Instead you quickly rush to deviate the discussion by trying to make it about any other character.

Warden's shoulder bash is very strong but for a different reason than Conq's SB. Warden can use it to react to anything his opponent does but at least his shoulder bash conforms to the fundamental mechanics of the game, which Conq's recovery does not. If a Warden misses his shoulder bash he can be punished by everyone in the roster. If Conq misses his shield bash he can only be punished by characters with dodge attacks. It's very clear to see which of these two moves works within the standardised mechanics of the game and which one subverts the fundamental recovery mechanic.

There's just nothing more to debate with you until you admit the truth of the matter.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 02:38 PM
Its you that digging a deeper hold bro, i never defender the bash but he needs another opener before they nerf the bash or we have another Class with No offensive option also Every single Class with a dodge attack or dodge bash can punish the conq. Thx for lols :D

You still try to evade a real argument. Keep throwing your smoke bombs. Zerker is, firstly, not the discussion point here, and secondly lacks a bash from neutral. He literally has no way to force a reaction, while Conq CAN force a reaction from neutral and be safe on a CORRECT READ of the opponent against most of the roster.

Capoupacap
08-31-2018, 02:41 PM
I quite laughing because I come from console playing where the game is much (much much) more faster and I had my time of frustration. Now on pc, I feel like I have the time to take a coffee cup before parrying or dodging...It's a whole other tempo of fighting (more enjoyable except at high level with the parry cancel dance)

Even it's true the conqueror opening bash could be slightly nerfed (in fact make it slightly more visible), I don't struggle that much against him. I feel like the warden combo simple bash/charged bash more "difficult" to manage because you can't make a mistake. With the conqueror it's just about timing and not trying immediately to grab him....Light parrying against him isn't such a issue...And I don't even speak about his heavy....EVEN he goes to full stance, you have all the time to cancel the parry because how loud he is when he make that move...... Maybe it's because I know his move set very well.

I'm sure the dev will bring him to a more manageable state, and then we will complain about another move set to be op...

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 02:41 PM
Its you that digging a deeper hold bro, i never defender the bash but he needs another opener before they nerf the bash or we have another Class with No offensive option also Every single Class with a dodge attack or dodge bash can punish the conq. Thx for lols :D
How about we give everybody unpunishable recoveries and remove all dodge attacks from the game. By your method of logic the game will be perfectly balanced then.

Sleek_007
08-31-2018, 02:43 PM
Just throwing my two cents into the mix.
Just like Shugoki, Conq is pretty hit or miss. He's walking a pretty fine line between OP and a joke. Nerfing his SB would probably leave him in the dust compared to the rest of the characters with something to fall back on other than, well, SB. plus, the stamina consumption of Conq is almost as bad as Shugoki as well, so the huge heavy combos (that can be punished even if used in conjunction with SB if spammed considering his stamina drain) are a non-issue given that faster characters or players with good parry timing can easily punish anything that isn't the SB.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 02:43 PM
And there we go again. You are asked a direct question and you refuse to provide an answer to it. Instead you quickly rush to deviate the discussion by trying to make it about any other character.

Warden's shoulder bash is very strong but for a different reason than Conq's SB. Warden can use it to react to anything his opponent does but at least his shoulder bash conforms to the fundamental mechanics of the game, which Conq's recovery does not. If a Warden misses his shoulder bash he can be punished by everyone in the roster. If Conq misses his shield bash he can only be punished by characters with dodge attacks. It's very clear to see which of these two moves works within the standardised mechanics of the game and which one subverts the fundamental recovery mechanic.

There's just nothing more to debate with you until you admit the truth of the matter. its a risk vs reward if you compare Warden and conq. Conq very small damage but safer then Warden.
Comparing with warlords headbutt is also intresting, both give very low damage and warlord can be punished when you dodge hos headbutt so conq bash is alot better then warlords headbutt, but warlord has other offensive tools aswell like running shield crush that gives 30 damage or even 37 from jump top heavy to headbutt poke for example.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 02:51 PM
I quite laughing because I come from console playing where the game is much (much much) more faster and I had my time of frustration. Now on pc, I feel like I have the time to take a coffee cup before parrying or dodging...It's a whole other tempo of fighting (more enjoyable except at high level with the parry cancel dance)

Even it's true the conqueror opening bash could be slightly nerfed (in fact make it slightly more visible), I don't struggle that much against him. I feel like the warden combo simple bash/charged bash more "difficult" to manage because you can't make a mistake. With the conqueror it's just about timing and not trying immediately to grab him....Light parrying against him isn't such a issue...And I don't even speak about his heavy....EVEN he goes to full stance, you have all the time to cancel the parry because how loud he is when he make that move...... Maybe it's because I know his move set very well.

