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View Full Version : Ubi ... if you are reworking Labwinger



Illyrian_King
08-18-2018, 01:36 PM
Please don't lose his heavy aspect.

Every reworked Hero got a lot of faster stuff and soft-feints. It's an easy way to make Heroes more viable, but Lawbee is in weight the heaviest Hero from the whole cast + Wu Lin.

Don't fear considering even unparriable stuff.


I often showed frineds footage of FH and they always laughed at two points:

1) Heroes directly running into a bunch of minion and even slaughtering them without losing health.

2) PK, Shinobi, Shaman parrying Lawbringer, Shugo, Raider.

This is ridiculous indeed.


Make new mechanics for such heavy weapon wielding Heroes.

Now heavy weapons have the missing speed of their category, but by for not the sheer breaking through power.

Please don't pepp these Heroes up, by giving them balerina moves. It is not cool to have to play a heavy with the Assassin rules.

Feint everything and trick around to try getting a light in, instead of relying on the pure mass I hold in my hands. Fully charged unblockables have to be canceled, because 17-year old Shaman with arms thinner then the Poleaxe Shaft can stop outforce them and even take advantage, by pushing against it.

It doesn't look good and it doesn't feel good at all.


From the win-lose-ratios you have shared, you basically said: Block Shove will go and bombs will be lowered

I am fine with lowering the bombs (I am LB main), but taking the Block Shove will take him his very last defensive offense tool. This would need huge compensation, even regarding that Block Shove is not enough to have a chance in Ranked Duell.

He actually needs a lot, and I am afraid about his Rework. PK's and Valk's rework were not really good in my opinion. These Heroes are shallow. PK was shallow and it didn't really change and Valk was not so shallow, but became it.

Also Marching Fire with 4 new Heroes is going to take a lot of (MoCap) ressources, so LB might come short.

Don't make LB shallow, PLEASE.

I-ModernSpartan
08-18-2018, 03:43 PM
I agree with you
But I would like to mention that it is a video game so there is nothing wrong in shaman for example parrying a LB

I suggested to add to his moveset a "valinat braketrough"
https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1915785-Adding-a-quot-Valiant-Braketrough-quot-to-the-LB-s-moveset

And maybe we should be able to do more unblockables (attacks... not like shove)

However
Dont forget that he is a counter attacker and his shove out of block is really useful

Illyrian_King
08-18-2018, 04:03 PM
I think I get where you are coming from, please try to understand my dilema. Now things are partly hilariously far-fetched.

It is a fun killer to take a metall block and bounce off from a little girl with a cute little knife.

Giving him something like Wardens forward dash, would be just another comic-like lightning fast distance covering move. And it also wouldn't make the rest of his kit viable, beause it is slow but not punchy and breaking.
He would just be the next big one-trick-pony.

It would just feed the system, that only speed matters. But the Heroes not yet reworked are also the heaviest from the rooster. They need a different treatment.

Also the role of a counter attacker is the relict of the Defensive Meta.
His Block Shove will also go according to the dev charts.

He can't force his opponent to a reaction, and giving him mix-ups would be Assassin stuff in a heavy hybrid Hero with the highest life bar (if you consider Shugos hyperarmour 25% extra damage).

It simply doesn't go together in a fashonable way. He needs brute force.

I always proposed hyperarmour on heavies, a counter when BEING parried and increased chip damage. Many people really are against this idea, because why should they be punished for reacting so so so good on slow-asss Lawbringer? :D
This makes no sense at all ... why?

Nuxia can even punish on block. Highlander with his 50/50 can punish on a dodge, just to mention a few. They can punish proper reaction that are even more basic then parrying, but LB shouldn't because it would be "broken".

But people have an outrage if somebody could punish a parry.

The reason why I love this idea is, because this way LB could continue being slow and still be viable.

NikolajSlav
08-18-2018, 04:15 PM
Please give Warlord priority,
Warlord has ALOT less range.
Warlord has ALOT less damage
Warlord has LESS health,

In return he gets a slow and risky full guard that has an innconistant punish, and headbutt in place of push.
Lawbringer is even better at ledging than warlord is.

Give the viking the priority, please.

Illyrian_King
08-18-2018, 04:19 PM
Please give Warlord priority,
Warlord has ALOT less range.
Warlord has ALOT less damage
Warlord has LESS health,

In return he gets a slow and risky full guard that has an innconistant punish, and headbutt in place of push.
Lawbringer is even better at ledging than warlord is.

Give the viking the priority, please.


Mate this is very off-topic.

Also Warlord can be used in Ranked. He has tools like his headbutt, his Zone and also his guaranteed fullblock counters.

He needs some stuff but DEFINITELY not before LB with no offensive tool at all.
Every FH pro gamer (also Spliced just to mention one) agrees on this point.

David_gorda
08-18-2018, 04:28 PM
Mate this is very off-topic.

Also Warlord can be used in Ranked. He has tools like his headbutt, his Zone and also his guaranteed fullblock counters.

He needs some stuff but DEFINITELY not before LB with no offensive tool at all.
Every FH pro gamer (also Spliced just to mention one) agrees on this point. yeah i am prestige 25 lawbringer and 22 warlord and warlord is alot better shape then lawbringer even though warlprds kit is boring he still decent in 1vs1.

NikolajSlav
08-18-2018, 04:29 PM
Mate this is very off-topic.

Also Warlord can be used in Ranked. He has tools like his headbutt, his Zone and also his guaranteed fullblock counters.

He needs some stuff but DEFINITELY not before LB with no offensive tool at all.
Every FH pro gamer (also Spliced just to mention one) agrees on this point.

Wrong tho.
Warlord is a joke, and using him in ranked is a meme at best, and suicide at worst. "Guaranteed fullblock counters" Dont exist above rep 10 because people have enaugh skill to guardbreak you out of fullguard - and its guranteed.
Headbutt does 12 damage and risks 30-40 damage, At the same time headbutt cannot be feinted hard or soft, Zone is 500ms heavy and is parriable half the time.

Lawbringer hits like a truck and is one of the best turtles in the game.

Arekonator
08-18-2018, 05:02 PM
Wrong tho.
Warlord is a joke, and using him in ranked is a meme at best, and suicide at worst. "Guaranteed fullblock counters" Dont exist above rep 10 because people have enaugh skill to guardbreak you out of fullguard - and its guranteed.
Headbutt does 12 damage and risks 30-40 damage, At the same time headbutt cannot be feinted hard or soft, Zone is 500ms heavy and is parriable half the time.

Lawbringer hits like a truck and is one of the best turtles in the game.

You are wrong though. Warlord is boring, but leagues way more viable than LB. His crashing charge/GB/zone mixup is very strong and the zone got ridiculous hitbox. 1v1, LB got nothing on Warlord except parry punishes (and its increasingly harder to get a parry in this meta) and block shove (which is negated by any player with two working braincells).
Warlord is the only OG hero who started with "complete" kit. All he needs is imo to dial back on some numbers nerfs that he recieved back then.

LB needs some love, but that being said, making him ignore parries or even get damage from being parried is absolutely mental idea.

TSCDescon
08-18-2018, 09:37 PM
"Warlord is a joke, and using him in ranked is a meme at best, and suicide at worst."

Shugoki says, "Hi."

Illyrian_King
08-18-2018, 09:52 PM
Wrong tho.
Warlord is a joke, and using him in ranked is a meme at best, and suicide at worst. "Guaranteed fullblock counters" Dont exist above rep 10 because people have enaugh skill to guardbreak you out of fullguard - and its guranteed.
Headbutt does 12 damage and risks 30-40 damage, At the same time headbutt cannot be feinted hard or soft, Zone is 500ms heavy and is parriable half the time.

Lawbringer hits like a truck and is one of the best turtles in the game.

Nope.

Warlord is used by pro players in Grandmaster Ranked.
Lawbringer is gone after Platin. Even Spliced wasn't able to go further with LB and that guy is a beast in For Honor.

Lawbringer is totally useless in 1vs1. He can just use the heat of 4vs4, where people gank and don't time to play very defensively and patient.

But the main point is still how to rework LB properly, with keeping him "massive".

Arekonator
08-18-2018, 10:12 PM
But the main point is still how to rework LB properly, with keeping him "massive".

I personally like the idea of having guaranteed damage followup from block at certain points in a chain, like nobu does with her hidden stance heavy, or as nuxia is said to have in some way. Would help with the "i am just gonna sit here and block and there is nothing you can do about it" problem.

NikolajSlav
08-18-2018, 10:59 PM
Nope.