I'm sure the dev will bring him to a more manageable state, and then we will complain about another move set to be op...

Then you never met a Conq who varies his SB timing. And btw, I do not complain about Conqs Moveset. I just think that one unpunishable Move has to be changed. Don't put words into my mouth, please.


its a risk vs reward if you compare Warden and conq. Conq very small damage but safer then Warden.
Comparing with warlords headbutt is also intresting, both give very low damage and warlord can be punished when you dodge hos headbutt so conq bash is alot better then warlords headbutt, but warlord has other offensive tools aswell like running shield crush that gives 30 damage or even 37 from jump top heavy to headbutt poke for example.

You still ignore the questions and try to use other Characters as smoke bombs. Conq SB is not "very small safer" than Warden SB. IT IS THE BEST MOVE IN THE GAME right now. It is the one move being closest to a 50/50, closely followed by Highlander Kick/Grab (which I think also has to have a change concerning how tight the dodge windows for the mixup are).

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 02:56 PM
Then you never met a Conq who varies his SB timing. And btw, I do not complain about Conqs Moveset. I just think that one unpunishable Move has to be changed. Don't put words into my mouth, please.



You still ignore the questions and try to use other Characters as smoke bombs. Conq SB is not "very small safer" than Warden SB. IT IS THE BEST MOVE IN THE GAME right now. It is the one move being closest to a 50/50, closely followed by Highlander Kick/Grab (which I think also has to have a change concerning how tight the dodge windows for the mixup are). lol conq bash is not even close to best move in the Game, like i Said you can punish it with a dodge attack and conq hit is 13 damage. Same with highlander actually easy punished with any character with a dodge attack or you can just simply hit him with a light attack to break his offensive stance.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 03:02 PM
lol conq bash is not even close to best move in the Game, like i Said you can punish it with a dodge attack and conq hit is 13 damage. Same with highlander actually easy punished with any character with a dodge attack or you can just simply hit him with a light attack to break his offensive stance.

If a Character has a move which is unpunishable for most Characters, on a CORRECT read, how is that justified? Answer the question, can you? Or you keep ignoring it?

Which is the best move in the game according to you?

Highlander is punishable with a free GB if you dodge the kick/grab - Conq is not. No comparison, sorry.

Vakris_One
08-31-2018, 03:14 PM
Okay, so in the interests of getting this topic back on track and to put things into perspective... The following statement is frankly the only thing that matters:


We're certainly aware that Conqueror is in a very strong state currently and the balance team is looking at him. Should we have any upcoming balance changes to share, we'll let everyone know!
Repeating for emphasis:

"We're certainly aware that Conqueror is in a very strong state currently and the balance team is looking at him."

So the developers themselves are looking at him with the intention to balance him as they are fully aware of the "very strong state" that he is in currently. That categorically puts an end to the circular discussions of whether Conq is in a bad spot or not and whether he will be looked into. He IS going to be looked into because he is not considered balanced according to the developers themselves. It is solely up to them as to HOW they will balance him. End of line.

Feel free to offer suggestions as to how you think they might balance the Conq.

EvoX.
08-31-2018, 03:16 PM
It's not the same. Every character can punish a whiffed Warlord headbutt with a GB. Not a single character in the game can GB punish a whiffed Conq shield bash from neutral, Conq's recovery is too quick. Only characters with dodge attacks can punish Conq's neutral shield bash.

Nope, you cannot punish Warlord's HB with a reaction GB since every character has 600ms dodges, it has to be near pure prediction. It's exactly the same as Conqueror, I've tested this numerous times, have tried it online and I've seen pro players get their GB's countered when they dodge it on reaction alone. Both moves have the same recovery frames.