Warlord is used by pro players in Grandmaster Ranked.
Lawbringer is gone after Platin. Even Spliced wasn't able to go further with LB and that guy is a beast in For Honor.

Lawbringer is totally useless in 1vs1. He can just use the heat of 4vs4, where people gank and don't time to play very defensively and patient.

But the main point is still how to rework LB properly, with keeping him "massive".

Correction! He was used until his best counter - warden became god tier.
In season seven he is now the second worst fighter in the game.
Send me one link of a guy playing warlord in season 7 and im re-installing the game (I UN-installed today) RIGHT NOW.

Arekonator
08-18-2018, 11:06 PM
Acording to some (as in money tournament competetive players), WL is S tier, basically by virtue of his crashing charge alone.
I am not saying its absolute word of god, but thats what guys better at the game than we are think. Take from that what you want.

Illyrian_King
08-18-2018, 11:48 PM
I personally like the idea of having guaranteed damage followup from block at certain points in a chain, like nobu does with her hidden stance heavy, or as nuxia is said to have in some way. Would help with the "i am just gonna sit here and block and there is nothing you can do about it" problem.

Would be some idea ... but you need to consider, that you first need to get in your chain for this. Everything gets parried so far. Means being parried as Lawbringer is the main problem itself.

You can fix that in a few ways:

1) Give him Assassin-like fast attacks and mix-ups and solve the problem with speed (I don't propose this kind of solution)
OR
2) You fix the problem on it's roots and make some attacks unparriable or give him a parry-counter. He remains slow but he can effort it.

It would be a whole new and refreshing way of playing. You can apply pressure on your opponent, without causing spam of unblockables or light spam. His attacks are slow and not too uncomfortable in 4vs4. You simply don't parry him, because he can punish it (if we talk about the parry punish and the the unparriable) ... let's say 5-10dmg or leading into a 50/50 like Block Shove or what so ever. Just enough, so people think twice before parrying This combined with hyperarmour on his heavies, so you can't punch him out of his chain all the time. You still can when he uses lights, but it has some risk. And also a bit higher chip damage. 25% instead of the current 18%. Nothing more ... this would even reinforce his role as the parry-master, but now on both sides of the parry.

Balance that out with a sensably higher stamina consume, so he can't exaggerate with his offense and only attack for a limited time, before going back into defense.

This would fill his gaps and make his whole kit viable again, and wouldn't be a pain in 4vs4, where he is strong already.


Correction! He was used until his best counter - warden became god tier.
In season seven he is now the second worst fighter in the game.
Send me one link of a guy playing warlord in season 7 and im re-installing the game (I UN-installed today) RIGHT NOW.

I get that he is your main, and you want to see him reworked first, but please don't try to convince anyone, that Warlord needs it the most.

He simply doesn't.

NikolajSlav
08-19-2018, 12:03 AM
Would be some idea ... but you need to consider, that you first need to get in your chain for this. Everything gets parried so far. Means being parried as Lawbringer is the main problem itself.

You can fix that in a few ways:

1) Give him Assassin-like fast attacks and mix-ups and solve the problem with speed (I don't propose this kind of solution)
OR
2) You fix the problem on it's roots and make some attacks unparriable or give him a parry-counter. He remains slow but he can effort it.

It would be a whole new and refreshing way of playing. You can apply pressure on your opponent, without causing spam of unblockables or light spam. His attacks are slow and not too uncomfortable in 4vs4. You simply don't parry him, because he can punish it (if we talk about the parry punish and the the unparriable) ... let's say 5-10dmg or leading into a 50/50 like Block Shove or what so ever. Just enough, so people think twice before parrying This combined with hyperarmour on his heavies, so you can't punch him out of his chain all the time. You still can when he uses lights, but it has some risk. And also a bit higher chip damage. 25% instead of the current 18%. Nothing more ... this would even reinforce his role as the parry-master, but now on both sides of the parry.

Balance that out with a sensably higher stamina consume, so he can't exaggerate with his offense and only attack for a limited time, before going back into defense.

This would fill his gaps and make his whole kit viable again, and wouldn't be a pain in 4vs4, where he is strong already.



I get that he is your main, and you want to see him reworked first, but please don't try to convince anyone, that Warlord needs it the most.

He simply doesn't.

He can only faint his standart heavies
Nothing else. At all. Not his headbutt not his after fullblock heavy, not his leaps, not his zone nothing.

His parry punish is horrible, and he has STRICTY LESS RANGE AND LESS DAMAGE than Lawbringer.
And after all that. Lawbringer has 20hp more than Lawbringer.

Illyrian_King
08-19-2018, 12:24 AM
He can only faint his standart heavies
Nothing else. At all. Not his headbutt not his after fullblock heavy, not his leaps, not his zone nothing.

His parry punish is horrible, and he has STRICTY LESS RANGE AND LESS DAMAGE than Lawbringer.
And after all that. Lawbringer has 20hp more than Lawbringer.

This damage and range has no use if it gets parried neverhteless.

Warlord has his headbutt (wich acutally works often enough), his Zone and his full-block heavy ... aaannnnddd also his running shield mix-up I forgot to mention earlier.

Lawbringer has literally nothing.

Please don't talk to me about this before watching this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR479qd__n0

Then we can talk again, but not in this thread, because it is off-topic.

NikolajSlav
08-19-2018, 12:29 AM
This damage and range has no use if it gets parried neverhteless.

Warlord has his headbutt (wich acutally works often enough), his Zone and his full-block heavy ... aaannnnddd also his running shield mix-up I forgot to mention earlier.

Lawbringer has literally nothing.

Please don't talk to me about this before watching this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR479qd__n0

Then we can talk again, but not in this thread, because it is off-topic.

Headbutt does 12 damage risking 30-40 damage back. Or a ledge.
Zone get parried alot at my level and full block heavy is a "please guard break me" move, because its slow and unrewarding.

Lord_Cherubi
08-19-2018, 08:29 AM
"Warlord is a joke, and using him in ranked is a meme at best, and suicide at worst."

Shugoki says, "Hi."

I recently tried him out in Brawls and Duels and i found out that he's totally doable but MY GOD it's boring for both me and my opponent because of Shugo's ridiculously limited kit.

NHLGoldenKnight
08-19-2018, 09:14 AM
Lawbringer needs a good opener that is not his shove. And his zone attack leaves much to be desired considered his weapon. These two things and he is golden.

Also, I am all of nerfing his bombs but why not nerf Shaman bite? At least bombs should be dangerous more than a bite from f******* goth midget. I think her bite is second most powerful move in the game? But bombs are the problem? Yeah, make them weaker than Shamans nailtrap, that's what game needs lol

Invisih0le
08-19-2018, 10:57 AM
It's sad that the heaviest champ with the slowest guard change and painfully easy to parry attacks is at this state. I love his style, but the game having no armor values, not taking into account relative weapon strengths and relative force ultimately sings the same song as pretty much all games out there- glass cannons and assassins are the spoiled child of gaming. I'd love to see the Lawdaddy get actual strength as an unparriable, unblockable attack that forces a dodge and is easy to pull off, while being very strong. That would be a change in the right direction, but as is- he's useless against anyone with a basic reflex. I say this as a noob-tier casual player that loves the character, but find him incredibly easy to play against and hard to do as.

Illyrian_King
08-19-2018, 10:58 AM
Lawbringer needs a good opener that is not his shove. And his zone attack leaves much to be desired considered his weapon. These two things and he is golden.

Also, I am all of nerfing his bombs but why not nerf Shaman bite? At least bombs should be dangerous more than a bite from f******* goth midget. I think her bite is second most powerful move in the game? But bombs are the problem? Yeah, make them weaker than Shamans nailtrap, that's what game needs lol

Well even if he got a good opener and Zone, the rest of his kit would still be flawed. People would abuse the heck out a new good opener and zone, and we got another 2-trick-pony.

His whole kit is slow, but not heavy. All his standard attacks can by thrown in the trash basket. His Shove und Long Arm are just usable in 4vs4. His Block Shove will be gone. He still has his impale, but that thing just works in 4vs4.

He simply doesn't feel the way he looks at all.

The problem is how the heavy classes itself get treaten. They are slow, but not heavy. Look at the heaviest Heroes like Shugoki, Lawbringer, Raider, Highlander. They throw attacks that simply CAN'T be parried without breaking both hands.
The truth is, they feint more then every Assassin, because that cute littlle gurl with a fragile hatchet could be stronger then them.

Highlander is balanced with a lot of unblockables and hyperarmour, but imagine every heavy Hero had such tools. There needs to be new ways of how to fix Heavies.