The only thing you can argue is that it doesn't have as variable timings as Conq's SB, but that's overshadowed by the fact that Warlord's GB punish is way better than Conq's.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 03:27 PM
Okay, so in the interests of getting this topic back on track and to put things into perspective... The following statement is frankly the only thing that matters:


Repeating for emphasis:

"We're certainly aware that Conqueror is in a very strong state currently and the balance team is looking at him."

So the developers themselves are looking at him with the intention to balance him as they are fully aware of the "very strong state" that he is in currently. That categorically puts an end to the circular discussions of whether Conq is in a bad spot or not and whether he will be looked into. He IS going to be looked into because he is not considered balanced according to the developers themselves. It is solely up to them as to HOW they will balance him. End of line.

Feel free to offer suggestions as to how you think they might balance the Conq. devs looking at him yeah. They dont say that they have intention balancing him. Maybe they Will or maybe they wont. Is conq strong 1vs1? Yes but so is Warden and zerk. they could just give shield bash exactly the same thing as the warlord headbutt but then they also need to give him other good offensive tools comparable to warlord.

Charmzzz
08-31-2018, 04:00 PM
devs looking at him yeah. They dont say that they have intention balancing him. Maybe they Will or maybe they wont. Is conq strong 1vs1? Yes but so is Warden and zerk. they could just give shield bash exactly the same thing as the warlord headbutt but then they also need to give him other good offensive tools comparable to warlord.

"certainly aware that Conq is in a very strong state" implies definitely a nerf. "balance team looking at him" definitely implies the intention to balance him because he is too strong. How more ignorant can it get...

DefiledDragon
08-31-2018, 04:08 PM
devs looking at him yeah. They dont say that they have intention balancing him. Maybe they Will or maybe they wont. Is conq strong 1vs1? Yes but so is Warden and zerk. they could just give shield bash exactly the same thing as the warlord headbutt but then they also need to give him other good offensive tools comparable to warlord.

He's odds on for a nerf. Looks like it might be time for Conq mains to dust off the other 95% of his moveset. You could move over to Cent I guess, if using more than two buttons is too taxing for you.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 04:26 PM
He's odds on for a nerf. Looks like it might be time for Conq mains to dust off the other 95% of his moveset. You could move over to Cent I guess, if using more than two buttons is too taxing for you.
I Main lawbringer, prestige 28, Warden 25,My conq is prestige 10. I have like 5 other classes prestige 20+ . I just dont want conq mains feel like i do with my lawbringer Main, zero offensive options. Warden zerk and conq are s tier duelist now so i dont really see a point nerfing conq atm if they dont nerf Warden and zerk aswell.

DefiledDragon
08-31-2018, 05:09 PM
I Main lawbringer, prestige 28, Warden 25,My conq is prestige 10. I have like 5 other classes prestige 20+ . I just dont want conq mains feel like i do with my lawbringer Main, zero offensive options. Warden zerk and conq are s tier duelist now so i dont really see a point nerfing conq atm if they dont nerf Warden and zerk aswell.

Yeah, I agree with regard to leaving everyone with zero offensive options, but at the same time I don't think that giving characters moves that can't be punished by a sizeable chunk of the roster (or even one other character tbh) is the answer. In all honesty I just don't think whoever is in charge of balance really knows how to achieve it within the current mechanics of the game and I think balance will plague this game until it's, hopefully mechanically improved sequel arrives, or it's supplanted by a superior offering from another publisher. Until then it will remain a casual multiplayer hack n slash with numerous balance issues.

Muitcha-melodia
08-31-2018, 05:18 PM
Dodged Warlord Headbutt nets you a free GB. It is 500ms, just like Conq SB, but his recovery is longer so you get the free GB.

Thatís it. They should put everybody on the same page, even the assassins that can light attack after a dodged opener.

David_gorda
08-31-2018, 05:23 PM
Yeah, I agree with regard to leaving everyone with zero offensive options, but at the same time I don't think that giving characters moves that can't be punished by a sizeable chunk of the roster (or even one other character tbh) is the answer. In all honesty I just don't think whoever is in charge of balance really knows how to achieve it within the current mechanics of the game and I think balance will plague this game until it's, hopefully mechanically improved sequel arrives, or it's supplanted by a superior offering from another publisher. Until then it will remain a casual multiplayer hack n slash with numerous balance issues.
Ubisoft will never be able to make this a competetive Game they dont Know what they are doing. Only Hope for this Game is they replace the current dev team. Yeah this is only for casual fun until a better medivieal fighting Game is released. I play kingdome come now instead Of for honor, really fun single player Game .

DefiledDragon
08-31-2018, 05:26 PM
Ubisoft will never be able to make this a competetive Game they dont Know what they are doing. Only Hope for this Game is they replace the current dev team. Yeah this is only for casual fun until a better medivieal fighting Game is released. I play kingdome come now instead Of for honor, really fun single player Game .

Aye, you're right about the competitive scene and about Kingdom Come. Great 1 v 1 fighting mechanics, particularly in the early game where you really have to defend like your life depends on it.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-31-2018, 06:32 PM
All this arguing and I could almost bet that Conq numbers for last season will be down, and maybe even he won't be the best one in 1v1?

What then?

What would these guys do if PK or Kensei are on the top? Maybe asked for nerf? Doubt it.

Let's wait and see the numbers if you want to use statistics as argument.

Hormly
08-31-2018, 06:46 PM
Dodged Warlord Headbutt nets you a free GB. It is 500ms, just like Conq SB, but his recovery is longer so you get the free GB.

Maybe if you dodge at the same time as the headbutt but not on reaction, I haven't punished a headbutt with a GB since they nerfed my dodge speed.

EvoX.
08-31-2018, 08:13 PM
Just throwing my two cents into the mix.
Just like Shugoki, Conq is pretty hit or miss. He's walking a pretty fine line between OP and a joke. Nerfing his SB would probably leave him in the dust compared to the rest of the characters with something to fall back on other than, well, SB. plus, the stamina consumption of Conq is almost as bad as Shugoki as well, so the huge heavy combos (that can be punished even if used in conjunction with SB if spammed considering his stamina drain) are a non-issue given that faster characters or players with good parry timing can easily punish anything that isn't the SB.

From all the posts on this thread, I agree with this one the most.

Hormly
08-31-2018, 11:04 PM
Nerf shield bash

Buggy.Blaster
08-31-2018, 11:59 PM
yes, nerf that and this post can go away. its obviously op.

ArchDukeInstinct
09-01-2018, 06:03 AM
Opinions are indeed subjective but their validity as objective facts and/or counter arguments can absolutely be valid or invalid.

Vakris, that's just a word salad, dude. All you did was say their validity as something else can be valid. Their validity can be valid? Like come on, you're not even good at making up ********.


As you continue to demonstrate with your ad hominem laced posts; your inability to express an opinion without obfuscating around points you don't want to or cannot debate and outright attacking the other person instead of the argument only works to devalue the worth of whatever you have to say.

Get a load of this guy. He uses one single act of a misspelling being corrected to disregard the other 95% of the post out of hand and then says I'm the one obfuscating. The blatant projection would be sad if it wasn't so funny.


Your focus on correcting spelling and then not actually addressing any of the points made is very telling of your lack of an actual counter argument. It's a tell tale sign of a desire to deviate the conversation into an irrelevant tangent in the hopes of derailing it because you can't use logic to overcome the arguements put forward. As you went on to demonstrate with the rest of your reply. Classic obfuscation tactic for those without the necessary logic or temperament to put across a coherent and relevant arguement.

Now this is REALLY GRASPING AT STRAWS, man. I mentioned it once at the start of my post and never said anything else about it throughout. The only reason you're making a big deal out of it, is so you can pretend to still be a relevant entity in this thread without addressing the other 95% of that post. Oh and by the way, it's spelled "argument".


If you are truly convinced of that then start suggesting some ideas for compensation to his kit instead of insisting that Conq MUST have a busted move in order to be even barely useable. Surely a more well rounded hero that doesn't have to crutch on a single busted move would be infinitely more enjoyable to play.

He'd obviously still be usable*, just not viable competitively.

A good start would be to boost Conqueror's damage. We gotta stop this nonsense with 600ms lights doing less than 15 damage. 600ms lights doing 15 damage is already considered garbage offense for other characters. Just for comparison with other heavies. Warlord's 600ms top light does 17 damage.

Shield uppercut should be beating people who do dodge attacks on reaction to the heavy, yet it often fails. A lot of the time, shield uppercut will land at the same exact time the enemy's dodge attack lands on you but you'll be in the recovery from their hit and get nothing. So just speed that up a bit.

Full block stance should not have an exit delay preventing you from transitioning into another move if you did not wait for the (now) 400ms to elapse and activate the ability to do a flail uppercut. Which is why I often bring up the lack of a standard feint being a real problem.

And the biggest loser of the Conqueror rework by far is the charged heavy. This thing is a joke when it could be the defining part of him. This is an enigma to fix because unless you're cornered it's so easy just to stay at the margins of the attack's range and just back dodge to avoid all the possibilities. One thing I'd do for sure is to allow counter guard breaking once the charge is active (keeping it non counterable during the charging phase if the Conqueror uses it as an option select). The guaranteed guard break was necessary when neutral superior block existed as a way to get Conqueror out of it but now you can cancel the charge if Conqueror has to block a heavy. A range increase would help obviously as you'd need more spacing to be in the sweet spot where you can just dodge back and beat all options. Another idea I have is add some alternative ways to flow into the fully charged state. Perhaps after a heavy attack, you could then hold down the heavy attack button to flow into the charged state much faster than usual while being right up in the target's face already. Currently, your only other options would be to do nothing, do another attack, or do a shield bash mixup which has an almost 0% chance of hitting.

If charged heavy was actually decent, Conqueror could shift from being what is honestly just a harasser at this point to someone who is truly unique in this game and would be a much better match for a heavy that is supposed to deal big damage. Furthermore, this helps out other parts of his kit. For example, superior block and shield uppercut are much more relevant as the latter is your only method of counter attacking while in this state and uppercut is one of your mixup options. Shield bash on the other hand, does nothing to help these moves see more use.


There is a difference in calling someone "crying" or "baby" and other insults, and saying that a Conq Main comes to defend his Character. Are you not a Conq Main? Are you not defending your Main?
If you don't see a difference in this kind of communication - well - I guess a Mod has to decide.

See, it's things like this which prove that you deserve it. You pretend that statement is totally innocent when it overtly alludes that I should be automatically ignored simply because I main the class.


Quote me on where I said it's a good idea to have no offensive options. Don't put words into people's mouths, learn to debate their points instead like an honest human being. You're nearly as bad as ArchDuke with the delusional way you both skirt around the simple truth that Conq has a busted move. That busted move needs to be fixed. Period. There is no debating this truth.

At this point, Vakris has made being purposely obtuse into an art form. Earlier in this thread, he enumerated several of Conqueror's defensive moves/properties and then tried to say that they made Conq's kit one of the best in the game. When I pointed it out that these were all defensive options and how that's clearly a problem for creating a good kit, he completely blows it off as not being a problem at all. But now he's angry because someone infers (correctly) that he's okay with having 0 offensive options. But he is, he thinks only having defensive options with no good offense is good enough for having not only a great kit but "one of the best in the game" as he puts it. How can get upset when it's exactly what he advocates for?

For reference: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1925718-Nerc-Conq-dodge-shield-bash?p=13658771&viewfull=1#post13658771


Deviating the conversation with "but what about this hero. And this hero! And this one!" is irrelevant. This topic is about discussing Conq. If you want to discuss Warden then open up a thread about him and take the debate about him there. You're just dragging this out without disproving any of the arguements made about Conq because you cannot dispute the simple truth that Conq has a busted move.

Balance claims that aren't relative to other character's capabilities are worthless. You clearly already know this of course, since one of your main points earlier in this thread was that nobody else had a bash that had the same recovery time as Conqueror's. Shield bash's recovery time being 700ms would be a non-issue completely if instead of 600ms, everyone's side dodges were normalized to 500ms.

Armosias
09-01-2018, 01:18 PM
In all honesty having a move which guarantees damages BUT cannot be reacted to on reaction is already something bad. Being able to do it from neutral is worse.
I'm not saying that Conq should have 'No offensive options', because being able to punish a SB or HB on reaction doesn't make the move unusable and will not destroy it. The only effect you may face-and I say this for Conq-, is the sudden disapearing of easy SB spam for guaranteed 13 damages. Although such damage is low, it does ABSOLUTELY NOT justify having a move which evades basic mechanics of FH